Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Traditional Catholics who have DIVORCED?  (Read 2800 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline PetrusPrimus

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 48
  • Reputation: +11/-0
  • Gender: Male
Traditional Catholics who have DIVORCED?
« on: August 12, 2022, 01:42:43 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Hi everyone. It's been a few years.

    Anyway, I know someone who has to make a decision about a legal divorce. With today's antichrist laws and crazy relationships, sometimes it seems a legal divorce is necessary, especially if one of the spouses is not willing to get help or is destroying the family in various ways.

    So I hope to give the person who must choose divorce or change a choice, and I hope to give this person a realistic perspective of before v after so they know what they might be getting into. So what does divorce do to a family, and especially to a woman who must now make her own way?

    In terms of:

    Finances?
    Living Conditions?
    Social Consequences? (ie loneliness, depression)
    Sense of control?
    Relationship with God?

    I appreciate any insights and experiences. 

    Virgin assumed into Heaven, pray for us!


    Offline de Lugo

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 563
    • Reputation: +421/-74
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Traditional Catholics who have DIVORCED?
    « Reply #1 on: August 12, 2022, 01:50:29 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • Non possumus.
    Noblesse oblige.


    Offline epiphany

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3542
    • Reputation: +1097/-875
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Traditional Catholics who have DIVORCED?
    « Reply #2 on: August 12, 2022, 02:47:48 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I suggest you talk to a traditional priest you trust.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41908
    • Reputation: +23946/-4345
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Traditional Catholics who have DIVORCED?
    « Reply #3 on: August 12, 2022, 03:09:04 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • Not enough details there for anyone to really be able to offer advice that would not potentially be incorrectly applied given the situation.

    In my experience, when the parents divorce, the children are ALWAYS deeply traumatized by it ... even if it ameliorates some other poor conditions in which they may be living.  So the reasons for a divorce must be grave indeed before it can be justified.

    What are the person's true motives for seeking the divorce?  If he or she has children, they must be THE consideration.  If their situation is so dire that divorce seems to be an improvement (and clearly offsets the trauma caused by the divorce itself and then some), it would also depend on whether it's the husband or the wife who's seeking the divorce.  So, for instance, if it's the wife who is the problem and the husband seeking the divorce, it'll simply compound the problems for the children, as unless there are extremely grave circuмstances that will be accepted by today's courts (i.e. the wife is a drug addict), the wife invariably gets primary custody of the children.  So the children would remain in their dreadful situation but without the presence of the spouse that might generally provide a bit of interference or shielding from the other spouse's behavior, and it is compounded by the trauma of the divorce.  In that case, the husband needs to suck up the horror of the situation and stay there for the good of the children, and not divorce simply because HE wants to get out of the extremely unpleasant situation.  It's a great cross to bear but one that must be borne for the children.

    If it's the husband who's the problem, then the court situation isn't an issue, but even then she must be very certain (in consultation with a Traditional priest) that the trauma caused by the divorce is clearly offset by the improvement in their overall situation.

    In terms of finances for a woman, that's hardly ever a consideration, as they receive extremely favorable terms from the courts.  They would be of course subject to loneliness in having to raise children on their own, and would not have the benefit of a man around to do certain things that she might then have to depend on others for ... but those are simply minor considerations that don't weigh in at all.  If the situation is grave enough to justify divorce in the first place, i.e. where the children are so bad off as to justify it, then she'll have to suck up these consequences to her personally.

    If either spouse is considering divorce because HE or SHE wants to get away from the other one, that's not nearly enough to justify it if they have children.  NONE of those things you listed are a consideration whatsoever.  Either the situation (vis-a-vis) the children is grave enough to justify divorce or it is not ... and the improvement in spouse's situation doesn't even factor in.

    Now, if they don't have any children, that's different, but even then the situation has to be very grave ... since it'll cut off any future children that might have otherwise been born of the marriage.

    Bottom Line:  when children are involved, NEITHER spouse matters in terms of considering divorce, but only the children.  Divorce would have to lead to a serious improvement in their situation that offsets the trauma caused by the divorce itself.

    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 31200
    • Reputation: +27117/-494
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Traditional Catholics who have DIVORCED?
    « Reply #4 on: August 12, 2022, 03:15:15 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Not enough details there for anyone to really be able to offer advice that would not potentially be incorrectly applied given the situation.

    If either spouse is considering divorce because HE or SHE wants to get away from the other one, that's not nearly enough to justify it if they have children.  NONE of those things you listed are a consideration whatsoever.  Either the situation (vis-a-vis) the children is grave enough to justify divorce or it is not ... and the improvement in spouse's situations doesn't even factor in.

