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Offline Ancilla_Indigna

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Tridentine Mass Go-ers in Baltimore
« on: February 25, 2007, 09:19:12 PM »
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  • Enthusiastic Catholics clamor for Mass of past
    Interest grows for rare 16th-century service
    By Liz F. Kay
    Sun reporter
    Originally published February 25, 2007
    Dozens of people gather every Sunday morning in the Gothic sanctuary of St. Alphonsus Roman Catholic Church to pray for the future of a tradition that's deeply rooted in the past.

    Before the Latin prayers begin, they seek God's intercession for the future of the Tridentine Mass - a form of liturgy established in the 16th century but now celebrated only in churches with special permission.



     
     
    If the speculation around the Vatican is right, their prayers might be answered. Rumors have swirled for months that Pope Benedict XVI will formally grant permission to all Catholic churches to perform what's commonly - though incorrectly - known as the Latin Mass.

    For Catholics who are dedicated to the handful of local services, such a declaration would be about time. "I don't see the purpose in outlawing a Mass," says Elise Phair, 21, who has attended the Tridentine service at the church on Saratoga Street for about a decade.

    The move - if it happens - is seen as a way of reaching out to traditionalists who were alienated after the Second Vatican Council produced a new missal, or prayer book, in the late 1960s that streamlined the Mass.

    "Identifying with the Tridentine Mass is a kind of a mild form of protest," says Mathew N. Schmalz, a professor of religious studies at the College of the Holy Cross. "A lot of it has to do with a more aggressive assertion of Catholic identity and a feeling that that has been lost."

    During Vatican II, the leaders of the council established what is known as the novus ordo - new order in Latin - which is followed in the vast majority of Catholic churches today.

    Aesthetic differences between the two services are obvious. The Tridentine Mass, which uses a 1962 missal, is mostly spoken in Latin, with some Greek. The priest faces the tabernacle housing the Eucharist, with his back to the congregation. Much of the Mass is silent, even the High Masses every other Sunday, which feature choirs.

    To be sure, the nearby Basilica of the Assumption does offer a Sunday Mass in Latin - but it's merely a translation of the novus ordo, not the full Tridentine Mass.

    While the overall structure of both Masses is the same, the Novus Ordo simplifies the service by reducing the number of prayers and ceremonial actions, says Joanne M. Pierce, an associate professor of religious studies at Holy Cross who researches medieval liturgy. The Tridentine rite even specifies the orientation of the priest's thumbs as he elevates the Eucharist during the liturgy.

    Parishioners can follow along in a missal, perhaps with a Latin translation, recite the rosary, or engage in their own private devotions during the Tridentine Mass. By contrast, in the Novus Ordo, the congregation participates through responses and reading.

    Although the council decrees did not abolish the Tridentine Mass, Pierce says there may have been fear that some Catholics would consider the Tridentine rite as the only true Mass.

    The church began giving indults, or special permission, to some parishes to celebrate the Tridentine rite in 1984. Four years later, Pope John Paul II issued a motu proprio allowing more churches to use that version "out of respect ... for the feelings of all those who are attached to the Latin liturgical tradition."

    The Catholic Church often faces criticism from those who oppose its conservative views on topics such as abortion and birth control, but some feel it is not conservative enough. Pope John Paul II's 1988 decree began by excommunicating some members of schismatic communities that supported the Tridentine rite.

    "It all plays out in internal church politics. The pope is being caught between a rock and a hard place. Trying to balance all these sensibilities is very difficult," Schmalz says.

    For John Ambs, 42, the Tridentine Mass made his Catholic faith come alive.

    As a teenage altar boy in the Diocese of Scranton in Pennsylvania, he couldn't understand the stories he read of saints crawling on their hands and knees to get to Mass. Then his father gave him a missal from the old rite, and said, "The Mass you know today wasn't always this way," Ambs recalls.

    "As soon as I got my license, I and some other like-minded young Catholics ... drove as far as it took to go to an underground Mass, just to see what it was like," he says.

    Ambs went on to write the petition to allow for the Tridentine Mass in Washington, then contacted Cardinal William H. Keeler in Baltimore. He became the recording secretary for the Gregorian Society of Baltimore, a lay organization that supports the service.

