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Author Topic: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision  (Read 7864 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
« Reply #225 on: October 23, 2018, 04:15:08 PM »
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  • At one point, JayneK suggested "double effect" as the principle to justify circuмcision.  This again rests on the presumption that no formal intent could justify it, that it's intrinsically evil.  But double effect does not apply here.  There's only one actual effect, removal of the foreskin.  I believe that she was confusing "end justifies the means" for double effect.
    One of the conditions for the principle of double effect is that the action involved not be intrinsically evil.  It must be good or neutral.  So obviously when I suggested applying the principle, I was not presuming circuмcision was intrinsically evil.  (I have also explicitly mentioned that I don't think it's intrinsically evil a couple of times in this thread.)
    The"end justifies the means" is a completely unacceptable idea for a Catholic and I am bit miffed that you believe I would suggest such a thing.  Actually, you are the one who sounds confused, so maybe a quick review of the principle would be useful.
    The principle of double effect is applied when an action has both a good and bad effect under the following conditions:

    It seems to me that this could be a useful way to consider circuмcision (as a medical procedure).  The principle is regularly used in medical issues, since many treatments and procedures have unintended bad effects. It is a basic part of any medical decision to weigh the good effects and against the bad to determine if there is a proportionate reason for the proposed action.

    One of the main sources of controversy in this topic is that people disagree on whether there is a proportionate reason for routine circuмcision of infants.  Various people make different claims about its alleged good and bad effects.  Personally, I think that if it were really medically justifiable, routine circuмcision would be common throughout the world rather than primarily a US phenomenon.

    Another one of the bad effects, is not a medical/ physical one.  It creates the appearance that a man would have if he were circuмcised as a religious observance.  Since that is a serious sin, we should avoid the scandal or bad example of even the appearance of sin.  (This comparable to avoiding having an unrelated man and woman live together even when not in a sɛҳuąƖ relationship.  People could nevertheless assume that they were committing fornication.)  

    I think that adding this moral bad effect to the physical ones means that a "proportionate reason" for circuмcision is going to require a serious situation such as a life-threatening illness that can only be treated by circuмcision.



    Offline aryzia

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #226 on: October 23, 2018, 04:21:27 PM »
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  • This is a reference to the fact that some people thought they should observe the Jєωιѕн ritual before circuмcision in case they didn't make it to Baptism, with the thinking that since they were not yet baptized they could obtain a measure of justification under the old economy of salvation.  You just whip out-of-context passages out there to suit your agenda, like any Protestant would.  You have an obvious hostility against circuмcision and are trying to force your view on the Church.  Well, guess what, God commanded this ritual, and His judgement trumps yours in terms of how horrible it is.
    Even I can see this is presumption and an attempt to ease what the Church forbids in favor of a little circuмcision. Circuмcision is not to be practiced.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #227 on: October 23, 2018, 04:24:40 PM »
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  • But there are many studies which back up the claim that it dramatically reduces incidence of the sin.  "Empiricial evidence" (i.e. collected statistics can be manipulated), so one always has to investigate the possible agenda of those behind the study.  I'd prefer not to post those here, since they're rather graphic ... but several modern experts concur, based on other studies, that it dramatically reduces the sin and makes it much more difficult by eliminating the way that it's done naturally and requiring certain unnatural means.  In other words, it has to be completely deliberate.  Since the natural method is eliminated by circuмcision, it's far less likely for a boy to discover it by accident.

    So I reject your conclusion that it is "not a good reason for circuмcision" simply because you saw one study (probably engineered by the anti-circuмcision crowd) which backs up your opinion.  If a Catholic were to lend credence to the other studies, which contradict yours, then they might indeed have good reason for circuмcision.

    With every question, there's always a battle of studies ... depending on who's hellbent on trying to prove what.
    Actually it was more than one study and they were from the pro-circuмcision side.

    But the studies that support your view are just as open to being accused of having an agenda as these ones are.  You can't just assume that only the ones you don't like are agenda driven.

    And even if circuмcision did reduce the incidence of this sin, it would not be a good reason for doing it.  That is like saying we should cut out our babies' tongues to prevent them from lying or cut off their hand to prevent them from stealing.

    Our duty as parents is to teach the Faith to our children, teach them right from wrong, teach them to make right moral choices. We do not use any means necessary to stop them from sinning.  Following that reasoning to it logical conclusion, we would kill them immediately after baptizing them.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #228 on: October 23, 2018, 04:33:27 PM »
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  • These would be the kinds of questions that would be submitted to the Holy Office.  I don't think it was ever asked.  You know why?  I think it's because everyone was clear on the answer, that you could do it for medical reasons but not for religious reasons.
    Routine circuмcision has always been controversial.  There have been theologians saying that there were not proportionate reason for this, while some took the other side.  This aspect is not as clear as the others.  Circuмcision as a religious observance is clearly wrong.  "Circuмcision" to treat a life-threatening illness is clearly permissible.

    More likely that it did not make it to the Holy Office because it was not really an issue anywhere but America.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #229 on: October 23, 2018, 04:57:11 PM »
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  •  Well, guess what, God commanded this ritual, and His judgement trumps yours in terms of how horrible it is.
    Every time you make a comment like this you obscure the distinctions you claim you wish to make.

    What God commanded was a religious ritual that would be a mortal sin if done by a Catholic.  It was also probably materially different from the circuмcision as practiced in modern times.  

    The fact that God commanded a ritual thousands of years ago is completely irrelevant to any of the issues facing us now.  It does not make observance of religious circuмcision any less sinful. It does not make routine circuмcision with inadequate reasons any less horrible.  

