Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: Last Tradhican on October 30, 2018, 05:31:23 AM
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The question below came from the "Do you Celebrate Halloween" thread. I thought it might be a good opening for a useful thread for parents:
Yes, this is a very difficult balance to be found. I've seen it over and over and over again where Traditional Catholics tried to be so perfect with their kids, that it only ended up creating a resentment regarding all the things other kids do that are forbidden. Then, as soon as they find some independence, they bolt off and are co-habitating with some non-Catholic woman. They go nuts with "forbidden fruit" syndrome. So, unless something is sinful or otherwise harmful, we don't restrict it. Sometimes the attempt to be "the perfect parents" is driven a bit too much by ego.
What exactly is this error that you have seen over and over again that makes their children want to "bolt off and cohabitate with some non-Catholic woman"?
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You have never witnessed the "forbidden fruit" syndrome? It's very common when kids go to college. They get their first taste of freedom and then go crazy in overdoing all manner of vices. Kids whose parents do not allow them to consume alcohol, for instance, are generally the most likely to be found throwing up every night / morning in the dorms. For those who have had a little here and there, well, alcohol has less of an allure for them.
I will not list names, but I would say that the majority of Traditional Catholic children in the two chapels near me have gone off the deep end after becoming independent. Several marriages in the Novus Ordo, much sinful cohabitation (sometimes with the fiction of a civil marriage). Many of these are now divorced. Quite a few have ceased practicing the Faith altogether. And, from what I have seen, the more strict their parents were when they were growing up, the farther they strayed. Young men and women who are ultimately called to the married state often become frustrated with the lack of suitable prospects at their relatively-small chapel populations. So, often, the second they find someone to whom they are attracted, they go for it. Very, very common. I think it's healthy for youngsters to mingle in controlled public settings (no exclusive dating) with members of the opposite sex. That way they can develop a sense for the type of person they would be compatible with, and the allure/mystique of the opposite sex quickly wears thin.
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You have never witnessed the "forbidden fruit" syndrome?
This syndrome is not the only (or greatest) cause for Trads going with the world. Typically it's step 5 after steps 1-4 have already failed. Other reasons (or combinations) for trads leaving the Faith. Lots of times, there are multiple reasons:
1. Poor catechesis and religion being superficial.
2. Lack of parent involvement in teaching religion, so that it has no practical, day-to-day weight and is only theoretical.
2b. Religion and God aren't taught in a postive way, with the reasons behind God's laws and why they are beneficial.
3. The child is just a black sheep or a wild child or simply prideful, regardless of the families' pious nature.
4. Child is corrupted by bad friends.
5. Child is not encouraged in pursuit of natural talents and good activities and wholesome fun (i.e. lack of alternatives to 'forbidden fruit')
There's probably a lot more. Most children who choose the forbidden fruit don't do so at a whim, but are usually discouraged in a variety of ways before they go this extreme route.
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And, from what I have seen, the more strict their parents were when they were growing up, the farther they strayed.
What is strict?
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The way I’ve heard it explained is that a parent can’t be an authoritarian without having established a positive relationship with the child. If there are rules in absence of love/acceptance, the child will look for love/acceptance other places, which the parent will see as “rebelling”. The child won’t see it as rebelling, they’ll see it as escaping a dictator.
But if the child knows he’s loved and has a relationship with his parents then he’ll trust the rules and be more open to following them.
There was a Protestant psychologist who said that most of his male patients who were atheists grew up Christian but stopped practicing because they had a horrible relationship with their Father, which clouded their view of God. I’m sure the same thing applies to women somehow but he didn’t explain.
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Interestingly, I had a long conversation with a friend the other day about this very question. My children are very young but this is something I certainly wonder about.
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I myself was definitely a victim-- or participant might be a better way to put it-- in the forbidden fruit syndrome. So I ask myself, "what could my parents have done differently so that I cared about religion from ages ~12-20?" Latin mass only attendance, rosary every night, all the sacraments on time, etc. obviously wasn't enough. And it's not like kids don't have free will; theoretically everything could be done right and the kid could still be lost. Think of the prodigal son (who of course eventually returned, but the point is that he was lost for quite a while). So maybe they did do everything they could have. But if it's a widespread phenomenon, then my guess is that there's something more the parents could do.
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I don't exactly know the answer to that, but something my friend and I think might play a role is not just a "lack of catechetics" but a lack of philosophical formation in particular. When kids are preparing for Holy Communion, they're taught the catechism as a recitation. But at a certain point a child, perhaps even without explicitly realizing it, will ask himself why he believes what he does (asking this question is, IMO, good). And at a certain point "because my parents told me" is simply not a sufficient reason. What's left? No amount of recitation will communicate the underlying reasons, IMO. Recitation is good for learning the basics, and it's good in prayer for reinforcing virtue through practice. After that it's utility is questionable.
