Author Topic: Traditional Catholic Friendship (Read 11933 times)

BTNYC · « **Reply #15 on:** August 17, 2014, 11:49:16 AM »

Quote from: OHCA

I wasn't immediately sure of what your objection to Impy's post was. But after a bit of research I understand--Impy is subtly/not-so-subtly pushing the envelope with regard to SODOMY & PERVERSION again, huh...

Impy's actions and deeds - and, more importantly, his failure to publicly renounce them - have made him manifestly untrustworthy. Therefore we have every reason to be suspicious when he invokes saints whose names and words are known to have been blasphemously conscripted in service of the selfsame agenda he has shown himself to be an agent of.

This, plus the various other subtle signals - the oblique reference to himself as a "queen," responding to a question directed to women about the attractiveness of a man - give me the distinct impression that we're frogs in a saucepan of water that's getting ever-so-slightly warmer...

Look to that pile of boiled frogs that is Fisheaters and proceed with caution.

BTNYC · « **Reply #16 on:** August 17, 2014, 11:52:09 AM »

Quote from: Judas Machabeus

I'm done here.

We've heard that before, too.

Ekim · « **Reply #17 on:** August 17, 2014, 04:02:48 PM »

So then, where does that leave "Love thy neighbor as thyself for the love of Me."
or
"Hate the sin, love the sinner."
or
"You are the light of the world, let your light shine before men."
or
"Don't hide your flame under a bushel basket."

I guess all bets are off if you have kids. Don't sup with a sinner, only let your kids play with church kids, lock up yourself and your kids from civilization, Store your sacramentals, bottled water, canned food, and hanker down and wait for the three days of darkness???

Is that REALLY what Our Lord meant by go and teach all nations, be the leaven to the bread? Where is the trust in Gods grace? What if momma Bosco never sent her boy away at age twelve? How 'bout Ms Bernadony sending her young son off to aid in the crusades. Was there no sin back then or did they just have a better trust in God and his divine providence than we Traditional Catholics have today?

We spent many, many years traveling to the Latin Mass waking up at 430am to get to Mass by 9. Finally after more years than I can count on one hand a job became available close to Mass. We quickly learned that most people weren't what they pretended to be after all those years. Lady's who would preach to my wife about modesty and the importance of dresses were found scurrying around the isle of Wal -Mart wearing pants. Families who boasted of never allowing a TV in their house had no problems with each one of their kids sitting at their own cubical watching shows streamed from the Internet. Wouldn't it had been better to all sit around as a family with a big bowl of popcorn and watch the show together? A mom with 13 kids who was overwhelmed trying to homeschool by herself and after reaching a breaking point, and with the advise of the priest, enrolled her kids in the most conservative public school she could find was suddenly shunned by the other "lady's " of the parish.

Traditional Catholics seem to have little trust in divine providence. They seem to forget that there are no cookie cutter Catholic templates, no cook book. Each one has to earn their salvation in fear and trembling. I thank God everyday, that when I was a young, dirty, foulmouthed kid from an inner city working class neighborhood, that some kindly adults didn't shun me because they were afraid I'd contaminate their kids or corrupt their Catholic Utopia.

Ultimately, we have no Catholic friends because we lack trust in divine providence. We judge others instead of simply loving them. And many of us use our fear and children as an excuse not welcome strangers into our home and to love them as Christ himself has loved us. Just like the seminarians story in a previous thread, we all put on Catholic facades. We would. never admit that our three year old farted at the dinner table and all the others laughed.

Too many Traditional Catholics try to be this "ideal " person instead of simply being themselves.

Nadir · « **Reply #18 on:** August 17, 2014, 05:13:56 PM »

Ekim, your thoughts on this are on a par with mine. Excellent post! God bless you and yours.

Mabel · « **Reply #19 on:** August 17, 2014, 05:28:37 PM »

Good post, Ekim. This has mostly been my experience too.

Matthew · « **Reply #20 on:** August 17, 2014, 05:44:51 PM »

Quote from: Ekim

So then, where does that leave "Love thy neighbor as thyself for the love of Me."
or
"Hate the sin, love the sinner."
or
"You are the light of the world, let your light shine before men."
or
"Don't hide your flame under a bushel basket."

I guess all bets are off if you have kids. Don't sup with a sinner, only let your kids play with church kids, lock up yourself and your kids from civilization, Store your sacramentals, bottled water, canned food, and hanker down and wait for the three days of darkness???

Is that REALLY what Our Lord meant by go and teach all nations, be the leaven to the bread? Where is the trust in Gods grace? What if momma Bosco never sent her boy away at age twelve? How 'bout Ms Bernadony sending her young son off to aid in the crusades. Was there no sin back then or did they just have a better trust in God and his divine providence than we Traditional Catholics have today?