    It was useless to comment like this even once and there is certainly no reason to keep repeating it.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #230 on: October 23, 2018, 05:08:25 PM »
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  • The principle of double effect is applied when an action has both a good and bad effect under the following conditions:
    I just noticed that my cut and paste did not work.  (Some unsuccesful attempts.)
    I can't get anything I try to work as C&P.  I'll type them in.

    An action must be morally good or indifferent as to object motive and circuмstances.
    The bad effects may be only tolerated, not directly willed.
    The good effect must be caused at least as directly as the bad.
    The good effects must be proportionate to compensate for the bad.



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #231 on: October 24, 2018, 08:47:43 AM »
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  • Even I can see this is presumption and an attempt to ease what the Church forbids in favor of a little circuмcision. Circuмcision is not to be practiced.

    It's called being rational.  So instead of refuting the argument, you simply dismiss it and restate your position.  St. Thomas disagrees with you.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #232 on: October 24, 2018, 08:50:59 AM »
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  • But the studies that support your view are just as open to being accused of having an agenda as these ones are.

    Of course they are.  But my point is that this is where the question leaves the realm of theology.  People who are otherwise good Catholics can come to one conclusion or another regarding the benefits, and they are not to be accused of mortal sin because they sided with one scientific camp vs. another ... until the Church rules definitively on the matter.  We could debate all day about the pros and cons of circuмcision, and I don't really want to go there.  I'm satisfied with saying that it's possible for a good Catholic to have their child circuмcised without committing any sin, much less mortal sin.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #233 on: October 24, 2018, 08:54:28 AM »
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  • Routine circuмcision has always been controversial.  There have been theologians saying that there were not proportionate reason for this, while some took the other side.  This aspect is not as clear as the others.  Circuмcision as a religious observance is clearly wrong.  "Circuмcision" to treat a life-threatening illness is clearly permissible.

    More likely that it did not make it to the Holy Office because it was not really an issue anywhere but America.

    Correct.  And, as a result, Catholics are free to take whichever side of this issue they agree with ... without being accused of sin and even mortal sin and "loss of salvation".

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #234 on: October 24, 2018, 09:00:36 AM »
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  • I just noticed that my cut and paste did not work.  (Some unsuccesful attempts.)
    I can't get anything I try to work as C&P.  I'll type them in.

    An action must be morally good or indifferent as to object motive and circuмstances.
    The bad effects may be only tolerated, not directly willed.
    The good effect must be caused at least as directly as the bad.
    The good effects must be proportionate to compensate for the bad.

    Your application/understand of double effect is not correct.  Double effect is not the weighing of the pros and cons of a single effect.  There must be two distinct effects.  Pros and cons are not the same as different "effects".

    Offline aryzia

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #235 on: October 24, 2018, 09:40:33 AM »
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  • It's called being rational.  So instead of refuting the argument, you simply dismiss it and restate your position.  St. Thomas disagrees with you.
    No, St. Thomas doesn't disagree, as all the saints who said anything about it said not to do it. Same with Scripture and councils and the catechism. You're adding to what they said as if  to promote it. As if to promote Jєωιѕн practice turned pagan practice secretly being inflicted on Christians under the guise of false benefits that medical practitioners contest. This is how they operate in order to defy God. With your help.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #236 on: October 24, 2018, 10:10:47 AM »
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  • No, St. Thomas doesn't disagree, ...

    :facepalm:

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #237 on: October 24, 2018, 11:08:54 AM »
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  • A symbol is a mark or character used as a conventional representation of an object, function, or process.  Circuмcision was symbolic of the Old Covenant now fulfilled in Christ, but abrogated.  Symbols are powerful things and have great meaning and effect.  Like the red cross of the Crusades.  To pretend there is no meaning or effect in symbolism is at the very least a naive approach to a significant matter.  Equating voluntary circuмcision with a medically necessary procedure for someone who needs cancer removed suggests that since little girls may grow up to have breast cancer, they should have their breasts removed in infancy.  This entire discussion is ridiculous because the Church recognizes circuмcision is an unnecessary and barbaric practice for no reason and certainly doesn't want Christians marked with a symbol that represents a false religion.    

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #238 on: October 24, 2018, 11:13:59 AM »
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  • This entire discussion is ridiculous because the Church recognizes circuмcision is an unnecessary and barbaric practice for no reason and certainly doesn't want Christians marked with a symbol that represents a false religion.    

    No matter how many times you keep repeating this, your mere gratuitous assertion doesn't make it true.

    Church has not pronounced on the question of whether the claimed medical benefits justify this procedure.  This is merely your opinion.  Stop trying to force it on the Church.  You were doing the same thing on the flat earth question, taking your opinion and one permissible view and trying to impose it on the Church, claiming that it was taught by the Church.

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #239 on: October 24, 2018, 11:25:58 AM »
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  • No matter how many times you keep repeating this, your mere gratuitous assertion doesn't make it true.

    Church has not pronounced on the question of whether the claimed medical benefits justify this procedure.  This is merely your opinion.  Stop trying to force it on the Church.  You were doing the same thing on the flat earth question, taking your opinion and one permissible view and trying to impose it on the Church, claiming that it was taught by the Church.
    No matter how many times you keep repeating the opposite doesn't make it true.  As for the flat earth go to flat earth section of Cathinfo and learn that it is Scriptural, promoted by the Fathers of the Church and the globe is a pagan belief.