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If, on the other hand, a kid has a strong philosophical foundation-- he doesn't just know the basics of the faith but he knows why they're true, especially the ones that can be demonstrated a priori (like God's existence) or with enormous historical credibility (the formation and existence of the Catholic Church, the fact of the Resurrection, etc.), I have to imagine it'd be much harder to throw away. Because it's not like the kid is going to approach his parents who've only ever just had him recite (however frequently) the Baltimore Catechism about some concern or another. No, if he starts to question he's very probably going to keep it to himself and slowly defect (which was my own trajectory). Combine that intellectual slide with the world, the flesh, and the devil and the end destination is a foregone conclusion. When those temptations and questions come up, kids need something beyond "my parents told me." They need something. This is not an imperfection of theirs, I think it's human nature. We're rational animals. When we become men, we put aside the things of children. Part of that means understanding the world (metaphysically) independently from what you were told as a child.
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Grace builds on nature. If you never know why you believe what you do and you're exposed to the temptations and arguments of the world, don't expect your faith to stick around for very long. I think kids probably need to receive a fuller, stronger foundation in the supporting elements of the faith. This keeps things interesting, engaging, and most importantly it helps them form critical thinking skills and also progressively shows them that we can submit the Catholic faith to virtually any and every challenge and the Catholic faith will win. I'm sure there's a strategic balance to be struck as well-- you probably don't want to sit down with an eight year old and say "let's see if we can prove God doesn't exist"-- but with a thirteen year old? Maybe! I don't have a perfect strategy developed for this, and I'm sure it would vary from family to family, from child to child.
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I'll close by pointing out that this is especially important now. It wouldn't be as important in a Catholic society, because you would have the useful social controls and pressures to at least nominally reinforce standards of Catholic behavior. So you could "get away" with, at least at face value, a shallower catechetics since your kids are going to be marrying other Catholics and continuing to go to mass and practice the faith no matter what-- they pretty much don't have a choice unless they really want to break off and go join the Caliphate or something. But no such society exists now, so there needs to be a strong, commensurate reason to stay Catholic since there won't be any serious social consequences for not remaining in the Church.
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This syndrome is not the only (or greatest) cause for Trads going with the world. Typically it's step 5 after steps 1-4 have already failed. Other reasons (or combinations) for trads leaving the Faith. Lots of times, there are multiple reasons:
1. Poor catechesis and religion being superficial.
2. Lack of parent involvement in teaching religion, so that it has no practical, day-to-day weight and is only theoretical.
2b. Religion and God aren't taught in a postive way, with the reasons behind God's laws and why they are beneficial.
3. The child is just a black sheep or a wild child or simply prideful, regardless of the families' pious nature.
4. Child is corrupted by bad friends.
5. Child is not encouraged in pursuit of natural talents and good activities and wholesome fun (i.e. lack of alternatives to 'forbidden fruit')
There's probably a lot more. Most children who choose the forbidden fruit don't do so at a whim, but are usually discouraged in a variety of ways before they go this extreme route.
Perhaps "2b" is lacking in many cases. In the families I know, 1, 2, 4, and 5 typically do not apply. 4 isn't there because the kids aren't allowed to associate, in some cases, with anyone at all ... and certainly not unsavory types. So my gut is that "2b" might be the problem.
Nevertheless, here's the thing with 2b. You can explain all you want about how God's laws are good for them, the question is whether they believe that. And there's also the question of whether or not they actually believe what you tell them is law, actually is, or whether it's your own Jansenistic spin on God's law. Some Traditional Catholics do have tendencies towards Jansenism/Puritanism. Or, in the end, even if they do believe it, maybe they just don't care and want what they want regardless.
You know, for all we talk about parenting, the secret ingredient is FREE WILL. You can lead the horse to water, but if the child doesn't want to drink, there's nothing you can do. Judas was around Our Lord and under His direction/guidance, but he was lost too.
More than anything, there's just an overall lack of grace in the world. We're being inundated by the forces of darkness.
But in some cases, honestly, maybe it's not that profound. People want to be loved, and they want to feel loved. Girl meets Boy. Boy tells her how beautiful she is and tells her that he loves her, and acts like it. Or Boy meets Girl. Girls is beautiful and attractive, and affectionate. So they latch on, and Traditional Catholicism be damned, I want to be with this person. Sometimes it's no more profound than that.
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You have never witnessed the "forbidden fruit" syndrome? It's very common when kids go to college. They get their first taste of freedom and then go crazy in overdoing all manner of vices. Kids whose parents do not allow them to consume alcohol, for instance, are generally the most likely to be found throwing up every night / morning in the dorms. For those who have had a little here and there, well, alcohol has less of an allure for them.
I will not list names, but I would say that the majority of Traditional Catholic children in the two chapels near me have gone off the deep end after becoming independent. Several marriages in the Novus Ordo, much sinful cohabitation (sometimes with the fiction of a civil marriage). Many of these are now divorced. Quite a few have ceased practicing the Faith altogether. And, from what I have seen, the more strict their parents were when they were growing up, the farther they strayed. Young men and women who are ultimately called to the married state often become frustrated with the lack of suitable prospects at their relatively-small chapel populations. So, often, the second they find someone to whom they are attracted, they go for it. Very, very common. I think it's healthy for youngsters to mingle in controlled public settings (no exclusive dating) with members of the opposite sex. That way they can develop a sense for the type of person they would be compatible with, and the allure/mystique of the opposite sex quickly wears thin.
