Matthew,

You are spot on! You might not believe it if I told you, but I was thinking of posting the exact same kind of post in response to what I have been reading over there lately. The laxity of the "50's Catholic" is what got us in this mess to begin with.

This is what I run into with my own family, my father in particular. He relates back to how things were when he was a kid and believe that to standard on which to base or compare everything we are dealing with in the present. What he and a lot of other people don't seem to "get" is that Catholicism was already in trouble precisely because people tried to just fit in with the neighbors and not rock the boat. Priests in particular started to become more worldly, and soon "Fr. McMick" had a TV and a shiny new convertible (true story) just like everyone else. "Father isn't all that different than us" is the mindset which crept in. Post war consumerism and new found wealth made people soft and comfortable, and then the devil was able to do his work.

When you read about truly Catholic countries and the society that existed when they were at their height, we have never even come close to that in America, even during the supposed height of Catholicism of the 50's.

'I figured out the essence of what's wrong with "other fora".'

I recommend not trying to 'figure them out'.  They are not ever going to see things in a truly Catholic manner.  You will simply frustrate yourself and waste your time and effort.


'They openly admit that the goal of traditional Catholics should be to go back to how things were in the 1950's!'

Some of them do, that's true.  However, unless I am mistaken and assuming we're talking about the same 'other' forum (again), many -- including the owner and some of the moderators -- specifically reject the 1950s as a model of traditional Catholicism.


'Excuse me, but last time I checked 1955 was only 7 years before the start of Vatican II!'

Excellently put.


'Seriously, some people just don't get it. They talk about how "back then, Catholics weren't too rigorist, they fit in, but they didn't necessarily compromise on the Faith..."'

'Fitting in' IS compromising the Faith.

Look, it is this simple.  To which sovereign does a Catholic owe his ultimate loyalty?  To the State?  Or to the Church?  If the State's laws or customs contradict the Church's, which 'trumps'?


'But look how many of them went along with Vatican II -- which can almost be defined as "the Church giving in to the Modern World"!'

Not 'can almost', but 'IS'.


'50's Catholics were NOT well equipped, and 50's Catholicism is something we should RUN FROM as fast as we can.'

Amen, brother Matthew.  Preach on!   :cheers:

By the time of the 1950s, the Modernists were already in place to set in motion the Second Vatican Council.

Remember, the Enemy has been at war with the Church for roughly 2,000 years, since the Crucifixion.  He has been at war with God since the Creation.  Vatican II was his earthly triumph over the mainstream of the Church.

There are certain pivotal events in the history of Creation, of the World, and of Christendom that clearly define Man's (well, a portion of Mankind's, at any rate) increased rebellion against God, His Son, His Church, and the Divine Order.  This rebellion has its antecedents in the War in Heaven, i.e. Lucifer's rebellion against God.  These events are, to the best of my ability to recall, as follows:

* The Fall of Man, i.e. Adam and Eve's disobedience of God.
* The Crucifixion (c. A.D. 36), i.e. the Jєωs' rejection of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
* The Eastern Schism (c. A.D. 1054), i.e. the so-called 'Orthodox' rejection of the Vicar of Christ and the unity of the Church in all of Christendom.
* The Protestant Revolution (c. A.D. 1517), i.e. the so-called 'Protestant' rejection of the unity of the Church in western Christendom, to include (eventually) Britain.
* The Founding of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ (c. A.D. 1717), i.e. another organised rejection of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
* The American Revolution (c. A.D. 1775), i.e. the American colonial rebellion against the British Crown.
* The French Revolution (c. A.D. 1779), i.e. the destruction of the Church, Crown, and nobility in France, 'eldest daughter of the Church'.
* The Revolutions of 1848, i.e. the world-wide Socialist revolutions, esp. in Europe and South America, and the beginning of the Feminist movement.
* The First World War (c. A.D. 1914-1918), i.e. the overthrow of the Catholic Imperial (Habsburg) family.
* The Russian Revolution (c. A.D. 1917), i.e. the Communist Revolution in Russia and the overthrow of the Russian and Prussian imperial families.
* The Second World War (c. A.D. 1939-1945), i.e. the end of significant, organised, armed resistance against Communism.
* The Second Vatican Council (c. A.D. 1962-1965), i.e. the end of significant, organised, moral resistance against Modernism, Feminism, Liberalism, Socialism, and Communism.
* The sɛҳuąƖ Revolution (c. the 1960s), i.e. the triumph of the Feminist revolutions and the resurgence of paganism and Satanism.