    Ladislaus made a very good post here -- I should point out that he is not just an "average CathInfo member", but a mature, middle aged man WHO HAS STUDIED SOME THEOLOGY IN A SEMINARY/PROFESSIONAL SETTING. So his opinions and advice ARE worth more than average. Just stating facts here. I know that's tantamount to heresy in egalitarian America -- but such is the truth.

    Also, no one has mentioned the very real DANGER of ameliorating that loneliness by "finding someone new" -- which, for a Catholic, would mean leaving the Church and/or the Catholic Faith. I list those two separately because some might go "Novus Ordo" and try/succeed to get an annulment, but they'd be effectively giving up the FAITH because nowadays the Faith is called "Traditional Catholic". :trollface:
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com


    Offline PetrusPrimus

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 48
    • Reputation: +11/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Traditional Catholics who have DIVORCED?
    « Reply #5 on: August 12, 2022, 03:32:44 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Non possumus.
    I get it. Perhaps an article like this can give you context.  
    https://tradcatfem.com/2020/02/20/the-divorce-epidemic/

    I'm asking about others who were forced into or chose in this difficult situation.  

    What does one do, for example if one's spouse has a mental disorder and is not willing to be helped?  If that persons attacks the family, destroys the finances (name being on deeds of houses so one is not able to sell a house to free up money to pay bills, etc), unleashes a demonic rage on spouse and children?

    Does one simply declare bankruptcy and separate? Or should so many ugly sins of abuse and selfishness be put on parade so that not only the spouse is jailed for destroying the home but the children are taken away for rape picnics at foster homes?

    My point is that I don't want this to happen. I want to talk sense to someone who is otherwise not rational. I need a miracle of grace so this person receives treatment and finally receives grace.

    Offline DigitalLogos

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8316
    • Reputation: +4706/-754
    • Gender: Male
    • Slave to the Sacred Heart
      • Twitter
    Re: Traditional Catholics who have DIVORCED?
    « Reply #6 on: August 12, 2022, 03:44:05 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Bottom Line:  when children are involved, NEITHER spouse matters in terms of considering divorce, but only the children.  Divorce would have to lead to a serious improvement in their situation that offsets the trauma caused by the divorce itself.
    Disclaimer: This isn't meant as advice to the OP. More or less just input on the wider moral dilemma of such a situation. They should talk with their priest about this.

    If it isn't over adultery, then all they would have to do is literally cohabitate for the sake of their kids. But, unfortunately, practically no one has such virtue these days. How many marriages persisted prior to the sɛҳuąƖ revolution just for the sake of the family? Probably tons. Yet people are so sex-crazed these days that if they don't have that other person to use to feed their libido, then they can't handle it.

    My coworker went through a divorce a couple years ago because his wife fell back into drugs and ended up cheating on him. Does that justify divorce? No. But it may justify separation. "But I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, excepting for the cause of fornication, maketh her to commit adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery."
    [Matthew 5:32]
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Polymath

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 80
    • Reputation: +57/-34
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Traditional Catholics who have DIVORCED?
    « Reply #7 on: August 12, 2022, 03:54:18 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Would you come here for medical advice?  This is really something that should be discussed with a good priest instead of a bunch of strangers.


    Offline PetrusPrimus

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 48
    • Reputation: +11/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Traditional Catholics who have DIVORCED?
    « Reply #8 on: August 12, 2022, 04:19:58 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Disclaimer: This isn't meant as advice to the OP. More or less just input on the wider moral dilemma of such a situation. They should talk with their priest about this.

    If it isn't over adultery, then all they would have to do is literally cohabitate for the sake of their kids. But, unfortunately, practically no one has such virtue these days. How many marriages persisted prior to the sɛҳuąƖ revolution just for the sake of the family? Probably tons. Yet people are so sex-crazed these days that if they don't have that other person to use to feed their libido, then they can't handle it.

    My coworker went through a divorce a couple years ago because his wife fell back into drugs and ended up cheating on him. Does that justify divorce? No. But it may justify separation. "But I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, excepting for the cause of fornication, maketh her to commit adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery."
    [Matthew 5:32]
    Look, Im willing to be disparaged as a guy who just wants to bail out because his wife is grumpy. But it's not that simple. YES, I have spoken to my priest (and bishop) many times over several years about this.

    For the sake of the children? Even if she uses them as a punching bag or scandalizes them with her screaming like a demon at her husband in front of them? Even to the point with the 10-year old running away when there is a registered sɛҳuąƖ predator in the neighborhood?