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It's a little bit like the theory behind inoculation. The theory behind inoculation is good and sound, and pretty much everyone practices it. The idea is that at some points in life your immune system is weak, at other times, it is strong. When it's weak (e.g. a newborn) you limit exposure to any and all possibilities of disease. But then when your kid is five, you have a chicken pox party. They're stronger, they can "handle it," and it'll be much worse if they have to deal with it as adults. There are of course some things you never expose them to, and you never just carelessly throw them into rooms with diseased people, but to the degree that they are so exposed and supervised through the difficulty, you see them develop an interior strength to help manage and respond to such forces.
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Similarly with morals, it seems that some exposure to the world-- whatever exactly that entails, is obviously up for debate-- is necessary in the interest of the formation of good morals.
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What is strict?
I'm hesitant to give examples lest it reveal people's identities, but I probably need to. I knew one couple who allowed their kids to have NO friends. These poor boys had no social skills whatseover. Consequently, when they got older/independent, they went in the other directions and just wanted friends, regardless of the type.
Another one. Parents were strict. No makeup whatsoever. Makeup was "evil" to them. And their poor daughters, well, let's just say, could have used a little "help" from makeup, to feel attractive. Not that I advocate turning girls into prostitutes, but some girls develop skin conditions (e.g. acne) which makes them feel unattractive. So when the FIRST boy came around who told them how beautiful they were, gone .... SEVERAL examples of this, including a close relative of a priest. Now, as adults, these women prance around in public wearing next to nothing.
I have to be careful with this one so the person's identity isn't revealed. Trad lady, all her children lost the faith. She was very strict, chewing the kids out if they weren't kneeling properly, or, heaven forbid, tried to sit down, when they were tired, say, during a Rosary. Later she admits she was "too strict" and that contributed to loss of faith, but she continues on the same way with other children. It's like she can't help herself, and that lightning from heaven will strike her down if she lets up even a little out of mercy. Sometimes this kind of thing is ego-driven, sometimes it's a scrupulosity thing.
And then multiple examples of (not related to strictness). Hey, I couldn't find a Traditional Catholic at my chapel who's interested in dating, but hey, this extremely nice Novus Ordo man/woman came along, or even a nice, handsome or beautiful non-Catholic. Next thing you know it, gone, some to the Novus Ordo, some to non-practicing.
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The way I’ve heard it explained is that a parent can’t be an authoritarian without having established a positive relationship with the child. If there are rules in absence of love/acceptance, the child will look for love/acceptance other places, which the parent will see as “rebelling”. The child won’t see it as rebelling, they’ll see it as escaping a dictator.
But if the child knows he’s loved and has a relationship with his parents then he’ll trust the rules and be more open to following them.
There's probably a lot to this, Pax. As you said, sometimes it's about children seeking love/acceptance. We all yearn for that naturally. But sometimes, even when they do get this from their parents, they seek a more intimate type of love/acceptance from the opposite sex.
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It's a little bit like the theory behind inoculation. The theory behind inoculation is good and sound, and pretty much everyone practices it. The idea is that at some points in life your immune system is weak, at other times, it is strong. When it's weak (e.g. a newborn) you limit exposure to any and all possibilities of disease. But then when your kid is five, you have a chicken pox party. They're stronger, they can "handle it," and it'll be much worse if they have to deal with it as adults. There are of course some things you never expose them to, and you never just carelessly throw them into rooms with diseased people, but to the degree that they are so exposed and supervised through the difficulty, you see them develop an interior strength to help manage and respond to such forces.
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Similarly with morals, it seems that some exposure to the world-- whatever exactly that entails, is obviously up for debate-- is necessary in the interest of the formation of good morals.
Yes, this is incredibly important. If they can face some of the "bad things" in the world while under your guidance, you can help them work their way through it. We can't expect that our children will live their ENTIRE lives in some Amish-like society bubble. Most of them eventually get jobs. Or they go to college. And, boy, if they haven't encountered vice before that in some measured way, wow will their system be in for a shock at college.
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Let me give you a couple examples of my own personal development.
Initially I thought that I would never allow my girls to wear ANY makeup. I considered it to be wanted by girls only for impure purposes. I grew up with 3 brothers and was out of the house when my one young sister got older (she was 8 when I was gone). And my mother never wore makeup ... not out of principle, but just because she never felt like it. I have four daughters now, and both the older ones, when they hit puberty, developed acne (inherited through their Mom's side). And I was shocked by the degree to which they were derided by their Traditional Catholic female friends. They asked if they could wear some stuff to cover up, and of course I let them. Nothing heavy, but just enough to make them feel not "repugnant". Imagine if I had stuck to my guns, as some Traditional Catholic parents had done, and they spent years and years feeling "repulsive" to other people. That would cause severe emotional and psychological scars for a girl. So I came to the realization that there's nothing inherently wrong with a girl just wanting to feel pretty. And I also realized that 99% of the time, it was in relation to their FEMALE peers, that they wanted to feel pretty, and not because they were trying to "ensnare" some boy. So as long as I don't sense any impure motives, I let them wear some light makeup, just so they can feel pretty. And I let them wear nice clothes (provided they're not in any way immodest) ... instead of imposing the "Little House on the Prairie" look that many Traditional Catholics require of their girls.
