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Author Topic: This ones for you, Sig! Fatima!  (Read 3204 times)

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Offline Thorn

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This ones for you, Sig! Fatima!
« on: September 06, 2012, 10:07:44 AM »
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  • I decided to answer your question about why I think as I do about Fatima here as it really was a tangent on the Modesty thread which is already too long & cluttered.
    Before I answer tho, I'd like to give a very brief glance into my upbringing so you may understand my mindset better.
    I started school in Canada where it seemed that the whole world was Catholic, at least my little world. When we moved to the States, most were Prots & we & my aunt & uncle were the only Catholic families around.  We were enrolled in a correspondence catechism class from the diocese. I then went to a Catholic High School where the Religion teacher was a humble, godly priest & I never saw any nun rap a student on the knuckles.  They were what every nun should be.  The priest in our little country church & nuns who helped there were also the epitome of goodness.  At Mass the sermons were ALWAYS strictly on the Gospel - no going off on tangents on other things.
    My parents were humble, hard-working salt of the earth, down to earth, happy  people who lived their faith.  They didn't preach it. I NEVER heard a harsh word between them.  If I could sum up my childhood in a few words it would be joyous, carefree & very close to nature.  I don't remember Fatima being mentioned but maybe it was & I didn't pay attention.
     We were taught that you didn't have to believe in apparitions or visions, and not to go chasing after signs & wonders. So for me Fatima has been neither here nor there.  I heard & read about it but it didn't particularly 'grab' me.
    Then along came Fr. Gruner & more & more Catholics talked about it.  Somehow I was on his list ( I have no idea how he got my name) & since I love to read & read everything that comes in, I read The Fatima Crusader and was struck by how strident he was.  He was really into this! Then he started capitalizing She when referring to the Blessed Virgin.  This bothered me as I had been taught that you only capitalize pronouns referring to God (or in the dictionary it says 'a deity').  To me it was like he was elevating her to a goddess, & I remembered how Christ answered the man when the man praised His mother.
    Fr. Gruner came to a church I was going to, to say Mass & talk about the message of Fatima.  He said Mass but the sermon wasn't about the Gospel.  It was all about Fatima & his travails in getting the message out!  Fatima isn't a dogma of faith & should have been left for a talk after Mass.  The sermon should have been about Christ's words, not Fr. Gruner's.  He got very emotional during the sermon.  He seems consumed with this to the exclusion of all else.

    Where my belief that the devil MAY be involved comes from two things.  One was that most Catholics who believe in Fatima are very insistent that you also believe and to the extent that they do. It has spawned divisions, dissensions, bitterness and bad will among Catholics.  There's the thing about Sr. Lucy being an imposter in later years.  I've seen the pictures & it does seem to me that she is a different person.  Was this to keep Fatima going?  It is a money-maker you have to admit. Other Catholics say she is the same. Some Catholis say the consecration has been done, others declare that it hasn't. You now see the spectacle of Catholic against Catholic!!  What did Christ say about how His followers get along?  All this arguing and ugliness over what?  An apparition that the church has declared that there's nothing against faith & morals in the message & therefore you are free to believe -or not.
    The other thing is that it hampers non-Catholics from entering the Church.  They already believe that we worship Mary & this seems to prove it in their minds.  All Catholics, not just priests, are commissioned to bring all men to Christ & to His Church.  We all need to be good examples & be able to answer questions should a non-Catholc ask.  I think we need to do more to get out there and shed the light of truth to the world.  Now more than ever.  Instead Catholics are arguing about the consecration.
    Maybe it's because of rapid communication but to me there seems to be more & more people having visions now.  They're popping up all over.  And thousands of people rush to them.  Then there's the images on bread, trees, walls, you name it.  I'm not necessarily saying that Fatima sowed the seeds for this.  I'm just saying we need to stick to the Church's traditions, the faith of our fathers & not be conned into all this.  
    I see no problem if you believe in Fatima.  It is possible that Mary did appear to the three children.  We do need to pray more.  Souls are falling into hell at an alarming rate.  The devil is alive & well in the world & if Fatima is of God then maybe he has tried to hijack it for his own ends.  I don't know.  I'm not a theologian.  
    "I will lead her into solitude and there I will speak to her heart.  Osee 2:14


    Offline Thorn

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    This ones for you, Sig! Fatima!
    « Reply #1 on: September 06, 2012, 10:10:34 AM »
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  • Sorry - This one's for you
    "I will lead her into solitude and there I will speak to her heart.  Osee 2:14


    Offline Belloc

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    This ones for you, Sig! Fatima!
    « Reply #2 on: September 06, 2012, 10:29:45 AM »
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  • Quote from: Thorn
    that Mary did appear to the three children.  We do need to pray more.  Souls are falling into hell at an alarming rate.  The devil is alive & well in the world & if Fatima is of God then maybe he has tried to hijack it for his own ends.  I don't know.  I'm not a theologian.  


    Most Catholic do beleive in Fatima, liberal ,Trad and in the middle.....odd you dont....very odd, but.....your last 2 sentences were honestly stated....
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    This ones for you, Sig! Fatima!
    « Reply #3 on: September 06, 2012, 10:44:15 AM »
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  • The false Sister Lucia was planted to make more people accept Vatican II and the NO. It had hardly anything to do with Fatima, which most libs think is "done" anyway.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Offline Belloc

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    This ones for you, Sig! Fatima!
    « Reply #4 on: September 06, 2012, 11:12:58 AM »
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  • Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    The false Sister Lucia was planted to make more people accept Vatican II and the NO. It had hardly anything to do with Fatima, which most libs think is "done" anyway.


    Never was sold on the "false Lucia-she was switched" theory at all.......too scratchy......

    that said, still, do know anyone that writes off Fatima as legit, regardless of the 3rd secret controversy,etc.....
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic


    Offline Thorn

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    This ones for you, Sig! Fatima!
    « Reply #5 on: September 06, 2012, 01:05:09 PM »
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  • Believe it or not, Belloc, I've met other Catholics who don't believe either.  One was even there & is more against it than I am.  
    "I will lead her into solitude and there I will speak to her heart.  Osee 2:14

    Offline Belloc

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    This ones for you, Sig! Fatima!
    « Reply #6 on: September 06, 2012, 01:09:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: Thorn
    Believe it or not, Belloc, I've met other Catholics who don't believe either.  One was even there & is more against it than I am.  


    I beleive it, though dont know anyone personally that in 95 yrs has doubted that Mary appeared nor she gave the children messages,etc......

    Not talking about the controversies, etc, but that an apparition did in fact happen....
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Sigismund

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    This ones for you, Sig! Fatima!
    « Reply #7 on: September 07, 2012, 06:56:36 AM »
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  • Thorn,

    Thank you for replying so completely and thoughtfully to my question.  I up thumbed your post, not because I agree with it, but becasue I appreciate your answer.  
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir


    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    This ones for you, Sig! Fatima!
    « Reply #8 on: September 07, 2012, 12:52:33 PM »
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  • John XXIII could've released what he read when he said "This isn't for our time."  

     

    Offline Nishant

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    This ones for you, Sig! Fatima!
    « Reply #9 on: September 11, 2012, 11:00:17 AM »
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  • Thorn, thank you for your explanation of why you don't believe in Fatima. With respect, however, I feel compelled to tell you that what you are proposing involves very severe errors.

    If we treat all apparitions and pious practices so indifferently, what would survive? Shall we overthrow devotion to the Sacred Heart? Or, the Rosary itself? God forbid. Claiming this isn't "in the deposit of Faith" or hasn't been pronounced on ex cathedra would be grotesque in this case and objectively speaking betray a mentality bereft of the sensus Catholicus.

    Once more, it is the teaching of St.Thomas and that of the Church that private revelations are not for the announcement of new doctrines but for the directions of human acts which can be known with true moral certitude and given a prudential assent.

    The good news is that you don't in any way have to believe any person this way or that who takes one opinion or another on whether specific aspects of the message have not yet or alternately have already been fulfilled as for example, Fr.Gruner, who you said you were not particularly impressed with, does. I've read the Fatima Crusader, that magazine used to be lying around in my house, my grandfather subscribed to it, I thought it had some very good articles, but I didn't always agree with him when it came to Fatima.

    To me, a core part of the message of Fatima, and at least what is under our direct control as lay Catholic faithful, is our own personal consecrations of our lives and our whole beings to her. This is what St.Louis de Montfort had already said many centuries ago, regarding the Holy Slavery of Jesus through total Consecration of our lives to Mary. The same Saint also said that Our Lady in the later ages would do great things around the world to make disciples for this cause who would be totally consecrated to her and be instrumental in the propagation of the Gospel to all nations.
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    This ones for you, Sig! Fatima!
    « Reply #10 on: September 14, 2012, 01:41:13 AM »
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  • Quote from: Sigismund
    Thorn,

    Thank you for replying so completely and thoughtfully to my question.  I up thumbed your post, not because I agree with it, but becasue I appreciate your answer.  


    For the benefit of those who missed it, what was your question?

    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    This ones for you, Sig! Fatima!
    « Reply #11 on: September 14, 2012, 04:54:28 AM »
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  • Quote
    You now see the spectacle of Catholic against Catholic!! What did Christ say about how His followers get along? All this arguing and ugliness over what? An apparition that the church has declared that there's nothing against faith & morals in the message & therefore you are free to believe -or not.



    What did Christ say?

    Matt x. 34 Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword. 35 For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man's enemies shall be they of his own household.

    37 He that loveth father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me, is not worthy of me. 38 And he that taketh not up his cross, and followeth me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for me, shall find it.


    So I'm not sure where you're going with this. When two Catholics do not agree
    on something, do you take that to mean that both of them are wrong, or what?
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Thorn

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    This ones for you, Sig! Fatima!
    « Reply #12 on: September 14, 2012, 10:02:29 AM »
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  • Sorry, Neil, I should have been clearer & quoted Christ.  I don't have the quotes now & will dig them up later.  Basically He said that you would know His followers by how they loved one another.  On the matters of faith we are of one accord. (therefore no fighting, right?)  Then there are the peripherals (like Fatima, exactly what clothes to wear, what to do with our lives & other things not of the deposit of faith) that we will argue over.  So yes, Christ will send the sword, not that this was the end or design of His coming, but that His coming & doctrine would have this effect because of the obstinate resistance that many would have.  As far as 37 is concerned I believe that that is self evident.  If Christ calls you to follow Him, will you choose Him or will you vacillate & maybe choose to do what someone else wants you to do just to keep the peace?  Hope this helps.
    btw just so I'm not plagerizing - the sentence "So, yes,...."  is actually mainly the footnote for 35 in My Bible.
    "I will lead her into solitude and there I will speak to her heart.  Osee 2:14

    Offline Thorn

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    This ones for you, Sig! Fatima!
    « Reply #13 on: September 14, 2012, 10:06:19 AM »
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  • Oops --  my Bible!!  The question was why do I believe as I do about Fatima.
    "I will lead her into solitude and there I will speak to her heart.  Osee 2:14

    Offline Elizabeth

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    This ones for you, Sig! Fatima!
    « Reply #14 on: September 14, 2012, 10:52:13 AM »
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  • Quote from: Thorn
    Believe it or not, Belloc, I've met other Catholics who don't believe either.  One was even there & is more against it than I am.  


     :smoke-pot: