If you spent the last 20 years in the home fulfilling God's female role raising your children and they reject motherhood, you have failed!.
I’m acknowledging that most women have moved so far from their natural role they need to do some serious deep thinking before bringing a baby into their own problems..
The VAST MAJORITY of Trads raise their girls in a stay-home mom setup with many siblings and a Catholic education..
If at the end of that your daughter rejects motherhood to work, you have FAILED.
And worse, if you think that is an "acceptible" outcome, YOU ARE A FEMINIST.
.You have missed the point.
I beg to differ.
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Was it God's fault that Eve chose to listen to the serpent?
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We have a fallen nature and a free will. There comes a point where the blame is no longer on the parents, but on the young adults themselves.
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You have missed the point..
Yes a child has free will.
The problem is that the mothers are not "subtly influenced" they are so indoctrinated by the WORLD that they think it's OKAY.
It's not okay.
Raising more feminists is not okay.
You should be asking yourself why you are okay with your daughter growing up to be a barren worker bee.
.Oh, but they DO know better.
That is not what you said:
"If you spent the last 20 years in the home fulfilling God's female role raising your children and they reject motherhood, you have failed!"
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I do not believe traditional mothers INTEND to rear feminists. I believe they don't know better and don't have a good leader for a husband.
What was the point of your sacrifice of years of motherhood if your children do not follow your example of it?.
My girls are taught that motherhood is the highest "job."
They are not taught to go
get an "important" job in the world.
Oh, but they DO know better..
They CANNOT claim they "didn't know better, "
You CANNOT have sat in the pews of TRAD Churches for 20 years and say you "don't know" what God's role is for women.
It ain't a physicist.
.I am speaking of mothers who HAVE sat in the pews for 20 years.
True. But not all traditional mothers have sat in the pews for 20 years.
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Traditional mothers also learn in the pews that the husband is the head of the household. How is it that the mother has failed if the husband allows the daughter to stray while under his care?
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I still hold that most traditional mothers don't INTEND to rear feminists.
I am speaking of mothers who HAVE sat in the pews for 20 years.Sorry. Not enough coffee yet...
Mothers whose parents were the FIRST Trads.
If at the end of that your daughter rejects motherhood to work, you have FAILED.No, not necessarily. I've known many good, non-feminist families whose children rebelled. It's a sign of the times.
You CANNOT have sat in the pews of TRAD Churches for 20 years and say you "don't know" what God's role is for women.This is true.
Sorry. Not enough coffee yet...If your daughters own pants and shorts snd are wearing them when they are not at Mass or their Trad school, then you are NOT doing your best.
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I still hold that Traditional mothers also learn in the pews that the husband is the head of the household. How is it that the mother has failed if the husband allows the daughter to stray while under his care?
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most traditional mothers don't INTEND to rear feminists, but is it their fault if they have done their best.
No, not necessarily. I've known many good, non-feminist families whose children rebelled. It's a sign of the times.A sure fire way to get one's daughter to embrace feminism is to raise her thinking that there is something other than motherhood or the celibate life out there for her. The only way to get the grace from God to destroy feminism is to raise daughters with modesty and true feminine integrity. If she goes off the deep end, then that's on her. However, not even trad mothers and fathers are bothering anymore and most have embraced feminism to one degree or another.
This is true.
The answer is that some women embrace feminism in spite of good nurturing. Some embrace Traditionalism in spite of a feminist/modernist upbringing. And there is the 'middle' where quasi-trads are feminized themselves and raise children who embrace feminism. ...It's a war zone out there...
Smedly is on to something...as shocking and unexpected as it sounds, there are indeed bona-fide feminists in the midst of Traditional Catholic enclavesThis topic is long overdue.
.I’m talking before marriage, before engaging in marriage activities. Not prevention during. If the women are behaving this way before, then they aren’t mature enough for marriage/babies.
It is not their choice to make. It is God's.
One thing that it is often overlooked is that a girl not only should aspire to be good mother; but also a good wife. She needs to learn how to build a meaningful, long-life relationship with the father of her children; and also, the other men of her life. This knowledge does not come naturally, so it needs to be taught.Here here.
The least thing you want is your daughter to end up being a single mother. It is crucial therefore, that she learns how to discern the good men; be able to marry one and build a stable marriage.
The vocation of motherhood necessarily includes that of high - quality wifehood. ,
I’m talking before marriage, before engaging in marriage activities. Not prevention during. If the women are behaving this way before, then they aren’t mature enough for marriage/babies.The women who aren't mature enough for marriage/babies are the ones who were not raised with a proper view of femininity, nor that phenomenal vocation exclusive to women. But that doesn't mean they can't learn. This has everything to do with Christ's missionary mandate and Catholics should always reflect these truths in their beliefs and conversation.
The suggestion that women might be better off not being a mother is a sure sign feminism is ingrained. What is to become of a woman who seems "unfit" to be a mother? She becomes worldly, and unless she takes some kind of vow of celibacy she will go on to contracept and/or abort, just to protect her place in the world. Trads should never advocate women in the workplace (except in necessity). It's unnatural and contrary to wisdom in every way. It is divisive for other women too, because their men have to endure the allure of women in the workplace. It also risks salvation for the woman who is too selfish to overcome personal obstacles in order to be a good mother.You make some rather harsh and rash judgments about women. I've never taken a vow of celibacy, have a university education, live on my own as single in the world and have maintained my purity. I am now 60 years of age and have been on my own since age 18. It's not how I expected my life to turn out, but by God's grace, here I am. My main workplace has no men to be allured. I work for a non-profit home, teaching special needs children, ages 5-8. Dare I say men are not suited for this type of work? In the distant past, one would find nuns doing such work. The other reason there are no men is because the pay is too low to make a living wage. All of my work colleagues are either married, living with their parents. Unlike the nuns of old, I don't get to spend my nonworking time in community where other needs are met by others, cooking, food, shelter, clothing, mass, sacraments, social and recreational...To make ends meet, I moonlight by housecleanig, tutoring, mending, other jobs as I find.
Trad schools are encouraging college for girls.My youngest daughter is going to a small Catholic college. (The older two are already married with children.) One purpose is for her to experience living in a Catholic sub-culture. It is a place where she can wear modest dresses and feel like it is normal. It is also to increase her acquaintances among Catholic young adults to make it easier for her to meet a Catholic husband.
To what end, I ask?
For what purpose?
You make some rather harsh and rash judgments about women. I've never taken a vow of celibacy, have a university education, live on my own as single in the world and have maintained my purity. I am now 60 years of age and have been on my own since age 18. It's not how I expected my life to turn out, but by God's grace, here I am. My main workplace has no men to be allured. I work for a non-profit home, teaching special needs children, ages 5-8. Dare I say men are not suited for this type of work? In the distant past, one would find nuns doing such work. The other reason there are no men is because the pay is too low to make a living wage. All of my work colleagues are either married, living with their parents. Unlike the nuns of old, I don't get to spend my nonworking time in community where other needs are met by others, cooking, food, shelter, clothing, mass, sacraments, social and recreational...To make ends meet, I moonlight by housecleanig, tutoring, mending, other jobs as I find.You are not to be condemned, but to be commended for your great work. As I mentioned, necessity changes the rules sometimes. You'd have to admit you are an anomaly. Most women could not have taken the singles life to the level of nobility, so it really cannot come recommended or be prepared for except indirectly by a great respect for God and the true Faith. Not because it can't be done, but because it can rarely be done properly. You stand as a model for all men and women because you have taken all your distinct opportunities and turned your circuмstances into glory for God and credit to yourself.
I would greatly appreciate prayers rather than condemnations. I am getting old and have very little provision should I have to quit working. It's not because I wasted money, either.
I work for a non-profit home, teaching special needs children, ages 5-8. Dare I say men are not suited for this type of work?
The women who aren't mature enough for marriage/babies are the ones who were not raised with a proper view of femininity, nor that phenomenal vocation exclusive to women. But that doesn't mean they can't learn. This has everything to do with Christ's missionary mandate and Catholics should always reflect these truths in their beliefs and conversation.Which is what I’m getting at. They need to learn before they take on such important roles. They have to also accept themselves for what exactly their sex is designed for. I’m not arguing. Or promoting any sort of feminism. A lady such as Described simply couldn’t be thrown into a situation of wife/mother without some intense personal reflection, and prayer.
You make some rather harsh and rash judgments about women. I've never taken a vow of celibacy, have a university education, live on my own as single in the world and have maintained my purity. I am now 60 years of age and have been on my own since age 18. It's not how I expected my life to turn out, but by God's grace, here I am. My main workplace has no men to be allured. I work for a non-profit home, teaching special needs children, ages 5-8. Dare I say men are not suited for this type of work? In the distant past, one would find nuns doing such work. The other reason there are no men is because the pay is too low to make a living wage. All of my work colleagues are either married, living with their parents. Unlike the nuns of old, I don't get to spend my nonworking time in community where other needs are met by others, cooking, food, shelter, clothing, mass, sacraments, social and recreational...To make ends meet, I moonlight by housecleanig, tutoring, mending, other jobs as I find.You are the exception, not the rule.
I would greatly appreciate prayers rather than condemnations. I am getting old and have very little provision should I have to quit working. It's not because I wasted money, either.
The suggestion that women might be better off not being a mother is a sure sign feminism is ingrained.
Depends on the special needs of the children. Men are better at teaching perceptual-motor skills to children who are deficient in that area.Where do you live? We have an OT position open for the 2018-2019 school year. There have been a few male workers over the years, several excellent ones, with the boys ages 10-13, especially. Unfortunately, these were young men who had to leave in order to get married or to pay off college loans and move out of Mom's basement!
Which is what I’m getting at. They need to learn before they take on such important roles. They have to also accept themselves for what exactly their sex is designed for. I’m not arguing. Or promoting any sort of feminism. A lady such as discerned simply couldn’t be thrown into a situation of wife/mother without some intense personal reflection, and prayer.I agree they should learn first. But then, if they haven't learned, they also need to remain celibate, or if married, accept the children that come while they learn. When someone says women should not be having kids, it is usually because they are advocating some sort of birth control. That would be my only concern. I can speak from experience: God sends kids to parents to straighten parents out.
Yet, it is a fact of life that many women will never marry. Especially nowadays when the incentive for men to marry them is close to mmm ... zero! (After all, they are getting all the *benefits* without any commitment on their part; yet modern woman is too short sighted to see things for what they really are ::)).Absolutely.
It is far better for those girls to remain single and celibate than become yet another "single mom".
My youngest daughter is going to a small Catholic college. (The older two are already married with children.) One purpose is for her to experience living in a Catholic sub-culture. It is a place where she can wear modest dresses and feel like it is normal. It is also to increase her acquaintances among Catholic young adults to make it easier for her to meet a Catholic husband.Sounds like she is there to get her "MRS" degree which is fine.
She is studying philosophy, not something career oriented. Her education will help her if she has children when she homeschools them. When we talk about her future, we keep in mind how her plans can work with being a wife and mother.
I expect that if she does get married she will end up with a good husband because she will compare the men she meets to her father. She knows what a good husband and father looks like without even thinking about it.
You are the exception, not the rule.True. I don't fit the profile of having had trad parents and sitting 20 years in the pew of a trad chapel.
The problem is Trads accepting the world's ideas of what is good for the daughter.
They need to go back to God's plan fpr daughters.
Sounds like she is there to get her "MRS" degree which is fine.She is considering becoming qualified as a piano teacher because that can be done part-time while raising children, if necessary to supplement the family income, or can be done full time if she does not marry. She is already fairly advanced as a pianist so this is a realistic possibility for her.
Does she intend to work after becoming a mother?
Does she wear pants?
Are your other daughters/daughters-in-law working mothers?
There is nothing wrong with a girl deciding that marriage is not for her, choosing a religious vocation, or one in the wider service of Our Lord and a commitment to lifelong purity.Exactly.
But for the majority who choose marriage, motherhood must always be seen as the nature fulfilment of God’s purpose of a woman’s life.
It is for mothers to teach their daughters that these vocations are the only ones open to a Godly woman and that both require modesty, chastity and sacrifice.
A mother who teaches otherwise is a feminist.
I can't imagine her wearing pants if her husband objected.She should avoid men’s attire because THE CHURCH and OUR LORD objects to contra-natural clothes. If women don’t recognize this fact, they need to. Otherwise, her views on clothing are feminized.
She should avoid men’s attire because THE CHURCH and OUR LORD objects to contra-natural clothes. If women don’t recognize this fact, they need to. Otherwise, her views on clothing are feminized.Feminized?
What is up with girls night out among trad women? It seems to be the trend. Who is watching the children?The husband is.
What is up with girls night out among trad women? It seems to be the trend. Who is watching the children?My husband, their father. Because I deserve a break too. It’s also helpful for our marriage because I tend to get “touched out” by my kids. So, I need time to decompress for him. He understands because he gets the same way.
What is up with girls night out among trad women? It seems to be the trend. Who is watching the children?Why does someone dislike a question?
"Trads raising feminist daughters (https://www.cathinfo.com/catholic-living-in-the-modern-world/trads-raising-feminist-daughters/msg617299/#msg617299)"
Most American Catholics, including the Trads, fail and "buy what they're selling." They're sell-outs most of the time. It's the most comfortable thing to do. As long as they get theirs, they don't mind. Result: Their daughters move out with a boyfriend when they come of age. This is what happens when a group capitulates.Agreed.
A sure fire way to get one's daughter to embrace feminism is to raise her thinking that there is something other than motherhood or the celibate life out there for her. The only way to get the grace from God to destroy feminism is to raise daughters with modesty and true feminine integrity. If she goes off the deep end, then that's on her. However, not even trad mothers and fathers are bothering anymore and most have embraced feminism to one degree or another.That is completely right. As a woman there can only be two vocations. A celibate life in the service of Christ or that of marriage and motherhood.
That is completely right. As a woman there can only be two vocations. A celibate life in the service of Christ or that of marriage and motherhood.No doubt some will disagree. Interestingly, a girl who prepares to be a doctor or lawyer does upward of 15-20 years of schooling. Yet mothers promoting any kind of motherhood manage to have a couple of talks with their daughters at 12. Then when the girl goes bad, they wonder what happened.
No doubt some will disagree. Interestingly, a girl who prepares to be a doctor or lawyer does upward of 15-20 years of schooling. Yet mothers promoting any kind of motherhood manage to have a couple of talks with their daughters at 12. Then when the girl goes bad, they wonder what happened.Why does any woman need to train as a lawyer ? A doctor yes - to treat women in modesty and with personal knowledge but a lawyer - why - how can that be Godly
This subject comes up between my husband and I frequently, as we have 2 daughters and one on the way. We were just talking about it this morning, in fact.I / we also struggle with this point. My husband will not allow me to see a male doctor but we both disagree with female higher education except in medicine - a dilemma I agree.
A summary of what our conclusions are:
-If our daughters are unmarried and not in a convent, we will encourage them to stay under our roof until they have either a convent or a husband from whom they will receive their covering from. There is plenty of work to do around the homestead, and jobs that don't require having to work in the public arena around men. Tutoring, music lessons, seemstress work, etc.
-University will not be encouraged or funded by us. If they do wish for more than a highschool education, let it be of a useful sort to help her in the education of her children, or to learn some sort of trade that could bring in more income if the family fell on dire financial times. They don't need to go to a university, and most generally not even a small community college campus to get this kind of training. It can be online or apprenticing, etc.
One thing that we've discussed, that does leave us a bit perplexed, is women going to college to be in the health profession. I know how thankful I am that there are women doctors who I can go to for womens health issues and for delivering babies. My husband despises male OBGYN's, and I would rather risk my health than to willingly go to one. Yet at the same time, we would highly discourage our daughters for ever thinking of entering the work force for that purpose. Can we discuss this topic here, or should it be another thread?
If our daughters are unmarried and not in a convent, we will encourage them to stay under our roof until they have either a convent or a husband from whom they will receive their covering from.Should be a requirement, not just encouragement. If she disagrees, then shes cut from the will and no marriage reception help. It's that important to her salvation.
One thing that we've discussed, that does leave us a bit perplexed, is women going to college to be in the health profession. I know how thankful I am that there are women doctors who I can go to for womens health issues and for delivering babies. My husband despises male OBGYN's, and I would rather risk my health than to willingly go to one. Yet at the same time, we would highly discourage our daughters for ever thinking of entering the work force for that purpose. Can we discuss this topic here, or should it be another thread?Let her be a midwife.
I / we also struggle with this point. My husband will not allow me to see a male doctor but we both disagree with female higher education except in medicine - a dilemma I agree.I actually had the uncomfortable situation with a male obgyn.... I do try to remember that before women became doctors. We only had Male doctors. So, a lot of women had this uncomfortable moment.
Should be a requirement, not just encouragement. If she disagrees, then shes cut from the will and no marriage reception help. It's that important to her salvation.Well, yeah, it's a given that we'd forbid her from living with a boyfriend/fiancee. So are you saying to cut her from the will if she moves out of our house at say, the age of 30 with no prospective husband?
Let her be a midwife..
Well, yeah, it's a given that we'd forbid her from living with a boyfriend/fiancee. So are you saying to cut her from the will if she moves out of our house at say, the age of 30 with no prospective husband?She shouldn’t be allowed to move out and live with a girlfriend, boyfriend, or alone. Maybe 30 is a good cutoff age? I don’t know, but sounds good. Obviously this is all theoretical, assuming the parents have room where she can stay. I’m just preaching the ideal. Circuмstances dictate differences. The point is to keep your daughter away from bad influences until they are mentally mature, which in our day is probably not til 30 (at best).
She shouldn’t be allowed to move out and live with a girlfriend, boyfriend, or alone. Maybe 30 is a good cutoff age? I don’t know, but sounds good. Obviously this is all theoretical, assuming the parents have room where she can stay. I’m just preaching the ideal. Circuмstances dictate differences. The point is to keep your daughter away from bad influences until they are mentally mature, which in our day is probably not til 30 (at best).In principle I agree but I don’t think it is so much age as circuмstance. God did not intend women of any age to be without protection and guidance. A daughter should generally remain under her family until she either marries or joins a religious order.
The other issue which hasn't been mentioned isthat when a woman works she is taking a job that cpcould be held by man.Not necessarily.