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I would encourage every parent to help their child make the 9 First Fridays, or 5 First Saturdays, or Double Great Novena, to the Twin Hearts Together - 9 First Fridays and 9 First Saturdays simultaneously, after confession and a good preparation - shortly after their First Holy Communion. https://www.english.santisimavirgen.com.ar/dos_grandes_novenas_eng.htm The Savior promised those who complete it in their baptismal innocence will never fall into mortal sin all their life - a priceless grace that efficaciously ensures they will not apostatize or fall into other grave sin. Please try the Novena. It is extremely powerful and it works. And in general, the key is to ensure children fall in love with God, and experience His grace right from their youth, especially in Holy Mass and the Holy Eucharist.
I agree with the other suggestions and advice, but God is powerful enough to grant the efficacious grace to overcome any temptation, provided we duly make use of the necessary means to obtain that grace. To obtain perseverance, to triumph over even the possibility of ever committing mortal sin again, a deep experience of the Love of Our Eucharistic Lord in one's infancy or early childhood is a must.
This is the Promise, "12. Those that make this novena in their baptismal innocence (especially the children) will never offend my heart with serious sins." and like all the Lord's promises, He will keep it even if we think He cannot. Teach your children to love and console the Hearts of Jesus and Mary right from their youth, to offer Holy Communion as acts of love and reparation, and keep the First Fridays.
You will find very few other devotions to which such a great grace is promised. To the Way of the Cross said every day, it is granted. To the 3 Hail Marys, said every day morning and night - this is recommended by St. Alphonsus and others - it is also granted. But all these devotions require continual practice on the part of the child, whereas the other can be completed before the children leave home.
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But sometimes, even when they do get this from their parents, they seek a more intimate type of love/acceptance from the opposite sex.
Yes, in this case it's more of a "black sheep" mentality or an adventurous spirit in the child (i.e. a choleric who likes to challenge the rules). But...i've never seen a child who had a good relationship with their parents give up the faith totally. Yes, they could make some horrible decisions and screw up their life immensely but they wouldn't give up religion (or at least not due to hostility. They could give it up due to laziness or for pleasure, but that has nothing to do with the parents and this kind of reason can be overcome by grace - see St Mary Magadalen or St Augustine. But when a person gives up religion due to hatred or "rational" reasons, only the grace of God can overcome this strong emotion).
On the contrary, i've seen some kids (some relatives) who had a bad relationship with their parents (both parent/child were to blame) but otherwise had a great childhood and they gave up religion even though they never did anything crazy or extremely stupid. They were just "blah" towards the whole idea of God. This, of course, was a gradual process, but their foundation for loving God was greatly compromised by their disfunctional family. (Again, this was not all the parent's fault).
Then you have the case of the loving parents but who are strict, not in the sense of not allowing freedom, but who are just "control freaks" and don't know how to "let go" and let their children legitimately experience AND FAIL at life. They don't know how to let a 13 year old decide when/how to do their homework and face the consequences at school (the parents continue to micro-manage the teenager just like they did when he was 3 or 4). If parents don't let their kids make dumb decisions at a young age, they'll make them when they're out of the house at 18 or 20. You can't avoid dumb decisions; you can't avoid life lessons. Failure is the best teacher there is. But you have to let them fail in a controlled environment or else they will fail when no one is around and the consequences are more extreme.
Then there are some kids just have to go wild to figure out the limits of life and experience first-hand the idiocy of their ways (i.e. Prodigal son, St Augustine, St Mary Magdalen, etc).
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But...i've never seen a child who had a good relationship with their parents give up the faith totally. Yes, they could make some horrible decisions and screw up their life immensely but they wouldn't give up religion (or at least not due to hostility. They could give it up due to laziness or for pleasure, but that has nothing to do with the parents and this kind of reason can be overcome by grace - see St Mary Magadalen or St Augustine.
Yes, you're right. When they leave for selfish interests (e.g. pleasure or laziness), they usually stray for a while and then come back. I've known many who strayed for years, even decades, only to snap back to it. Seeds were always there for them to return to. They often find that the allures of the world are not what they were cracked up to be, and that the promises of happiness are empty.
Along the lines of what XavierSem recommended, I made a point of doing the First Saturdays and First Fridays with each of my children right after their First Communion, and I trust that some day they'll be saved.
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Then you have the case of the loving parents but who are strict, not in the sense of not allowing freedom, but who are just "control freaks" and don't know how to "let go" and let their children legitimately experience AND FAIL at life. They don't know how to let a 13 year old decide when/how to do their homework and face the consequences at school (the parents continue to micro-manage the teenager just like they did when he was 3 or 4). If parents don't let their kids make dumb decisions at a young age, they'll make them when they're out of the house at 18 or 20. You can't avoid dumb decisions; you can't avoid life lessons. Failure is the best teacher there is. But you have to let them fail in a controlled environment or else they will fail when no one is around and the consequences are more extreme.
That philosophy of letting them suffer the consequences of their own decisions is behind this particular system --
https://www.loveandlogic.com/
I can't entirely recommend it because it's imbued with Protestant errors, but the core of it is just what you describe. Letting consequences teach the lessons.
Of course, one has to limit the field of play somewhat. I'm not going to let my children go out and fornicate and then, say, "well, let them deal with an illegitimate child." This Prot series doesn't draw that line. You do have to protect them and prevent the graver things, but on a micro-level, I agree that it's important.
