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Author Topic: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision  (Read 15956 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
« Reply #210 on: October 22, 2018, 03:08:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: happenby on October 22, 2018, 03:04:34 PM
    No, the Council actually says it: " ...it strictly orders all who glory in the name of Christian, not to practice circuмcision either before or after baptism".  

    This is a reference to the fact that some people thought they should observe the Jєωιѕн ritual before circuмcision in case they didn't make it to Baptism, with the thinking that since they were not yet baptized they could obtain a measure of justification under the old economy of salvation.  You just whip out-of-context passages out there to suit your agenda, like any Protestant would.  You have an obvious hostility against circuмcision and are trying to force your view on the Church.  Well, guess what, God commanded this ritual, and His judgement trumps yours in terms of how horrible it is.
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #211 on: October 22, 2018, 03:24:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 22, 2018, 03:04:46 PM
    #1) It's disputed outside considerations of faith whether there's "no reason".

    #2) Church said not to do it as an observance of Jєωιѕн ritual, not as a medical practice.

    ... for the several dozenth time now.

    You just regurgitate the same crap over and over again ... and refuse to use your brain, because you don't want to or can't or a combination of both.
    1. In 2013  the Council of Europe passed a resolution condemning the practice of circuмcision as a “violation of the physical integrity of children” and calling for a public debate with the aim of banning the practice “before a child is old enough to be consulted”. Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, and Iceland joined forces to call for a ban, following the lead a year earlier from a German regional court in Cologne, which ruled that the practice amounted to bodily harm and banned it for infants and young boys below the age of consent.

    That provoked an angry reaction from Jєωιѕн and Muslim leaders, among whose communities ritual circuмcision has been performed for centuries, which was reignited by the Council of Europe resolution. They blamed the attacks on left-wing secularists and right wingers fearful of the influence of immigration from Muslim countries. 
    The Royal Dutch Medical Association, two years earlier, concluded that the benefits claimed for circuмcision were unproven, the risks underestimated and the procedure was “medically unnecessary” and violated the human rights of underage boys on whom it was imposed. It advocated a “strong policy of deterrence”.

    In the UK, the rate is 16 per cent circuмcised according to a national survey in 2000, with lower rates in France (14 per cent) Germany (11 per cent) and Spain (less than 2 per cent). Circuмcision is near universal in Muslim countries.

    Today, medical organisations in the UK continue to stand aloof from the growing rift between Europe and America over the issue. The British Medical Association says the consent of both parents should be obtained for a circuмcision carried out for religious or cultural (ie, non-therapeutic) reasons and supports the right of doctors to conscientiously object to being involved in a non-therapeutic procedure.

    Myth – Circuмcising newborn baby boys produces health benefits later in life.
    Fact – There is NO link between circuмcision and better health. In fact, cutting a baby boy's genitals creates immediate health risks. The foreskin is actually an important and functional body part, protecting the head of the penis from injury and providing moisture and lubrication. Circuмcision also diminishes sɛҳuąƖ pleasure later in life.

    Many studies prove circuмcision is harmful. This is just one.

    GLOBAL SURVEY OF CIRcuмCISION HARM: RESULTS
    OVERVIEW
    The Global Survey of Circuмcision Harm (GSCH), open to men 18 years of age and older, was launched to redress the information gap regarding long-term physical, sɛҳuąƖ, emotional and psychological consequences of childhood circuмcision on adult men. The survey, which ended in 2012, sought to determine:

