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Author Topic: Traditional Catholicism of today is not the same as pre Vatican II  (Read 1893 times)

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Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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  • Traditional Catholicism Of today is not the same as Catholicism of pre Vatican II.  Nadir is right.  Why all these labels when we should all be Catholic?  

    Catholics used to work hard and pray hard 24/7.  Not just on Sundays.  There were bans on unholy books, tv etc. 

    We have a Catholic president, Bishops and a pope who reject Jesus.  Catholics on Supreme Court allowed abortion and SS including a “traditional” Catholic who had no time for his own children but made time for a Liberal female Jєωιѕн judge pushing mortal sin.  We have young children who grew up in traditional chapels wearing immodest clothing and posting on face book.  There are some living a double life of sodomy.  A true Judas.  Something is not right.  How many sex scandals ?  Something isn’t right. History repeating itself for the worse. 


      















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    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism of today is not the same as pre Vatican II
    « Reply #1 on: November 16, 2021, 06:41:14 AM »
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  • Yes, it is very said. The best solution imo is for us to become devout and fervent Catholics ourselves, people of prayer, who spend much time praying the Rosary, in Eucharistic Adoration, in reading the Holy Bible, and also in Catholic Evangelism. We must do all in our power to spread the Catholic Faith to everyone, making use of all modern means of communication for it. We must each try to reach 1000s or tens of thousands for Our Lord Jesus Christ. And if we strive to be holy, and strive to win souls, things will work out, and all will be in the end imo. Our Lady has promised us the Triumph of Her Immaculate Heart.

    Let us keep praying, working, making sacrifices and evangelizing in order for that Promised Triumph of Our Lady to come.

    God bless.
    Yes. Thank you, Xavier. God bless and God bless India too. 
    May God bless you and keep you


    Offline Minnesota

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism of today is not the same as pre Vatican II
    « Reply #2 on: November 16, 2021, 08:29:43 AM »
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  • You don't have a lot of lazy priests that sneezed through a Low Mass in 25 minutes like there were before VII.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism of today is not the same as pre Vatican II
    « Reply #3 on: November 16, 2021, 08:36:40 AM »
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  • The best solution imo is for us to become devout and fervent Catholics ourselves, 
    That is the conclusion I came to when I was 41 and came back to the Church. It is a for certain, that one can convert themselves, but converting anyone else is an uncertain, converting the world impossible, but it can start one family at a time.  I came back, and God provided me a wife that thought the same, we had children  and now LIVE the faith in our little family country. As for those outside of my wife and children, we are good examples of what living the faith can do for others. 
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline DustyActual

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism of today is not the same as pre Vatican II
    « Reply #4 on: November 16, 2021, 08:40:54 AM »
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  • You don't have a lot of lazy priests that sneezed through a Low Mass in 25 minutes like there were before VII.
    Can you elaborate further on this? I've heard that before vatican 2, the priests would say mass very quickly. This is one of the complaints of the liberal boomers whenever they talk about their memories about the Latin mass. I've also heard that the quality of the latin instruction in the seminaries had degraded.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism of today is not the same as pre Vatican II
    « Reply #5 on: November 16, 2021, 08:50:43 AM »
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  • Can you elaborate further on this? I've heard that before vatican 2, the priests would say mass very quickly. This is one of the complaints of the liberal boomers whenever they talk about their memories about the Latin mass. I've also heard that the quality of the latin instruction in the seminaries had degraded.
     IMO there is really no reason for a Sunday Low Mass ever to be longer than one hour.  Holy Mass is not a "church service" or a "praise and worship service", neither does it hinge on a good sermon or good hymns.  Those are Protestant concepts.

    If the sermon is indeed good, or if the music excels, that is wonderful, but falling short in either, does not affect the Holy Sacrifice one bit.  I know we all know that, but for a Newchurcher, that might be a strange concept.  Again, the longing to be as Protestant-like as possible.