Of course, even in school, you don't want them to flush their lives down the toilet either, so you want to get on the a little about school work. But if they blow off school and graduate with a 2.0 and end up not being able to support a family. Sometimes adults are necessary to give them the perspective they lack at their own age.
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Agree. I think the Protestants are way ahead of the curve on working together and learning from each other to solve 'natural law' problems. Sometimes Trads get distracted with micro-managing children "to make them saints" and forget the basics of normal parenting.
I listed to a radio show about a couple that experimented with how to teach their kids to handle money. They decided to give their 10 year old son a monthly stipend and tell them they had to use it for 1) new shoes for the upcoming year and 2) an upcoming birthday present for a friend's party. They told the child that it was his decision on how to spend the money and they would take him to the stores he wanted to go to. The child asked to be taken to the toy store and spent 80% of the money on a toy (the parents were freaking out, but they let him do it). When it came time for school and the birthday party, the child didn't get new shoes and bought his friend some small gift. But he learned his lesson.
Long story short, the parents used/modified this system all the way into high school (and eventually wrote a book about it) so that their children learned the value of money, how to budget and find "deals" (i.e. shopping at goodwill). Both kids worked through college and paid for their first cars with cash. This is a good example of parents letting their children fail in a safe environment. It's also easier to do this type of thing with only 2-3 kids (i.e. most protestant families) but still, where there's a will, there's a way.
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I just want to say, that if I had a special "Moderator's Choice" award to give to 12 threads each year, giving them special prominence on the home page, etc. this thread would be getting one.
This is about the most important subject there is today, and it's a subject that hits very close to home for me, being a family man myself.
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From my 60+ years experience, 39 years as a wild man, 25+ years as a traditionalist, and of those 25 years, 17 years as a father, I know the world side very well. I was a king in that world, an alfa male wolf, now I am a shepherd. Domesticated wolves make good shepherds of daughters, because they know all the male tricks and in my case I know the female weaknesses. I have almost all girls, 5+, and few boys. Below is a list of the errors that I see parents making today , but first, I will speak of a family which is
the example of what a Catholic family can accomplish and the goal:
I have known a family of 10+ children, the mother is the one that really raised the children in the faith. She homeschooled them to the 7th to 9th grade, and by the providence of God, people gave her the money to pay for the education of all the children from 7th, 8th, 9th till graduation from high school. They all went to SSPX schools. She was very strict with the children and taught them the faith. She slaved over the children all her life and the children knew it. She was not the loving type in the sense of communicating her love verbally, but she showed it in her actions. All her children are now married to what I consider excellent wives and husbands, I could not ask for better for my children, in fact, I think it would be difficult to find the same quality. In the case of this woman, she did her job and God provided her with whatever she needed. One gift from God was that all the boys ( and the girls) were put to work by someone else (In many cases, the same person who later paid their education) from the time they were old enough to hold the other end of a 2x4, or fold clothes. As they grew in their working knowledge they became professionals in many fields. The mother always relied on God's Providence to provide what she could not, and she worked like a slave. God gave her everything. She was an example to my wife and I. She was strict, but there is much more to it, than being strict.
My list of the errors that I see parents making today
#1 - they do not know the why of the faith, and thus they teach the children the faith by force, or send them to a teacher. I call this the "ask Fr." syndrome, anything you want to know just ask Father. Their knowledge of religion is superficial, and never gets past it, because they can just ask Father. The children's faith will be just as superficial, never having learned the "why's", and as soon as it is challenged, they go with the world.
#2 - the parents do the same with everything else one needs to know about life. They do not teach the why's of working, life (our purpose in life), politics/government, manners, civility, culture...
#3 - the parents do not talk to their children nor listen to what they are talking about, nor observe how their children behave with their peers and adults. Thus they know nothing about their own children.
#4 - Some trad parents are so preoccupied with teaching the faith to strangers (even writing books, and lecturing) about subjects like Novus Ordo heresy, sedevacantes, Jews, Masons..... , while they pay no attention to what they can control, their children.
#5 - mothers (and fathers) because they were lucky to find a good mate by "cheating" (going out with persons of the opposite sex by themselves. Having pre-marital kissing, fondling, intercourse), think that their children will have the same luck. So, they allow their children to use the same methods. This is a big one, very common for all the wrongs the children fall into.
I'll leave it that that for now.
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#1 - they do not know the why of the faith, and thus they teach the children the faith by force, or send them to a teacher. I call this the "ask Fr." syndrome, anything you want to know just ask Father. Their knowledge of religion is superficial, and never gets past it, because they can just ask Father. The children's faith will be just as superficial, never having learned the "why's", and as soon as it is challenged, they go with the world.
#2 - the parents do the same with everything else one needs to know about life. They do not teach the why's of working, life (our purpose in life), politics/government, manners, civility, culture...
#3 - the parents do not talk to their children nor listen to what they are talking about, nor observe how their children behave with their peers and adults. Thus they know nothing about their own children.
#1 is very important to us. And #2 by extension. Mainly it's because I remember my own parents relearning the Faith and explaining to us as they learned. Those things always stuck with me more than anything I learned in a book. It doesn't have to feel like a Catechism class or a sermon and it shouldn't really; just having these discussions as a normal part of family life goes a long way. It feels like it takes a lot of thought and wisdom to converse this way but that's where parents learn to put a lot of confidence in the Holy Ghost! I think #3 naturally happens when working on #1-2 because such discussions build relationships and each learns how the other thinks.