She is therefore preventing a man from supporting a family and contributing to the subversion of society.
No, it is not the goal.
There are too many recent "Trad" girls being sent off to college to do "something highly important. "
And it is encouraged as though we are non-Catholic members of the world.
We are to be a contradiction to the world.
I / we also struggle with this point. My husband will not allow me to see a male doctor but we both disagree with female higher education except in medicine - a dilemma I agree.
Are you trying to say you're a homo?
We tried sticking with female ob/gyns but every one turned out to be incompetent. Serious errors were made that could have endangered the babies..
Oh, yeah, you're mad because I called out your weight struggles, but you refuse to abstain from the oils, fats and excess dead flesh.
Nah, brah.
You're saying that because you're mad at me for calling out your heresy & idiocy in saying "God is not a Catholic God", and for destroying your illogical posit that even righteous men must be forced to provide material support for their harlot wives who "divorce" them. You simply couldn't come up with a good counter to my analogy of Lucifer revolting in Heaven, but God wasn't accountable or to blame for it. You tried semantic slithery, but it failed, too.
In principle I agree but I don’t think it is so much age as circuмstance. God did not intend women of any age to be without protection and guidance. A daughter should generally remain under her family until she either marries or joins a religious order.In an ideal world, yes. Our Lord and Our Lady are my protection and guidance. But when it comes down to practical application in this life, I have to protect and guide myself. If that makes me a feminist, so be it.
In an ideal world, yes. Our Lord and Our Lady are my protection and guidance. But when it comes down to practical application in this life, I have to protect and guide myself. If that makes me a feminist, so be it.No one objects to a single woman taking care of herself, if she has no responsible parent or husband to do so.
They must not have been Trad Catholics. I've never heard of Trad Catholics "messing around."I have never gone out to complain about my kids or husband. That is just me personally, but i will say my mom tribe will talk about what frustrates us. We do it in a safe environment where no one mentions divorce, what we can do to get back at them, only positive encouragement. You need supportive friends to sound things off of sometimes. Kids are frustrating, and to be honest I don’t want to sit there talking my husbands ear off about tiny things. That’s what mom friends are for.
I've also only heard of one divorce in the past 20 years amongst my Trad peers.
I've also never heard my wife say anyone complains aboit their husbands.
I'm pretty sure the ladies here will disagree with your assertion.
The Trad wives I've known are a hardworking, responsible bunch who deserve an evening off. Why you would suggest that they act like worldly working women seems odd to me.
No one objects to a single woman taking care of herself, if she has no responsible parent or husband to do so.Nor do good Trad Catholics raise their daughters to go to college to become worldly professionals while considering themselves anti-feminism. Colleges are cesspools of immorality and the temptation to carry on with a career that almost demands the use of contraceptives is a given. Some women make it through, but the vast majority fall in line. Encouraging one's daughter to the near occasion of sin is wrong. With short term trade schools myriad, there is little reason to even consider college for a Catholic girl. "Getting ahead" is a bad philosophy parents visit on their kids these days. Many do not get ahead anyway; they become indebted to the system as they lose their morals.
However, no Trad Catholic woman worth her salt proudly calls herself "feminist."
Nor do good Trad Catholics raise their daughters to go to college to become worldly professionals while considering themselves anti-feminism. Colleges are cesspools of immorality and the temptation to carry on with a career that almost demands the use of contraceptives is a given. Some women make it through, but the vast majority fall in line. Encouraging one's daughter to the near occasion of sin is wrong. With short term trade schools myriad, there is little reason to even consider college for a Catholic girl. "Getting ahead" is a bad philosophy parents visit on their kids these days. Many do not get ahead anyway; they become indebted to the system as they lose their morals.That this would get a thumbs down shows feminists lurking here.
Worse, if you think your daughter wanting to go be a scientist and not have kids is okay, YOU ARE A FEMINIST.If you think all women are called to biological motherhood, you're Lutheran.
Nor do good Trad Catholics raise their daughters to go to college to become worldly professionals while considering themselves anti-feminism. Colleges are cesspools of immorality and the temptation to carry on with a career that almost demands the use of contraceptives is a given. Some women make it through, but the vast majority fall in line. Encouraging one's daughter to the near occasion of sin is wrong. With short term trade schools myriad, there is little reason to even consider college for a Catholic girl. "Getting ahead" is a bad philosophy parents visit on their kids these days. Many do not get ahead anyway; they become indebted to the system as they lose their morals.I'm not sure why this would be downvoted. It is spot on. I think there are many mothers here who are my age that could personally attest to this. I went to college before converting and somehow escaped the debauchery, but my head was pumped full of all sorts of progressive, liberal ideas. I think women are particularly vulnerable to being gullible in these types of environments. Young, single women just out of highschool still need the protection of their fathers at home, or a husband and children to devote themselves to. Or a convent.
I'm not sure why this would be downvoted. It is spot on. I think there are many mothers here who are my age that could personally attest to this. I went to college before converting and somehow escaped the debauchery, but my head was pumped full of all sorts of progressive, liberal ideas. I think women are particularly vulnerable to being gullible in these types of environments. Young, single women just out of highschool still need the protection of their fathers at home, or a husband and children to devote themselves to. Or a convent.Yes, this is my experience of university too. It was very bad for me spiritually.
If you think all women are called to biological motherhood, you're Lutheran.
do you happen to know if the Church allows for something in-between motherhood and being a religious?Yes, virginity is a vocation (https://www.gutenberg.org/files/31311/31311-h/31311-h.htm#5).
I have been wondering about this as well. Surely not all women are called to motherhood.Obviously not all women are called to biological motherhood since some married women, through no fault of their own, are infertile. All women, however, are called to spiritual motherhood. There should be an outlet for her nurturing instincts in every woman's life, no matter what her state of life.
If you think all women are called to biological motherhood, you're Lutheran.Smedley neither said nor implied that all women are called to biological motherhood.
Worse, if you think your daughter wanting to go be a scientist and not have kids is okay, YOU ARE A FEMINIST.
Yes, virginity is a vocation (https://www.gutenberg.org/files/31311/31311-h/31311-h.htm#5).