    This survey is a grassroots, all-volunteer effort to provide a self-report and docuмentation method for any male who considers himself harmed by childhood genital cutting imposed on him without his informed consent. Find out more at http://www.circuмcisionharm.org.
    RESULTS
    In December 2014, survey programmer Tim Hammond and pediatric urologist Dr. Adrienne Carmack published a summary of the survey. Additional results include:
    sɛҳuąƖ symptoms: 76% reported dry, keratinized glans requiring supplemental lubrication; 24% suffer from erectile dysfunction; and 16% reported painful erections. One respondent reported “chafing/bleeding during sex due to remaining skin being too tight and unmovable.”
    Psychological effects: Many respondents reported deep sorrow, a sense of loss and inferiority, feelings of abandonment, inadequacy, anger at being mutilated, and mistrust of doctors. 75% feel “less whole,” 668% feel “inferior” to men who are intact, and 65% feel “not normal” or “unnatural.” Five percent have attempted ѕυιcιdє. 
    Relationships: 62% reported adverse effects on their sɛҳuąƖ relationships. 32% reported adverse effects on their relationship with their mother, and 29% with their father; when sharing their feelings about their circuмcision with their fathers, 61% of men said their fathers were dismissive or trivializing. Says one respondent, “It adversely affects my fatherhood, I feel so different to my intact sons and I feel like I can't advise them on sɛҳuąƖity.”
    Behavioral effects: Compulsive sɛҳuąƖ practices (e.g., by men who “never feel satisfied”) were reported by 25% of men
    http://www.intactamerica.org/resources

    2. The Church said not to do it and did not add the conditions you do. " ...it strictly orders all who glory in the name of Christian, not to practice circuмcision either before or after baptism".  
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    Offline Vintagewife3

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #212 on: October 22, 2018, 03:38:37 PM »
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    • I swear eVery debate about circuмcision turns heated/intense.

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    Offline happenby

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #213 on: October 22, 2018, 03:44:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Vintagewife3 on October 22, 2018, 03:38:37 PM
    I swear eVery debate about circuмcision turns heated/intense.
    It's really too bad because no one is judging anyone, just trying to inform people that the God has an opinion and has expressed it through the Church. 
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    Offline Vintagewife3

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #214 on: October 22, 2018, 03:47:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: happenby on October 22, 2018, 03:44:11 PM
    It's really too bad because no one is judging anyone, just trying to inform people that the God has an opinion and has expressed it through the Church.
    Pretty sure it’s just a cursed subject.
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #215 on: October 22, 2018, 03:55:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: Vintagewife3 on October 22, 2018, 03:47:23 PM
    Pretty sure it’s just a cursed subject.
    Na, just hotly contested. 
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #216 on: October 22, 2018, 05:19:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: happenby on October 22, 2018, 03:44:11 PM
    It's really too bad because no one is judging anyone, just trying to inform people that the God has an opinion and has expressed it through the Church.



    ... pretending that your misinterpretation of Church teaching is Church teaching itself.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #217 on: October 22, 2018, 05:22:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: happenby on October 22, 2018, 03:24:38 PM
    1. In 2013  the Council of Europe passed a resolution condemning the practice of circuмcision as a “violation of the physical integrity of children” ...

    Yes, I usually draw theological conclusions from the Council of Europe.  God thought otherwise in mandating circuмcision.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #218 on: October 22, 2018, 05:26:37 PM »
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    • Many Catholics circuмcise their boys with the understanding that it curtails the risk of the child developing a certain sinful habit.  This in fact was a major consideration well into the 1950s.  Only thing that changed is that these modern sources which are against circuмcision claim that there's "nothing wrong" with that particular sin.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #219 on: October 22, 2018, 06:05:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 22, 2018, 05:26:37 PM
    Many Catholics circuмcise their boys with the understanding that it curtails the risk of the child developing a certain sinful habit.  This in fact was a major consideration well into the 1950s.  Only thing that changed is that these modern sources which are against circuмcision claim that there's "nothing wrong" with that particular sin.
    That is not the only thing that changed.  The earlier belief that circuмcision prevented a sinful habit was an assumption that was not based on empirical evidence.  More recently there have been studies that suggest that circuмcision does not affect the frequency of this sin.   So, even for those of us who understand the habit is sinful, it is not a good reason for circuмcision.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #220 on: October 22, 2018, 06:45:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on October 22, 2018, 06:05:51 PM
    That is not the only thing that changed.  The earlier belief that circuмcision prevented a sinful habit was an assumption that was not based on empirical evidence.  More recently there have been studies that suggest that circuмcision does not affect the frequency of this sin.   So, even for those of us who understand the habit is sinful, it is not a good reason for circuмcision.

