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Author Topic: Trads and feminism  (Read 3508 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Trads and feminism
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2018, 01:18:14 PM »
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    However, I don’t reject all authority based on my fear of authority’s abuses. That is where I think we differ. 
    Where did I say, or imply, that I reject the court's authority, or ANY govt authority?  I didn't.

    You're missing the point that a prenup is a CONTRACT whereby the 2 spouses agree how to split assets FAIRLY in the case of divorce.  If there isn't one, then THE COURTS GET TO DECIDE how to split up assets.  Since the courts are FEMINIST, they are BIASED AGAINST MEN, therefore men get screwed.  It's not complicated.

    If you were in school and a certain teacher always picked on you and treated you unfairly, if someone stole your lunch money, are you going to complain to the teacher who isn't fair to you, or are you going to find a teacher that is impartial?  Of course, you're going to avoid a teacher, who time and again mistrusts you, disbelieves you and thinks you're a bad kid.  So, a prenup seeks for spouses to decide how to FAIRLY split assets WHILE THEY LOVE EACH OTHER, in order to avoid the BIASED courts and also the EMOTIONAL RESENTMENT that divorce brings.  


    Offline Vintagewife3

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    Re: Trads and feminism
    « Reply #16 on: July 02, 2018, 01:21:45 PM »
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  • There have been a whole bunch of threads about women and marriage lately and I am wondering if we are working from the same underlying assumptions.  I am going to put out a bunch of propositions to see whether people agree or not.

    1. Feminism is evil and pervasive throughout Western society.

    2. Feminism pits men and women against each other.

    3. Feminism promotes a false understanding of men's and women's roles in marriage and in society.

    4. Trads, even those who disagree with feminism, are subtly influenced by it.

    5. Women need to be alert to feminism within ourselves and constantly fighting against it.
    So, I’ve always thought there was a difference between today’s feminist, and the first suffragettes. Today’s feminist are just... well, they aren’t even women anymore. That being said I’ve always agreed with past suffragette thinking on equality. But are they one in the same? It came across that suffragettes wanted the same equal rights, while keeping the men at the head. 


    Todays feminist definitely out men against women, and women against women. If you don’t agree even on small factors with them you are the enemy.


    That being said the pre-nup thing is making more sense now. But what would protect a woman if the man decides to leave her with his pre-nup? 



    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Trads and feminism
    « Reply #17 on: July 02, 2018, 01:39:59 PM »
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    Practicing virtue is the solutuion to all this fem nonsense. Feminism would all but disappear if we women were more diligent growing in virtue and improving our states. We do need to take it seriously and work on ourselves while we learn and grow. It would help a wife very much to have a husband that encourages while she learns to overcome her errors, but many of us do not have that so it is more difficult and sometimes takes a little longer. 
    Practicing virtue is only PART of the solution.  Feminism is a religious AND SOCIAL problem.  The fact that many good, traditional wives/women are still feminist proves the fact that it is more than just a spiritual error, it is a philosophy, a lifestyle, an attitude.  Some of this can be fixed by prayer, some of it must be fixed by a REORDERING OF SOCIETY.  

    Here is a (short) list of things that women do, that are feminist.  Many won't change these practices because they argue that "technically, they aren't sinful", so these practices persist.  But they are highly feminist and destructive to society.  And they are born of a feminist/rebellious attitude, which is hard to change.

    1.  Wearing pants/mens clothes.  This is a sign the woman hates her nature and wants to be a man/independent/free.  
    2.  Living alone or outside of the parents house, if not married (assuming your parents are alive).  This just isn't natural, has never been and never will be.  It is a sign of independence and a wanting to be free of authority, which women are not designed to have, nor are they able to handle.
    3.  Instructing, correcting, arguing with men (who are not their children).  Women are not designed for this role in life.  A debate such as those on this forum is often friendly and worthwhile for all genders (but many women can't even handle these discussions, or at least they are practically worthless, because they miss many of the teaching points as they internalize most things and cannot grasp abstract arguments and philosophical principles).  A woman who is too interested in intellectual matters (in general, not always) is a sign they are feminized and want to be a man.  At least, if they are of an intellectual bent, they should study/learn from a wise man, so their studies won't be wasted or corrupted.

