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Author Topic: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision  (Read 15931 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
« Reply #195 on: October 22, 2018, 07:31:04 AM »
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    So, it might be more precise to say that observing circuмcision is objectively grave matter. 
    No!  Only if the person is doing it for religious reasons would it be grave (which is like 0.001% of the population).  

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #196 on: October 22, 2018, 09:14:38 AM »
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  • No!  Only if the person is doing it for religious reasons would it be grave (which is like 0.001% of the population).  
    Lets see your proof, gentlemen.  It would be nice to view a Saint's, a Pope's or Father's quotes proving your version and understanding. I gave tomes of proof showing the Church has spoken and means circuмcision is forbidden under pain of mortal sin.  When the statement is viewed within the mindset of the men, we wind up with the words of the Church meaning nothing whatsoever. So sterilized are they now that a Church teaching affecting salvation only applies to .001% of the population!  

    The I would never do it myself but defend your right to do it guys must be joking.   




    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #197 on: October 22, 2018, 09:15:34 AM »
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  • I believe that we need to keep our distinctions straight.

    intrinsically vs. extrinsically
    objectively vs. subjectively

    Removal of the foreskin is not intrinsically evil, since various considerations could justify doing it.

    It's confusing to assert that circuмcision is "objectively" grave matter without any qualifications whatsoever.  This suggests that the only reason one would be excused of mortal sin would be if the person was duped into thinking it was OK, only based on mistaken reasoning.  This is obviously false.  What if there was an infection or other defect that would warrant the removal of the foreskin?  Even limb amputation is not always objectively grave matter.  There are many situations where it's required to save the life of a patient.

    If, as we have established, circuмcision is not intrinsically evil, then it's the formal intent (objectively speaking) which defines its morality.  Formal intent relates to the intrinsic vs. extrinsic distinction and not to subjectivity.  Clearly, the Church teaches that any formal intent involving the observance of Old Testament ritual law entails mortal sin.  Notice that this is OBJECTIVELY.  Subjectively, someone could even on that count be excused or moral sin if, say, a recent convert was ignorant of Church teaching on the matter ... not yet having been thoroughly catechised about this particular subject.

    By stating that circuмcision is always objectively grave matter, JayneK is effectively asserting that NO formal intent could ever justify circuмcision ... which is the equivalent of saying that it's intrinsically evil.  But at one point earlier in this thread, she agreed that it was not intrinsically evil.  Only subjective issues (confusions or error) could justify it.

    And that's clearly false, since the formal intent of doing a medically-necessary procedure justifies circuмcision ... whether you believe that most of the reasons typically given are valid.  In the hypothetical case where it WOULD be necessary (say it's badly infected), then that would clearly justify it.  So not intrinsically evil by definition.

    So, at the very least she would have to state that in most circuмstances, or ordinarily, circuмcision constitutes grave matter.  And then the debate becomes whether or not the reasons given for its medical benefits are valid or not.

    At one point, JayneK suggested "double effect" as the principle to justify circuмcision.  This again rests on the presumption that no formal intent could justify it, that it's intrinsically evil.  But double effect does not apply here.  There's only one actual effect, removal of the foreskin.  I believe that she was confusing "end justifies the means" for double effect.  Take the standard example of double effect usually given, a procedure done to save the life of the mother which then ends up in the loss of an unborn child.  There might be a procedure, for instance, which helps restore the blood supply to the woman, but it also has the effect of eliminating the blood supply to the infant.  Even that procedure must be done in a very specific manner so as not to directly attack the child.  That's one procedure with two effects.  When speaking of circuмcision, there's one procedure, removal of the foreskin and the effect is ... removal of the foreskin.  But the REASONS for why this is done may vary.  I am removing an infected part of the body, for instance, vs. I am obeying God's command.  Both those are different formal intents, not two different effects.

    Until the Church specifically intervenes, there's a certain amount of freedom of opinion regarding the benefits or lack thereof (of circuмcision).  It's in the realm of difference of opinion among Catholics.



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #198 on: October 22, 2018, 09:16:50 AM »
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  • Lets see your proof, gentlemen.  It would be nice to view a Saint's, a Pope's or Father's quotes proving your version and understanding. I gave tomes of proof showing the Church has spoken and means circuмcision is forbidden under pain of mortal sin.

    Uhm, St. Thomas was quoted as teaching that it's only mortal sin when done as an observance of Old Testament ritual law, and not if done for medical reasons.  All you did was quote and misinterpret a couple of Councils.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #199 on: October 22, 2018, 09:18:52 AM »
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  • When the statement is viewed within the mindset of the men, we wind up with the words of the Church meaning nothing whatsoever.

    I love it when people equate their false interpretation of Church teaching as being Church teaching itself and then condemn all those who disagree with their interpretation.  St. Thomas has spoken.


    Offline happenby

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #200 on: October 22, 2018, 09:40:17 AM »
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  • St. Thomas never said it was ok to circuмcise.  Ladislaus, I would almost agree with your assessment above except this isn't about objective or subject reasoning.  It is about the definition of "circuмcision".  Removing diseased foreskin is not circuмcision.  It is removal of diseased foreskin and anyone can legitimately do that.  "Circuмcision" is elective surgery on a viable body part.  This is rendered null and void by the Church with an anathema attached to it and yet that is what is practiced on up to 50% of young boys to this day.  Yes, there is ignorance, but whose fault is that?  The Church says not to do it and yet the people are practicing it as a matter of course.    