We Catholics (in the US, at least) need to start thinking beyond the next election and to start looking back beyond 1775.  We need to start understanding our role in the history of Creation and of Mankind, and realise that history didnt begin with the founding of our country.

Many Catholic Americans tend to idealise the 1950s as the 'glory days' of American culture.  Granted, things were much better in the 1950s than they are now.  Divorce wasnt as much of a plague, neither was abortion (infanticide), contraception, feminism, liberalism, etc.  The Church still, officially, toed the line and taught Catholic Tradition: the Traditional Faith, Mass, Sacraments, customs, and courtesies.  Now, it does not.

But what many Americans do not realise is that America's founding principle was that of Rebellion, i.e. the rejection of authority.  Therefore, our foundation was unstable from the beginning.  It was simply the latest rebellion in a chain of rebellions against Our Lord that began approximately 1,739 years before the colonials declared their 'independence'.

'Independence' has some problems.  Consider: formerly, our civilisation and our society were hierarchial.  The Church ruled Men, princes ruled the nobles, nobles ruled commoners, husbands ruled their wives (sorry if that sounds 'misogynistic', but that is the fact), and parents ruled their children.  Society was organised and harmonious; everyone had a place in the world, a complementary relationship with one another.

What happened?  Catholic Man turned away from God (whether he was induced to or did it of his own inspiration) and (apparently) 'got away with it', humanly speaking.  Content with himself, Man tried to rule without God.

God, however, will not be mocked.  With God discredited, there was no longer an unifying principle to which all men could appeal for maintaining order... other than 'democracy', which is nothing more than rule by the majority, whether that majority exercise its will peacefully or forcefully.

So, the nobles turned against the princes.  Why, you might ask?  Well, why not?  With God removed from society, it's every majority for itself.

Gradually, more rebellions followed throughout Christendom.  Commons rebelled against (err, were 'emancipated from') the noble aristocracy.  Slaves rebelled against their masters.  Wives rebelled against their husbands.  Children rebelled against their parents.

Now, it seems, Nature is 'rebelling' against Man, in a sense, with the insistence on 'animal rights' and 'environmental rights'.  God placed Nature at Man's disposal.  But Man has rejected God...

Tolkien (the authour of The Lord of the Rings as well as an English, Catholic royalist) observed that 'Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel'.  Keep this principle in mind.


'Bishop Williamson (and most SSPX priests) would rather get to the bottom of "what happened" and make sure it doesn't happen again with trad. Catholics of today.'

Bishop Williamson HAS gotten to the bottom of the whole mess.  I've heard him speak on this very subject in almost the same terms.  The problem is that modern men, women, and children -- intoxicated with their so-called 'rights' -- arent listening.

We think, in our pride, that we are sufficient to solve all our own problems... without God's help.  That is to say, without the help of Our Lord Jesus Christ and His Church.  In essence, Men (i.e. men, women, and children) have become their own authorities in determining what is right and what is wrong.

In other words, Man has become his own god.  That is to say, that Man exerts (or tries to exert) ultimate power over every aspect of his existence.

Lord Acton wrote, 'Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.'  I would amend that expression to read 'Without a firm adherence to our Catholic Faith, power corrupts.  Etc.'


'Remember, the 50's Catholics had everything a lucky trad has today -- daily Mass, the TLM, vocal prayers, the Rosary, priests in priestly vestments, Gregorian chant, etc. but THEY lost it -- so we need to figure out WHY so we can make sure that WE and OUR KIDS don't lose it the same way.'

They lost it because they were asleep at the wheel.  The '50's Catholics thought that, since they were tolerated in American society all was well.

They were wrong.

Recall that American society has been notoriously anti-Catholic throughout its history; Catholics are tolerated now because most of them (those who follow the Novus Ordo) are no longer truly Catholic, i.e. most of them place 'the American way' (atheistic materialism) above their Catholic Faith.

So, the fight to restore the Faith isnt going to be easy.  Remember: it took the Enemy almost 2,000 years to undermine the Faith within the mainstream of the Church and, therefore, destroy the theological, moral, and political unity of Christendom.  The challenges facing traditional Catholics probably wont be solved in one or two generations.  Our grandchildren might not live to see the Faith restored.


'You are spot on! You might not believe it if I told you, but I was thinking of posting the exact same kind of post in response to what I have been reading over there lately. The laxity of the "50's Catholic" is what got us in this mess to begin with.'

When Catholic Men set aside their responsibilities and do not remain vigilant, anti-Catholic forces will seek to exploit the opportunities that arise during this dereliction of duty.  They have, and now they hold power.  They will not give it up easily.


'This is what I run into with my own family, my father in particular. He relates back to how things were when he was a kid and believe that to standard on which to base or compare everything we are dealing with in the present. What he and a lot of other people don't seem to "get" is that Catholicism was already in trouble precisely because people tried to just fit in with the neighbors and not rock the boat.'

EXACTLY!  Catholics arent 'just like everyone else'.  We are right; they are wrong.

We believe in objective Truth; they believe in making up their own truths depending on their particular circuмstances in place and time.  We believe in traditional, hierarchial roles for men, women, and children within society; they believe that a family and all of society should be a democracy.  We believe in the sanctity of life from conception to natural death; they believe in contraception, abortion, and euthanasia.  We believe in the indissoluble sacrament of matrimony, the purpose of which is first and foremost the begetting, caring for, and education of Catholic children; they believe in disposable 'marriages', the purpose of which is first and foremost their own, personal 'self-fulfillment'.  And so on.


'Priests in particular started to become more worldly, and soon "Fr. McMick" had a TV and a shiny new convertible (true story) just like everyone else. "Father isn't all that different than us" is the mindset which crept in.'

Egalitarianism is an ugly thing.


'Post war consumerism and new found wealth made people soft and comfortable, and then the devil was able to do his work.'

Right.  Because when you're fat and dumb, you're happy.


'When you read about truly Catholic countries and the society that existed when they were at their height, we have never even come close to that in America, even during the supposed height of Catholicism of the 50's.'

Because we were never truly a Catholic country.  Ever.


Pax Domini sit semper vobiscuм.

Gilbertea,

You forgot how the American Masons helped the revolutionaries of Latin America cast out Catholic Spain.

Later on, didn't the US say they'd go to war with the Spanish or Portugese, if they tried to get their colonies back?

Protocol 13

WE DECEIVE WORKERS
3. In order to distract people who may be too troublesome from discussions of questions of the political we are now putting forward what we allege to be new questions of the political, namely, questions of industry. In this sphere let them discuss themselves silly! The masses are agreed to remain inactive, to take a rest from what they suppose to be political (which we trained them to in order to use them as a means of combating the GOY governments) only on condition of being found new employments, in which we are prescribing them something that looks like the same political object. In order that the masses themselves may not guess what they are about WE FURTHER DISTRACT THEM WITH AMUSEMENTS, GAMES, PASTIMES, PASSIONS, PEOPLE'S PALACES .... SOON WE SHALL BEGIN THROUGH THE PRESS TO PROPOSE COMPETITIONS IN ART, IN SPORT IN ALL KINDS: these interests will finally distract their minds from questions in which we should find ourselves compelled to oppose them. Growing more and more unaccustomed to reflect and form any opinions of their own, people will begin to talk in the same tone as we because we alone shall be offering them new directions for thought ... of course through such persons as will not be suspected of solidarity with us.

4. The part played by the liberals, utopian dreamers, will be finally played out when our government is acknowledged. Till such time they will continue to do us good service. Therefore we shall continue to direct their minds to all sorts of vain conceptions of fantastic theories, new and apparently progressive: for have we not with complete success turned the brainless heads of the GOYIM with progress, till there is not among the GOYIM one mind able to perceive that under this word lies a departure from truth in all cases where it is not a question of material inventions, for truth is one, and in it there is no place for progress. Progress, like a fallacious idea, serves to obscure truth so that none may know it except us, the Chosen of God, its guardians.

5. When, we come into our kingdom our orators will expound great problems which have turned humanity upside down in order to bring it at the end under our beneficent rule.

6. Who will ever suspect then that ALL THESE PEOPLES WERE STAGE-MANAGED BY US ACCORDING TO A POLITICAL PLAN WHICH NO ONE HAS SO MUCH AS GUESSED AT IN THE COURSE OF MANY CENTURIES?