    Ambs later introduced the woman who became his wife, Lucy, to the service. They had to secure special permission in 1996 to be the Archdiocese Of Baltimore's first couple married under the Tridentine rite since Vatican II. Now the Westminster residents bring their three children to worship at St. Alphonsus. Some women, like Lucy Ambs, cover their heads with a mantilla, or lace scarf.Even if the pope were to make a declaration tomorrow, few Catholic churches are likely to immediately start offering the Mass because few priests are still trained in the Tridentine rite. Monsignor Arthur W. Bastress, the pastor of St. Alphonsus, was ordained in 1951 and celebrated Tridentine Mass for more than a decade.

    The services draw young families like the Ambs. Most of the baptisms he performs are from the Tridentine rite, Bastress says.


     
     
     
    Young people who never experienced the Mass before Vatican II are also drawn to the spirituality of the service. Phair, a lifelong parishioner of St. Alphonsus, studies modern languages at University of Maryland, Baltimore County and uses a Latin-French missal during the service.

    She describes it as an "overwhelming spiritual experience, because it's so reverent."

    "There's another level there that I don't find at other Masses," Phair says.

    Bastress says the church almost operates like three separate parishes: the English-speaking community, those who come to Lithuanian services at 8:30 a.m., and the Tridentine followers at 11:30 a.m. The latter is the largest service with up to 175 attendees each Sunday, many of whom travel from as far away as Virginia or Pennsylvania to attend.

    When the Diocese of hαɾɾιsburg started offering a Tridentine Mass several years ago, it drew some regular attendees from St. Alphonsus.

    "They wouldn't come all that distance just for a social gathering," says Timonium resident Rita K. Dent, president of the Gregorian Society. "It's the beauty and the reverence and of course the sacrifice. The Novus Ordo contains all that, but I think it's much more enhanced in the Latin."

    The possibility of having more options promotes the buzz about Benedict's potential decision. "People are just feeding the rumors because they want it to happen," says Lucy Ambs. "It's not that we're saying everybody's going to change. The beauty of it is, more people are going to know it's available."

    Her husband John says he prays for this intention daily.

    "I think if the Mass is freed, it'll be a new springtime for the church," he said.

    liz.kay@baltsun.com
     

    "I would give my life for a single ceremony of the Church."  -- St. Teresa of Avila, Doctor of the Church


    Offline Kephapaulos

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    « Reply #1 on: February 25, 2007, 10:22:35 PM »
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  • I would like to clarify that the "Tridentine" Mass, or really the Traditional Latin Mass, is NOT a 16th century service. It is simply the Mass that has been used by the Roman church from the beginning in its most primitive form. It was canonized by St. Pius V in the 16th century though.

    EDIT: Also, no permission whatsoever is needed for a priest to celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass that has been celebrated by priests since the days of St. Peter himself when it was in its primitive form. It was never forbidden and can never be. The Novus Ordo Missae, on the other hand, is a fabrication and was not properly implemented. The modernist establishment had it slither into practice pretty much.
    "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis; sed nomini tuo da gloriam..." (Ps. 113:9)


    Offline CampeadorShin

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    « Reply #2 on: February 26, 2007, 05:22:54 PM »
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  • Email her kepha.  I'm sure she'd apprechiate more correct information.
    Catholic warriors:
    http://www.angelusonline.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=490&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
    My older avatar of Guy Fawkes that caused so much arguing, made by peters_student:
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    Offline gilbertgea

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    « Reply #3 on: February 27, 2007, 02:48:08 PM »
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  • I've been to St. Alphonsus.  It is, franky, beautiful and the Mass is, as far as I can tell, picture-perfect.  However, I think they operate under the so-called 'Indult' when, of course, none is necessary.

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #4 on: March 12, 2007, 09:50:54 PM »
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  • "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline Kephapaulos