Today, a virgin can become a consecrated virgin as well, by making a public vow of virginity:
In 1927 the Holy See forbade public vows of virginity apart from entering a religious institute (AAS 19 (1927) (http://www.vatican.va/archive/aas/docuмents/AAS-19-1927-ocr.pdf) 138), but the '83 Code reinstated it (Can. 604 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P1Y.HTM) on the "order of virgins"); the privilege was granted in other eras of Church history, too.
cf. The Mystery of Love for the Single (https://isidore.co/calibre/#panel=book_details&book_id=5886) by Fr. Unger, O.F.M. Cap. (1958) ch. 5 and this blog by a consecrated virgin (https://sponsa-christi.blogspot.com/).
Smedley neither said nor implied that all women are called to biological motherhood.He said there is something wrong with a woman not desiring biological children.
Yes, this is my experience of university too. It was very bad for me spiritually.Even when I had sincerely converted, I held on to many principles that I was indoctrinated with in college- both spiritual and political. Not because i was trying to be obstinate, but because I really didn't know any better. I was very gullible. One would be a fool to think that they could brush all of that off right away just because they converted, or just because they are a cradle Catholic. There is SO MUCH to undo, to learn, and to practice. I think it will take takes years, if not a lifetime. I am so thankful for my husbands guidance in spiritual and theological matters.
Thanks for the above info. Very informative. I wonder why the Holy See forbade public vows of virginity apart from a religious institute in 1927.No explanation was given, as it was a response to a dubia:
« An expediat concedere facultatem dandi benedictionem et consecrationem Virginum mulieribus in saeculo viventibus »It seems it was because nonnulli locorum Antistites petiissent facultatem [several bishops in various places requested the faculty]; viz., it seems they were getting too many requests that they had to put a temporary hold on it.
responderunt: « Negative et nihil innovetur ».
« Whether it is expedient [for the pope] to give [bishops] the faculty to bless and consecrate virgins living in the world »
they [the fathers of the Sacred Congregation of Religious who voted] responded: « Negative and no changes »
He said there is something wrong with a woman not desiring biological children.Earlier in the thread he said,
I'm not talking about Trads teaching about relgious vocations.He was obviously talking about the majority of women, i.e. those who do not have religious vocations. When such women want to avoid motherhood that is something wrong and almost certainly a sign of feminist influence, just as he says.
I'm talking about Trads ENCOURAGING college/job over motherhood...
Even when I had sincerely converted, I held on to many principles that I was indoctrinated with in college- both spiritual and political. Not because i was trying to be obstinate, but because I really didn't know any better. I was very gullible. One would be a fool to think that they could brush all of that off right away just because they converted, or just because they are a cradle Catholic. There is SO MUCH to undo, to learn, and to practice. I think it will take takes years, if not a lifetime. I am so thankful for my husbands guidance in spiritual and theological matters.:applause:
He said there is something wrong with a woman not desiring biological children.There are certainly Catholic women who go on to become scientists and mathematicians and spiritual motherhood for them would be desirable. What happens with most women who go down the career path is that they struggle with the notion of contraception or limiting children for the sake of their career. Or worse, sending their children off to a babysitter in order to maintain their career. If a woman is dedicated to remaining single or taking vows, she could certainly attempt a career and do well, even spiritually, given her decision is a prayerful one. A Catholic woman should understand what she's getting herself into before she takes any path. And sadly, many haven't a clue because their parents dropped the ball when it came to educating them. It seems to me that a Catholic school for young women would be the ideal. Schooling girls like boys leads to a lot of dead ends for the girl who finds herself a fish out of water no matter what she chooses to do. Teaching Catholic girls how to raise children, run a home, develop a talent, balance a budget, change a toilet, farm animals and food, be a good wife and mother...was a dream of mine, but with the size family I have, my dream probably won't be realized for others, just for my own girls.
Also, is there any opposition between being a scientist and being a spiritual mother? There have been many nun scientists and mathematicians throughout Church history.
Interesting rules for female teachers in 1914.
Notice the importance of modesty and chastity.
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Trads, perhaps, could join a third order?Third orders don't take vows, let alone vows of perfect continence/virginity.
Third orders don't take vows, let alone vows of perfect continence/virginity.
Traditional bishops have certainly performed the De Benedictione et Consecratione Virginum in recent times, as nuns can become consecrated virgins, too.
Ask a bishop.
Earlier in the thread he said, He was obviously talking about the majority of women, i.e. those who do not have religious vocations. When such women want to avoid motherhood that is something wrong and almost certainly a sign of feminist influence, just as he says.Thank you, Jaynek!
It was unreasonable to call him a Lutheran.
Interesting rules for female teachers in 1914.Fantastic!
Notice the importance of modesty and chastity.
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/36650873_2005016196479585_4840341504511705088_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=57baad62a7ddd6d0e71edf15c816fb8e&oe=5BE4C7C1)
Fantastic!
This thread is about the disconnect between the faith and what it teaches as the model for society, and the faithful who are not following the model.What is "the model"? Could you be more specific?
Earlier in the thread he said, He was obviously talking about the majority of women, i.e. those who do not have religious vocations. When such women want to avoid motherhood that is something wrong and almost certainly a sign of feminist influence, just as he says.It could be a sign they have a religious vocation.
once a woman marry, she should not work outside the home.Why should a wife not work outside the home?
Thank you, Jaynek!A month ago I wouldn't have imagined that I would be regularly upvoting your posts. :cheers:
On this we agree...
Why should a wife not work outside the home?Are you kidding? ?
Are you kidding? ?And mothers with their children.
I'm not letting my kids be raised by daycare workers so my wife can work!
Are you crazy? Children belong with their mothers.
Why should a wife not work outside the home?If the couple has no children, it may be acceptable at first as the wife winds down in the outside world and moves to a greater vocation. However, the chastity issue exists in that case. Why put something as valuable as a marriage on the line? Once a woman has children, the division of time she gives to time away from the kids is counter intuitive to the marriage and raising of the kids. Why would a woman work outside the home? Any monetary benefit becomes a negative in the bigger picture. Depending on God for the family's needs is a modern day challenge but the benefits for permitting God to make it all work brings unimaginable grace.
Are you kidding? ?Why don't all men talk this way? People have become money grabbers, sacrificing their children on the altar of personal gain.
I'm not letting my kids be raised by daycare workers so my wife can work!
