Author Topic: Trad priests and birth control (Read 13914 times)

Telesphorus · « **on:** August 21, 2011, 11:57:47 PM »

We all know that Novus Ordo priests overwhelmingly approve of the use of birth control in the confessional. We know that Benedict XVI has said that condoms could be a "first step towards moralization." His underlings then stated, without correction, that he wasn't only talking about sodomite prostitutes. This opens the door to the rationalization: "If you're going to do it anyway, why not use protection?"

Now, the reason I bring this up, is that I've heard in the past that this advice was given in a traditional Catholic confessional to a woman. (I believe a sede)

Now I'm wondering whether or not we can really trust traditional priests to give Catholic advice or whether we must be very wary of them, as we must be wary of the Novus Ordo confessors?

Pyrrhos · « **Reply #1 on:** August 22, 2011, 12:47:22 AM »

It would seem to me that the majority of traditional priests does not give gravely wrong advice in the confessional. Still, I heard of many examples where the confessor made wrong judgments or did not even know the moral principles. What is equally grave, is the lack of spiritual direction and not seeing and using the potential of a soul.

Thats why I would certainly advice some study in Ascetical and Mystical Theology, and there is certainly nothing wrong with knowing a bit of moral theology for yourself, either...

Elizabeth · « **Reply #2 on:** August 22, 2011, 11:23:53 AM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Now I'm wondering whether or not we can really trust traditional priests to give Catholic advice or whether we must be very wary of them, as we must be wary of the Novus Ordo confessors?

We must be ever-vigilant these days. Particularly in the case of Confession where the lines of epikeia (sp?) are blurred.

I have had gravely bad Confessions and tweaking of the Seal by trad priests, and soul-saving confessions with old (and in one memorable case) young N.O. priests.

Maybe it all depends on where we live?

There are pockets of true Catholic holiness here and there, but we still need to be cautious about everything, IMO.

Queen of Heaven, pray for us.

Matthew · « **Reply #3 on:** August 22, 2011, 11:54:41 AM »

You have to be careful, Telesphorus.

The train of distrust has many stops -- traditional Catholicism, reluctant attendance at most trad. chapels, Sedevacantism, home alone-ism, and the end of the line is Despair. With each stop, you trust less and less.

I've seen plenty of cases of this. For example, many of us were here during the "SGG" blow-up. One character in that drama was Joseph Charles MacKenzie, a well-educated man in his late 40's. He was an SSPX seminarian 8 years ago -- we were actually good friends in our seminary days. Then he got disillusioned with the new French influence, politics, etc. at the seminary (plus, back in his hometown, he started hanging around a *very* bitter sedevacantist named Michael Creighton. No he didn't write Jurassic Park)

Now he's good friends with Bishop Dolan and Fr. Cekada. So tell me -- WHEN he has a falling out with them -- either because of a human dispute, or an awakening to problems surrounding these men, etc. where will he go? Home-aloneism for a while, then probably full-blown Despair at the end.

Very sad. But also very true. The devil is a formidable foe.

So we must be careful to get off at the first stop, and not ride the train any longer than absolutely necessary.

To a certain extent, we should trust our traditional priests -- yes, if they clear-cut contradict something in a traditional Moral Theology manual then we should not trust them blindly. But we always have our "Sensus Catholicus" -- our Catholic sense.

We should give priests the benefit of the doubt. They are intimately connected to the Hypostatic Union. We should, to a certain extent, let Christ deal with them for their defects.

You know how even freemasonic America used to go by the axiom "Innocent until proven guilty"? How much more should traditional Catholics give their traditional priests the benefit of the doubt, until they are *forced* to do otherwise.

Matthew

Telesphorus · « **Reply #4 on:** August 22, 2011, 12:20:31 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

The train of distrust has many stops -- traditional Catholicism, reluctant attendance at most trad. chapels, Sedevacantism, home alone-ism, and the end of the line is Despair. With each stop, you trust less and less.

Couldn't a Novus Ordo attendee say the same thing to a trad? Shouldn't they tell you not to make assumptions, even though I heard with my own ears a priest (as an altar boy NO) a priest telling a woman not to worry about birth control?

I never said there aren't good priests or that people should stay home.

But it is the truth that the same thing that happened to the NO can happen to trad groups and many trad priests. We need to be vigilant. We must not tolerate priests who behave in such a manner.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #5 on:** August 22, 2011, 12:26:51 PM »

Quote

Then he got disillusioned with the new French influence, politics, etc. at the seminary

That's very interesting. I wonder what he didn't like about it?

Matthew · « **Reply #6 on:** August 22, 2011, 12:36:01 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote from: Matthew
The train of distrust has many stops -- traditional Catholicism, reluctant attendance at most trad. chapels, Sedevacantism, home alone-ism, and the end of the line is Despair. With each stop, you trust less and less.

Couldn't a Novus Ordo attendee say the same thing to a trad? Shouldn't they tell you not to make assumptions, even though I heard with my own ears a priest (as an altar boy NO) a priest telling a woman not to worry about birth control?

I never said there aren't good priests or that people should stay home.

But it is the truth that the same thing that happened to the NO can happen to trad groups and many trad priests. We need to be vigilant. We must not tolerate priests who behave in such a manner.

Of course not. That goes without saying.

Mistrusting the Novus Ordo when it's clearly not Catholic and people are dropping like flies is one thing. Carrying that mistrust into your traditional Chapel is uncalled for.

Where is the faith like a child? The childlike trust? The proper humility? Even if you reluctantly move on from your local Novus Ordo parish (which we have all done), you still should resume the same Catholic attitude of BLIND TRUST of the priest God has provided you with. If that priest ends up violating that trust, I'm sure you'll wake up to that fact. But it should be a violent awakening -- not something you saw coming since the day you joined the parish!

Because when you mistrust too much, you often find problems that aren't there.

Anna1959 · « **Reply #7 on:** August 22, 2011, 12:38:49 PM »

Matthew, Your explanation of how things work was spot on. I myself started out Trad Catholic many years ago, then Eastern Catholic when a TLM was not available (you forgot that one, lol), then sede, then home alone, then despair. I won't tell you what the despair stage led me to do, but suffice it to say I AM BACK NOW, and while there is still no TLM near me, I am using online live TLM's (sede) for the time being, until I can find someone who I can share a ride and gas with to go to a sede chapel 2 hours away (I can't drive and my legs are not what they used to be, being much older now!)

Matthew · « **Reply #8 on:** August 22, 2011, 12:41:23 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote
Then he got disillusioned with the new French influence, politics, etc. at the seminary

That's very interesting. I wonder what he didn't like about it?

He spent some time at one or more of the French seminaries (might have been just Flavigny, but he may have gone to Econe as well, I don't remember).

I don't think he cared for many aspects of the French culture. They are much bigger on things like etiquette, behavior, protocol.

And from reports I've heard about Econe, they are also very racist. For example, they'll make jokes about a black man at table right to his face!

They also don't seem to like individuality (even eccentricity) the same way Americans -- and even Bishop Williamson -- do.

Well before +W was exiled to Argentina (and later, to England) he was already referred to in Europe as "Apocalypse now". Thus we can see how low Europe has fallen.

We talked about this in another thread (the one about +W), how they seem to be looking for a "different kind of seminarian/priest" post-2003 (when +W was sent to Argentina).

I personally don't think it was a change for the better. If there was any hope for converting the world without bƖσσdshɛd, it was keeping +W in charge of the North American seminary and churning out zealous, holy, eccentric priests who know how the world works.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #9 on:** August 22, 2011, 12:44:55 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

Where is the faith like a child? The childlike trust? The proper humility?

I mentioned the case because someone brought it up.

As for trusting automatically SSPX priests, that was destroyed when I saw that some of them have no compunction about lying, authorizing other people to lie and using frivolous harassing reports to the police to threaten.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #10 on:** August 22, 2011, 12:47:34 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

He spent some time at one or more of the French seminaries (might have been just Flavigny, but he may have gone to Econe as well, I don't remember).

I don't think he cared for many aspects of the French culture. They are much bigger on things like etiquette, behavior, protocol.

They also don't seem to like individuality (even eccentricity) the same way Americans -- and even Bishop Williamson -- do.

We talked about this in another thread (the one about +W), how they seem to be looking for a "different kind of seminarian/priest" post-2003 (when +W was sent to Argentina).

That was all there was to it?

"The different kind of priest" that we were talking about was more than just a priest who had different manners.

Matthew · « **Reply #11 on:** August 22, 2011, 12:48:38 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote from: Matthew
Where is the faith like a child? The childlike trust? The proper humility?

I mentioned the case because someone brought it up.

As for trusting automatically SSPX priests, that was destroyed when I saw that some of them have no compunction about lying, authorizing other people to lie and using frivolous harassing reports to the police to threaten.

At least you admit you have a grudge, and an axe to grind.

Elizabeth · « **Reply #12 on:** August 22, 2011, 03:07:19 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

And from reports I've heard about Econe, they are also very racist. For example, they'll make jokes about a black man at table right to his face!

They also don't seem to like individuality (even eccentricity) the same way Americans -- and even Bishop Williamson -- do.

Well before +W was exiled to Argentina (and later, to England) he was already referred to in Europe as "Apocalypse now". Thus we can see how low Europe has fallen.

We talked about this in another thread (the one about +W), how they seem to be looking for a "different kind of seminarian/priest" post-2003 (when +W was sent to Argentina).

I personally don't think it was a change for the better. If there was any hope for converting the world without bƖσσdshɛd, it was keeping +W in charge of the North American seminary and churning out zealous, holy, eccentric priests who know how the world works.

100% agreed!

ora pro me · « **Reply #13 on:** August 22, 2011, 03:32:46 PM »

Tele,
You're treading on thin ice here all because of what you "heard". It would really have been best to not go on the www to begin talking about what you "heard" particularly in this regard since you are discussing some unspecifics about someone else's confession.

Quote from: Telesphorus

Now, the reason I bring this up, is that I've heard in the past that this advice was given in a traditional Catholic confessional to a woman. (I believe a sede)

.... Not a good idea to discuss "hearsay" on the internet, in my opinion.

PartyIsOver221 · « **Reply #14 on:** August 22, 2011, 03:39:47 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

You know how even freemasonic America used to go by the axiom "Innocent until proven guilty"? How much more should traditional Catholics give their traditional priests the benefit of the doubt, until they are *forced* to do otherwise.

Matthew

I think actually that this phrase you just exhorted here as cliche is NOT Catholic at all. In fact, the opposite is historically what was done in the judicial arena back when Catholics were "in charge".

I think someone like Raoul or GV would be better able to explain this, as I remember reading some great thread about something similar but can not find it. Maybe even Hobbledehoy knows what I speak of..