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #201 on: October 22, 2018, 11:44:20 AM »
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  • St. Thomas never said it was ok to circuмcise.

    He said it was not a grave sin if sought for its medical benefits, but only as religious observation.  There may be degrees of sin involved if the procedure would be unnecessary or unjustified, but here you're injecting in your own allegation, as if it were a matter of faith, that there are no benefits to circuмcision.  At no time has the Church weighed in on that particular point of science.  So you're taking a condemnation by the Church of circuмcision for the sake of religious observance as tantamount to Church teaching that it's mortal sin even if done for medical reasons.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #202 on: October 22, 2018, 11:46:20 AM »
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  • Removing diseased foreskin is not circuмcision.  It is removal of diseased foreskin and anyone can legitimately do that.  "Circuмcision" is elective surgery on a viable body part.

    Materially they're the same thing.  You're injecting formal intent into the definition of the term.


    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #203 on: October 22, 2018, 11:50:16 AM »
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  • St. Thomas never said it was ok to circuмcise.  Ladislaus, I would almost agree with your assessment above except this isn't about objective or subject reasoning.  It is about the definition of "circuмcision".  Removing diseased foreskin is not circuмcision.  It is removal of diseased foreskin and anyone can legitimately do that.  "Circuмcision" is elective surgery on a viable body part.  This is rendered null and void by the Church with an anathema attached to it and yet that is what is practiced on up to 50% of young boys to this day.  Yes, there is ignorance, but whose fault is that?  The Church says not to do it and yet the people are practicing it as a matter of course.  
    in case you didn't realize, it is rude to use huge lettering to stress your same points repeatedly.
    This only perpetuates your fake claims and lengthens the size of this thread.
    .
    You can use large lettering to quote a source since the quote box has its own issues.
    Lord have mercy.

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #204 on: October 22, 2018, 01:36:43 PM »
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  • in case you didn't realize, it is rude to use huge lettering to stress your same points repeatedly.
    This only perpetuates your fake claims and lengthens the size of this thread.
    .
    You can use large lettering to quote a source since the quote box has its own issues.
    Firstly, the font isn't that big.  When it was, I apologized.  Secondly, I use lettering large enough to read easily on my screen.  It is not intended to bother people.  I've defended the truth on this matter and have the Church to back me up.  You have no proof that what the Church teaches is fake.  

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #205 on: October 22, 2018, 01:52:01 PM »
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  • Materially they're the same thing.  You're injecting formal intent into the definition of the term.
    With millions of boys being mutilated for no reason, especially when the Church said not to, we have a serious problem.  Our acceptance of this is reflected in the degenerate beliefs of a nation that says, "because I can" even though the Church, Scripture and Fathers say not to.  A medical procedure to remove cancer of the foreskin is not only rare, is not even referred to as circuмcision.  It is a procedure that removes the cancer and may not even involve all portions that make up circuмcision, or even go way beyond that.  Circuмcision is foisted on boys unable to speak for their own bodies.  Parents have no right to command harm to their children for no reason.  Nor do they have a right to circuмcise for spiritual reasons.  There is no reason to circuмcise.  The procedure to remove cancer is called for in order to save someone.  Totally different.      


    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #206 on: October 22, 2018, 02:34:19 PM »
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  • Perhaps some people do not realize that

    Circuмcision refers to the removal of foreskin, whether for medical or religious reasons, whether on an infant, a young child, a teenager or a man. For that matter, it also refers to the Muslim practice of female genital mutilation.

    It is probably more accurate to use the following phrases when referring to the religious use of circuмcision that occurs outside of a hospital or medical clinic.

    The Muslim ritual of circuмcision from Wikipedia


    Quote
    Khitan or Khatna is the term for male circuмcision carried out as an Islamic rite by Muslims. Male circuмcision is widespread in Islam and accepted as established practice by all Islamic schools of jurisprudence. It is considered a sign of belonging to the wider Islamic community.


    The Hebrew ritual of circuмcision is called Brit milah - see Wikipedia


    Quote
    A brit milah is more than circuмcision, it is a sacred ritual in Judaism, as distinguished from its non-ritual requirement in Islam. One ramification is that the brit is not considered complete unless a drop of blood is actually drawn.


    Lord have mercy.

    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #207 on: October 22, 2018, 02:36:59 PM »
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  • Firstly, the font isn't that big.  When it was, I apologized.  Secondly, I use lettering large enough to read easily on my screen.  It is not intended to bother people.  I've defended the truth on this matter and have the Church to back me up.  You have no proof that what the Church teaches is fake.  
    It is your interpretation of Church teachings that is fake news.
    Lord have mercy.

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #208 on: October 22, 2018, 03:04:34 PM »
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  • It is your interpretation of Church teachings that is fake news.
    No, the Council actually says it: " ...it strictly orders all who glory in the name of Christian, not to practice circuмcision either before or after baptism".  

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #209 on: October 22, 2018, 03:04:46 PM »
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  • With millions of boys being mutilated for no reason, especially when the Church said not to, we have a serious problem.

    #1) It's disputed outside considerations of faith whether there's "no reason".

    #2) Church said not to do it as an observance of Jєωιѕн ritual, not as a medical practice.

    ... for the several dozenth time now.

    You just regurgitate the same crap over and over again ... and refuse to use your brain, because you don't want to or can't or a combination of both.