    I don't believe my points have been addressed. More than anything I want my wife's sanity back. Yes, there is a spiritual problem. And I have been praying my Assumption novena to release the spirits that dominate her.

    Truly she has the "animus delendi".  I just spoke to my mom about NOT empowering her narcissism. Pray she gets help and sees the brutality of what divorce actually is. I truly want a happy marriage but she has clinical problems with her hormones and most likely her lyme disease, both of which affect the brain, from paranoia to irritability to mania and schizophrenia.  This is a spiritual battle unlike I have ever seen. And yes, she accused me of unspeakable violence to the police and not only went to jail. I may be gone for 6 months thanks to this destructive spirit of hers.

    Offline PetrusPrimus

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 48
    • Reputation: +11/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Traditional Catholics who have DIVORCED?
    « Reply #9 on: August 12, 2022, 04:21:24 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Would you come here for medical advice?  This is really something that should be discussed with a good priest instead of a bunch of strangers.
    If you look at the original post, I am asking for the perspective of a divorced TRAD. If there be any out there. If not, don't worry. God will provide.

    Offline Emile

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2166
    • Reputation: +1511/-85
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Traditional Catholics who have DIVORCED?
    « Reply #10 on: August 12, 2022, 04:53:54 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Look, Im willing to be disparaged as a guy who just wants to bail out because his wife is grumpy. But it's not that simple. YES, I have spoken to my priest (and bishop) many times over several years about this.

    For the sake of the children? Even if she uses them as a punching bag or scandalizes them with her screaming like a demon at her husband in front of them? Even to the point with the 10-year old running away when there is a registered sɛҳuąƖ predator in the neighborhood?

    I don't believe my points have been addressed. More than anything I want my wife's sanity back. Yes, there is a spiritual problem. And I have been praying my Assumption novena to release the spirits that dominate her.

    Truly she has the "animus delendi".  I just spoke to my mom about NOT empowering her narcissism. Pray she gets help and sees the brutality of what divorce actually is. I truly want a happy marriage but she has clinical problems with her hormones and most likely her lyme disease, both of which affect the brain, from paranoia to irritability to mania and schizophrenia.  This is a spiritual battle unlike I have ever seen. And yes, she accused me of unspeakable violence to the police and not only went to jail. I may be gone for 6 months thanks to this destructive spirit of hers.
    That's a tough situation, PP. You are in my prayers. :pray:

    It's probably not much help, but I had a relative whose wife developed schizophrenia some years into their marriage. He came home one day to find her trying to gas the three youngest in the oven. I wasn't privy to all the details, but I gathered that they were civilly divorced, with the permission of the Bishop (this was pre-VII). If I recall correctly, the divorce was necessary so that she could become a ward of the state and be institutionalized. He understood that they were in fact still married, never sought to "remarry", and raised their children the best that he could with help from the family. RIP J&C.
    Patience is a conquering virtue. The learned say that, if it not desert you, It vanquishes what force can never reach; Why answer back at every angry speech? No, learn forbearance or, I'll tell you what, You will be taught it, whether you will or not.
    -Geoffrey Chaucer


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41908
    • Reputation: +23946/-4345
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Traditional Catholics who have DIVORCED?
    « Reply #11 on: August 12, 2022, 07:12:52 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!1
  • Look, Im willing to be disparaged as a guy who just wants to bail out because his wife is grumpy. But it's not that simple. YES, I have spoken to my priest (and bishop) many times over several years about this.

    For the sake of the children? Even if she uses them as a punching bag or scandalizes them with her screaming like a demon at her husband in front of them? Even to the point with the 10-year old running away when there is a registered sɛҳuąƖ predator in the neighborhood?

    I don't believe my points have been addressed. More than anything I want my wife's sanity back. Yes, there is a spiritual problem. And I have been praying my Assumption novena to release the spirits that dominate her.

    Truly she has the "animus delendi".  I just spoke to my mom about NOT empowering her narcissism. Pray she gets help and sees the brutality of what divorce actually is. I truly want a happy marriage but she has clinical problems with her hormones and most likely her lyme disease, both of which affect the brain, from paranoia to irritability to mania and schizophrenia.  This is a spiritual battle unlike I have ever seen. And yes, she accused me of unspeakable violence to the police and not only went to jail. I may be gone for 6 months thanks to this destructive spirit of hers.

