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Author Topic: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision  (Read 16192 times)

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Offline happenby

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Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
« Reply #150 on: October 20, 2018, 08:04:26 PM »
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  • Indeed, otherwise, why does Jesus Christ instruct us in Matthew 18:8-9 that it is better to amputate a hand, foot, or even an eye, than to have it cause you to sin and fall into hell fire.  Perhaps it is better to cut out the tongue than to commit the sin of gossip, to spread untruth, or to teach false doctrines and false interpretations.

    This is a completely different argument because cutting one's hand off to prevent sin is the purpose cited here.  Circuмcision is a Jєωιѕн practice forbidden by the Church because it defines the Jєωιѕн religion.  If you read the statements by St. Bonaventure and others you'd see it has been an insufferable yoke foisted by Jews on people for centuries in order to lead them astray.   

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #151 on: October 20, 2018, 08:11:16 PM »
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  • St. Bonaventure stated, in Meditations, as quoted above:

    “From this time, indeed, the circuмcision of the flesh was abolished, 
    and its obligation ceased, baptism being instituted in its place,
    which is a sacrament of more extensive grace,
    and less repugnant to nature, as being void of pain.”



    Offline happenby

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #152 on: October 20, 2018, 08:16:48 PM »
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  • No other feature was added to the religious ritual until about 140 AD when a second step to the ritual circuмcision procedure was introduced [Periah].  .  After performing "milah", the cutting back of the end of the infant's foreskin, a second step, Periah was then performed. Periah consists of tearing and stripping back the remaining inner mucosal lining of the foreskin from the glans and then, by use of a sharp finger nail or implement, removing all of the inner mucosal tissue, including the excising and removal of the frenulum from the underside of the glans. The objective was to insure that no part of the remaining penile skin would rest against the glans corona. If any shreds of the mucosal foreskin tissue remained, or rejoined to the underside of the glans, the child was to be re-circuмcised.  This is a much more radical form of circuмcision. It was dictated by man, and is not the biblically commanded circuмcision rite. Its introduction has a bizarre history. The rabbinate sought to put an end to the practice of youths desiring to appear uncircuмcised…By introducing the painful and debilitating "Periah" they would obliterate the foreskin completely such that a circuмcised Jew could not disguise "the seal of the covenant.”


    Periah is a man-made barbaric form of circuмcision practiced today.  There is nothing holy, or beneficial in it as it represents a more vicious form of Judaism.  God has released man from the obligation, required His Church to end the practice and still men defend it and carry on doing it.  Mind boggling.
    This is echoed by Dr. David Lang in his article on Circuмcision in “Social Justice Review” (March-April 2011, Vol. 102, No. 3-4, p. 53-56):

    “But how could non-therapeutic circuмcision be forbidden by the natural moral law? Didn’t God command routine circuмcision for all males in the Old Testament, even for infants who could not consent? So how could such an operation be intrinsically unethical? The answer, according to many researchers, is that the Abrahamic-Mosaic circuмcision rite mandated in Genesis 17 is not the same procedure as the modern form…The Old Covenant rite, though painful, involved only what is called brit milah: a token cut (prophetically symbolic of the blood to be shed by the promised Redeemer and a foreshadowing of Baptism) that clipped off merely the overhang flap or tapered neck (akroposthion) of the prepuce…Now this curtailing, though visibly detectable, left sufficient skin to cover the glans, thus maintaining normal male physical function.  Around the middle of the second century A.D., however, the rabbis instituted a much more drastic version…This total uncovering is called brit periahaccomplished by cutting, tearing, and ripping away the whole preputial sheath.  The Jєωιѕн Encyclopedia, in its article on Circuмcision, makes clear that the Muslim practice (essentially milah) differs from the Judaic radical version (periah).  The latter is the brand of surgery performed in modern times with the use of various surgical instruments (probes, forceps, clamps, scalpels).  Without precedent in Christendom, it was adopted in the West by the medical establishment of several English-speaking nations in the nineteenth century, but recently in vogue only in the USA, which for a century has had a high rate of (non-therapeutic) routine male infant circuмcision (RMIC).”

