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Author Topic: to know our limits  (Read 991 times)

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Offline spouse of Jesus

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to know our limits
« on: June 27, 2009, 09:25:06 AM »
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  • It is about our relationship with God.
     
    in my ex-faith it was so: Ordinary people must know their limits when they approach god. they should not behave as though they were saints. they should observe the boundaries.

    It is exactly like that: a man's wife and children can use endearing words when speaking to him and can expect him to treat them with the same affection in return. While his co-workers or inferiors should know that their friendship with this man has it's limits, and therefore they cannot be as close to this man as his wife and children are, and cannot expect him to show them any deep affection.

    In the same way we believed that as ordinary (vs. holy) people, we should observe our boundaries in god's presence, know our limits and not try to become too intimate with him. If we failed to do so we would be rude.

    it is like that (sorry if it is too blunt):
    As a student I respect and obey my teacher. But if one day I see her and say:"my love for you consumes me" She will be shocked and will think me to be rude or crazy. Since as a student I should just say:"Hello professor" and "thank you professor"

    So long for telling you what I was taught.
    Now how is it in the catholicism?
    What if I use an intime language when speaking to God?
    What if I expect Him to treat me like a beloved?
    And.. what if I behave in such a way as though I was sure of His love for me?


    Offline Raoul76

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    to know our limits
    « Reply #1 on: June 28, 2009, 12:02:54 AM »
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  • Dear Spouse of Jesus,

    The Catholic religion is a strange one that blends hope and fear, the love of life with the hatred of the world.  These seem like contradictions to those who don't understand.

    You are afraid that you will offend God through your devotion.  You're worried that perhaps you'll go too far and He'll reject you.  Or that you are not worthy of His love.  

    None of us are, yet He loves us anyway.  

    Many who are Protestants or Muslims or Hindus or Jєωs claim to be giving God their whole heart.  They are not going to be more or less damned by the passion they show in a false religion.  Meaning that if they're going to hell, they are going to hell for choosing the wrong faith, not for their degree of "love."  

    Since you love the true Church, I think -- though I am a sedevacantist and believe Vatican II is evil -- you are already far ahead of almost everyone in your country.  It was surely already an act of love for God to bring you on this website, for you to reject the religion of your parents and neighbors and friends, to find the truth for yourself, no matter what the consequences are.

    You can be much more sure that God and Mary are speaking to you than most of us, considering the uniqueness of your circuмstances.  Not many Iranians are Catholic.

    *****

    Jesus says that even above the Ten Commandments, there is the commandment:  "Love God with your whole heart and mind."  He didn't say that casually.  If you have what it takes to devote yourself entirely to the Sacred Heart, then you should do so.  And I know that you have what it takes.  You seem like the type that would die a thousand deaths for Jesus, that will never know happiness without Him.  

    I think you and I are alike in that we have no peace of mind outside of Jesus.  We want nothing on this Earth outside of Jesus.  Still, though my love is strong, I know I still offend Him, that I am weak and make mistakes and am full of pride.  I'll get bored saying prayers, or even refuse to say them sometimes.  I hate to say prayers in the morning.  I hate to check the calendar to see what saints' day it is.  I just want to get my tea and play with the dog.  But considering what He has done for me, I should be praying non-stop.

    This doesn't mean that I don't love Jesus, and He is always in my mind.  But I am greedy.  I take His love and am too lazy to give back.  I am too weak to follow all the rules perfectly, to devote myself to Him perfectly.

    There is a chance that He will send me to hell, and I know that I fully deserve this punishment, not even for my sins of commission but for my sins of omission.  All of this weakness and laziness shows how pitiful my love is compared to His, who came down for us and died so painfully for us.  

    But does this mean I will stop loving Him?  I will love Him from the pits of hell if necessary, if that's where he sends me.  I will be happy even in hell just knowing that He exists, even if I never see Him.

    Maybe what you want is a guarantee that if you give Him all your devotion and commit your whole life to Him, that you will get into heaven.  But none of us have that guarantee.  If God told us we were going to get into heaven, we'd become even lazier than we are.  We would stop trying to please Him as much.  We wouldn't have the fear of God to drive us.

    *****

    Do you know what Jesus' favorite button the keyboard is?

    & & & & & & & & & & & & & &

    He wants more and more and more, there is never enough love that you can give Him.  You give Him love and He will say "And?  What's next?"  Each time you think you have peaked in your love, you will find another mountain to climb.  And the closer you get to the sky, the more beautiful the view becomes.  As long as you have the grace, do not stop climbing.  

    But the devil will attack you, he will make you feel doubt, he will make you say or do the wrong thing sometimes.  This is where you must conquer despair and discover hope.  Not the kind of "hope" that Obama speaks of, hope for this world and for your wallet, but hope that God will forgive your sins and let you gaze upon His face forever.

    *****

    Are you baptized yet?  If you have no priests in Iran, get baptized and then never commit a mortal sin.  Never marry.  That is what I decided to do.  

    ANYONE can baptize you, including your parents, if they say the right words:  "I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost."  You shouldn't do this if there is a priest available, but for you, there isn't a priest available.