"Ask Father" syndrome sounds like a good way to put it. With parents sending their children to schools and working all day, then being too tired when they are all gathered in the evenings, it's too easy for parents to forget that we are the primary educators. Fatigue or laziness tempts us to depend too much on our authority over the children and not enough on our role as teachers. We can mentally check out while yelling at kids and forcing them to do what we want but it takes real mental and physical engagement to teach.
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Ditto on the #1. I've never really liked the "Baltimore Catechism" approach for children. Certainly some things just need to be committed to memory, but if you never get past regurgitation, that faith will have shallow roots and will be easily uprooted. I actually find some of the Baltimore Catechism answers to be badly worded and to give a wrong idea about the faith. In any case, I especially enjoy shredding the Protestants and the Modernists. My kids occasionally run into Prots or Modernist Novus Ordites, and I enjoy dismantling their positions to the point of ridiculing them and explaining how they are arrived at in bad faith. At least now my kids bring this stuff home and I can address it, whereas it may be more difficult if they're out on their own. So, for instance, my older kids know how utterly absurd evolution is (don't tell Banezian), to the point that they consider people who believe in it to be idiots. I also excoriate the private lives of all the Prot "reformers" to the point that my kids are disgusted by the Prot religion.
PS -- I'm not saying that my kids are perfect. Quite the contrary. I would consider it a miracle if most of them stayed on the "straight and narrow" most of their lives.
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this is a very important post. thank you for starting it.
I liked very much reading St. Bosco, who care for boys. Our Lady inspired him, directed him.
Two points Our Lady made, that I recall the most: Children need interaction with parent. To play basketball, cooking together, just doing things together that makes for conversation, laughing and being serious. This interaction is important, so child and parent get to know each other. Our Lady gave Don Bosco a dream of the future: teachers standing off and students playing ball. Don Bosco asked, "why are the teachers not interacting?" Our Lady said, "this is the future, that you see."
Our Lady also said it is very important who interacts with your student, that is friends. They need good friends, beware of their company!
Children need parents who live their faith. It shows.
Thank God we still have sacraments/Precious Blood. It is So Saving!
I listened to a friend, yesterday, remembering the ways of New Order, that are nauseating. Grown men saying, "We go to the Saturday mass for Sunday, "to get it over with!" Nasty! Grown men wearing shorts.
I am not against men, for women can do and think the same.
I do look up to Captain Kangaroo. He would end his show saying," Give the children what they want most, Your Time". I took this very serious as a mother. Kids want to go to the park, then let's do it when we get some chores done and finish when we return. Like a doctor once told my mother of 9 children, let the dishes go, find time to relax, say that rosary, read some meditations.
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Let me give you a couple examples of my own personal development.
Initially I thought that I would never allow my girls to wear ANY makeup. I considered it to be wanted by girls only for impure purposes. I grew up with 3 brothers and was out of the house when my one young sister got older (she was 8 when I was gone). And my mother never wore makeup ... not out of principle, but just because she never felt like it. I have four daughters now, and both the older ones, when they hit puberty, developed acne (inherited through their Mom's side). And I was shocked by the degree to which they were derided by their Traditional Catholic female friends. They asked if they could wear some stuff to cover up, and of course I let them. Nothing heavy, but just enough to make them feel not "repugnant". Imagine if I had stuck to my guns, as some Traditional Catholic parents had done, and they spent years and years feeling "repulsive" to other people. That would cause severe emotional and psychological scars for a girl. So I came to the realization that there's nothing inherently wrong with a girl just wanting to feel pretty. And I also realized that 99% of the time, it was in relation to their FEMALE peers, that they wanted to feel pretty, and not because they were trying to "ensnare" some boy. So as long as I don't sense any impure motives, I let them wear some light makeup, just so they can feel pretty. And I let them wear nice clothes (provided they're not in any way immodest) ... instead of imposing the "Little House on the Prairie" look that many Traditional Catholics require of their girls.
I know an SSPX priest who used to say women who did not wear makeup were forcing us ALL into a penance. Lol. God bless him for his sanity!
Ladies, please wear makeup!
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So women as God created them are not beautiful, but are ugly. They are so ugly that they have to cover their faces with masks of creams and chemicals and paint their faces just to be presentable. In fact women are so ugly as God created them that it is actually a "penance" to look at their faces without makeup.
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See what a tough spot the poor ladies are in. Some Traditional Catholics say that they can't wear makeup without coming off as prostitutes. Some say they are ugly without makeup. So how can they win?
I saw a video made by a poor lady. She showed herself without makeup ... with a lot of acne. She put the picture somewhere on social media, and the comments where absolutely horrible ... just gut-wrenchingly cruel. "What's wrong with your face? You're repulsive." etc. etc. Then she put on makeup. It started with people telling her how beautiful she was, but then ended up with people denouncing her for being "fake" and "committing fraud".
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See what a tough spot the poor ladies are in. Some Traditional Catholics say that they can't wear makeup without coming off as prostitutes. Some say they are ugly without makeup. So how can they win?