Are you crazy? Children belong with their mothers.
Why should a wife not work outside the home?
A month ago I wouldn't have imagined that I would be regularly upvoting your posts. :cheers:Who would have thought?
Because the Church teaches so and the Church knows best.I think the confusion among trads on this point is the question on wether it's ok to work outside of the home after being married but before children. Most agree that working outside the home with children is a no-no, but see no problem with doing it before the first child comes along.
I have posted several Papal teachings in this regard in the other thread. The realm of woman (most especially if she is a wife and a mother), is home.
Contrary to modern and feminist belief, it is physically impossible to be in two places at the same time. How is a woman supposed to make home and tend the children, if she is outside?
What is "the model"? Could you be more specific?The model is for women in the workplace. Unchastity is a byproduct.
"The model" of feminism is simply unchastity. Could this thread be titled "Trads raising unchaste daughters"? Is that what you're trying say?
If the couple has no children, it may be acceptable at first as the wife winds down in the outside world and moves to a greater vocation. However, the chastity issue exists in that case.Yes, a wife should not be in the male-dominated workforce because it's placing herself in an occasion of sin against chastity.
Are you kidding? ?Just because I ask the question means I think wives should work outside the home?
I'm not letting my kids be raised by daycare workers so my wife can work!
Are you crazy? Children belong with their mothers.
Who would have thought?
:cheers:
Just because I ask the question means I think wives should work outside the home?It puts the woman under the authority of someone other than her husband.
I was pleased to see two answers: (1) it separates mothers/children and (2) it's an occasion of sins against chastity.
Are there other reasons?
I think the confusion among trads on this point is the question on wether it's ok to work outside of the home after being married but before children. Most agree that working outside the home with children is a no-no, but see no problem with doing it before the first child comes along.My husband said the same.
My husband settled that question before it even became one when we were engaged. He made it clear that I was not to work outside the home once we were married, even if we were so unfortunate as to not be able to have kids for some reason. I was so relieved! It gave me every opportunity to be single minded on making the home.
Yes, a wife should not be in the male-dominated workforce because it's placing herself in an occasion of sin against chastity.
Feminists think house and family isn't enough? Why would a woman take on her responsibilities, then take on the man's also? Go to work, Sir, I'm not doing your work too, I got the kids and the house.Girl, preach it 🙌🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼
:applause:
Yes, that's it exactly. It is extremely difficult to uproot feminism when it invades our souls.
It puts the woman under the authority of someone other than her husband.Wives are under the authority of their priests, too, aren't they?
Wives are under the authority of their priests, too, aren't they?The fourth commandment applies to your parents, then to all other people in authority over you.
It's no longer male-dominated, but if I recall the stats are nearly 50-50. I even see women working on construction crews ... much less in offices.
Girl, preach it 🙌🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼
I know a family where the mother started going to school/working when the kids needed her most. She has 3 children, I married the eldest son. Her second son has a severe drug addiction, and lived a life of horrors until starting to recover. Concerning her daughter I think Satan makes better company compared to her. The only one she was home for most of his years was my husband. The other two not so much. The family also sent both kids away to college. My husband paid his own way through trade school, but the younger two had always had things handed to them. The daughter is vicious if she doesn’t get what she wants. So my two cents is moms belong at home.
On the other thread, Jaynek said Trads are "subtly influenced" by feminism.I think that science and university attendance by girls can be a good thing. As for any female graduate who came home and said, "I don't want kids." I would recommend that she look into religious life, maybe a teaching order.
I will say it is MUCH worse than this.
I see Trads raising feminist daughters.
Examples:
Science and university attendence emphasized by stay-at-home mothers.
Female graduates who came from homes with many children stating they "don't want kids. "
And the mothers viewing that as NORMAL.
If you spent the last 20 years in the home fulfilling God's female role raising your children and they reject motherhood, you have failed!
Worse, if you think your daughter wanting to go be a scientist and not have kids is okay, YOU ARE A FEMINIST.
I think that science and university attendance by girls can be a good thing.It's not a good thing, poche. However, if your daughter insisted on attending university and you had no control over it, I would at least try to convince her to go into the sciences where there are fewer liberal arts classes.
Speechless!
(http://sandrarose.com/images28/leonor-flores-549x284.jpg?x64655)
(http://sandrarose.com/images28/mcm-builder-549x411.jpg?x64655)
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I think that science and university attendance by girls can be a good thing. As for any female graduate who came home and said, "I don't want kids." I would recommend that she look into religious life, maybe a teaching order.Attending university is never a good thing.
Attending university is never a good thing.These days, yes. They'd learn so much more in a monastery.
Attending university is never a good thing.We bring up the children as best we can. We try to give them an understanding of values and morality and an understanding of what is important in life. But at some point they will have to be out on their own.
As anyone who has been knows, and has attested to here.
I think that science and university attendance by girls can be a good thing. As for any female graduate who came home and said, "I don't want kids." I would recommend that she look into religious life, maybe a teaching order.
The problem is that they are being actively brainwashed in the universities to NOT want any children. To repudiate husbands and families and focus on their "careers" instead so they become "strong and independent" women.Gotta be a feminαzι to thumb this down.
Most women (not all) actually want children naturally, they just rationalize they don't want them; especially after they realize it is too late and they have not secured a husband to have them with.
The most foolish ones go on and become "single moms" in an irresponsible rush. Other ones, (actually the majority of them nowadays), are nurturing cats and dogs instead of real children in a desperate attempt to fulfill that female need.
Women should not be wasting their prime years in universities.
These days, yes. They'd learn so much more in a monastery.... If there was a good one to send them to...
The problem is that they are being actively brainwashed in the universities to NOT want any children.Not only that, but they also ridicule the religious life. Look at the titles of the publications of this history prof (https://history.arizona.edu/user/beth-plummer): Priest's Whore to Pastor's Wife, “‘Nothing More than Common Whores and Knaves’: Married Monks and Nuns in the Early German Reformation.”, etc. Universities study, propagandize, and promote perversions, even outside the "gender studies" and LBGTQxyz departments.
To repudiate husbands and families and focus on their "careers"A friend of mine doing pro-life work asked a young lady at a university if she wants kids. She said she would drop out and have lots of children right away, but for some reason she kept worshiping the careerism idol. Young women even sacrifice their children to Moloch in exchange for a piece of paper (diploma) or a "rewarding" (read: enslaving) career.
instead so they become "strong and independent" women.Strong is good, but "independent" is a euphemism for disobedient.
The problem is that they are being actively brainwashed in the universities to NOT want any children. To repudiate husbands and families and focus on their "careers" instead so they become "strong and independent" women.Wherever they go once they leave home there will be voices against what the Church teaches. We have to give them our best and when we send them out into the world we should pray for them that they be faithful to the Faith that we taught them.
Most women (not all) actually want children naturally, they just rationalize they don't want them; especially after they realize it is too late and they have not secured a husband to have them with.
The most foolish ones go on and become "single moms" in an irresponsible rush. Other ones, (actually the majority of them nowadays), are nurturing cats and dogs instead of real children in a desperate attempt to fulfill that female need.
Women should not be wasting their prime years in universities.
And not only all of the above, but women are also told/taught that to have children closer than 2 years apart is "damaging" and "dangerous" to the health of the woman and baby.It is also best if the parents are married to each other also.
And not only all of the above, but women are also told/taught that to have children closer than 2 years apart is "damaging" and "dangerous" to the health of the woman and baby.And actively encouraged to poison their bodies and pervert the purpose of both marriage and intimacy by using birth control.
I think that science and university attendance by girls can be a good thing. As for any female graduate who came home and said, "I don't want kids." I would recommend that she look into religious life, maybe a teaching order.I personally think that if girls are to go onto higher education it should be in a carefully controlled environment, only with parental consent and the subjects should be appropriate.
I personally think that if girls are to go onto higher education it should be in a carefully controlled environment, only with parental consent and the subjects should be appropriate.
Considering the current state of colleges and universities, they do not seem suitable environments for Catholic sons, either.
Considering the current state of colleges and universities, they do not seem suitable environments for Catholic sons, either.
It is truly lamentable, but I don't know where a Catholic young man can receive a higher education today, when all institutions are freemasonic in nature, and quite perverted on the moral level.
Not to mention that the quality of education is nothing short of garbage. I remember taking a graduate level theology course at Catholic University of America in Thomistic theology. I can safely say that I learned more in my first two weeks at seminary than I did during that entire course.
Not to mention that the quality of education is nothing short of garbage. I remember taking a graduate level theology course at Catholic University of America in Thomistic theology. I can safely say that I learned more in my first two weeks at seminary than I did during that entire course.What seminary was that?
So ... and I never thought this would ever happen ... but I agree with poche. That was difficult to type :).I know what you're going through. Imagine how hard it was for me to agree with Smedley.
On the other thread, Jaynek said Trads are "subtly influenced" by feminism.
I will say it is MUCH worse than this.
I see Trads raising feminist daughters.
Examples:
Science and university attendence emphasized by stay-at-home mothers.
Female graduates who came from homes with many children stating they "don't want kids. "
And the mothers viewing that as NORMAL.
If you spent the last 20 years in the home fulfilling God's female role raising your children and they reject motherhood, you have failed!
Worse, if you think your daughter wanting to go be a scientist and not have kids is okay, YOU ARE A FEMINIST.
Maybe the daughters are just tired and it's a phase. My mother came from a big family. Before I was born she took care of a brother, a niece, nephew and she worked as a nanny for a year after graduation. Let me hasten to add that my mother was delighted to have me but there are some foolish women who work their oldest daughter too hard and leave the girl burned out and resentful by the age of 20.
What seminary was that?
I know of families who recommend sending sons to the state university; over your typical "Catholic" Jesuit university. They say they have a better chance of keeping the Faith in the secular university than the Novus Ordo Catholic. :facepalm:
I tell my relatives and best friends, ‘If you want your children to fight for their faith, send them to public school. If you want them to lose their faith, send them to Catholic school.’ ~Archbishop Fulton Sheen
I know of families who recommend sending sons to the state university; over your typical "Catholic" Jesuit university. They say they have a better chance of keeping the Faith in the secular university than the Novus Ordo Catholic. :facepalm:Those families are right!
I know what you're going through. Imagine how hard it was for me to agree with Smedley.:laugh2:
:jester:
I honestly don’t see the good in completely sheltering children who are 13-18 or up. The only thing that does is give a sort of... alternative reality.I think 13-18 is the MOST important age to protect them.
Children have not been given to parents as a present, which they may dispose of as they please, but as a trust, for which, if lost through their negligence, they must render an account to God. The Scripture tells us, that when a father observes the divine law, both he and his children shall prosper. “That it may be well with thee and thy children after thee, when thou shalt do that which is pleasing in the sight of God.” (Deut. xii. 25.) The good or ill conduct of a parent may be known, by those who have not witnessed it, from the life which his children lead. “For by the fruit the tree is known. ”
4. If all fathers fulfilled their duty of watching over the education of their children, we should have but few crimes and few executions. By the bad education which parents give to their offspring, they cause their children, says St. Chrysostom, to rush into many grievous vices; and thus they deliver them up to the hands of the executioner.
Great indeed is the misfortune of the child that has vicious parents, who are incapable of bringing up their children in the fear of God, and who, when they see their children engaged in dangerous friendships and in quarrels, instead of correcting and chastising them, rather take compassion on them, and say: ”What can be done? They are young; they must take their course.” Oh! what wicked maxims! what a cruel education! Do you hope that when your children grow up they shall become saints? Listen to what Solomon says: ”A young man, according to his way, even when he is old, he will not depart from it.” (Prov. xxii. 6.) A young man who has contracted a habit of sin will not abandon it even in his old age. ”His bones,” says Job, ”shall be filled with the vices of his youth, and they shall sleep with him in the dust.”
I think 13-18 is the MOST important age to protect them.I agree, but you can't shield and protect them forever... otherwise, you get those Katy Perry types who completely rebel and stuff.
I agree, but you can't shield and protect them forever... otherwise, you get those Katy Perry types who completely rebel and stuff.
I honestly don’t see the good in completely sheltering children who are 13-18 or up. The only thing that does is give a sort of... alternative reality.
I agree, but you can't shield and protect them forever... otherwise, you get those Katy Perry types who completely rebel and stuff.
