Author Topic: Tradition In Action Disagrees with Williamson on women going to college  (Read 11918 times)

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Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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The following is from Tradition In Action, but this sounds more like Feminsm In Action to me:

http://traditioninaction.org/Questions/F059_University.htm

Quote
First message:

Dear Sir,

Recently it has come to my attention that a certain Roman Catholic traditionalist bishop named Bishop Richard Williamson, has written an article stating that True Roman Catholic Universities are not for True Roman Catholic Girls! Yet in the Middle Ages, the Roman Catholic Church seems to have been so PROUD to have women attend their universities for the purposes of learning there and teaching there!

However, Bishop Williamson has now written an article explaining why it is contrary to Roman Catholic Natural Law and Scholastic Philosophy to admit even True Roman Catholic women, however learned or saintly, to attend even true Roman Catholic Universities for the purposes of learning and teaching there! You can now read it here. And if that weren't enough, I have attached an additional file AGAINST ROMAN CATOLIC WOMEN IN ROMAN CATHOLIC UNIVERSITIES.doc.

In fact, scholar James J Walsh says:

Feminine education did not spread in the West of Europe in the Middle Ages. The reason for this failure of a precious phase of educational evolution was undoubtedly the Héloïse and Abélard incident. Apparently Paris in the 20th century was about to follow Italy in this university tradition of opportunities for women, when this scandal seriously disturbed the West. As most of the western universities, Oxford, Cambridge and the French and Spanish universities, as also those of south Germany, were founded mainly under influence from Paris, the West received a distaste, amounting to positive distrust, for feminine education. {153} So small an incident as this changed the course of history.

Note that this excerpt comes from a Roman Catholic Author, James J Walsh M. D., Ph.D., Sc. D., etc., who in the 1930s, wrote this tract for the express purpose of Catholic Apologetics! He testifies that the scandal concerning Héloïse and Abélard did more than anything else to PREVENT feminine education from spreading further!

If Bishop Williamson had this fact in his hands, he would certainly use this as an irrefutable proof that:

Under the prevailing terms and provisions of Catholic Natural Law and Canon Law as they stood until they were evaded by the innovations and heresies instigated by the Vatican II conciliarist heretical cartel calling itself the Novus Ordo mass Roman Catholic Church, sending Roman Catholic Women to Roman Catholic Universities for the purposes of learning there or teaching there is DELETERIOUS to the modesty and purity of the sexes!

QUOD ERAT DEMONSTRANDUM [this is what has to be proved]  

     J.J.



Second message:

Dear Dr. Horvat,

On the Daily Catholic, I noticed this.

In the Bishop's letter against Girls at University, he explains three natural reasons why it is AGAINST the scholastic philosophy of Aquinas and the Roman Catholic Natural law for True Roman Catholic girls to attend True Roman Catholic Universities. Yet 100 years ago, we found almost NO Roman Catholic Apologetic making the arguments that this Bishop has made! On the contrary, they have always BOASTED that the Roman Catholic Church, as the true exalter and friend and champion of Womankind and patroness of learning, has FREELY promoted the attendance of women at Roman Catholic Universities.

You only need to look at the lives of St. Hildegarde, Maria Agnesi, Clotilda Tambroni, Novella D'andrea, Elena Piscopia Cornaro, Betissia Gozzadini, who all attended or taught at Roman Catholic Universities, without even the LEAST remark from the Catholic Church that these women were transgressing against Natural Law - to realize that the accusations of those protestant sassenach orangemen bigots who accuse the Roman Catholic Church of teaching that "True Roman Catholic girls are not for True Roman Catholic Universities" is blatantly false and malicious!

What do you think of this? Please notify Dr. Atila Guimaraes. Please notify him as soon as you receive this message. I would like his e-mail address. I would also like you to check up on him to see whether or not he has read my message and the file attached. If not, then please send him a copy of EVERY message I have sent you - just to make sure he receives them.

     Love,

     J.J.



Dr. Horvat responds:

Dear J.J.

Mr. Guimaraes is out of the country for two weeks. I am sure he will respond when he will return, although I am not certain when, as he will be catching up with many e-mails and other matters.

     Cordially,  

     Dr. Marian Horvat



The Editor responds:

Dear J.J.,

I thank you for your e-mail and for your consideration in asking TIA for an answer to your question.

Bishop Richard Williamson certainly deserves respect for being a valid Successor of the Apostles and for the important and good orientation he has given many people regarding the evils of Progressivism that have taken over the Church after the last Council.