We spent many, many years traveling to the Latin Mass waking up at 430am to get to Mass by 9. Finally after more years than I can count on one hand a job became available close to Mass. We quickly learned that most people weren't what they pretended to be after all those years. Lady's who would preach to my wife about modesty and the importance of dresses were found scurrying around the isle of Wal -Mart wearing pants. Families who boasted of never allowing a TV in their house had no problems with each one of their kids sitting at their own cubical watching shows streamed from the Internet. Wouldn't it had been better to all sit around as a family with a big bowl of popcorn and watch the show together? A mom with 13 kids who was overwhelmed trying to homeschool by herself and after reaching a breaking point, and with the advise of the priest, enrolled her kids in the most conservative public school she could find was suddenly shunned by the other "lady's " of the parish.

Traditional Catholics seem to have little trust in divine providence. They seem to forget that there are no cookie cutter Catholic templates, no cook book. Each one has to earn their salvation in fear and trembling. I thank God everyday, that when I was a young, dirty, foulmouthed kid from an inner city working class neighborhood, that some kindly adults didn't shun me because they were afraid I'd contaminate their kids or corrupt their Catholic Utopia.

Ultimately, we have no Catholic friends because we lack trust in divine providence. We judge others instead of simply loving them. And many of us use our fear and children as an excuse not welcome strangers into our home and to love them as Christ himself has loved us. Just like the seminarians story in a previous thread, we all put on Catholic facades. We would. never admit that our three year old farted at the dinner table and all the others laughed.

Too many Traditional Catholics try to be this "ideal " person instead of simply being themselves.

First of all, I'd like to ask where you got that apocryphal quote about "Love the sin, hate the sinner." It seems to be over-used in today's sentimental society, and it has no solid foundation. To be honest, I used it too, and that's how I found this out :) So now it's my turn to correct.

Here is the closest thing I could find in Scripture. PLEASE find me something better in Scripture, if you can:

Quote

Wisdom 14:9
But to God the wicked and his wickedness are hateful alike.

Now I'm not trying to rebut or refute your entire post, because you make some good points.
While much of what you say it's true, it's also true that:

* "Cast not your pearls before swine."
* "Water seeks its own level."
* "He who lies down with dogs rises up with fleas."
* "He who touches pitch is defiled with it."

And let's not forget the quote about childhood innocence and the millstone about the neck/being drowned into the sea. Childhood innocence is precious. Once it's lost, it's lost.

So I don't think it's as simple as you make it sound -- "just throw all caution to the wind, and embrace everyone into your home and into your childrens' lives. Let your light shine!"

There's a difference between children under 6 and "older kids". Older kids, yes, you have to teach them how to deal with the world according to their age and ability. Little by little you let them out of your bubble and let them deal with the world and make their own mistakes, as appropriate.

But if you take, for example, signing up your 5 year old for public school -- You might as well give up on having a Catholic child. That's not introducing him to the world, that's throwing a non-swimmer in the deep end for his "swimming lesson".

Now I would never uncharitably shun someone, as the ladies did in your story. I would point out, though, that oftentimes those "worldly" families do some shunning of their own. They don't shop for friends at Church, because they're afraid they might be non-hypocrites, and then they'd be in big trouble.

It is a fact of reality that you don't have polar bears becoming friends with penguins -- outside of Disney movies, that is.

It's also hard for someone like me to pretend I enjoy going to sports games, the beach, Disneyland, the waterpark, etc. when, as a matter of fact, I don't.

Ekim · « **Reply #21 on:** August 17, 2014, 06:53:44 PM »

Amen Brutha! To thy own self be true. I am not a sports person. Never was. I'd much rather drawl, paint, or sew (some Trads would be quick to say that sewing makes me unmanly) But my sons LOVE sports. They love to play soccer, swim, and throw a baseball. Do I not let them join a soccer team b/c I don't like soccer? Do I keep them quarantined because some ill willed child demonstrates poor sportsmanship on the field?

What about a single mom of 13 who's husband works two jobs to make ends meet, She barely made it through highschool. She just can't homeschool. She doesn't have the wisdom, patience, or organizational skills yo make it work. Thirteen kids, each with different temperaments, different curricula, different maturity levels etc. She was on the verge of a nervous breakdown. Home filled with stress and tears constantly fealling like a failure. She looked at over 15 schools along with guidance of her priest. Both agreed that this school would be a good fit. Would God really abandoned this poor woman's five year old? Really? Does this woman who agonized so heartfully at such a decision just abandoned her children to the public school? Ridiculous! Who are we to judge? Who are we to condemn this poor woman's children to hell? Bishop Williamson himself advised that some of the greatest sinners have come from the nobelest of environments while some of the greatest Saints have risen from the bowels of the slums.

Traditional Catholics need to stop judging, labeling, and stereotyping everyone. They need to realize everyone is at a different place on the road to heaven. In true Christian charity we need to help them, encourage them, and pray for them.