    It will be very possible for someone as passionate as you to stay out of mortal sin.  Remember, if you make a mistake, if it is accidental, it is not a sin.  And I don't see you as the type to deliberately offend God.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.


    Offline Raoul76

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    to know our limits
    « Reply #2 on: June 28, 2009, 12:26:40 AM »
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  • Correction:

    I had said "I will be happy even in hell just knowing that He exists, even if I never see Him."

    I was just praying a Rosary and began to feel something was wrong with this.  Then I realized no one can be happy without seeing Him.

    This is one of those times where I try to make a dramatic statement but it backfires on me.

    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline CM

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    to know our limits
    « Reply #3 on: June 28, 2009, 02:49:30 AM »
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  • Well said and well corrected sir.  I actually was shaking my head as I read that part about being happy in hell.  I know what you are getting at, but you know what the worst part of hell is, in my mind anyway?  It the fact that the souls there, in their despair, are blaspheming God for all eternity.  I want no part of that at all, thank you.

    I share many of your sentiments Michael, especially about  the greed and laziness I have towards God, and the just punishment of hell that I truly deserve, and would be suffering as we speak, if not for God's great and wonderful mercy.

    As it stands, though, there is one definite reason why I know you would be condemned: Your lack of belief in the words of God the Holy Ghost.  When His words admit of no exceptions, you cannot make up your own exceptions, even if many fallible men did.  It doesn't matter that they may have been bishops or canonized saints, they are not the pope and cannot overrule, change or explain away dogmatic decrees to make them mean something other than what the words clearly say.

    This is the most important part of anyone's relationship with God.  Knowing to believe everything that He has revealed.  We know that the solemn Magisterium is comprised of Truths fallen from heaven, and so every statement of this Magisterium needs to be believed COMPLETELY and EXACTLY the way it is decreed.  THIS is the Catholic Faith and there is no other.

    So if anyone behaves in a way that they are sure of His love and they do not adhere to what I have just said, then they are terribly deceived.

    Where is the flaw?  There is nothing but truth in stating, as I do once again, that all the words of God the Holy Ghost are to be believed COMPLETELY and EXACTLY as they are uttered through the Pontiffs.  Anyone who believes otherwise is truly selling the dogma of infallibility short, selling God short, a heretic and hellbound.

    It doesn't have to be that way.  Believe God.

    Offline spouse of Jesus

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    to know our limits
    « Reply #4 on: June 28, 2009, 02:50:43 AM »
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  • Thank you Raoul, beautiful post!

    But private baptism can be given only in the case of necessity, otherwise it will be illicit (though valid).
    About not marrying, I have a vow. and it is why I have that signature.
    About the issue of my baptism, please read my other posts.
    I just have to find them and put a link!


    Offline spouse of Jesus

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    to know our limits
    « Reply #5 on: June 28, 2009, 02:59:20 AM »
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  • Offline gladius_veritatis

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    to know our limits
    « Reply #6 on: June 28, 2009, 03:22:21 AM »
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  • History/creation is one huge love story, with God as the pursuer  - and men often fleeing from his embrace.  Most of us fear his love because it is SO intense, and we are not quite ready to be so radically changed.  We love our own disorders, but we know he will not leave us as disordered as he finds us.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    to know our limits
    « Reply #7 on: June 28, 2009, 03:32:03 AM »
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  • Quote from: spouse of Jesus
    While his co-workers or inferiors should know that their friendship with this man has it's limits, and therefore they cannot be as close to this man as his wife and children are, and cannot expect him to show them any deep affection.


    Boundaries does not actually mean that one's affection for ALL others cannot be very deep.  In fact, as he grows in love for God, so does he grow in love for all men, even his enemies.  It is all a question of rightly ordered love. Yes, a man should love his spouse in a special way, but he lacks depth if his love for his fellows is too superficial.  All things in due order, time, and place.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    to know our limits
    « Reply #8 on: June 28, 2009, 03:34:08 AM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    If you have no priests in Iran, get baptized and then never commit a mortal sin.  Never marry.  That is what I decided to do.


    NO offense, but how do you know God's will for her?  If marriage is the path he has marked for her, ANY other will lead to ruin.  It is called HOLY matrimony for a reason, whether or not many do or do not live up to the sublimity of the vocation.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Dulcamara

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    to know our limits
    « Reply #9 on: June 29, 2009, 11:45:55 AM »
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  • One of the beautiful things about our relationship with God, is that He is the one Person Whom we can never love "too much" so long as we love Him properly. You cannot love God too much as a Father, Creator, Judge, etc... Of course "spouse" is typically reserved for those who are bound to Him in the profession of religion.

    For instance, I have vowed myself to God, but I never refer to Him as my Spouse, because although I have promised myself to Him, there has been nothing official done by the Church in this regard, so the sense for me is, I've made this sacrifice, but I will never know if God has accepted it until eternity. If a man makes it to the priesthood, he may be pretty sure God wanted Him to be there. But if I make a decision about myself, there is not really any way for me to know whether or not it pleased God. Whether or not He accepted what I offered. Whether or not it was His will.

    But that being said, I can never love Him enough, even so. All of the love I can direct toward Him in this life, would never be as much as He deserves. But of course, God knows we are only frail human beings, and often are limited by our weakness and sinful nature, so He surely understands.


    "What if I use an intime language when speaking to God?"

    Well, this is not wrong, but we also must be careful not to actually think that we are equal to Him in the way we are to our intimate friends. True, God wants us to come to Him and tell Him everything, and to have a very deep love for Him, but if we find ourselves in danger of becoming proud or careless because of our intimacy, we probably should stick with more formal speech.

    I know that God desires to be close to us, and for us to be close to Him, and so I try to speak to Him always openly as I would a friend, but I always try to do so with the respect I owe Him... I think of Him more as Father and Lord and King, or even the Divine Physician, Who, having created our bodies and souls, is the One who can best cure their ills. But I try not to think of Him in the same way I think of my earthly friends, because I feel it will just put me in a frame of mind where I might indeed offend Him by taking His goodness for granted. (Only the Church could say whether or not I'm right.) But that being said, one can still render to God any amount of sweetness and become very intimate with Him in a number of ways, without "going too far" (in terms of becoming proud, or careless about how we speak to Him, etc.).

    Look at the sweet love a very good child bears their earthly father. What sweet sentiments, and what intimacy can exist there, without the child overstepping any boundaries of propriety. The child owes the father respect, but a little girl who called her father "papa dearest" does no disrespect to his authority or position. But if she lets herself think so casually of him as to think herself entitled to treat him however she pleases, or if she thinks herself entitled to overlook his authority, then, obviously there is a problem.

    The only danger in trying to draw nearer to Our Lord in a very deep and sincere way (which we all need to do in order to achieve holiness), lies in forgetting our true position, our real lowliness, the ugliness of our sins, or the position or authority of God.

    I think one holy book put it this way... If the lord of the house makes a dearly beloved servant or slave a free man, and henceforth treats him like a son, he is pleased if that servant accepts it, and is grateful for it, and happy about it. But if that servant goes so far as to forget what the lord of the house has done for him, and begins to act as though he was never a servant or slave, and begins to treat the lord of the house indifferently or as though they were equals, this does NOT please the lord of the house.

    God has called us children, brothers, sisters... He has redeemed us in His Blood. He said to one chosen soul, that EACH soul is His favorite. I heard that another time, He related to a holy soul that it was once a custom (I forget where) for the man to dance to impress or "win" his bride. He said of His passion and death, "that was my dance." The words of Jesus Himself to His chosen souls are often heart-rendingly tender and sweet and intimate. And He said to one of them, that what He said, He said to every soul. There can be no question, then, of the depth, sweetness and intimacy of His love, since He has laid it out in His own words, time and time again, since the Bible. Therefore it is CERTAINLY not presumptuous to think God loves us.

    Mortal sin kills the life of grace within us, but even then, God still loves us enough to want us to be returned to the life of grace. God's love is not like our love, fading or changing like the direction of the wind. Even in the state of sin, there is no soul God would just love to put in Hell. (Which is to accuse God of the lack of mercy.) He would much rather that every soul go to Heaven, even if many souls, according to justice, do not end up there.

    I think that this is closely related to why despair is a sin. Despair is to doubt in the mercy and goodness and love of God to spare a soul, however blackly steeped in it's sins it may be. It is a sin for the worst sinner that has ever walked the face of the planet, to doubt that God either cannot or would not forgive them. Why? Because God is all merciful, all love. His virtues are perfect and absolute. They do not waver or become imperfect, because of anything that we do. "Or, is it not lawful for me to do what I will? is thy eye evil, because I am good?" Do we attribute imperfection to God's love or mercy, because we are wicked, and perhaps wouldn't forgive our neighbor if they so offended us? But God is perfect, and His ways are not our ways. His love cannot be tarnished or ruined. What tormented Him in the Garden, if not the thought that so many souls He loved STILL would not be saved, even with what He was about to accomplish? For what did He thirst upon the cross, if not those souls, and indeed EVERY soul?

    So we must believe absolutely in His love. Of course, we may not commit the sin of presumption (to say, "He loves me so much it doesn't matter if I sin. He will forgive me" ... Yes, God will forgive us, if we are TRULY sorry. But sin is always wrong, and we may not feel free to commit it just because God is good. How can we say we are sorry, if we committed it so deliberately? God willing, if we commit the sin of presumption, hopefully we will realize how wrong we were, and repent of it! But God will not be mocked, even if He does love us!) Nevertheless, there can be no question of His love for us always. Look at the cross, and see how much He loved us. He died such a death for us, even knowing every sin that would ever be committed. He still wanted the merits of His sacrifice to be there for anyone who was willing to be sorry and return to Him.

    The love of God is immense. But we can neither ignore it or deny it, nor take it for granted.
    I renounce any and all of my former views against what the Church through Pope Leo XIII said, "This, then, is the teaching of the Catholic Church ...no one of the several forms of government is in itself condemned, inasmuch as none of them contains anythi