Even in the 2001 letter you pointed out in your e-mail, he makes many good points when he repeats three principles St. Thomas taught on the role of woman in the church, the home and society. Also, the basic difference he sets out between the missions of the husband and the wife in the family reflects, as much as I can see, Natural Law and the teachings of the Church. The general corruption of customs on today's campuses, principally when students of both sexes live in residence halls at the universities, is a sad reality that must be avoided at any cost as an occasion of sin. Finally, I also agree with the Prelate when he combats feminism, which increasingly has encouraged women to assume masculine roles almost everywhere in social, political and economic careers.

Out of touch with reality

I am much more reticent in agreeing with His Excellency, however, when he pretends to represent the mind of the Church by issuing a diktat forbidding women to go to universities. Some general statements / syllogisms of his letter did not convince me, such as these:
“Women going to university is part of the whole massive onslaught on God's Nature which characterizes our times;”
“True universities are for ideas, ideas are not for true girls, so true universities are not for true girls;”
“University thinking needs to be objective, outward, rational, abstract, large-scale, with a drive towards the grand principles. Her thinking follows her heart. University thinking can only follow the head.”
In these texts, as in his entire argument, His Excellency departs from the presupposition of a university as it existed in the Middle Ages and was described by Card. John Newman: an ensemble of disciplines wisely distributed around philosophy and having theology as their queen. I like this distribution of subjects very much, and I also believe that every human science and knowledge should be ordered toward the glory of God.

What is surprising to me, however, is that His Excellency did not seem to realize that this concept of “true university”- which was valid in the Middle Ages and was still present in some medieval institutions until the two great World Wars - does not apply to the reality around us today.

Characteristically feminine jobs taught at universities

Nowadays, almost every knowledge, profession or practice has been elevated to the university level, including many subjects that are characteristically feminine. For instance,  home economics, which is how to manage a home, is the object of a college degree; interior decoration is taught in architecture colleges; how to deal with children is taught in pedagogy departments. These topics are entirely proper to a woman’s nature and are closely related to her first concerns - her home and children.

If a woman wants to become more distinguished, she may take some languages courses at a university. If she wants to become more cultured, she may go to a fine arts college to study music, painting, sculpting - either in theory or practice -- or to take a course of history or general culture.

If a woman wants to be a nurse or a high school teacher, traditional occupations of Catholic nuns in the past, today she needs college degrees for that.

In these subjects I do not see anything that per se opposes feminine nature. Consequently, I believe a woman may go to a college for such purposes.

Jobs that may be exercised indifferently by both sexes

There are other professions that can be exercised either by a man or a woman. Some examples among many include: pharmacist, dentist, journalist, translator, photographer. Does per chance a pharmacist need to be a man? Perhaps a man would be better to manage the business, but I would say that a woman's  precision in following  a recipe for a cake serves her well to prepare a medicinal prescription.  Why should a dentist or dental technician be a man and not a woman? Either of them can clean your teeth equally well. I agree that, on one hand, the man is stronger to pull a tooth, but, on the other hand, a woman is more careful about the patient's pain. Thus, there are pros and cons that may be discussed, but there is no verdict that necessarily determines dentistry must be exercised by a man. I could continue on in various professions and give examples for each case.

It is my opinion that a woman should not work, but take care of her home and children. But, if she is not married or she cogently needs to work, none of these professions per se will necessarily harm her feminine nature. She may go to the university with peace of conscience and take her degree in order to carry out her métier.

Jobs characteristically masculine

In those professions that are typically masculine, I agree with His Excellency. I give a few examples: military officer, policeman, surgeon, electronic technician, construction engineer. Insofar as courses for such professions are taught in universities, I believe that as a rule a woman should not put her foot in them.

Conclusion of the analysis

In conclusion, it is my opinion that His Excellency was too generic and theoretical. His “true university” does not exist today. What exists is a different reality - there are colleges for many things that are or can be justifiably feminine. He did not take this reality into consideration. Therefore, his conclusion - girls should not go to the university because it violates the feminine nature - is baseless.

Notwithstanding, I believe that due moral precautions must be taken, as he mentions, to avoid occasions of sin and the revolutionary feminism present in universities today.

Here you have my analysis of Bishop Williamson’s article. I hope it will alleviate your affliction.

     Cordially,

     Atila S. Guimarães

Posted January 8, 2013

Offline Telesphorus

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Tradition In Action Disagrees with Williamson on women going to college
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2013, 07:21:06 PM »
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  • Quote
    I am much more reticent in agreeing with His Excellency, however, when he pretends to represent the mind of the Church by issuing a diktat forbidding women to go to universities.