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #153 on: October 20, 2018, 09:35:40 PM »
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  • http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2103.htm#article4


    Quote
    Article 4. Whether since Christ's Passion the legal ceremonies can be observed without committing mortal sin?

    Objection 1. It would seem that since Christ's Passion the legal ceremonies can be observed without committing mortal sin. For we must not believe that the apostles committed mortal sin after receiving the Holy Ghost: since by His fulness they were "endued with power from on high" (Luke 24:49). But the apostles observed the legal ceremonies after the coming of the Holy Ghost: for it is stated (Acts 16:3) that Paul circuмcised Timothy: and (Acts 21:26) that Paul, at the advice of James, "took the men, and . . . being purified with them, entered into the temple, giving notice of the accomplishment of the days of purification, until an oblation should be offered for every one of them." Therefore the legal ceremonies can be observed since the Passion of Christ without mortal sin.


    Reply to Objection 1. On this point there seems to have been a difference of opinion between Jerome and Augustine. For Jerome (Super Galat. ii, 11, seqq.) distinguished two periods of time. One was the time previous to Christ's Passion, during which the legal ceremonies were neither dead, since they were obligatory, and did expiate in their own fashion; nor deadly, because it was not sinful to observe them. But immediately after Christ's Passion they began to be not only dead, so as no longer to be either effectual or binding; but also deadly, so that whoever observed them was guilty of mortal sin. Hence he maintained that after the Passion the apostles never observed the legal ceremonies in real earnest; but only by a kind of pious pretense, lest, to wit, they should scandalize the Jews and hinder their conversion. This pretense, however, is to be understood, not as though they did not in reality perform those actions, but in the sense that they performed them without the mind to observe the ceremonies of the Law: thus a man might cut away his foreskin for health's sake, not with the intention of observing legal circuмcision.

    But since it seems unbecoming that the apostles, in order to avoid scandal, should have hidden things pertaining to the truth of life and doctrine, and that they should have made use of pretense, in things pertaining to the salvation of the faithful; therefore Augustine (Epist. lxxxii) more fittingly distinguished three periods of time. One was the time that preceded the Passion of Christ, during which the legal ceremonies were neither deadly nor dead: another period was after the publication of the Gospel, during which the legal ceremonies are both dead and deadly. The third is a middle period, viz. from the Passion of Christ until the publication of the Gospel, during which the legal ceremonies were dead indeed, because they had neither effect nor binding force; but were not deadly, because it was lawful for the Jєωιѕн converts to Christianity to observe them, provided they did not put their trust in them so as to hold them to be necessary unto salvation, as though faith in Christ could not justify without the legal observances. On the other hand, there was no reason why those who were converted from heathendom to Christianity should observe them. Hence Paul circuмcised Timothy, who was born of a Jєωιѕн mother; but was unwilling to circuмcise Titus, who was of heathen nationality.

    The reason why the Holy Ghost did not wish the converted Jews to be debarred at once from observing the legal ceremonies, while converted heathens were forbidden to observe the rites of heathendom, was in order to show that there is a difference between these rites. For heathenish ceremonial was rejected as absolutely unlawful, and as prohibited by God for all time; whereas the legal ceremonial ceased as being fulfilled through Christ's Passion, being instituted by God as a figure of Christ. 

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #154 on: October 20, 2018, 10:31:12 PM »
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  • Mutilation is a MORTAL SIN.
    We are not allowed as Catholics, under pain of mortal sin, to even get a tattoo!
    Your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost, you are NOT allowed to disfigure.
    ..and if mutilation would save a life?
    .
    There are three conditions that make an act a mortal sin:
    .
    It must be 
    1. grave matter
    2. done with full knowledge of its sinfulness
    3. and full consent
    .
    All three conditions must be met for it to be a mortal sin.
    .
    Such a statement as yours is not tenable without knowledge of the conditions under which so-called mutilation is performed.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024