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    « Reply #5 on: March 13, 2007, 01:06:29 AM »
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  • Now, Gladius, how do you explain a commission of nine cardinals in the 1980s that determined that the Traditional Latin Mass was never suppressed? One cardinal of which was Pope Benedict XVI, whom I know you would not hold to be the Pope. Nonetheless, I see that Paul VI did use the same terms in Missale Romanum as in Quo Primum, but that does not take away from the fact that the Pauline rite is a fabrication and is not the Roman Mass. Or, if one could even argue it is the Roman Mass, it is a very mutilated one. For one thing, it seems that the promulgation pertains moreso to the changing of the Canon, but it also seems as if Paul VI would be then trying to imitate what St. Pius V did in promulgating the Roman Mass in Quo Primum. What would make the promulgation of the Pauline rite illegal though would be the mere fact that it was not an organic development of the Roman rite and again, was a fabrication, a liturgy put together really by a liturgical commission. Also, it is absurd to say that a restoration of the Missal is taking place, because obviously, the New Mass is definitely no restoration of the Roman Mass, from what any sane Catholic could tell. That would then render what Paul VI did as indeed illicit according to the principle that a pope must stay faithful in passing on "the received and approved rites." Then again, Gladius, you could in that case argue and conclude from what you posted above that Paul VI was then not a true pope, but that would simply take us to the whole debate over sedevacantism in general.

    Of course, what you present here and the fact that you present it, Gladius, really only suggest how sedevacantism is only different from "neo-Catholicism" in the respects of believing if there is a pope now, of correct Catholic doctrine, and of the use of the traditional Roman rite, but other than that there is not much difference. The concept of obedience seems to be the same, where one can be excessive in obeying a superior.
    "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis; sed nomini tuo da gloriam..." (Ps. 113:9)

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #6 on: March 14, 2007, 10:03:11 PM »
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  • Quote from: Kephapaulos
    Now, Gladius, how do you explain a commission of nine cardinals in the 1980s that determined that the Traditional Latin Mass was never suppressed?


    Did the one you claim was a supreme lawgiver (Paul VI), making use of the correct and normative legal terms, promulgate a law or not?  It would seem so.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Kephapaulos

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    « Reply #7 on: March 15, 2007, 01:07:53 AM »
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  • Quote from: gladius_veritatis
    Quote from: Kephapaulos
    Now, Gladius, how do you explain a commission of nine cardinals in the 1980s that determined that the Traditional Latin Mass was never suppressed?


    Did the one you claim was a supreme lawgiver (Paul VI), making use of the correct and normative legal terms, promulgate a law or not?  It would seem so.


    Yes, he did promulgate a law, but unlawfully since the Roman Mass can never be forbidden and replaced by another rite its place, must less should that other rite be one that does harm to the faithful.  Not every pope has been a saint (before any sedevacantist argument comes up), and not every pope has been doctrinally precise or correct. Also, not every pope has made prudent disciplinary decisions for the Church.
    "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis; sed nomini tuo da gloriam..." (Ps. 113:9)


    Offline Kephapaulos

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    « Reply #8 on: March 15, 2007, 01:08:26 AM »
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  • Quote from: gladius_veritatis
    Quote from: Kephapaulos
    Now, Gladius, how do you explain a commission of nine cardinals in the 1980s that determined that the Traditional Latin Mass was never suppressed?


    Did the one you claim was a supreme lawgiver (Paul VI), making use of the correct and normative legal terms, promulgate a law or not?  It would seem so.


    Yes, he did promulgate a law, but unlawfully since the Roman Mass can never be forbidden and replaced by another rite its place, must less should that other rite be one that does harm to the faithful.  Not every pope has been a saint (before if any sedevacantist arguments come up), and not every pope has been doctrinally precise or correct. Also, not every pope has made prudent disciplinary decisions for the Church.
    "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis; sed nomini tuo da gloriam..." (Ps. 113:9)

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #9 on: March 15, 2007, 07:11:38 PM »
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  • Holy Church is infallible in her doctrine, worship, and discipline.  Her doctrine cannot be false, her worship cannot be harmful, nor can her disciplines.

    If Paul VI was the supreme lawgiver, he cannot be bound by one of his predecessors.  If the rite is harmful - and it is - it either was not actually promulgated (which it clearly was), or it did not come from Holy Church.

    Btw, no Pope, acting as Pope, has erred in doctrine - for this is what the Holy Ghost's protection is all about.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Kephapaulos

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    « Reply #10 on: March 15, 2007, 11:55:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: gladius_veritatis
    Holy Church is infallible in her doctrine, worship, and discipline.  Her doctrine cannot be false, her worship cannot be harmful, nor can her disciplines.


    Yes, I know that, but the text of the Mass is not something of mere discipline. It is of course worship, but it entails doctrine as well since the Mass embodies all of Catholic doctrine.

    Quote from: gladius_veritatis
    If Paul VI was the supreme lawgiver, he cannot be bound by one of his predecessors.  If the rite is harmful - and it is - it either was not actually promulgated (which it clearly was), or it did not come from Holy Church.


    In the case of Paul VI, he did not issue something that would come from the Church. He ended up promulgating a harmful rite, not Holy Mother Church. He acted other than how Holy Mother Church would truly act.

    Quote from: gladius_veritatis
    Btw, no Pope, acting as Pope, has erred in doctrine - for this is what the Holy Ghost's protection is all about.


    No pope has ever erred in doctrine in what manner? How do you explain John XXII's error concerning the beatic vision during his pontificate (even though I am aware he renounced it before he died)? What about Adrian VI's quote saying that a Pope can be a heretic? I am not sure about the case of Pope Liberius. I had gathered recently though that Honorius I had simply been condemned for not dealing well the Monophysite heresy and not being a heretic, although I am not totally sure on that issue either. Here's another question though: how can the sedevacantist argument even explain away what Vatican I says with an anathema attached concering the perpetual succesors of St. Peter?:

    Therefore,
    if anyone says that
    it is not by the institution of Christ the lord himself (that is to say, by divine law) that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole church; or that
    the Roman pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy:
    let him be anathema.
    (Vatican I, Session 4, Chapter 2, No. 5, July 18, 1870)
    "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis; sed nomini tuo da gloriam..." (Ps. 113:9)


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #11 on: March 16, 2007, 12:10:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: Kephapaulos
    No pope has ever erred in doctrine in what manner?


    Please READ my post before responding, K.p.  I said "no Pope, acting as Pope..."

    Quote
    How do you explain John XXII's error concerning the beatic vision during his pontificate (even though I am aware he renounced it before he died)?


    I have covered this multiple times, and in places that you should have already read the explanation, but...

    He was giving a series of sermons - and therefore NOT acting as Pope, i.e. in an official way connected to his office as Christ's Vicar.  The subject matter had not been defined at that stage.

    I shall deal with the other stuff later, but most of it is so much repetitive, intentionally misconstrued blarney - already dealt with (more than once) at fisheaters, etc.  I can give you the link to the sedevac folder over there if you want.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Quo Vadis Petre

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    « Reply #12 on: March 16, 2007, 12:20:21 PM »
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  • Then why didn't Pope Paul VI appeal to Missale Romanum for the suppression of the traditional Roman Rite, but a later docuмent issued by the Congregation of the Faith (someone correct me if I have this wrong)? You and Fr. Cekada may say that this encyclical suppressed the TLM, but his actions clearly indicate contrariwise.
    "In our time more than ever before, the greatest asset of the evil-disposed is the cowardice and weakness of good men, and all the vigour of Satan's reign is due to the easy-going weakness of Catholics." -St. Pius X

    "If the Church were not divine, this

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #13 on: March 16, 2007, 01:07:37 PM »
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  • May I trouble you to provide an actual quote, QVP?  I am unsure to what you are referring, and therefore cannot even begin to answer.  Thank you in advance.  God speed to all, and an early wish for a happy St. Patrick's day.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Quo Vadis Petre

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    « Reply #14 on: March 16, 2007, 01:37:54 PM »
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  • Quote from: gladius_veritatis
    May I trouble you to provide an actual quote, QVP?  I am unsure to what you are referring, and therefore cannot even begin to answer.  Thank you in advance.  God speed to all, and an early wish for a happy St. Patrick's day.


    Pope Paul VI, Consistory Allocution of 24 May 1976:

    The adoption of the Ordo Missae is certainly not left to the free choice of priests or faithful. The Instruction of 14 June 1971 has provided, with the authorization of the Ordinary, for the celebration of the Mass in the old form only by aged and infirm priests, who offer the divine sacrifice sine populo.

    _____________

    Pope Paul VI used an instruction from the Congregation for Divine Worship, not his own Apostolic Consitution, to impose the New Mass. Not even the most fervent apologist for the New Mass has said Missale Romanum clearly and explicitly forbade the TLM.
    "In our time more than ever before, the greatest asset of the evil-disposed is the cowardice and weakness of good men, and all the vigour of Satan's reign is due to the easy-going weakness of Catholics." -St. Pius X

    "If the Church were not divine, this