    I can't wait for the downvotes!!

    p.s. I've noticed that, for these topics, the only time I get any upvotes is when I mention a man's failings ALONG WITH a woman's failings.  Of course men have many failings and we could create AN ENTIRE WEBSITE to deal with those, but we're SPECIFICALLY talking about feminism here, and women particularly.  It's another proof that women can't have unemotional, rational discussions on this topic, since they can't admit they are wrong UNLESS someone else admits they're also wrong.  Very immature and very feminist.  

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Trads and feminism
    « Reply #18 on: July 02, 2018, 01:48:10 PM »
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  • So, I’ve always thought there was a difference between today’s feminist, and the first suffragettes. Today’s feminist are just... well, they aren’t even women anymore. That being said I’ve always agreed with past suffragette thinking on equality. But are they one in the same? It came across that suffragettes wanted the same equal rights, while keeping the men at the head.
    There were problems with the suffragettes too, although not as bad as today's feminists.  

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Trads and feminism
    « Reply #19 on: July 02, 2018, 01:54:44 PM »
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  • Here is a (short) list of things that women do, that are feminist.  Many won't change these practices because they argue that "technically, they aren't sinful", so these practices persist.  But they are highly feminist and destructive to society.  And they are born of a feminist/rebellious attitude, which is hard to change.

    1.  Wearing pants/mens clothes.  This is a sign the woman hates her nature and wants to be a man/independent/free.  
    2.  Living alone or outside of the parents house, if not married (assuming your parents are alive).  This just isn't natural, has never been and never will be.  It is a sign of independence and a wanting to be free of authority, which women are not designed to have, nor are they able to handle.
    3.  Instructing, correcting, arguing with men (who are not their children).  Women are not designed for this role in life.  A debate such as those on this forum is often friendly and worthwhile for all genders (but many women can't even handle these discussions, or at least they are practically worthless, because they miss many of the teaching points as they internalize most things and cannot grasp abstract arguments and philosophical principles).  A woman who is too interested in intellectual matters (in general, not always) is a sign they are feminized and want to be a man.  At least, if they are of an intellectual bent, they should study/learn from a wise man, so their studies won't be wasted or corrupted.
    I really appreciate this kind of practical specific advise.  It helps me to figure out what actions I can take in my own life when I see things like this.  This is more useful than dealing with abstractions and theories all the time.

    I especially like point number 3 because this is an area that I struggle with.  I am naturally argumentative and also inclined to be interested in intellectual matters.

    Thank you.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Trads and feminism
    « Reply #20 on: July 02, 2018, 02:09:10 PM »
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    While feminism may have started out as primarily women against men, the natural response of men has been to oppose women.  

    Just like Eve sinned first and then corrupted Adam, so feminism corrupted women first and then the women have corrupted men/children/society.

    Most men, even today with the thick cloud of feminism everywhere, STILL do not oppose women.  What men oppose are MASCULINE women because men naturally respect, admire and protect a feminine woman.  It's in the nature of a man to want to guard her from evil, and help her...if she LETS HIM guard and protect her.  A feminist wants to control a man, and any situation, instead of allowing herself to be protected and cared for.  Feminism destroys women's trust of men and of herself; it destroys women's natural feminine qualities of being passive, accepting and trusting.

    When women ACT MASCULINE (i.e. not passive, but assertive/aggressive.  Not accepting, but hyper-critical and complaining.  Not trusting but controlling and obsessive.), then men have an auto/instinctive response to such masculine attitudes.  If men are faced with aggression, they will respond with aggression to either avoid the threat or to conquer the threat.

    If men are faced with a controlling attitude, or disrespect, their natural response is to assert control and challenge the disrespect.

    If men are faced with criticism and complaining, they ignore it or pick apart the illogical and emotional attributes of such comments.

    Men don't think about these reaction; they just react.  If women act this way over a long term time frame, then men will stop TRYING to treat them as women, since they are clearly acting as men.



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    In fact, in some ways, feminism is more harmful to men over the long run.  Men are intended by God to be the leaders, but feminism has emasculated them.  
    Long term feminist attitudes will affect some men, but not all.  Feminism has affected over 90% of women in some way; it has not affected that many men.  Men's natures are inherently stable.  Their vices are the same throughout history and don't change that much - violence, drinking, womanizing, debauchery, etc.  The devil knows this and the Church knows this, which is why the devil tempted Eve and why the Church's Nuptial Blessing is primarily for women.

    Most of the modern problems of men relate to the over-indulgence in fun, irresponsibility and immoral pleasures.  This has always been men's downfall and it still is.  The growth of feminism hasn't changed this, it has only destroyed the sacrament of marriage, and the family, which is one of the main vehicles by which fallen men are socially reconstructed.  Marriage can teach a wayward, lazy man that hard work, responsibility and lawful pleasure is worth fighting for and sacrificing for, when he sees the joys/innocence of children and the loving acceptance of his wife and their needs.

    Feminism, however, destroys marriage and society, because women have the attitude that 1) I don't need men to help me.  2) I'm independent.  3) Assertiveness and agressiveness are the best ways to get what I want.  Feminism teaches women to act like men, so men are not motivated to treat them like women (and they wouldn't appreciate it anyways) but they ARE motivated (subconsciously) to treat masculine woman AS COMPETITION.  So men stop leading and women get frustrated, and society is a mess, both inside marriage and outside it too.

    Offline Vintagewife3

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    Re: Trads and feminism
    « Reply #21 on: July 02, 2018, 02:15:31 PM »
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  • I really appreciate this kind of practical specific advise.  It helps me to figure out what actions I can take in my own life when I see things like this.  This is more useful than dealing with abstractions and theories all the time.

    I especially like point number 3 because this is an area that I struggle with.  I am naturally argumentative and also inclined to be interested in intellectual matters.

    Thank you.
    I actually really appreciated this too, but didn’t voice it! It made things super simple. I  love a good argument, and can pick one over anything.
    I keep thinking if you guys sat in on my marriage you’d think I’m more feminist then I mean to be. Somehow it just got settled between i is I make the most choices/big decisions especially with the kids. He made the choice to finally buy the house, but I was not pushing that since I’m not the one working. That stress rest only on him. He pays the bills, works, and comes and goes as he pleases. I pretty much do everything else.. but I’m not trying to order him around, or boss him. It’s just how it happened.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Trads and feminism
    « Reply #22 on: July 02, 2018, 02:37:59 PM »
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  • Whoever is downvoting Vintagewife, please give her explanations about why you are doing so.  She is new to the forum and apparently to traditional Catholicism as well.  She says that she wants to learn.  Just giving downvotes doesn't help people very much with figuring out what they are getting wrong.

    I'm hoping that somebody can give her advice on how to improve her obedience to her husband.  I was trying to think of something to say but decided I better leave it to somebody wiser than me.


    Offline Vintagewife3

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    Re: Trads and feminism
    « Reply #23 on: July 02, 2018, 02:46:58 PM »
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  • Whoever is downvoting Vintagewife, please give her explanations about why you are doing so.  She is new to the forum and apparently to traditional Catholicism as well.  She says that she wants to learn.  Just giving downvotes doesn't help people very much with figuring out what they are getting wrong.

    I'm hoping that somebody can give her advice on how to improve her obedience to her husband.  I was trying to think of something to say but decided I better leave it to somebody wiser than me.
    I appreciate this. I’m super serious about about learning...
    I’m super supportive of him. I want us to have a good marriage. I’ve been very honest about who I am, and I’m not trying to cause any trouble.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Trads and feminism
    « Reply #24 on: July 02, 2018, 02:56:36 PM »
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  • Don’t take downvotes personally.  Most of the time the person doesn’t understand why they disagree.  

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Trads and feminism
    « Reply #25 on: July 02, 2018, 03:02:18 PM »
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  • Good point.  The dictionary definition of feminism is usually something like "the advocacy of women's rights on the basis of the equality of the sexes" and that is not what it really is.

    Feminism is a variation of Marxism which replaces class warfare between the bourgeois and proletariat with a war between men and women.  Judgments are based on what class people belong to rather than their actions as individuals.

    This is far more insidious than merely saying that the sexes are equal.  There are even some senses in which it is true to say that the sexes are equal, as in, men and women are equal in dignity or equal in their need for salvation through Christ. (Of course, husband and wife are NOT equal in authority within marriage.)
    Great points! The only thing I would add is that cultural Marxism also seeks to destroy both the Church and the Family. Gender neutrality is Feminism 2.0 -- the next step in their plan to further social chaos.
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary


    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Re: Trads and feminism
    « Reply #26 on: July 02, 2018, 03:18:42 PM »
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  • Great points! The only thing I would add is that cultural Marxism also seeks to destroy both the Church and the Family. Gender neutrality is Feminism 2.0 -- the next step in their plan to further social chaos.