    A weekday Low Mass can easily be over in the space of not much more than a half-hour.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism of today is not the same as pre Vatican II
    « Reply #6 on: November 16, 2021, 08:59:04 AM »
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  • Can you elaborate further on this? I've heard that before vatican 2, the priests would say mass very quickly. This is one of the complaints of the liberal boomers whenever they talk about their memories about the Latin mass.

    Yes, apparently this was a thing. The Irish priests (quite numerous back then; Ireland's biggest export was priests) were the worst, apparently.
    The excuse was that the "Mass Rocks" were in their blood, their culture -- they had to get down to business and say Mass quickly, before the cops show up. I don't know that you can pass on something like that in your DNA -- but maybe in the culture? Maybe Irish parents did a hundred subtle things, like criticizing the priest in front of their children when he was taking too long, etc.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism of today is not the same as pre Vatican II
    « Reply #7 on: November 16, 2021, 09:10:19 AM »
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  • Traditional Catholicism Of today is not the same as Catholicism of pre Vatican II.  Nadir is right.  Why all these labels when we should all be Catholic?
    I do agree that we should all be Catholic and that we are not the ones who need the label, but we call ourselves "Traditional Catholics" because of the NOers, they're the ones who need the label not us, they're the ones who actually should *not* be using that name.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Todd The Trad

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism of today is not the same as pre Vatican II
    « Reply #8 on: November 16, 2021, 10:21:15 AM »
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  • The ICKSP weekday Masses I assist at last about 50 minutes and a Sunday Mass at an independent chapel I assist at generally lasts about an hour and fifteen to an hour and twenty minutes.  
    Our Lady of La Salette, pray for us!

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism of today is not the same as pre Vatican II
    « Reply #9 on: November 16, 2021, 10:58:31 AM »
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  • The ICKSP weekday Masses I assist at last about 50 minutes and a Sunday Mass at an independent chapel I assist at generally lasts about an hour and fifteen to an hour and twenty minutes. 
    A normal Low Mass should not take more than 35 minutes, so I assume you are talking above about sung masses during the week, or the priest is giving a sermon. 
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism of today is not the same as pre Vatican II
    « Reply #10 on: November 16, 2021, 11:06:22 AM »
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  • Yes, apparently this was a thing. The Irish priests (quite numerous back then; Ireland's biggest export was priests) were the worst, apparently.
    The excuse was that the "Mass Rocks" were in their blood, their culture -- they had to get down to business and say Mass quickly, before the cops show up. I don't know that you can pass on something like that in your DNA -- but maybe in the culture? Maybe Irish parents did a hundred subtle things, like criticizing the priest in front of their children when he was taking too long, etc.
    Too many apparentlies, here say,  and speculations, don't believe it. Today very few people know what  Low Mass was  because of the Novus Ordo weekday Low Mass which has multiple epistles read by laypeople, gospels, sermons, replies from the laity, singing. Compared to that of course a traditional Low Mass is fast, but a Low Mass is the sacrifice of Christ at Calvary all over again, while the Novus Ordo is a community "celebration of man".
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline moneil

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism of today is not the same as pre Vatican II
    « Reply #11 on: November 16, 2021, 12:04:03 PM »
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  • Quote
    Today very few people know what  Low Mass was  because of the Novus Ordo weekday Low Mass which has multiple epistles read by laypeople, gospels, sermons, replies from the laity, singing.


    Offered simply as a point of information, and only that:

    At a 1969 missal daily Mass (feria, memorial, votive, or feast) there will be ONE, and only one, lesson drawn usually from the epistles, though at times it may be drawn from the Acts of the Apostles, the Apocalypses, or the Old Testament.  I notice that today's lesson is from Second Maccabees.  During Advent and Lent the lesson is from the Old Testament prophecies of Our Lord's Incarnation or Passion, respectively.  The responsorial psalm with an antiphon is in essence the Gradual, which was at one time a full psalm.  Then there is the Gospel Acclamation (Alleluia or Tract) followed by the Gospel.