I saw a video made by a poor lady. She showed herself without makeup ... with a lot of acne. She put the picture somewhere on social media, and the comments where absolutely horrible ... just gut-wrenchingly cruel. "What's wrong with your face? You're repulsive." etc. etc. Then she put on makeup. It started with people telling her how beautiful she was, but then ended up with people denouncing her for being "fake" and "committing fraud".
The majority of men and women throughout the world do not know where their next meal is coming, or whether they will freeze to death of be eaten by a crocodile or raped, killed, beaten to a pulp. Today 80,000 children will be snuffed out by infanticide. I think women and men in rich countries should think twice about complaining about their gnats of life.
I tell that to my children whenever they complain about their nothings.
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Let me give you a couple examples of my own personal development.
Initially I thought that I would never allow my girls to wear ANY makeup. I considered it to be wanted by girls only for impure purposes. I grew up with 3 brothers and was out of the house when my one young sister got older (she was 8 when I was gone). And my mother never wore makeup ... not out of principle, but just because she never felt like it. I have four daughters now, and both the older ones, when they hit puberty, developed acne (inherited through their Mom's side). And I was shocked by the degree to which they were derided by their Traditional Catholic female friends. They asked if they could wear some stuff to cover up, and of course I let them. Nothing heavy, but just enough to make them feel not "repugnant". Imagine if I had stuck to my guns, as some Traditional Catholic parents had done, and they spent years and years feeling "repulsive" to other people. That would cause severe emotional and psychological scars for a girl. So I came to the realization that there's nothing inherently wrong with a girl just wanting to feel pretty. And I also realized that 99% of the time, it was in relation to their FEMALE peers, that they wanted to feel pretty, and not because they were trying to "ensnare" some boy. So as long as I don't sense any impure motives, I let them wear some light makeup, just so they can feel pretty. And I let them wear nice clothes (provided they're not in any way immodest) ... instead of imposing the "Little House on the Prairie" look that many Traditional Catholics require of their girls.
Make up is an art these days..... I mean I could barely apply eyeliner at 10, and there are 10 year olds with creased eyeshadow in perfect form.
I just wanted to say I think it’s amazing you see/understand this for your daughters. They are absolutely blessed to have such an understanding dad!
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The majority of men and women throughout the world do not know where their next meal is coming, or whether they will freeze to death of be eaten by a crocodile or raped, killed, beaten to a pulp. Today 80,000 children will be snuffed out by infanticide. I think women and men in rich countries should think twice about complaining about their gnats of life.
I tell that to my children whenever they complain about their nothings.
I don't know, man. This seems a bit heartless. More than even security, the deepest need people have, especially children growing up, is to feel loved and wanted. And girls have the need more than boys. What do you think it would do to a girl to be constantly told she's repulsive? At some point, it would be easy for her to question whether anyone, including God, could love someone like her.
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I don't know, man. This seems a bit heartless. More than even security, the deepest need people have, especially children growing up, is to feel loved and wanted. And girls have the need more than boys. What do you think it would do to a girl to be constantly told she's repulsive? At some point, it would be easy for her to question whether anyone, including God, could love someone like her.
What does that have to do with what I wrote in regard to your posting? Where did you see me write that I told my girls that they are not loved and wanted and that they are repulsive?
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I mean I could barely apply eyeliner at 10, and there are 10 year olds with creased eyeshadow in perfect form.
I just wanted to say I think it’s amazing you see/understand this for your daughters. They are absolutely blessed to have such an understanding dad!
I doubt his 10 year old's are wearing makeup. A 10 year old girl should not be wearing makeup. My oldest daughter was just allowed to wear light makeup at 16.
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What does that have to do with what I wrote in regard to your posting? Where did you see me write that I told my girls that they are not loved and wanted and that they are repulsive?
You basically dismissed my comments that girls are in a tough spot ... with even Traditional Catholic men seeking girls primarily for their looks, while other Traditional Catholics denounce them as prostitutes if they try to enhance their appearance a little for makeup ... that they're getting mixed signals ... with the comment that they need to suck it up, since some people in the world can't even find food. I wouldn't respond to my girls that way if they told me they were upset at being considered unattractive or even repulsive on account of their acne.
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I wouldn't respond to my girls that way if they told me they were upset at being considered unattractive or even repulsive on account of their acne.
Neither would I.
Ask questions before you make comments like that.
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I saw a video made by a poor lady. She showed herself without makeup ... with a lot of acne. She put the picture somewhere on social media, and the comments where absolutely horrible ... just gut-wrenchingly cruel. "What's wrong with your face? You're repulsive." etc. etc. Then she put on makeup. It started with people telling her how beautiful she was, but then ended up with people denouncing her for being "fake" and "committing fraud".
She should not have put the picture in social media.
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From what I see many trad families on eastcoast are living double lives. Holy and innocent on Sunday's and holy days and hell raisers during week.
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I'm still trying to figure out why so many trad cats marry non Christian?
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I'm still trying to figure out why so many trad cats marry non Christian?
Slim Pickens! In my old chapel I had a choice of three men, one was 32 years my senior and unemployed. The other two were closer in age but both physically and mentally challenged. That's why I'm a spinster.
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I'm still trying to figure out why so many trad cats marry non Christian?