    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #155 on: October 21, 2018, 08:02:16 AM »
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  • No other feature was added to the religious ritual until about 140 AD when a second step to the ritual circuмcision procedure was introduced [Periah].  .  After performing "milah", the cutting back of the end of the infant's foreskin, a second step, Periah was then performed. Periah consists of tearing and stripping back the remaining inner mucosal lining of the foreskin from the glans and then, by use of a sharp finger nail or implement, removing all of the inner mucosal tissue, including the excising and removal of the frenulum from the underside of the glans. The objective was to insure that no part of the remaining penile skin would rest against the glans corona. If any shreds of the mucosal foreskin tissue remained, or rejoined to the underside of the glans, the child was to be re-circuмcised.  This is a much more radical form of circuмcision. It was dictated by man, and is not the biblically commanded circuмcision rite. Its introduction has a bizarre history. The rabbinate sought to put an end to the practice of youths desiring to appear uncircuмcised…By introducing the painful and debilitating "Periah" they would obliterate the foreskin completely such that a circuмcised Jew could not disguise "the seal of the covenant.”


    Periah is a man-made barbaric form of circuмcision practiced today.  There is nothing holy, or beneficial in it as it represents a more vicious form of Judaism.  God has released man from the obligation, required His Church to end the practice and still men defend it and carry on doing it.  Mind boggling.
    This is echoed by Dr. David Lang in his article on Circuмcision in “Social Justice Review” (March-April 2011, Vol. 102, No. 3-4, p. 53-56):

    “But how could non-therapeutic circuмcision be forbidden by the natural moral law? Didn’t God command routine circuмcision for all males in the Old Testament, even for infants who could not consent? So how could such an operation be intrinsically unethical? The answer, according to many researchers, is that the Abrahamic-Mosaic circuмcision rite mandated in Genesis 17 is not the same procedure as the modern form…The Old Covenant rite, though painful, involved only what is called brit milah: a token cut (prophetically symbolic of the blood to be shed by the promised Redeemer and a foreshadowing of Baptism) that clipped off merely the overhang flap or tapered neck (akroposthion) of the prepuce…Now this curtailing, though visibly detectable, left sufficient skin to cover the glans, thus maintaining normal male physical function.  Around the middle of the second century A.D., however, the rabbis instituted a much more drastic version…This total uncovering is called brit periah, accomplished by cutting, tearing, and ripping away the whole preputial sheath.  The Jєωιѕн Encyclopedia, in its article on Circuмcision, makes clear that the Muslim practice (essentially milah) differs from the Judaic radical version (periah).  The latter is the brand of surgery performed in modern times with the use of various surgical instruments (probes, forceps, clamps, scalpels).  Without precedent in Christendom, it was adopted in the West by the medical establishment of several English-speaking nations in the nineteenth century, but recently in vogue only in the USA, which for a century has had a high rate of (non-therapeutic) routine male infant circuмcision (RMIC).”
    Reading this made me ill.

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #156 on: October 21, 2018, 08:07:14 AM »
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  • ..and if mutilation would save a life?
    .
    There are three conditions that make an act a mortal sin:
    .
    It must be
    1. grave matter
    2. done with full knowledge of its sinfulness
    3. and full consent
    .
    All three conditions must be met for it to be a mortal sin.
    .
    Such a statement as yours is not tenable without knowledge of the conditions under which so-called mutilation is performed.
    Don't be stupid.
    We're not talking about wartime amputations.
    You are NOT allowed to electively desecrate the temple of the Holy Ghost by tattoos, piercings,  etc.  nor take unecessary risks that could result in death. It's a mortal sin because you have FULL consent and knowledge that it is seriously grave.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #157 on: October 21, 2018, 09:42:27 AM »
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  • He's not "arguing against the Church".  Again, you're only proving Pax's point that you're incapable of making distinctions.  What I'm saying, and it sounds like Pax agrees, is that the Church was condemning circuмcision under the formal aspect of being a religious observance.

    "If you want to dominate women to retrieve the masculinity you're lacking ..." ... this is a puerile comment, and should disqualify you from any further input on this issue.

    You and Pax have scattered gratuitous insults of women throughout this thread.  While it is less than ideal that happenby responded to the taunting, it is perfectly understandable.  People of both sexes find it difficult to ignore such treatment.  If she is disqualified from participation for reacting, so ought the ones who made disparaging comments in the first place be disqualified.

    Making logical/philosophical distinctions is a learned skill.  It is unusual for people who have not been trained in this to be able to do it, whether or not they have a Y chromosome.  It is not remarkable when anyone untrained lacks this skill.  It indicates little about that person as an individual or in general.

