Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision  (Read 16068 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 48028
  • Reputation: +28375/-5309
  • Gender: Male
Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
« Reply #180 on: October 21, 2018, 08:07:52 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I said that better knowledge of Catholic teachings and traditional practices might have made Catholics less susceptible to being deceived into thinking routine circuмcision was a necessary medical procedure because it might have made them more skeptical of these claims.

    You are quick to accuse others of poor reading comprehension, but the frequency with which you misrepresent the views of others makes you quite vulnerable to this charge yourself.

    That doesn't make any sense except as I interpreted it.  Why would Catholic condemnation of observing Jєωιѕн ritual law have any bearing on the medical benefits (or lack thereof) of circuмcision?  Answer: it doesn't.

    Offline Jaynek

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4170
    • Reputation: +2318/-1232
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #181 on: October 21, 2018, 08:17:19 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • That doesn't make any sense except as I interpreted it.  Why would Catholic condemnation of observing Jєωιѕн ritual law have any bearing on the medical benefits (or lack thereof) of circuмcision?  Answer: it doesn't.
    Because I was not just talking about  official Catholic teaching, but also about the traditional practices that developed from that teaching.  The traditional practice in Catholic cultures is that Catholics do not circuмcise other than serious medical necessity. I have already said this at least twice in this thread.  You did not need to "interpret" or guess.  All you had to do is read what I wrote.


    Offline Jaynek

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4170
    • Reputation: +2318/-1232
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #182 on: October 21, 2018, 08:28:14 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • If you had more humility in your arguments, then you would be treated by others differently.  If you asked questions, you'd be treated differently.  But you argue as if you're right, as if you know the topic, as if you understand philosophy/logic, so you are treated as an equal.  And if your arguments are crap, you're called out on it.  The problem is not your gender but your approach.

    You have not directly addressed my arguments at any point in this thread.  You have made personal attacks, disparaging remarks about women and negative comments about the thread in general.  Can you even give a specific example of a flawed argument that I made and explain what is wrong with it?

    Offline happenby

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2768
    • Reputation: +1077/-1637
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #183 on: October 21, 2018, 08:38:37 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Thank you.  Here the reasoning is laid out clearly and precisely.

    Now, for the first half of this century, there was a moral consideration for people who had their sons circuмcised, and I do not consider the reasoning to be completely flawed (though I'd rather not get into too much detail).  Modern sources that reject circuмcision dismiss this particular reason on the grounds that there's nothing wrong with the sinful habit that it was intended to curtail (which is obviously false).
    Well, well, here's the crux of the matter.  Ladislaus says (I'd rather not get into too much detail).  What other detail?  This isn't an emotional argument.  It never has been except by the men.  Not one person said that the Church did not allow some people to do invasive surgery for some legit reason.  NOT ONE.  And yet, the characterization of women pandering to their emotions continues.  Let's get back to the reality of the argument.  The Church said about circuмcision "it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal salvation."

    Ladislaus would have people believe that the word "observed" somehow means that people who cut their kids genitals in the name of the Jєωιѕн religion cannot cut their kids in the name of the Jєωιѕн religion but can otherwise cut their kids' genitals off for some other reason.  Bing tells us that "observe" includes "perform or take part in a ceremony" or "celebrate or acknowledge" 




    Ladislaus needs to explain how it is somehow acceptable within the Church's statement that Catholics may "perform or take part in" circuмcision.  Or that they may "celebrate or acknowledge" circuмcision when the Church says it CANNOT POSSIBLY BE OBSERVED without loss of eternal salvation.   The Church has made a broad statement here.  It says, CANNOT POSSIBLY BE OBSERVED, which means, by common definition to most normal people, that one may not perform or take part in, or celebrate or even acknowledge circuмcision.  By definition.  Re-interpreting the meaning of what the Church has said in order to bypass the meaning of what the Church is obviously telling us is at best dishonest.  Ladislaus needs to prove the Church doesn't mean we cannot perform or take part in, or celebrate or acknowledge circuмcision.  Or, his argument is void.  


    Offline Jaynek

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4170
    • Reputation: +2318/-1232
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #184 on: October 21, 2018, 08:58:31 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • My comment concerning women discussing/teaching theology is similar to what St Paul said.  I said "generally" speaking, they can't do it (some can).  It is not an insult; it is a truth of human nature.  You have proved you are incapable by turning a simple question about the morality of circuмcision into a 12 page thread full of disorientation.
    The morality of circuмcision is not a simple question.  It has several aspects to it, some of which are controversial. I summarized the main ones in my post at reply #172.   I cannot recall ever seeing a discussion of circuмcision that did not last for many pages.

    Even if this thread had gone on longer than was reasonable, it is ridiculous to blame it on the female posters only.  Every one who posted to it, including you, increased its length.


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13156
    • Reputation: +8288/-2565
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #185 on: October 21, 2018, 09:27:45 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    You have not directly addressed my arguments at any point in this thread.  You have made personal attacks, disparaging remarks about women
    You confusedly mix arguments of morality with side-stories of catholic customs.  This adds unnecessary complexity to the issue.  

    No, I’ve not made ANY disparaging comments about women in this thread.  I’ve simply stated truths about human nature.  Only feminists take such truths as offensive because they can’t admit when they’re out of their element, which this thread has proved that you are. 

    Offline happenby

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2768
    • Reputation: +1077/-1637
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #186 on: October 21, 2018, 09:51:45 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • You confusedly mix arguments of morality with side-stories of catholic customs.  This adds unnecessary complexity to the issue.  