    OK, so your OP of "I know someone" = mental reservation for yourself (as in "asking for a friend").  I kindof suspected that, and that's why I spent more time on a man wanting to divorce his wife.

    Your quote:
    Quote
    For the sake of the children? Even if she uses them as a punching bag or scandalizes them with her screaming like a demon at her husband in front of them? Even to the point with the 10-year old running away when there is a registered sɛҳuąƖ predator in the neighborhood?

    Yes, for the sake for the children.  Even if ... ?  YES.  ESPECIALLY IF she does what you describe to them.  What do you think ?  ... that you'll get custody and get the children away from her?  If so, you're delusional.  99.99% chance naturally speaking, without a miracle, that she'll get custody, and then because you mentioned (as I alluded to) that she has accused you of abuse, she'll not only get primary custody, she'll likely get SOLE custody of the kids.

    What I wrote applies very clearly to your situation.  You have children.  Your only consideration must be how the divorce will affect the children.  And you also have to face reality.  You can go into court and assert that your wife is abusive, but she just has to show up there and cry a few crocodile tears and accuse YOU of being the abuser, etc. ... there's 99.99% chance that SHE will get custody of the children, and even sole custody because she'll accuse you of abuse ... and she'll be believed and your claims dismissed.  Unless you can prove a drug addiction, you have zero shot (apart from a miracle) of getting custody of the children.  Then you're out of the house and you're no longer in a position to run interference between your wife and kids.  You're basically throwing them to the wolf while you high-tail it out of there.  That would be extremely selfish and cowardly.

    I wrote from experience.  I've known exactly that type of situation, where the wife clearly suffered from narcissistic personality disorder and was abusive (mostly emotionally) with the children.

    What exactly do you think the "divorce" would accomplish?  For the children?  Sure, you'd get the heck out of there, where you wouldn't have to deal with it.  But you're hanging the children out to dry.  You need to suck it up and bear this heavy cross of being with a woman like that, to do the best you can to help the children in that environment, run interference for them, etc.

    Probably your only hope is this, that the wife will consider the children a burden and not WANT to have custody of them.  That also happened in one case, where the husband said, fine, I'll even pay alimony and child support so long as I get custody of the children.  She said fine.  So he paid the price by paying HER the child support, to splurge on herself and her new adulterous live-in boyfriend who moved into their home (which she also got possession of), but the husband sacrificed all the money to have custody of the children.  That was a member of my extended family, so I am well acquainted with the details.

    None of this is speculation on my part.  I've had two members of my extended family go through this (neither one of the initiated the divorce).  But in both cases the wife accused the HUSBAND of abuse and got sole custody of the children, even though she was in fact the abuser.  In both cases, they used the Traditional Catholicism of the husband as a weapon against them in court, with both of them claiming that this was tantamount to indoctrinating them into a cult, and then laying out the politically-incorrect positions held by most Traditional Catholics and thereby winning the judge over to believe that this was in fact a cult.  In both cases, the wife got sole custody.  But, in the one case I mentioned above, the husband struck a deal where he would pay her child support and alimony while actually having sole custody of the children and paying himself for all the expenses of raising them.

    You can't bail on the kids because you find the situation intolerable.  You need to such it up and bear that cross.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41908
    • Reputation: +23946/-4345
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Traditional Catholics who have DIVORCED?
    « Reply #12 on: August 12, 2022, 07:16:20 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!1
  • If you look at the original post, I am asking for the perspective of a divorced TRAD. If there be any out there. If not, don't worry. God will provide.

    While I am not divorced, I gave you the next-best thing, direct experience of exactly the situation you describe among two members of my extended family, and about which I know all the details.  Both of them were / are TRADs.

    Offline Vanguard

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 123
    • Reputation: +80/-12
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Traditional Catholics who have DIVORCED?
    « Reply #13 on: August 12, 2022, 10:31:46 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Has the wife been evaluated by a doctor, such as a psychiatrist or neurologist?  While I recognize that many problems have spiritual underpinnings, she may have psychiatric/neurologic issues that can be treated with medication. It's no different than treating diabetes, especially if she has had other disease conditions, such as Lyme disease. I would try this route and see if the problem can be treated medically. 

    Offline AMDGJMJ

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2707
    • Reputation: +1548/-64
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Traditional Catholics who have DIVORCED?
    « Reply #14 on: August 13, 2022, 06:14:08 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • OK, so your OP of "I know someone" = mental reservation for yourself (as in "asking for a friend").  I kindof suspected that, and that's why I spent more time on a man wanting to divorce his wife.