When I came back to the Church at 40, all I did was stay focused on learning the faith and doing God's will in everything. As far as marriage, the thought didn't come into my mind, I was too busy learning the faith. My mother told me I'd never meet anyone living like I was living my life; work, exercise, studying the faith, and going to a small chapel with no young girls. I told her that I was doing my job, and that I'd let God sort out the rest. One day my future wife showed up, a trad Catholic.
Do your job and let God sort out the rest. Trust in Him and do not compromise.
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More than even security, the deepest need people have, especially children growing up, is to feel loved and wanted. And girls have the need more than boys. What do you think it would do to a girl to be constantly told she's repulsive? At some point, it would be easy for her to question whether anyone, including God, could love someone like her.
I doubt there are literally multiple people telling any young lady that she's repulsive. There might be an incident from a particularly rude individual, but most likely it's only HER telling herself that she needs to look differently.
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I agree with your premise that girls especially need to feel loved and wanted, but would not be so quick to concede that a little makeup is what will best address those needs.
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I doubt there are literally multiple people telling any young lady that she's repulsive.
You doubt wrong. Perhaps your daughters don't interact as much with other girls since you're out on a relatively-remote property. Kids are more vicious than ever these days.
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I agree with your premise that girls especially need to feel loved and wanted, but would not be so quick to concede that a little makeup is what will best address those needs.
Have you or your daughters ever had serious acne problems? Do you know what that's like? Do you know much much a little makeup could help that?
I reject as nonsense this sanctimonious view that many Traditional Catholics have that they have to dress their daughters (notice that this is usually limited to the girls) in the manner of "Little House on the Prairie" and refuse to let them look pretty and feminine.
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Have you or your daughters ever had serious acne problems? Do you know what that's like? Do you know much much a little makeup could help that?
I reject as nonsense this sanctimonious view that many Traditional Catholics have that they have to dress their daughters (notice that this is usually limited to the girls) in the manner of "Little House on the Prairie" and refuse to let them look pretty and feminine.
Agreed.
Nothing worse than Trads in their Little House on the Prairie costumes.
Michael Matt once wrote they make Catholicism look like hell on earth.
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Have you or your daughters ever had serious acne problems? Do you know what that's like? Do you know much much a little makeup could help that?
I reject as nonsense this sanctimonious view that many Traditional Catholics have that they have to dress their daughters (notice that this is usually limited to the girls) in the manner of "Little House on the Prairie" and refuse to let them look pretty and feminine.
They're not old enough, but I've had acne my entire life and have never worn makeup or been told by anyone that I'm repulsive.
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Clothing is necessary and we wear a wide variety of it, but makeup is not something that's the norm in our immediate or extended family. There are exceptions, of course, but it's not a given that being female means you must "put your face on" before engaging with the outside world.
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You doubt wrong. Perhaps your daughters don't interact as much with other girls since you're out on a relatively-remote property. Kids are more vicious than ever these days.
We're not that remote. My older daughters are out 3x per week for extracurricular activities among other kids. We've not yet dealt with any even remotely rude children or parents. But, along those same lines, I've never had anyone make a rude comment about the size of my family. So, perhaps it's a southern vs. northern thing or a small town vs. big city thing.
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But, along those same lines, I've never had anyone make a rude comment about the size of my family.
Yes, my wife and I get the snide comments regularly about this. When you get out, is it in homeschooling groups? People there tend to have larger families themselves.
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Yes, my wife and I get the snide comments regularly about this. When you get out, is it in homeschooling groups? People there tend to have larger families themselves.
We don't do much with the homeschool groups (where, actually, the large families are only slightly less rare). Our regular activities are open to the general public. The only way they're a step above the standard public school crowd is that you have to have parents involved enough to show up for things like music classes and maker clubs outside school hours.
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So maybe it is more of a Texas thing ... to be a little more open to larger families.
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So maybe it is more of a Texas thing ... to be a little more open to larger families.
It is, especially if you live in a more rural town. There are plenty of people with 4 children. The 1or 2 max on children that Trads deride everyone for is more like 3 or 4, sometimes going up to 5 and 6 - but that is less common. People also seem to marry early out here, like in their early to mid twenties.
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The ICKSP puts on a young adults retreat each year. I went to the one back in August, it was very good. Refined, dignified.
I thought it was a good example of healthy interaction between young men and women within a safe context. I think things like these prevent the "Forbidden Fruit disorder" or whatever you called it, from coming to be.
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Slim Pickens! In my old chapel I had a choice of three men, one was 32 years my senior and unemployed. The other two were closer in age but both physically and mentally challenged. That's why I'm a spinster.
In the age of the internet, there is no excuse to be a spinster, even for a Trad.
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In the age of the internet, there is no excuse to be a spinster, even for a Trad.
Long distance relationships rarely work out well. I wonder if they offer mail-order husbands from the Far East?
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Long distance relationships rarely work out well. I wonder if they offer mail-order husbands from the Far East?
Perhaps pilgrimages or retreats could be held at locations where singles could meet.
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I met my husband at a Thanksgiving dinner party sponsored by the church for singles. Best investment ever! We were all asked to bring the trimmings, salads, bread rolls, and desserts. There was a sign up list so that we all did not bring the traditional pumpkin or apple pie. My husband was not Catholic at that time. He was there to find a wife, and he found me. :)
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In the age of the internet, there is no excuse to be a spinster, even for a Trad.
One does not need an excuse to be unmarried.