    If one sees oneself as more skilled than others in this area, one should be grateful that one was given the opportunity to learn it.  People with intellectual skills ought to use them in the service of God and others, not as an excuse to demean those less skilled than themselves.  Even less is it a reason to degrade an entire sex.  If one is truly better at this than others it is a calling to explain such matters clearly and patiently when they arise.  


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #158 on: October 21, 2018, 12:25:44 PM »
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  • You and Pax have scattered gratuitous insults of women throughout this thread.

    No, what we've pointed out is fact.  Women often have their rational faculties impaired by emotion.  You can find plenty of evidence from Fathers and Doctors making the same point.

    For being in favor of wife-beating, your inner feminist emerges rather often.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #159 on: October 21, 2018, 12:31:30 PM »
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  • http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2103.htm#article4

    End of Thread.  St. Thomas makes the same distinction I have been arguing between "observance of legal circuмcision" (note the word "observance" as found in Church teaching) and "cutt[ing] away [the] foreskin for health's sake".  I had not seen this quote, but it's exactly the same thing I have been saying.  And it's not difficult.  Removing the foreskin for medical reasons is formally distinct from observing it as a legality, imposing different formal aspects on the same material action.  I could wash my hands just to clean them or else I can wash them in observance of a ritual ... two different things altogether, with the latter adding a sinful formal aspect to it.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #160 on: October 21, 2018, 01:35:38 PM »
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  • No, what we've pointed out is fact.  Women often have their rational faculties impaired by emotion.  You can find plenty of evidence from Fathers and Doctors making the same point.

    For being in favor of wife-beating, your inner feminist emerges rather often.
    While it may be true that women often have our rational faculties impaired by emotion, you were using it as a personal attack that was irrelevant to the topic.  You used this generalization to dismiss the arguments of your opponents rather than making logical counter-arguments.  

    In the above post you misrepresent me as being in favour of wife-beating and also as being a feminist.  (Which would be rather impressive if true.)  Since you must know that neither of these things are true, it seems likely that you wrote them to provoke an emotional outburst.  I suspect that you would find women less emotional if you did not constantly go out of your way to provoke us.

    If you actually want to communicate with people, either avoid specialized terminology like "formal aspects" and "material action" or define what you mean.  Consider the possibility that your lack of clarity is more of the problem here than the alleged emotionalism of the female participants. 


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #161 on: October 21, 2018, 01:46:09 PM »
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  • While it may be true that women often have our rational faculties impaired by emotion, you were using it as a personal attack that was irrelevant to the topic.

    It was most certainly relevant ... an explanation for whence the faulty reason was coming.  It was obvious post after post that emotional considerations were being injected into the "argument" leading to the various conflations and inability to see the appropriate distinctions.  Your emotional repugnance against the procedure of circuмcision was obviously affecting your judgment.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #162 on: October 21, 2018, 01:48:16 PM »
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  • In the end, my argument and distinctions were thoroughly vindicated by St. Thomas.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #163 on: October 21, 2018, 01:52:38 PM »
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  • In the end, my argument and distinctions were thoroughly vindicated by St. Thomas.
    Do you want to be vindicated or do you want to be understood?  Do you see forum discussions as a contest to win or as a means for Catholics to help each other find the truth?  Are they an opportunity for you to show off all the big words you know or do you wish to share knowledge of the Faith?

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #164 on: October 21, 2018, 01:59:13 PM »
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  • It was most certainly relevant ... an explanation for whence the faulty reason was coming.  It was obvious poster after post that emotional considerations were being injected into the "argument" leading to the various conflations and inability to see the appropriate distinctions.
    If one's opponent uses faulty reasoning it is irrelevant to speculate on its cause.  That is an ad hominem not a logical argument.  Logic deals with the arguments themselves not with the people making them.  Every time you make a personal comment, every time you misrepresent your opponent's position, you are committing logical fallacies.  Somehow being male has not automatically made you logical.

     Your emotional repugnance against the procedure of circuмcision was obviously affecting your judgment.
    My judgment was just fine.  Any emotions I feel around this topic did not affect my ability to discuss it logically.