    Your quote:
    Yes, for the sake for the children.  Even if ... ?  YES.  ESPECIALLY IF she does what you describe to them.  What do you think ?  ... that you'll get custody and get the children away from her?  If so, you're delusional.  99.99% chance naturally speaking, without a miracle, that she'll get custody, and then because you mentioned (as I alluded to) that she has accused you of abuse, she'll not only get primary custody, she'll likely get SOLE custody of the kids.

    What I wrote applies very clearly to your situation.  You have children.  Your only consideration must be how the divorce will affect the children.  And you also have to face reality.  You can go into court and assert that your wife is abusive, but she just has to show up there and cry a few crocodile tears and accuse YOU of being the abuser, etc. ... there's 99.99% chance that SHE will get custody of the children, and even sole custody because she'll accuse you of abuse ... and she'll be believed and your claims dismissed.  Unless you can prove a drug addiction, you have zero shot (apart from a miracle) of getting custody of the children.  Then you're out of the house and you're no longer in a position to run interference between your wife and kids.  You're basically throwing them to the wolf while you high-tail it out of there.  That would be extremely selfish and cowardly.

    I wrote from experience.  I've known exactly that type of situation, where the wife clearly suffered from narcissistic personality disorder and was abusive (mostly emotionally) with the children.

    What exactly do you think the "divorce" would accomplish?  For the children?  Sure, you'd get the heck out of there, where you wouldn't have to deal with it.  But you're hanging the children out to dry.  You need to suck it up and bear this heavy cross of being with a woman like that, to do the best you can to help the children in that environment, run interference for them, etc.

    Probably your only hope is this, that the wife will consider the children a burden and not WANT to have custody of them.  That also happened in one case, where the husband said, fine, I'll even pay alimony and child support so long as I get custody of the children.  She said fine.  So he paid the price by paying HER the child support, to splurge on herself and her new adulterous live-in boyfriend who moved into their home (which she also got possession of), but the husband sacrificed all the money to have custody of the children.  That was a member of my extended family, so I am well acquainted with the details.

    None of this is speculation on my part.  I've had two members of my extended family go through this (neither one of the initiated the divorce).  But in both cases the wife accused the HUSBAND of abuse and got sole custody of the children, even though she was in fact the abuser.  In both cases, they used the Traditional Catholicism of the husband as a weapon against them in court, with both of them claiming that this was tantamount to indoctrinating them into a cult, and then laying out the politically-incorrect positions held by most Traditional Catholics and thereby winning the judge over to believe that this was in fact a cult.  In both cases, the wife got sole custody.  But, in the one case I mentioned above, the husband struck a deal where he would pay her child support and alimony while actually having sole custody of the children and paying himself for all the expenses of raising them.

    You can't bail on the kids because you find the situation intolerable.  You need to such it up and bear that cross.
    Laudislaus has given some very good advice here and brought up many good points...

    I personally know two traditional Catholic families who went through a "legal divorce" and I also have a friend whose sister went through one.  Of the ones I know person, one family had 12 children, the other had 10 children.  Of my friends sister, she had 4-7 children (I can't remember the exact number but they were still quite young when it happened I believe).  

    In EVERY case the excuse was to divorce the traditional Catholic spouse because the other one was tired of them.  In EVERY case the mother was given custody of the children even when the mother was the instigator of the divorce.  In EVERY case the children suffered terribly.

    In the two cases where I know the families personally, the mothers were the instigators.  Their "excuses" for the divorces we're that their husbands were abusive but even though their husbands may have been choleric in nature, I don't think they were really abusive to any sort of degree to justify a divorce.  In reality it was an excuse for the wives to "get away" and take any of the minor aged children with them.  They then (in both cases) sent their children to treatments to have them learn to hate their fathers and tried as much as possible to keep the fathers from having any contact with the children but also making them pay support.

    As for the friend's sister's case...  Her husband was the instigator.  He left the Faith and found another woman.  She was given custody of the children and went to live with her mother.  I don't know as much about what happened with her family in the end but I remember that it was a very sad and traumatic time for the family and the children when it happened.

    I guess the questions for the OP is this...

    Are there children involved?  Most of us are assuming so.  

    Is the spouse in question abusive to the point of neglect and harm to the children?

    If not, keeping the family together is of the MOST importance.  The primary purpose of marriage if you are a traditional Catholic is the begetting and raising of children.  This is the duty and obligation of a married person.  The spiritual and physical well-being of the children come first before any emotional connection or disconnection with one's spouse.  This is why marriage is until death.  

    The True Church only allows "separation" for VERY intense reasons. 
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/