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Author Topic: Time for Weddings  (Read 1272 times)

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Offline Peter15and1

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Time for Weddings
« on: May 07, 2015, 03:40:10 PM »
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  • According to St. Thomas Aquinas, weddings are forbidden during the following time periods:

    *Advent until Epiphany
    *Septuagesima until the octave day of Easter
    *Three days before Ascension Thursday until the octave day of Pentecost

    The modern church clearly does not follow this, however, I'm not sure even all traditional chapels follow this.  Was St. Thomas discussing dogma here?  Are these restrictions still enforced?

    http://www.newadvent.org/summa/5064.htm#article10


    Online Nadir

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    « Reply #1 on: May 07, 2015, 05:13:22 PM »
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  • No, to both questions.

    But I am more interested in your name. What does it mean? Then back on track!
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline poche

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    « Reply #2 on: May 07, 2015, 10:37:45 PM »
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  • Quote from: Peter15and1
    According to St. Thomas Aquinas, weddings are forbidden during the following time periods:

    *Advent until Epiphany
    *Septuagesima until the octave day of Easter
    *Three days before Ascension Thursday until the octave day of Pentecost

    The modern church clearly does not follow this, however, I'm not sure even all traditional chapels follow this.  Was St. Thomas discussing dogma here?  Are these restrictions still enforced?

    http://www.newadvent.org/summa/5064.htm#article10

    St Thomas Aquinus was discussing matters of discipline. Matters of discipline can change over time.

    Offline Peter15and1

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    « Reply #3 on: May 09, 2015, 08:09:05 PM »
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  • How do we know it is merely discipline and not doctrine?  St. Thomas does not say either way.

    Offline Sigismund

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    « Reply #4 on: May 10, 2015, 01:25:08 PM »
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  • It is certainly not doctrine.  St. Thomas's opinion on when weddings should happen doesn't determine what Church practice should be in all times and places.  It certainly doesn't say anything about the practice of non-Latin rites.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir


    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    « Reply #5 on: May 10, 2015, 01:56:25 PM »
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  • Quote from: Sigismund
    It is certainly not doctrine.  St. Thomas's opinion on when weddings should happen doesn't determine what Church practice should be in all times and places.  It certainly doesn't say anything about the practice of non-Latin rites.


    Got something canonical to quote or just dissin' St Thomas Aquinas?

    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    « Reply #6 on: May 10, 2015, 03:59:05 PM »
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  • Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    Quote from: Sigismund
    It is certainly not doctrine.  St. Thomas's opinion on when weddings should happen doesn't determine what Church practice should be in all times and places.  It certainly doesn't say anything about the practice of non-Latin rites.


    Got something canonical to quote or just dissin' St Thomas Aquinas?


    No, no, in some ways, Sigismund has a point. Remember, he's Byzantine and they follow a different calendar than Latins.
    Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary...

    Offline Sigismund

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    « Reply #7 on: May 10, 2015, 04:53:55 PM »
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  • I am not dissing St. Thomas at all.  I am sure his statement reflected the practice at the time, and I am not suggesting that it shouldn't be the practice now.  I am just saying that the Church is free to change something it is clearly within the disciplinary authority of the Church to change.  Are you seriously suggesting that the Church, the Bride of Christ, doesn't have the authority to  decide to let people get married on the day before Epiphany rather than waiting until the day after because St. Thomas mentioned they didn't do it that way in his time and place? He was the greatest of theologians, but when it comes to jurisdiction he was a mere priest.  Decisions like this are made by popes and bishops.  

    I don't know that the Latin code (either the 1917 code or the 1983 one, which is the only code of canon law in force currently in the Latin CHurch) says on this matter.  It may say exactly what St. Thomas said.  If so, it should be followed, because it is the law of the Church.  Nothing else applies, and nothing else matters.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir


    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    « Reply #8 on: May 10, 2015, 08:50:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: Sigismund
    I am not dissing St. Thomas at all.  I am sure his statement reflected the practice at the time, and I am not suggesting that it shouldn't be the practice now.  I am just saying that the Church is free to change something it is clearly within the disciplinary authority of the Church to change.  Are you seriously suggesting that the Church, the Bride of Christ, doesn't have the authority to  decide to let people get married on the day before Epiphany rather than waiting until the day after because St. Thomas mentioned they didn't do it that way in his time and place? He was the greatest of theologians, but when it comes to jurisdiction he was a mere priest.  Decisions like this are made by popes and bishops.  

    I don't know that the Latin code (either the 1917 code or the 1983 one, which is the only code of canon law in force currently in the Latin CHurch) says on this matter.  It may say exactly what St. Thomas said.  If so, it should be followed, because it is the law of the Church.  Nothing else applies, and nothing else matters.


    The day before would be the Vigil of Epiphany if one goes by pre-1962 calendars, though. That's not a day when weddings should happen. Even if you're not, it's a very hectic time with many feasts of Our Lord - Circuмcision, Holy Family, The Holy Name - I don't think it's a very appropriate time for them.

    After Pentecost and before All Saints is probably the most optimal time for weddings as it is less busy in terms of days, IMO, as there are more III and IV class feast days when the full spectacle of the Wedding Mass can be had.
    Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary...

    Offline Dolores

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    « Reply #9 on: May 12, 2015, 08:08:24 AM »
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  • Quote from: Code of Canon Law (1917), Canon 1108
    Marriage may be contracted any time of the year.  The solemn nuptial blessing only of marriage is forbidden from the first Sunday in Advent to Christmas, inclusively, and from Ash Wednesday to Easter Sunday, inclusively.  The bishop may permit marriage in these seasons for a good reason, even with the nuptial blessing, as decided by S. R. C. June 14, 1918, but the parties must refrain form too much pomp.


    This would seem to make clear that St. Thomas was discussing discipline, and not doctrine, in that section of the Summa.  Unless, of course, the OP thinks the 1917 code is modernist.

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    « Reply #10 on: May 12, 2015, 10:44:58 AM »
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  • Quote from: Dolores
    Quote from: Code of Canon Law (1917), Canon 1108
    Marriage may be contracted any time of the year.  The solemn nuptial blessing only of marriage is forbidden from the first Sunday in Advent to Christmas, inclusively, and from Ash Wednesday to Easter Sunday, inclusively.  The bishop may permit marriage in these seasons for a good reason, even with the nuptial blessing, as decided by S. R. C. June 14, 1918, but the parties must refrain form too much pomp.


    This would seem to make clear that St. Thomas was discussing discipline, and not doctrine, in that section of the Summa.  Unless, of course, the OP thinks the 1917 code is modernist.


    I actually did read the entire section on marriages in the Code of Canon Law (1983) and it doesn't mention any prohibition against weddings at specific times of year but it does give respect to local customs.  It seems, after a first reading, that the local ordinary has a large say in how the practices are carried out.

    My remark to Sigismund was not that I thought he was wrong because even the Angelic Doctor would say that there are always exceptions.  Even on the prohibited days of Good Friday and Holy Saturday, exceptions are allowed in the event of someone being on death's door.  The exceptions are just that, they are exceptions.  My grievance was the tone of insolence that I thought I saw in Sigismund's comment toward the memory of St. Thomas Aquinas.  

    Funny thing is that yesterday I could not find a Code of Canon Law from 1917 that was in English so I couldn't compare the two.  Now that Dolores has done the yeoman's work for us, it is good to know that the changes are that drastic.

    The introduction to the new Code of Canon Law made it clear that it was intended to be a new Code for a new Church with a new Ecclesiology.  Look to the intro on the Vatican's own website and not to individual code descriptions.  The revolutionaries work in broad daylight because in their warped vanity, they fully expect people to not notice.  They are right in that regard because the largest group of Catholics in the post-Vatican II world are those who stopped going to Mass altogether and, in my view, this was the most likely reason for the Vatican II changes.  

    As a form of bullying tactics, the Code of Canon Law (1983) declares null and void all previous Codes whereas Pope St Pius X, having a filiel affection for Holy Church and a love of Our Lord and Our Lady, allowed prior codes to remain standing.  It's just like with Pope St Pius V not abrogating all pius liturgy forms that had been in effect for 200 or more years.  Compare that to Pope Paul VI who commisioned a group of lapsed Catholics (these are the modernist Catholic theologian), openly heretical Protestants (the famous six that did a selfie with Pope Paul VI) and deceiving Masonics (enemies of the Church) to design a Mass based on the Calvinist service and forcing it upon the entire Latin Church.  


    Offline Dolores

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    « Reply #11 on: May 12, 2015, 07:37:54 PM »
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  • To be fair to the NO, on this issue, it seems pretty clear that the trajectory of this issue was, slowly but surely, moving towards permitting marriages with the nuptial blessing at almost any time.  Back in St. Thomas' time, marriages were, apparently, prohibited outright during large portions of the liturgical year.  By 1917 (if not sooner, that may have been a codification of earlier law), marriages were permitted at any time, with only the nuptial blessings prohibited during only Advent and Lent, and even that could be waived by the bishop.

    I'd say the change from the rule expressed by St. Thomas to the 1917 code was a far more significant departure than the change from the 1917 code to the 1983 code.

    Offline Sigismund

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    « Reply #12 on: May 12, 2015, 09:52:36 PM »
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  • Quote from: Dolores
    Quote from: Code of Canon Law (1917), Canon 1108
    Marriage may be contracted any time of the year.  The solemn nuptial blessing only of marriage is forbidden from the first Sunday in Advent to Christmas, inclusively, and from Ash Wednesday to Easter Sunday, inclusively.  The bishop may permit marriage in these seasons for a good reason, even with the nuptial blessing, as decided by S. R. C. June 14, 1918, but the parties must refrain form too much pomp.


    This would seem to make clear that St. Thomas was discussing discipline, and not doctrine, in that section of the Summa.  Unless, of course, the OP thinks the 1917 code is modernist.


    There it is!
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir