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Author Topic: Trads raising feminist daughters  (Read 17210 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: Trads raising feminist daughters
« Reply #90 on: July 05, 2018, 01:15:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on July 05, 2018, 01:01:26 PM
    I have been wondering about this as well. Surely not all women are called to motherhood. 
    Obviously not all women are called to biological motherhood since some married women, through no fault of their own, are infertile.  All women, however, are called to spiritual motherhood.  There should be an outlet for her nurturing instincts in every woman's life, no matter what her state of life.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Trads raising feminist daughters
    « Reply #91 on: July 05, 2018, 01:23:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Geremia on July 05, 2018, 12:42:31 PM
    If you think all women are called to biological motherhood, you're Lutheran.
    Smedley neither said nor implied that all women are called to biological motherhood.

    He said:
    Quote from: Smedley Butler on July 03, 2018, 08:22:43 AM
    Worse, if you think your daughter wanting to go be a scientist and not have kids is okay, YOU ARE A FEMINIST.

    It is clear enough from all his posts on the topic that there is nothing unCatholic in his views on women.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: virginity a vocation
    « Reply #92 on: July 05, 2018, 01:31:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Geremia on July 05, 2018, 01:10:54 PM
    Yes, virginity is a vocation.

    Today, a virgin can become a consecrated virgin as well, by making a public vow of virginity:
    In 1927 the Holy See forbade public vows of virginity apart from entering a religious institute (AAS 19 (1927) 138), but the '83 Code reinstated it (Can. 604 on the "order of virgins"); the privilege was granted in other eras of Church history, too.
    cf. The Mystery of Love for the Single by Fr. Unger, O.F.M. Cap. (1958) ch. 5 and this blog by a consecrated virgin.

    Thanks for the above info. Very informative. I wonder why the Holy See forbade public vows of virginity apart from a religious institute in 1927. Maybe there were a few problems with women in those days making public vows.

    The blog you linked to shows how the "order of virgins" works under the new code. Of course the consecration must be done by the local diocesan bishop, which would pose a problem for trads, but I think that having this option for women in the conciliar church is a good one. Trads, perhaps, could join a third order?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Trads raising feminist daughters
    « Reply #93 on: July 05, 2018, 01:44:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on July 05, 2018, 01:23:03 PM
    Smedley neither said nor implied that all women are called to biological motherhood.
    He said there is something wrong with a woman not desiring biological children.
    Also, is there any opposition between being a scientist and being a spiritual mother? There have been many nun scientists and mathematicians throughout Church history.
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    Offline jen51

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    Re: Trads raising feminist daughters
    « Reply #94 on: July 05, 2018, 01:57:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on July 05, 2018, 12:50:18 PM
    Yes, this is my experience of university too.  It was very bad for me spiritually.
    Even when I had sincerely converted, I held on to many principles that I was indoctrinated with in college- both spiritual and political. Not because i was trying to be obstinate, but because I really didn't know any better. I was very gullible.  One would be a fool to think that they could brush all of that off right away just because they converted, or just because they are a cradle Catholic. There is SO MUCH to undo, to learn, and to practice. I think it will take takes years, if not a lifetime. I am so thankful for my husbands guidance in spiritual and theological matters.

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    Religion clean and undefiled before God and the Father, is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their tribulation: and to keep one's self unspotted from this world.
    ~James 1:27

    Offline Geremia

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    Re: virginity a vocation
    « Reply #95 on: July 05, 2018, 02:00:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on July 05, 2018, 01:31:49 PM
    Thanks for the above info. Very informative. I wonder why the Holy See forbade public vows of virginity apart from a religious institute in 1927.
    No explanation was given, as it was a response to a dubia:
    Quote
    « An expediat concedere facultatem dandi benedictionem et consecrationem Virginum mulieribus in saeculo viventibus »
    responderunt: « Negative et nihil innovetur ».

    « Whether it is expedient [for the pope] to give [bishops] the faculty to bless and consecrate virgins living in the world »
    they [the fathers of the Sacred Congregation of Religious who voted] responded: « Negative and no changes »
    It seems it was because nonnulli locorum Antistites petiissent facultatem [several bishops in various places requested the faculty]; viz., it seems they were getting too many requests that they had to put a temporary hold on it.

    See also, from the Pontificale Romanum:
    De Benedictione et Consecratione Virginum
    (The Liturgy of the Consecration of Virgins according to the Roman Pontifical)
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Trads raising feminist daughters
    « Reply #96 on: July 05, 2018, 02:01:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: Geremia on July 05, 2018, 01:44:45 PM
    He said there is something wrong with a woman not desiring biological children.
    Earlier in the thread he said, 
    Quote from: Smedley Butler on July 03, 2018, 01:10:51 PM
    I'm not talking about Trads teaching about relgious vocations.
    I'm talking about Trads ENCOURAGING college/job over motherhood...
    He was obviously talking about the majority of women, i.e. those who do not have religious vocations.  When such women want to avoid motherhood that is something wrong and almost certainly a sign of feminist influence, just as he says.

    It was unreasonable to call him a Lutheran.

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    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Trads raising feminist daughters
    « Reply #97 on: July 05, 2018, 02:04:11 PM »
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    • Interesting rules for female teachers in 1914. 

    Notice the importance of modesty and chastity.

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    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Trads raising feminist daughters
    « Reply #98 on: July 05, 2018, 02:08:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: jen51 on July 05, 2018, 01:57:03 PM
    Even when I had sincerely converted, I held on to many principles that I was indoctrinated with in college- both spiritual and political. Not because i was trying to be obstinate, but because I really didn't know any better. I was very gullible.  One would be a fool to think that they could brush all of that off right away just because they converted, or just because they are a cradle Catholic. There is SO MUCH to undo, to learn, and to practice. I think it will take takes years, if not a lifetime. I am so thankful for my husbands guidance in spiritual and theological matters.
    :applause:
    Yes, that's it exactly.  It is extremely difficult to uproot feminism when it invades our souls.  It is imprudent to the point of insanity to deliberately expose oneself to it, if there are any other alternatives.

    I agree that the love and guidance of a good man is probably the most effective cure.  Any of us blessed with such a husband should be thanking God daily for His grace and mercy.
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: Trads raising feminist daughters
    « Reply #99 on: July 05, 2018, 02:19:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Geremia on July 05, 2018, 01:44:45 PM
    He said there is something wrong with a woman not desiring biological children.
    Also, is there any opposition between being a scientist and being a spiritual mother? There have been many nun scientists and mathematicians throughout Church history.
    There are certainly Catholic women who go on to become scientists and mathematicians and spiritual motherhood for them would be desirable.  What happens with most women who go down the career path is that they struggle with the notion of contraception or limiting children for the sake of their career.  Or worse, sending their children off to a babysitter in order to maintain their career.  If a woman is dedicated to remaining single or taking vows, she could certainly attempt a career and do well, even spiritually, given her decision is a prayerful one.  A Catholic woman should understand what she's getting herself into before she takes any path.  And sadly, many haven't a clue because their parents dropped the ball when it came to educating them.  It seems to me that a Catholic school for young women would be the ideal.  Schooling girls like boys leads to a lot of dead ends for the girl who finds herself a fish out of water no matter what she chooses to do. Teaching Catholic girls how to raise children, run a home, develop a talent, balance a budget, change a toilet, farm animals and food, be a good wife and mother...was a dream of mine, but with the size family I have, my dream probably won't be realized for others, just for my own girls.       
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Trads raising feminist daughters
    « Reply #100 on: July 05, 2018, 02:23:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cantarella on July 05, 2018, 02:04:11 PM
    Interesting rules for female teachers in 1914.

    Notice the importance of modesty and chastity.




    Those are excellent rules. Especially the ones for modesty. They seem designed mainly to not cause scandal, or allow the teacher to fall into sin, in which case they are quite prudent. I can imagine what teachers nowadays would think of them. It would seem that ice cream parlors in those days were a bit of a problem.  :)

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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Geremia

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    Re: virginity a vocation
    « Reply #101 on: July 05, 2018, 02:34:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on July 05, 2018, 01:31:49 PM
    Trads, perhaps, could join a third order?
    Third orders don't take vows, let alone vows of perfect continence/virginity.

    Traditional bishops have certainly performed the De Benedictione et Consecratione Virginum in recent times, as nuns can become consecrated virgins, too.

    Ask a bishop.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: virginity a vocation
    « Reply #102 on: July 05, 2018, 02:49:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Geremia on July 05, 2018, 02:34:12 PM
    Third orders don't take vows, let alone vows of perfect continence/virginity.

    Traditional bishops have certainly performed the De Benedictione et Consecratione Virginum in recent times, as nuns can become consecrated virgins, too.

    Ask a bishop.

    Well, I was thinking of various options for a young woman who does not feel a calling either to marry or to the religious life. The options don't necessarily have to include vows. Hypothetically, she could just live at home with a family member. That's probably what's sometimes done in trad families, I suppose.
    I don't think that women should live on their own, especially young women. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Trads raising feminist daughters
    « Reply #103 on: July 05, 2018, 03:24:07 PM »
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    • This thread is not about rare exceptions.

    This thread is not about nuns.


    This thread is about the disconnect between the faith and what it teaches as the model for society, and the faithful who are not following the model.



    Feminism is a deadly cancer. It's model for society has DESTROYED society. 

    Perhaps the priests need to preach about the danger of feminism more often because it seems most of the women here want to talk about exceptions, rather than address the problem. 

    It is not natural for a girl to be raised in the faith and then reject the model of the Holy Family to become a "scientist." That's not Lutheran, it just goes against NATURE for the VAST MAJORITY of women.

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    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Trads raising feminist daughters
    « Reply #104 on: July 05, 2018, 03:28:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on July 05, 2018, 02:01:37 PM
    Earlier in the thread he said, He was obviously talking about the majority of women, i.e. those who do not have religious vocations.  When such women want to avoid motherhood that is something wrong and almost certainly a sign of feminist influence, just as he says.

    It was unreasonable to call him a Lutheran.
    Thank you,  Jaynek! 
    On this we agree...
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