    Did Bishop Williamson forbid women to go to the university and say the mind of the Church says women should never go to the university?

    Quote
    Either of them can clean your teeth equally well. I agree that, on one hand, the man is stronger to pull a tooth, but, on the other hand, a woman is more careful about the patient's pain.


    This is very weak.  I notice he didn't touch the question of women studying for an MD.

    I think Atila is trying to hedge because he knows he has a lot of female readers who won't go along with what he said.

    Bishop Williamson did say there were exceptions, but that he didn't want to make the exception the rule.

    The problem with sending women to the university is that they lack critical thinking and tend to conform to the socially dominant mindset in a place.

    Sending young Catholic women to the university is the spiritual equivalent of the Children's Crusade.


    Offline Incredulous

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    Tradition In Action Disagrees with Williamson on women going to college
    « Reply #2 on: January 17, 2013, 08:12:07 PM »
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  • Could Attila be a little biased... working in the same office with Dr. Marian Horvat every day?

    Of course some women should receive advanced degrees, but I took Msgr. Williamson to be refering to the mainstream and on this point, he's right.

    Today, where would a young American woman go for an education and not become corrupted?

    The novelist Tom Wolfe's book, I am Charlotte Simmons, held the mirror up to America and detailed our extremely corrupt educational system.




    Wolfe became anthema with the universities after writing this novel.

    He showed how the college system purposely indoctrinates and is immerses everyone into modernism. No one graduates uncorrupted.

    Let me go a step further...
    How did this all happen?  

    It appears our elder brother rabbis have put much thought into changing the future of society and mankind...destroying Christendom and taking us away from God.  

    It's all part of ushering in the anti-christ.


    Exhibit A. Israeli Prime Minister Ben Gurion's Dream:  



    Ben Gurion Dream
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Incredulous

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    Tradition In Action Disagrees with Williamson on women going to college
    « Reply #3 on: January 17, 2013, 08:37:29 PM »
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  • Msgr. Williamson's lectures on the roles and relationships between Men and Women contain mostly common sense.

    We've been so indoctrinated (judaized) that it is hard for us to even imagine the sane world he is describing.

    After the Chastisement, we will come to our senses.

    God will be first in our lives.






    Women will be Wives and Mothers and Men will be good Husbands and Fathers.



    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Tradition In Action Disagrees with Williamson on women going to college
    « Reply #4 on: January 17, 2013, 08:44:41 PM »
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  • It's heartening to see that not all Catholic fathers are foolish in the way that seems to be typical among Novus Ordites and Fellayists.


    Offline Graham

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    Tradition In Action Disagrees with Williamson on women going to college
    « Reply #5 on: January 17, 2013, 09:18:27 PM »
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  • In fact, I am reading a book on Medieval education at the moment. It is called The Envy of Angels, published in 1994 and sympathetically written. Now, this is admittedly an argument from silence, but women simply did not figure into educational ideals anywhere, courtly or ecclesiastical.

    The suggestion that a woman can and should go to college/university to learn how to teach her children and decorate her home is pretty funny, and not deserving the time or effort of a refutation. It seems to be acting as a wedge. Get traditional women in there 'learning to decorate' first, then drive the wedge further, and further.

    You can even watch her work the wedge a bit: start with home decorating, end with teaching careers for secular women. Next she'll have single secular women teaching classes of boys, because that's "today's reality", or even at universities, because that's "more distinguished" and hey, they're not real universities anyway.

    Hate to brandish the slippery slope argument here, but I have enough experience with women to know how they work. You'll hear the same appeals to some ill-defined "reality" from pre-teen girls who want cellphones and facebook.

    Why are women going to learn foreign languages when they don't even know how to knit or bake? Let's get our priorities straight.

    Offline PenitentWoman

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    Tradition In Action Disagrees with Williamson on women going to college
    « Reply #6 on: January 17, 2013, 09:59:48 PM »
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  • I think a lot of people do not realize how many prerequisites and general education courses are needed to complete a degree.  I needed philosophy credits and took exact the same ethics course that was mandatory for nursing students. Our first lesson was about moral relativism and how infanticide (by smothering newborns) in Eskimo cultures where food is scarce was justified. (Ethics, Steven Kahn...we skipped the chapter on St. Thomas Aquinas of course) the professor described the sweet babes as either suffering and starving to death...or "gently" being put to sleep by their desperate mothers.
    ~For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen, is not hope. For what a man seeth, why doth he hope for? But if we hope for that which we see not, we wait for it with patience. ~ Romans 8:24-25

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Tradition In Action Disagrees with Williamson on women going to college
    « Reply #7 on: January 17, 2013, 10:14:13 PM »
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  • Quote from: PenitentWoman
    I think a lot of people do not realize how many prerequisites and general education courses are needed to complete a degree.  I needed philosophy credits and took exact the same ethics course that was mandatory for nursing students. Our first lesson was about moral relativism and how infanticide (by smothering newborns) in Eskimo cultures where food is scarce was justified. (Ethics, Steven Kahn...we skipped the chapter on St. Thomas Aquinas of course) the professor described the sweet babes as either suffering and starving to death...or "gently" being put to sleep by their desperate mothers.