    In case you didn't know, State marriage licenses are inherently Marxist.

    Also, to oppose the husband as the sole authority on what is equitable within the family and between spouses, is to embrace Marxist ideals. The sneaky ones posture with "Catholic piety" which is really an infusing of "equality" into the marriage so the wife has as much determination over the money, assets & wealth in the household than the husband. They proceed to call this, "husbands loving, honoring & protecting their wives". Finally, they LARP about being "Catholic Monarchists" and "supporters of patriarchy", both of which are intrinsically opposite to equality and women having as much control over the financial resources as the husband.
    Blessed be the Lord my God, who teacheth my hands to fight, and my fingers to war. ~ Psalms 143:1 (Douay-Rheims)

    Offline Vintagewife3

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    Re: Trads and feminism
    « Reply #27 on: July 02, 2018, 04:03:12 PM »
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  • In case you didn't know, State marriage licenses are inherently Marxist.

    Also, to oppose the husband as the sole authority on what is equitable within the family and between spouses, is to embrace Marxist ideals. The sneaky ones posture with "Catholic piety" which is really an infusing of "equality" into the marriage so the wife has as much determination over the money, assets & wealth in the household than the husband. They proceed to call this, "husbands loving, honoring & protecting their wives". Finally, they LARP about being "Catholic Monarchists" and "supporters of patriarchy", both of which are intrinsically opposite to equality and women having as much control over the financial resources as the husband.
    So, pretty much if I say anything about the money that makes me a feminist? 

    Offline SusanneT

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    Re: Trads and feminism
    « Reply #28 on: July 02, 2018, 04:36:38 PM »
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  • There have been a whole bunch of threads about women and marriage lately and I am wondering if we are working from the same underlying assumptions.  I am going to put out a bunch of propositions to see whether people agree or not.

    1. Feminism is evil and pervasive throughout Western society.

    2. Feminism pits men and women against each other.

    3. Feminism promotes a false understanding of men's and women's roles in marriage and in society.

    4. Trads, even those who disagree with feminism, are subtly influenced by it.

    5. Women need to be alert to feminism within ourselves and constantly fighting against it.
    Broadly I would agree although I would probably stress the damage caused by what is an inherently evil and unGodly ideology to both men, women and especially girls. 

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Trads and feminism
    « Reply #29 on: July 02, 2018, 06:48:48 PM »
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  • Practicing virtue is only PART of the solution.  Feminism is a religious AND SOCIAL problem.

    2.  Living alone or outside of the parents house, if not married (assuming your parents are alive).  This just isn't natural, has never been and never will be.  It is a sign of independence and a wanting to be free of authority, which women are not designed to have, nor are they able to handle.

    I can't wait for the downvotes!!
    Because feminism is a religious problem, it cannot help but affect all aspects of life.  They feed into each other and maintain a disordered society.  A woman may not be a feminist at heart, or desire to act like a feminist, but unless she is a cloistered nun in a traditional order, she is pretty much forced to act in a feminist manner in some respects to survive.  
    I have no desire to be a feminist, however, I live in "violation" of your second precept, and have done so since age 18.  Why?  I grew up in a marginally novus ordo Catholic home, one that held to high moral standards in many areas, but one tainted by Americanism.  When the children, male or female, turned 18, they were expected to leave the nest.  The economic conditions at that time were favorable to becoming self-supporting with a job requiring only high school, sometimes less.  
    I struggled my way through to two Master's degrees on full-time + part-time jobs, always assuming I'd eventually get married.  That never happened, so here I am at age 60 working a full-time job and moonlighting at odd jobs to survive, pretty much as I have since my mid-twenties.  My siblings and extended family abandoned Church, religion, morality decades ago.  There is nobody with whom I could live--or would want to live, even if offered!  My parents are living but I cannot live with them since they require medical care I'm incapable of providing, either personally or financially.  
    So, yes, sometimes a woman has no choice but to "man-up" to take care of herself and protect her virtue.  There is no man to do it.
    As for pants and men's clothes, there are none in my wardrobe.
    Yes, I do enjoy intellectual endeavors, but getting into hysterical arguments over them?  No.  It seems to me there are as many men as women who can't admit they're wrong.  Too bad, because these people aren't apt to learn anything, not even from their mistakes.  Is this feminism or plain old pride?
    No reason to down-thumb you.  You're not rude, one who resorts to name-calling, illogic, etc.