    At a Sunday Mass or that of a Solemnity the first reading will be from the Old Testament (Acts of the Apostles during the Easter season), followed by the Responsorial Psalm (Gradual) and the Epistle, which is followed by the Alleluia or Tract and the Gospel.  This is true also for Nuptial and funeral Masses.

    I reiterate that I am not commenting on any virtue or vice associated with the Novus Ordo Mass, but simple pointing out that at a daily Mass there ARE NOT "multiple epistles" nor "gospels" (plural).




    Online Nadir

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism of today is not the same as pre Vatican II
    « Reply #12 on: November 16, 2021, 07:08:29 PM »
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  • Can you elaborate further on this? I've heard that before vatican 2, the priests would say mass very quickly. This is one of the complaints of the liberal boomers whenever they talk about their memories about the Latin mass. I've also heard that the quality of the latin instruction in the seminaries had degraded.
    Why would “liberal boomers” complain about Mass being too short? That doesn’t add up.

    Also, remember that many of the folk who attended Holy Mass were on their way to work. You did not get a sermon, no laity processions to the lectern, or extended responsorial psalms, no communion under both species. No reason for weekday Mass to take much longer than half an hour. I don’t remember them as rushed at all.

    On Sundays we would have Mass on the hour, every hour from 7 to 11 if my memory serves me well and the church was full.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism of today is not the same as pre Vatican II
    « Reply #13 on: November 16, 2021, 07:31:50 PM »
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  • Offered simply as a point of information, and only that:

    At a 1969 missal daily Mass (feria, memorial, votive, or feast) there will be ONE, and only one, lesson drawn usually from the epistles, though at times it may be drawn from the Acts of the Apostles, the Apocalypses, or the Old Testament.  I notice that today's lesson is from Second Maccabees.  During Advent and Lent the lesson is from the Old Testament prophecies of Our Lord's Incarnation or Passion, respectively.  The responsorial psalm with an antiphon is in essence the Gradual, which was at one time a full psalm.  Then there is the Gospel Acclamation (Alleluia or Tract) followed by the Gospel.

    At a Sunday Mass or that of a Solemnity the first reading will be from the Old Testament (Acts of the Apostles during the Easter season), followed by the Responsorial Psalm (Gradual) and the Epistle, which is followed by the Alleluia or Tract and the Gospel.  This is true also for Nuptial and funeral Masses.

    I reiterate that I am not commenting on any virtue or vice associated with the Novus Ordo Mass, but simple pointing out that at a daily Mass there ARE NOT "multiple epistles" nor "gospels" (plural).
    My writing plural gospels with an s was a typo. As far as the epistles my experience with the Novus Ordo is limited to maybe 2 months in 1995. As I remember, during weekday masses there were two epistles read by a lay person, they called them lessons too. They changed missals every year or maybe every month (?). They printed them in cheap paper and discarded them when they expired. It was 1995, so I would not compare it with what they did in 1969, that's 26 years earlier. I'm no expert in the Novus Ordo, nor do I care to be.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism of today is not the same as pre Vatican II
    « Reply #14 on: November 16, 2021, 08:12:13 PM »
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  • My writing plural gospels with an s was a typo. As far as the epistles my experience with the Novus Ordo is limited to maybe 2 months in 1995. As I remember, during weekday masses there were two epistles read by a lay person, they called them lessons too. They changed missals every year or maybe every month (?). They printed them in cheap paper and discarded them when they expired. It was 1995, so I would not compare it with what they did in 1969, that's 26 years earlier. I'm no expert in the Novus Ordo, nor do I care to be.
    If we had the numbers that the Novus Ordo does, and assuming you had many parishioners who did not carry these "big bricks" (Lasance, SSPX Daily Missal, et al), you might be able to justify having cheap, recyclable paperback missals, customized to the calendar for each year.  I realize that we do not have multi-year cycles of readings the way the Novus Ordo does, but customizing them to the particular year by date might fulfill a need.  
    I might be dating myself here, because the same thing could be done with a well-designed app.