    I think those people do realize it PW, they just consider social acceptance to be more important than the Catholic Faith.

    One has to wonder: how many of these second and third generation trads are going to have the kind of families their parents did?

    Not a large percentage - and it's because of the values of their parents.  They prefer to be flattered for empty achievements than to be scorned for being integrally Catholic and actually putting those values first.


    Offline Graham

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    Tradition In Action Disagrees with Williamson on women going to college
    « Reply #8 on: January 17, 2013, 10:18:50 PM »
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  • Quote from: PenitentWoman
    I think a lot of people do not realize how many prerequisites and general education courses are needed to complete a degree.  I needed philosophy credits and took exact the same ethics course that was mandatory for nursing students. Our first lesson was about moral relativism and how infanticide (by smothering newborns) in Eskimo cultures where food is scarce was justified. (Ethics, Steven Kahn...we skipped the chapter on St. Thomas Aquinas of course) the professor described the sweet babes as either suffering and starving to death...or "gently" being put to sleep by their desperate mothers.


    She talks about "taking a language course". Meanwhile, some of the trad girls are taking science and marketing degrees. It's practically a cover-up. And isn't that the standard MO for women? Always in advance of where they'll admit, always aiming to spring the fait accompli, always preparing a justification well in advance.

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Tradition In Action Disagrees with Williamson on women going to college
    « Reply #9 on: January 17, 2013, 10:21:43 PM »
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  • Atila is a woman?


    Offline Graham

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    Tradition In Action Disagrees with Williamson on women going to college
    « Reply #10 on: January 17, 2013, 10:23:44 PM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    Atila is a woman?



    Excuse me, I thought it was Marian Horvat who wrote it.


    Offline Telesphorus

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    Tradition In Action Disagrees with Williamson on women going to college
    « Reply #11 on: January 17, 2013, 10:30:17 PM »
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  • I'm convinced that the university - while often conferring some degree of knowledge in certain fields, leads generally to a darkening of the intellect and a loss of spirituality.

    The suicide of the Catholic family is to send its children, its best blood, to a place to be indoctrinated and quite possible abused for the gratification of its worst enemies.



    Offline Sede Catholic

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    Tradition In Action Disagrees with Williamson on women going to college
    « Reply #12 on: January 17, 2013, 10:43:48 PM »
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  • Succinctly put:

    College for women is entirely futile and can cost them their souls.

    Women do not have logical minds which can sift the lies to the extent that they can refute the garbage fed to them in lectures, and in the books they have to read to complete the course.

    There is no reason for women to attend college.

    College also presents grave moral problems for women.

    Both these points apply to men as well, and are good reasons why men also should avoid college.
     
    But at least a man stands a better chance of seeing through the wicked lies, because men have more logical minds than women.
    Therefore, some men may actually leave college with their Catholic Faith intact.

    Ideally, traditional Catholic men would not attend college.
    But women should certainly avoid college.

    Catholic parents: do not allow your daughters to fall into sin because of college, and thereby deserve Hellfire.


    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    Tradition In Action Disagrees with Williamson on women going to college
    « Reply #13 on: January 17, 2013, 10:51:56 PM »
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  • Ah, this is why I love CatholicInfo. The responses on this thread will be few and far between on any of the other "Traditional" forums.

    Sede, that is an excellent point. People are in serious danger of losing their soul if they attend college.

    A college degree is NOT necessary for women.

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Tradition In Action Disagrees with Williamson on women going to college
    « Reply #14 on: January 17, 2013, 10:52:40 PM »
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  • The other thing to consider is that a man that is college age is still developing mentally and physically.  Still maturing.

    A young woman in college doesn't have to accomplish much of anything to be highly sought after.  She's already at the peak of her social power, and is sought after because of it, while not having the wisdom to know how to handle it.  So for women college is not about being uplifted.  It's mainly about vanity and courtship and vice, those are in fact the main draws of college for women.


     

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