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Author Topic: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision  (Read 7853 times)

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Offline AMDGJMJ

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Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
« on: October 19, 2018, 10:13:58 AM »
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  • So...  My family being Novus Ordo, and my mother being an RN I never thought to question the fact that my brothers were all circuмcised as babies for what she believed were health reasons.

    Recently, with my husband and I expecting in April, some friends brought up the topic and told us that circuмcision was condemned by the Church.  We had never heard of this before so we did some research.  We were shocked to find out that it seems to have been condemned by the Church in the Council of Florence and that we had never heard before that the Church even had an opinion on it...

    I am thinking of writing an article on it for my blog but would love to hear if anyone has any info or history on this matter besides this particular Church Council article:

    Therefore it [the Church] commands all who glory in the name of Christian, at whatever time, before or after baptism, to cease entirely from circuмcision, since, whether or not one places hope in it, it cannot be observed at all without the loss of eternal salvation.

    Full Paragraph on the Section:
    SESSION 11 4 February 1442 [Bull of union with the Copts]
    "It firmly believes, professes and teaches that the legal prescriptions of the old Testament or the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, holy sacrifices and sacraments, because they were instituted to signify something in the future, although they were adequate for the divine cult of that age, once our lord Jesus Christ who was signified by them had come, came to an end and the sacraments of the new Testament had their beginning. Whoever, after the passion, places his hope in the legal prescriptions and submits himself to them as necessary for salvation and as if faith in Christ without them could not save, sins mortally. It does not deny that from Christ’s passion until the promulgation of the gospel they could have been retained, provided they were in no way believed to be necessary for salvation. But it asserts that after the promulgation of the gospel they cannot be observed without loss of eternal salvation. Therefore it denounces all who after that time observe circuмcision, the sabbath and other legal prescriptions as strangers to the faith of Christ and unable to share in eternal salvation, unless they recoil at some time from these errors. Therefore it strictly orders all who glory in the name of Christian, not to practice circuмcision either before or after baptism, since whether or not they place their hope in it, it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal salvation."


    Sincerely,

    Rita
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #1 on: October 19, 2018, 11:14:00 AM »
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  • We did not circuмcise our sons.

    These prohibitions were for religious reasons.  If someone decided to circuмcise as some kind of religious observance, then one would commit a great sin against the faith, having embraced Judaizing heresy.

    Here's the relevant portion of the second quote.

    Quote
    Whoever, after the passion, places his hope in the legal prescriptions and submits himself to them as necessary for salvation and as if faith in Christ without them could not save, sins mortally.

    In the first passage, the key word is "observed", as in make it a religious observance.

    One does not commit a grave reason if merely doing it ... for perceived medical reasons.

    Some people argue that there are good moral reasons to circuмcise a boy (making certain sins less likely later in life), and other argue hygienic benefits ... but I've not seen any compelling evidence along those lines.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #2 on: October 19, 2018, 11:19:08 AM »
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  • I doubt that spiritual penalties apply to people who have circuмcised their sons because they believed the lies that it was a necessary medical procedure.  I would love to see somebody knowledgeable (like Mithrandylan) analyze that situation.

    Personally, it was a no-brainer when my sons were born that we would not circuмcise them. My husband was from a culture that was not infected with misinformation on circuмcision (probably because it was historically Catholic) so there was no expectation or pressure from his side of the family.  And for me, as a convert from Judaism, it was important to distance myself from my Jєωιѕн background.

    Psychology Today has a lot of information from a secular perspective debunking all the myths about it being a necessary or beneficial procedure for health.  If anyone is facing pressure or criticism from family for refusing to circuмcise, it can be helpful to have these facts on hand.  Here is one and it contains links to others: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/moral-landscapes/201307/pro-circuмcision-culturally-biased-not-scientific-experts

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #3 on: October 19, 2018, 11:26:55 AM »
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  • Some people argue that there are good moral reasons to circuмcise a boy (making certain sins less likely later in life), and other argue hygienic benefits ... but I've not seen any compelling evidence along those lines.
    There are very strong arguments that there is no good reason for circuмcision.
    I have also seen a convincing case made that the current myths about health benefits were introduced by Jєωιѕн doctors.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #4 on: October 19, 2018, 11:59:34 AM »
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  • There are very strong arguments that there is no good reason for circuмcision.
    I have also seen a convincing case made that the current myths about health benefits were introduced by Jєωιѕн doctors.