    But there are many studies which back up the claim that it dramatically reduces incidence of the sin.  "Empiricial evidence" (i.e. collected statistics can be manipulated), so one always has to investigate the possible agenda of those behind the study.  I'd prefer not to post those here, since they're rather graphic ... but several modern experts concur, based on other studies, that it dramatically reduces the sin and makes it much more difficult by eliminating the way that it's done naturally and requiring certain unnatural means.  In other words, it has to be completely deliberate.  Since the natural method is eliminated by circuмcision, it's far less likely for a boy to discover it by accident.

    So I reject your conclusion that it is "not a good reason for circuмcision" simply because you saw one study (probably engineered by the anti-circuмcision crowd) which backs up your opinion.  If a Catholic were to lend credence to the other studies, which contradict yours, then they might indeed have good reason for circuмcision.

    With every question, there's always a battle of studies ... depending on who's hellbent on trying to prove what.
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    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #221 on: October 22, 2018, 08:57:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 22, 2018, 06:45:51 PM
    But there are many studies which back up the claim that it dramatically reduces incidence of the sin.  "Empiricial evidence" (i.e. collected statistics can be manipulated), so one always has to investigate the possible agenda of those behind the study.  I'd prefer not to post those here, since they're rather graphic ... but several modern experts concur, based on other studies, that it dramatically reduces the sin and makes it much more difficult by eliminating the way that it's done naturally and requiring certain unnatural means.  In other words, it has to be completely deliberate.  Since the natural method is eliminated by circuмcision, it's far less likely for a boy to discover it by accident.

    So I reject your conclusion that it is "not a good reason for circuмcision" simply because you saw one study (probably engineered by the anti-circuмcision crowd) which backs up your opinion.  If a Catholic were to lend credence to the other studies, which contradict yours, then they might indeed have good reason for circuмcision.

    With every question, there's always a battle of studies ... depending on who's hellbent on trying to prove what.
    Unfortunately, discovering and forming this evil habit is not left to accidents alone. Planned Parenthood and perverted teachers are teaching this evil habit in the public and private schools to students in colleges, high schools, middle schools, elementary schools, primary schools, and in kindergarten. Children are learning this evil habit even in pre-school as a means of calming them down. Thus, it is imperative that parents homeschool their children.
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    Lord have mercy.

    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #222 on: October 23, 2018, 11:10:20 AM »
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    • This has been an interesting discussion, though perhaps a bit more heated than I was anticipating.  I was just looking for basic info as until a few weeks ago this was all rather unheard of for me.  My impression from the Council of Florence is that observing circuмcision religiously gives matter for a mortal sin if one knows it is seriously wrong.  It also seems from what everyone says here that the Church generally suggests that circuмcision should be avoided in general though It seems to have left the option open for serious medical conditions (sort of like amputation for gangrene).

    I miss the days when the normal Church hierarchy and a truly traditional Catholic Pope could easily and quickly have answered questions like this and recommended what was good or bad even if not necessarily intrinsically evil or not.  It would be interesting to hear what Bishop Williamson or other traditional Catholic priests would say about all of this if we asked them.  Has anyone ever asked their priests about it?
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #223 on: October 23, 2018, 11:34:44 AM »
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    • Quote from: AMDGJMJ on October 23, 2018, 11:10:20 AM
    I miss the days when the normal Church hierarchy and a truly traditional Catholic Pope could easily and quickly have answered questions like this and recommended what was good or bad even if not necessarily intrinsically evil or not.

    These would be the kinds of questions that would be submitted to the Holy Office.  I don't think it was ever asked.  You know why?  I think it's because everyone was clear on the answer, that you could do it for medical reasons but not for religious reasons.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #224 on: October 23, 2018, 11:36:35 AM »
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    • Quote from: AMDGJMJ on October 23, 2018, 11:10:20 AM
    It also seems from what everyone says here that the Church generally suggests that circuмcision should be avoided in general though It seems to have left the option open for serious medical conditions (sort of like amputation for gangrene).

    There's no explicit direction from the Church on this.  How serious does a potential benefit have to be in order to warrant circuмcision?
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