Id much rather spend time talking to the new lady at church who shows up in slacks week after week with a genuine desire to learn the Traditional Catholic faith, until that time that God gives her the grace of modesty. Than to spend week after week with the woman in the skirt who only hides in the Wal-Mart isle in slacks on Wednesday.

Mabel · « **Reply #22 on:** August 17, 2014, 07:19:53 PM »

I have met many Catholic families in my travels, I've had few reservations about letting my children play with any of them. I generally find that most families make good companions for my children. I know of one that I wouldn't allow my children alone with, but these children come from a broken home with a very sad set of circuмstances. One of them also threatened to kill one of my children and they are now all in public school.

Our problem is that most Catholics want us to bend to their will. Attend this chapel, sleeves down to the wrist, no sugar for the children, you must condemn other Catholics who do things differently, etc.

As far as adults, if we would not just have a falling out, that would be great.

MaterDominici · « **Reply #23 on:** August 17, 2014, 07:23:00 PM »

Quote from: MariaCatherine

Distance is a factor.

A big one for us!
I know only very few fellow parishioners that don't require $20 in gas money and a trip through city traffic to visit. That's the low end. Some who we see on Sundays live hours away from us. I wish we could say time and money weren't a big consideration, but they are.

Ekim · « **Reply #24 on:** August 17, 2014, 07:23:58 PM »

Ultimately, Traditional Catholics find more reasons to avoid people than to embrace them. They claim it's because they are protecting and growing a strong Catholic faith when in reality they are hiding and sheltering themselves from the very world that God created for them. They lack trust in divine providence and really have very little faith at all, leaving no room at their table for a tax collector or prostitute.

Nadir · « **Reply #25 on:** August 17, 2014, 07:41:04 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

First of all, I'd like to ask where you got that apocryphal quote about "Love the sin, hate the sinner." It seems to be over-used in today's sentimental society, and it has no solid foundation. To be honest, I used it too, and that's how I found this out :) So now it's my turn to correct.

This might be the source. St. Augustine in his Letter 211 (c. 424) contains the phrase cuм dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum, which translates roughly to "With love for mankind and hatred of sins" which might roughly translate to "Love sinners, hate sin." [/b]

I could be wrong.

Matthew, you seem a bit defensive. Did you think Ekim was correcting you?

Mabel · « **Reply #26 on:** August 17, 2014, 07:43:39 PM »

Quote from: MaterDominici

Quote from: MariaCatherine
Distance is a factor.

A big one for us!
I know only very few fellow parishioners that don't require $20 in gas money and a trip through city traffic to visit. That's the low end. Some who we see on Sundays live hours away from us. I wish we could say time and money weren't a big consideration, but they are.

We are fortunate that our kids have friends in the same family. They call each other every few days and even use Skype. In this case, distance was easy to overcome just because the other children are worth the effort. They are really sweet kids and they get along well with mine. We don't always, or almost ever, have this much cohesion between ourselves and another family, so we consider it a blessing.

MaterDominici · « **Reply #27 on:** August 17, 2014, 07:51:44 PM »

Quote from: Ekim

They claim it's because they are protecting and growing a strong Catholic faith when in reality they are hiding and sheltering themselves from the very world that God created for them. They lack trust in divine providence and really have very little faith at all, leaving no room at their table for a tax collector or prostitute.

When you've arrived at the point where you can't see the myriad of reasons people have to do what they do and presume the one and only reason is something lacking in that person, you are being very judgemental.

Matthew · « **Reply #28 on:** August 17, 2014, 08:54:47 PM »

Quote from: Nadir

Matthew, you seem a bit defensive. Did you think Ekim was correcting you?

No, but he's being very simplistic and judgmental and the thread needed some balance.

I am quite angry and offended, however, at your lame attempt at an ad-hominem against my person in this discussion. Is that what you reduce my whole post to? A bunch of flailing, desperate retorts founded on nothing but emotion?

How do you define "defensive"? Is any contrary opinion or disagreement to be interpreted as defensive?

I didn't think I was getting emotional, using all caps, exclamation points, or any of that. My entire post was quite rational.

You said it "seemed" defensive -- well, you can chalk another one up in the "I was wrong" department. Your "feelings" let you down yet again. That just goes to show you how inaccurate "feelings" are!

Matthew · « **Reply #29 on:** August 17, 2014, 09:01:24 PM »

Quote from: Ekim

What about a single mom of 13 who's husband works two jobs to make ends meet, She barely made it through highschool. She just can't homeschool.

She has a much bigger problem.

She doesn't exist.

"A single mom whose husband...?"

I don't think you're thinking very clearly; in this post or any of your other ones.

Why do I get the feeling you're on the outside looking in when it comes to living a typical "Trad" lifestyle? How many kids do you have, Ekim?

You're making the oldest mistake in the book, usually made by NON-TRADS. "If I stop using birth control, I'll end up with 15 kids!!!"

Just because you *could theoretically* means you *will* or that it's even *probable*. Experienced Trads know this.

I know very few Trads with 13 children.