    Right.  I am loathe to condemn circuмcision as a medical practice since God Himself mandated it at one time.  There's lots of stuff out there claiming that circuмcision is bad, but I have a hard time accepting it based on the fact that God required it, even of His Son.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #5 on: October 19, 2018, 12:48:59 PM »
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  • Right.  I am loathe to condemn circuмcision as a medical practice since God Himself mandated it at one time.  There's lots of stuff out there claiming that circuмcision is bad, but I have a hard time accepting it based on the fact that God required it, even of His Son.
    There is nothing in Scripture to suggest that God mandated circuмcision as a medical practice.  It was clearly identified in multiple passages as a "sign of the covenant".  It only had religious significance and that ended when Christ fulfilled the old covenant for which it was a sign. There is no role for circuмcision in the new covenant.

    If one wishes to consider circuмcision as a medical practice, one looks at evidence from medical studies and uses the standards of medicine.  As such, it is clearly an unnecessary and intrusive procedure.  It might not be intrinsically evil (which is all that your argument shows) but that does not make it a good thing to do.

    Offline MMagdala

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #6 on: October 19, 2018, 01:22:04 PM »
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  • If one wishes to consider circuмcision as a medical practice, one looks at evidence from medical studies and uses the standards of medicine.  As such, it is clearly an unnecessary and intrusive procedure.  It might not be intrinsically evil (which is all that your argument shows) but that does not make it a good thing to do.
    Do you have a medical degree?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #7 on: October 19, 2018, 01:30:29 PM »
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  • There is nothing in Scripture to suggest that God mandated circuмcision as a medical practice.  It was clearly identified in multiple passages as a "sign of the covenant".  It only had religious significance and that ended when Christ fulfilled the old covenant for which it was a sign. There is no role for circuмcision in the new covenant.

    If one wishes to consider circuмcision as a medical practice, one looks at evidence from medical studies and uses the standards of medicine.  As such, it is clearly an unnecessary and intrusive procedure.  It might not be intrinsically evil (which is all that your argument shows) but that does not make it a good thing to do.

    If God mandated it, for whatever reason, then I cannot say that it was a bad or harmful thing to do ... even from a medical standpoint.  I would say that it's at worst neutral or indifferent.  Much of the criticism surrounds loss of sensitivity in the male organ leading to less-pleasurable sɛҳuąƖ relations.  Certainly God was mandating the removal of something that He Himself had designed in the first place.  So, by virtue of the fact that He designed it, it must be considered good, at least in a pure state.  Could it be harmful to an extent in our fallen state?  Perhaps.  But it's removal cannot be considered a positive evil, since God would never mandate a positive evil.  God would have mandated the privation of a good, perhaps a good, however, that would be a helpful privation given our fallen state.  So, for instance, with fasting, eating healthy food is a good, but sometimes God mandates the privation of this good (fasting) ... in order to obtain some other higher good.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #8 on: October 19, 2018, 02:07:24 PM »
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  • If God mandated it, for whatever reason, then I cannot say that it was a bad or harmful thing to do ... even from a medical standpoint. 
    Circuмcision as a modern medical procedure differs from the religious practice of the Jєωs.  We therefore cannot deduce that this medical procedure must be neutral or good, simply because the religious practice was once mandated by God.  The medical procedure needs to be evaluated as a medical procedure.   

     God would have mandated the privation of a good, perhaps a good, however, that would be a helpful privation given our fallen state.  So, for instance, with fasting, eating healthy food is a good, but sometimes God mandates the privation of this good (fasting) ... in order to obtain some other higher good.
    This is speculation.  It was never revealed why God chose circuмcision as the sign of the old covenant.  I could make up a dozen such reasons and they would have as much value as your guess above.  There is nothing in Scripture or Church teaching that says it was meant as a helpful privation for our fallen state.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #9 on: October 19, 2018, 02:10:56 PM »
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  • Have you ever read the book "Parachuteless Skydiving", by Hugo First?


    Circuмcision? You go first. 
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #10 on: October 19, 2018, 02:11:34 PM »
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  • We did not circuмcise our sons.

    These prohibitions were for religious reasons.  If someone decided to circuмcise as some kind of religious observance, then one would commit a great sin against the faith, having embraced Judaizing heresy.

    Here's the relevant portion of the second quote.

    In the first passage, the key word is "observed", as in make it a religious observance.

    One does not commit a grave reason if merely doing it ... for perceived medical reasons.

    Some people argue that there are good moral reasons to circuмcise a boy (making certain sins less likely later in life), and other argue hygienic benefits ... but I've not seen any compelling evidence along those lines.
    What do you think "observed" means, unless it means to practice it?  The statement clarifies explicitly: 

    Therefore it denounces all who after that time observe circuмcision, the sabbath and other legal prescriptions as strangers to the faith of Christ and unable to share in eternal salvation, unless they recoil at some time from these errors. Therefore it strictly orders all who glory in the name of Christian, not to practice circuмcision either before or after baptism, since whether or not they place their hope in it, it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal salvation."


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #11 on: October 19, 2018, 02:12:09 PM »
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  • Do you have a medical degree?
    I do not need a medical degree to make health decisions regarding myself and my family.  I may get advice or information from a doctor when needed, but the final decision and responsibility rests with my husband and myself. I would not mindlessly do something just because someone with a medical degree told me too.

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #12 on: October 19, 2018, 02:24:38 PM »
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  • The new and far more invasive practice of circuмcision has no medical purpose whatsoever and is not recommended in many countries.  Only in 2012 has  
    the US changed its policy, but not without opposition from many in the medical establishment.
    Canadian Paediatric Society (CPS) (2015)
    The CPS does not recommend the routine circuмcision of every newborn male. It further states that when “medical necessity is not established, …interventions should be deferred until the individual concerned is able to make their own choices.”

    Royal Dutch Medical Association (KNMG) (2010)
    The KNMG states “there is no convincing evidence that circuмcision is useful or necessary in terms of prevention or hygiene.” It regards the non-therapeutic circuмcision of male minors as a violation of physical integrity, and argues that boys should be able to make their own decisions about circuмcision.

    The Royal Australasian College of Physicians (RACP) (2010)
    The RACP states that routine infant circuмcision is not warranted in Australia and New Zealand. It argues that, since cutting children involves physical risks which are undertaken for the sake of merely psychosocial benefits or debatable medical benefits, it is ethically questionable whether parents ought to be able to make such a decision for a child.

    British Medical Association (BMA) (2006)
    The BMA considers that the evidence concerning health benefits from non-therapeutic circuмcision is insufficient as a justification for doing it. It suggests that it is “unethical and inappropriate” to circuмcise for therapeutic reasons when effective and less invasive alternatives exist.

    Expert statement from the German Association of Pediatricians(BVKJ) (2012)
    In testimony to the German legislature, the President of the BVKJ has stated, “there is no reason from a medical point of view to remove an intact foreskin from …boys unable to give their consent.” It asserts that boys have the same right to physical integrity as girls in German law, and, regarding non-therapeutic circuмcision, that parents’ right to freedom of religion ends at the point where the child’s right to physical integrity is infringed upon.

    In addition, medical organizations and children’s ombudsmen from a number of other countries, including Belgium, FinlandNorwaySlovenia, South Africa, Denmark, and Sweden, have gone on record in opposition to non-therapeutic circuмcision of boys.

    https://www.doctorsopposingcircuмcision.org/for-professionals/medical-organization-statements/

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #13 on: October 19, 2018, 02:27:41 PM »
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  • Without a medical reason for doing a circuмcision, for which there is no foundation whatsoever, it is nothing less than mutilation.  Even in modern times, the Church say it is immoral to circuмcise.  

     http://www.drmomma.org/2010/03/morality-of-circuмcision-according-to.html

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #14 on: October 19, 2018, 02:30:26 PM »
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  • So...  My family being Novus Ordo, and my mother being an RN I never thought to question the fact that my brothers were all circuмcised as babies for what she believed were health reasons.

    Recently, with my husband and I expecting in April, some friends brought up the topic and told us that circuмcision was condemned by the Church.  We had never heard of this before so we did some research.  We were shocked to find out that it seems to have been condemned by the Church in the Council of Florence and that we had never heard before that the Church even had an opinion on it...

    I am thinking of writing an article on it for my blog but would love to hear if anyone has any info or history on this matter besides this particular Church Council article:

    Therefore it [the Church] commands all who glory in the name of Christian, at whatever time, before or after baptism, to cease entirely from circuмcision, since, whether or not one places hope in it, it cannot be observed at all without the loss of eternal salvation.

    Full Paragraph on the Section:
    SESSION 11 4 February 1442 [Bull of union with the Copts]
    "It firmly believes, professes and teaches that the legal prescriptions of the old Testament or the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, holy sacrifices and sacraments, because they were instituted to signify something in the future, although they were adequate for the divine cult of that age, once our lord Jesus Christ who was signified by them had come, came to an end and the sacraments of the new Testament had their beginning. Whoever, after the passion, places his hope in the legal prescriptions and submits himself to them as necessary for salvation and as if faith in Christ without them could not save, sins mortally. It does not deny that from Christ’s passion until the promulgation of the gospel they could have been retained, provided they were in no way believed to be necessary for salvation. But it asserts that after the promulgation of the gospel they cannot be observed without loss of eternal salvation. Therefore it denounces all who after that time observe circuмcision, the sabbath and other legal prescriptions as strangers to the faith of Christ and unable to share in eternal salvation, unless they recoil at some time from these errors. Therefore it strictly orders all who glory in the name of Christian, not to practice circuмcision either before or after baptism, since whether or not they place their hope in it, it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal salvation."


    Sincerely,

    Rita
    I am a mother to many boys and researched this over the years for clarity.  I have a boatload of information and resources on this subject.  Contact me if you're seeking something specific or just to contact.