    No, I’ve not made ANY disparaging comments about women in this thread.  I’ve simply stated truths about human nature.  Only feminists take such truths as offensive because they can’t admit when they’re out of their element, which this thread has proved that you are.
    There is no real complexity to this subject except continuous obfuscation provided by the men who cannot stand the thought that those closest to them (or they themselves) who are circuмcised are perceived by some not to be able to go to heaven.  This is a ridiculous concern since the victim is not guilty of this crime.  Those who perpetrated the harm are guilty, and this includes the men's parents.  This is where the men's hysterical emotionalism really kicks in (and why they use this to blame the women) because they cannot possibly envision their (Catholic) parents going to hell for such a thing and lash out at those who even suggest it as a possibility.  But in light of Catholic teaching and the ability to confess, that still isn't the issue is it?  Guilty parents either went to heaven or went to hell and nothing will change that, unless they are still alive and need to be told to confess this error done in ignorance which the men seem to refuse to want to do (hoping that same ignorance will save those who observed this abandoned ceremony God abrogated). The real problem here is that all the living must know the truth.  And only those who are afraid of telling their parents the truth would be bothered by this difficult teaching. The women have neither been emotional or defensive, but the fellas definitely have been.  This is unquestionably a matter of salvation as two Councils tell us and nothing will change that, especially not redefining words.  Ignorance has its place, but I sure wouldn't want to place hope in that. The men need to do their duty and tell their people not to circuмcise and if they did, to confess it and not do it again.  That is not only simple, but Catholic. 

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13156
    • Reputation: +8288/-2565
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #187 on: October 21, 2018, 09:55:53 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • Happenby, you are one extreme-thinking individual.  


    Offline Vintagewife3

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 700
    • Reputation: +331/-356
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #188 on: October 21, 2018, 10:00:32 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Ok, circuмcision is not mortally sinful. It is wrong, and shouldn’t be done UNLESS medically necessary, and even then maybe look at other routes. 

    But it’s just not mortally sinful because it doesn’t fall under the 3 things you need for it to be mortally sinful... 

    Offline aryzia

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 382
    • Reputation: +120/-166
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #189 on: October 21, 2018, 10:19:13 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Happenby, you are one extreme-thinking

    Offline aryzia

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 382
    • Reputation: +120/-166
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #190 on: October 21, 2018, 10:21:12 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • That's a compliment for all women who know this is a serious problem.


    Offline Jaynek

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4170
    • Reputation: +2318/-1232
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #191 on: October 21, 2018, 10:23:34 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • No, I’ve not made ANY disparaging comments about women in this thread.  I’ve simply stated truths about human nature.  Only feminists take such truths as offensive because they can’t admit when they’re out of their element, which this thread has proved that you are.

    A general statement about women can be a truth about human nature.  When one makes such a statement in lieu of addressing the actual argument made by a woman it is a disparaging comment.  It basically implies that the woman is wrong simply because she is a woman so it is unnecessary to show what is wrong with her argument.  This is illogical rather than offensive.  Logical arguments are about ideas, not about the people making the arguments.

    This thread has not proved that I am out of my element.  You have not established anything wrong with the facts or logic I used.  I suspect that you are reacting negatively because my tone was somewhat aggressive.  If you have a problem with my tone, I consider it a legitimate criticism and am open to reflecting on it.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13156
    • Reputation: +8288/-2565
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #192 on: October 21, 2018, 10:40:02 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    You have not established anything wrong with the facts or logic I used.
    You try to mix logical arguments with exploratory and conversational ideas.  This is your main flaw.  

    Offline aryzia

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 382
    • Reputation: +120/-166
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #193 on: October 21, 2018, 10:41:17 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Ok, circuмcision is not mortally sinful. It is wrong, and shouldn’t be done UNLESS medically necessary, and even then maybe look at other routes.

    But it’s just not mortally sinful because it doesn’t fall under the 3 things you need for it to be mortally sinful...
    The Church, in the Council of Florence, says  that to observe circuмcision, which means, to do or participate in cutting the male part, results in the loss of salvation, (unless one recovers, which means, confesses). Only mortal sin sends a person to hell. So why do you say it isn't mortally sinful?

    Offline Jaynek

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4170
    • Reputation: +2318/-1232
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #194 on: October 22, 2018, 05:48:25 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • The Church, in the Council of Florence, says  that to observe circuмcision, which means, to do or participate in cutting the male part, results in the loss of salvation, (unless one recovers, which means, confesses). Only mortal sin sends a person to hell. So why do you say it isn't mortally sinful?
    Perhaps there is a bit of confusion over terminology.  There are three conditions for mortal sin: grave matter, full knowledge, deliberate consent.  One would consider all three of these if trying to figure out if a specific case involved mortal sin.  But sometimes, when speaking in general, people say "mortal sin" to refer to objectively grave matter that can potentially be a mortal sin when the other conditions are met.   For example, we often say that abortion is a mortal sin, using it in this latter sense.  It is, however, theoretically possible for a specific instance of abortion not to be a mortal sin, as in the case of a woman forced to have an abortion against her will.

    So, it might be more precise to say that observing circuмcision is objectively grave matter.  It leads to loss of salvation when the other conditions for mortal sin are met.  

    (And this is made even more complicated due to the Novus Ordo tendency to push the knowledge and consent conditions to a point where practically nothing is a mortal sin.  Obviously that is not right either.)