I think 13-18 is the MOST important age to protect them.You can’t send naive kids into the world, and hope for the best. Its just not practical... the kids I know who were most protected ended up being the worst human beings I know, and atheists to boot.
8. But parents are obliged to instruct their children in the practice of virtue, not only by words, but still more by example. If you give your children bad example, how can you expect that they will lead a good life? When a dissolute young man is corrected for a fault, he answers: Why do you censure me, when my father does worse. “The children will complain of an ungodly father, because for his sake they are in reproach. ”(Eccl. xli. 10.)
Should a father or a mother say: I myself do not know these mysteries (of Faith), can such an excuse be admitted? that is, can one sin excuse another? If you are ignorant of these mysteries you are obliged to learn them, and afterwards teach them to your children.
You can’t send naive kids into the world, and hope for the best. Its just not practical... the kids I know who were most protected ended up being the worst human beings I know, and atheists to boot.It seems we have a different standard of protection.
Boys need to be prepared for independence and for their future role as the head of their family. Girls need to be protected, supervised and chaperoned until marriage
Except that not all girls end up marrying. So what happens to them then, when their parents pass away. Do they go on welfare?If older unmarried women are not in a religious vocation then perhaps the wider family can provide the leadership and protection needed when parents can no longer do so. Failing that the Church should take a responsible approach.
If older unmarried women are not in a religious vocation then perhaps the wider family can provide the leadership and protection needed when parents can no longer do so. Failing that the Church should take a responsible approach.I've asked numerous priests about this. With one exception, they agree. But they all note that this does not happen in the reality of today's world. Several suggest living with a group of like-minded older single women, or with a roommate.
Except that not all girls end up marrying. So what happens to them then, when their parents pass away. Do they go on welfare?That is why they have to learn some way to make an honest living.
If older unmarried women are not in a religious vocation then perhaps the wider family can provide the leadership and protection needed when parents can no longer do so. Failing that the Church should take a responsible approach.I am curious as just what you mean by "A responsible approach". It sounds to me like you are saying that a woman can never reach a state of maturity but must always remain in a state of fragility of body and mind.
Those schools are the more dangerous because their anti-Christian character is entirely negative. What women, what mothers of family are to come out of them!
There is something then, truly serious in point, not only of morality but also of Faith, and the future of the Church, in this ridiculous initiation of women (to Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ). Freemasons know to what advantage women can be used. They know that woman, once hurled into the ways of impiety and vengeance, is more savage, and more tenacious than man, and goes further than he. Is it to be wondered at, if they are happy to see women affiliated to their Order, and if they loudly declare than "to found Lodges for women, would be going at a giant's rate in the way of humanitarian progress? These are the words of the Masonic World, Oct 1866.
Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ aims at wrestling from us the souls of our children; let us react with utmost energy, and from evil let us draw good. Let us kindle anew our zeal for the salvation and sanctification, and to prepare them to be soldiers of the Church. Fathers and mothers, do not forget that God has entrusted you with the care of their souls, and that education, if not thoroughly Christian, is now more than ever, an immense danger for them.
Again, this was written in 1867.
I am sure that Mons. De Segur could not even have phantom the monstrosities we are actually witnessing being taught in schools, nowadays:
Very interesting! "How Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ Extends its Action to Young Girls" (By via of professional schools). This is written in the year 1867.St. Dominic's solution to the miseducation of the Albigenses was to educate Catholic girls himself (whence his founding of the Prouille convent).
St. Dominic's solution to the miseducation of the Albigenses was to educate Catholic girls himself (whence his founding of the Prouille convent).Better that the education of girls be conducted by women religious.
Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ's method of making recruits has always been to separate fathers from their family, as the Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita and Piccolo Tigre's letter (https://librivox.org/the-war-of-antichrist-with-the-church-and-christian-civilization-by-george-f-dillon/) show.
Better that the education of girls be conducted by women religious.Yes, that's what the nuns of Prouille did.
Better that the education of girls be conducted by women religious.
Notice how ugly and masculinized these women are.You sure they're all women in that picture?…
Most agree that working outside the home with children is a no-no, but see no problem with doing it before the first child comes along.It seems that's not good, either, because the stress of working outside the home could prevent her from ever getting pregnant, couldn't it?
It seems that's not good, either, because the stress of working outside the home could prevent her from ever getting pregnant, couldn't it?Unless forced by financial necessities it is best that women going into marriage do give up work outside the home for many reasons. Certainly career should never be used to justify delaying motherhood.
It’s growing harder for men to protect, love, and provide for women because feminism put women into the workforce to compete AGAINST men for jobs, money, and power. This has resulted in less jobs, money, and power for men in society as women make up nearly half of the workforce today. And men without jobs, money, or power do not attract females and/or lose the female they had via divorce
And men acting like women in the workforce…(https://thetransformedwife.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/man-768x1078.jpg)
I think the key difficulty for traditional Catholic parents in trying to raise their daughters as truly feminine ladies is the fact that it is not always easy to find a proper balance and to know when to make exceptions to the normal rules.I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said !
We must protect the innocence of our children but also we must instruct them diligently to have a well-formed conscience.
We must train them delicately as to some of what is out there so that when they see the evils of the world they themselves recognize it as something they should turn away from.
I am reminded of the quote in Proverbs 22,6: "It is a proverb: A young man according to his way, even when he is old he will not depart from it." We have to teach our children from the time they are young what is good and what is evil. Yet, at the same time do it in a manner that guards their innocence. Such is not always easy, yet such is the task and duty of parents.
Also, it is important to remember that children learn by example... Many traditional Catholic mothers are not perfect examples of modesty, humility and meekness (true femininity). Their daughters see their mothers standing up to their fathers and being disrespectful towards them. So, as the daughters grow up they in turn do likewise. Granted, everyone has free-will, but it is much less rare in a family where the mother is a true model of feminine virtue do the daughters easily go astray. So, in order for our daughters to be raised as models with true feminine quality; first we mothers must become those models for them. Traditional men also ought to encourage their wives and daughters to be more feminine and support their wives in not allowing their daughters to adopt manly qualities or habits.
In recent days I told a few ladies about the forum so they are lurking.That is great! We would love to have more ladies here! ;D