This posting below was in response to a thread about an SSPX priest instructing his parishioners to genuflect less than they do. However, my response has to do with Catholic Living in the Modern World, so I thought I'd continue the discussion here.

Quote from: Sigismund

Why in the world would any Catholic, let alone a priest, with anything resembling sense want to chastise other Catholics for genuflecting TOO MUCH?

Meanwhile, I've never known an SSPX priest that taught the women that tight tops are inappropiate to wear at ANY time. And it seems like practically all the women wear them no matter what age. No?

Quote from: Sigismund

No.  Not all women do.  And if you think this picture illustrates an inappropriately tight blouse, why in the world would you post it here?

This is the same response that I received before when I posted a girl in tight jeans. It is an irrelevent comment.

I posted that picture because by todays standards, that top is loose, and so thought more appropiate than a tighter top. I posted it because I doubt many trad women would consider it obviously inappropiate, like some other tighter tops samples I could have posted.

Moreover, why would you say  "if you think this picture illustrates an inappropriately tight blouse"? It appears that you think it is not. This is not a matter of "my thinking", it is a matter of what all Catholics were taught by priests prior to the 1960's, going back to the beginning of the Church. Are we not traditionalists?

And yet, I have NEVER once seen or heard an SSPX priests tell the women that this is inappropiate. By the way, it has also always been inappropiate for women to cross their legs during mass. Did you know that? How many women cross their legs, and again never a word from the SSPX priests.

The title of "traditionalist" is a very loose term, it really can mean nothing, since people today pick and choose what they like (in courting practices, clothes, birth control, family unity, work, entertainments, etc.).  

I think it looks pretty loose. Any fabric is going to drape itself against the body underneath, and Marilyn's assets were pretty hard to hide.  It is so loose that you can see many places where the fabric  folds over itself, meaning that sweater is probably considered actually a size or two too large for her. I think maybe if you considered Marilyn an unattractive woman, you might think it was perfectly modest. I mean, if some old lady was wearing a similar blouse, you might think it was fine.Maybe  you think she should pad her waistline till her bust disappears?  Unless you think Catholic women should wear burkas?

Exactly as pictured, it was considered inappropiate for all ages and physiques for all of the history of the Church till the late 1960's. What you think today results from your having been slow boiled, no?

I think it looks pretty loose. Any fabric is going to drape itself against the body underneath, and Marilyn's assets were pretty hard to hide.  It is so loose that you can see many places where the fabric  folds over itself, meaning that sweater is probably considered actually a size or two too large for her. I think maybe if you considered Marilyn an unattractive woman, you might think it was perfectly modest. I mean, if some old lady was wearing a similar blouse, you might think it was fine.Maybe  you think she should pad her waistline till her bust disappears?  Unless you think Catholic women should wear burkas?

No tops of knitted fabric might be a good middle ground between clingy tops and burkas. The construction of a fabric changes it's drape.

We used to get sermons on immodest dress a lot. We also used to get sermons about women not wearing pants. (Also about no TV.). That stopped about 8 or so years ago, after a change of priests.

Fr. Emily and the other priests at Los Gatos have talked about immodest dress and no pants for women on the women's retreats I've attended. Fr. Emily also put out flyers at the women's retreat that talked about the gravity of immodest dress. However, the women who were immodestly dressed seemed to ignore the admonishments or else were in denial.

I believe that the SSPX priests have been told to stop preaching on the subject because it leads to the loss of parishioners, just like happens in the Novus Ordo. Life is much easier for priests if they don't have to fight the world and it's allurements.

the women who were immodestly dressed seemed to ignore the admonishments or else were in denial

We can see in your observation the bottom line, and an example of the fact that  the title of "traditionalist" is a very loose term, it really can mean nothing, since people today pick and choose what they like (in courting practices, clothes, birth control, family unity, work, entertainments, etc.). Unfortunately, the children see the hypocracy, and in my personal observations, the children of the hypocrites will end up living in even greater "ignoring & denial", and for all practical purposes abandon living the faith.

The weight of the fabric, the style of the pattern, the size of the bustline, the style of the waistline and the undergarments all affect how a top/blouse looks upon a woman.  This blouse has a nipped-in or tucked-in waist so you cannot expect it to hang straight down which would thus less emphasize the bustline.  Also, if a top/blouse is tucked into the skirt (as opposed to hanging over it), the bustline is more emphasized.  However, the point of drape is still the bustline.

The size of the blouse is determined by the size of the bustline.  That size, in turn, determines how wide to make the neckline and armholes and how far from the neckline the armholes should be.  Example:  If I were to wear a top one or two sizes larger than my size, the neckline would gape open in the front and not lay against my chest (unless it was a turtleneck) and the sleeve seams would hang down the upper part of my arm, giving me a baglady look and also allowing curious eyes to peer down my blouse when I bent forward or was lower than the onlooker, such as when genuflecting.  

Women who are amply endowed need supportive undergarments or else they suffer from back problems.  These supportive undergarments must be constructed in such a way as to support the weight being held and therefore they give shape which you simply cannot avoid except by layering your clothes (a sweater draped over your top or blouse) which is impractical and dangerous to your health in a warm or hot climate and often does not solve the problem.  

Sports undergarments suppress the bustline to a degree but are also unhealthy for daily wear, especially by women who are of childbearing age because they are made of elastic and suppress the delicate tissues and structures needed for nursing.

Women these days have a very hard time finding proper tops.  Skirts and tops are made out of scraps of fabric that are so small that I used to throw them away as useless after making a garment for myself.  I can walk the malls and Goodwill for hours at a time and find absolutely nothing appropriate and I am anything but well endowed.  The fabric is sheer, a lot of tops are made with Spandex (elastic) to make it cling tighter to the body, the necklines are plunging (they need to make a new size called "Implants"), and the colors and patterns on the fabric are way too loud for daily wear, much less appropriate for church.  Sometimes the higher-end manufacturers make more decent clothing but it is expensive unless you find it in a thrift shop.    

Clothes are made for those with money -- the 20s, 30s, not mothers of large families or women in their 40s and over.  The young people want to show off their bodies.  Manufacturers comply.  And yes, it has been getting worse and worse since the 50s and 60s.  Everyone wanted to look like Monroe.  Every man wanted every woman to look like Monroe.  Then there were the hippies who no one but other hippies understood what they wanted to look like.  You tended not to see their bustline for all the vests and hanging, tangled long hair covering the front of their chest, not to mention the guitar.

The best solution is to learn how to sew and how to alter a pattern to allow for extra fabric where needed and live in a cold climate where you can layer your clothes.  The same applies to skirts.  Women are at the mercy of the manufacturers and we are in a sin-ridden world.  

And in case no one has noticed, it seems to me that men's slacks are becoming tighter as well.  I am shocked at times at what I see.  Sex sells.  Modesty doesn't.  

I believe that the SSPX priests have been told to stop preaching on the subject because it leads to the loss of parishioners, just like happens in the Novus Ordo. Life is much easier for priests if they don't have to fight the world and it's allurements.

I was at the SSPX mass at Los Gatos on the Fourth Sunday of Advent. Fr. Emily gave a good and solid sermon first criticizing  how the Novus Ordo does not teach the need for penance anymore. That is why Rome cannot be relied anymore. Fr. Emily then sermoned on how we must reject the evils of the world  ie contraception, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, rock music, television... "The World asks us to be balanced and reasonable, but is the world balanced and reasonable itself?" Fr. of course stressed the duty of state each one of us has to fulfill. It was an engaging, orthodox sermon.

If there is a change in orientation of SSPX priests , it does not seem the case , at least in my area.

I LOVE Fr. Emily!  He is truly inspiring!

If Marilyn's turtle neck is considered immodest I am truly back at square one. I would have judged that as being very modest.  Even the Duggar girls where tops like that.

If knit tops are to be avoided, that is very unfortunate. I would freeze to death without sweaters.  I get teased all the time for my "cutsie conservative" cardigans and turtle necks. I'm genuinely surprised that they not appropriate.

The problem with blouses is that they are either:

Too fitted

Do not button high enough

Look like a man's dress shirt

If bought oversized are too long in the torso and sleeves

Or...they look like a maternity top on me. With a child on the hip and no ring on my finger the last thing I need is to look like I have a baby bump.

bowler, can you post a picture of the type of top (winter) a young woman should wear that meets the criteria for modesty?

I'm not trying to be cynical. I just feel incredibly hopeless and defeated in all things tradition.

.

Don't be discouraged!!   Well endowed women will always be accused of immodesty by someone out there unless they wear only caftans.  We are Catholics not Puritans!   As long as the clothes are not 2 sizes too small, or the fabric too thin, or too low cut and has sleeves it should be fine.  When in doubt ask your priest.  You don't have to dress like a grandma to be considered modest.

Marsha

And some men's jeans are creepy.  Some of the jeans are cut so short in certain areas, that they seem like they are made for women, not men!   :tv-disturbed: