Some may have been seduced and browbeaten, not the ones I remember. Most went willingly, some begrudgingly, others just completely gave up on religion. This revolution was probably the only one in history where the enemies took over without a single drop of innocent blood being shed.

Add to the Scripture you posted the words of Our Lord when he told us to Beware, which fell on deaf ears to all of those who left (and leave) the true religion for the new religion. No matter how you slice it, nobody held a gun to their head and made them lose their faith, yes they may have let themselves be deceived, but they all did it of their own free will, willingly.

I explicitly used two words, "seduced" and "browbeaten." What part of "seduced" don't you understand? In what way is "a gun at the head" seduction???  

I don't know what "Beware" verse you reference. If it is important, please quote the exact verse.

Quote from: Gray2023 on Today at 09:53:48 AM

But I think the way you say it implies that it is not completely our fault.  Do we know for certain that God will show more Mercy to our generation because evil has gotten such a strong foothold in our society?

The way I say it?  For years and in this very thread (!!!) I have explicitly and repeatedly stated our own culpability.

Good.  Sorry I misunderstood it.


Quote from: Gray2023 on Today at 09:53:48 AM

So does this mean that God is setting up most people for failure.  Would God do that? 

 Re-read 2 Thess 2:10-11. GOD, not Satan or oneself, will send the operation of error to believe lies to those who do not love the truth.

Yes.  He sends that to people who do not believe.  God acts differently to those who do believe.  We on CathInfo believe and should pray for the conversions of all those who are still living because they can still convert back to Truth.

Quote from: Gray2023 on Today at 09:53:48 AM

I have learned that any attention good or bad given to demons fuels their power. 

Then why does the Church say that one of Satan's greatest tricks is to make people think he doesn't exist.

As I read your advice, not paying attention to Satan is perilously close to believing he doesn't exist.

The spiritual life is complicated for those who don't believe in evil then you are right the demons will leave them exactly where they are.  For those who do believe in God, the demons will use every means to tempt them away.


Quote from: Gray2023 on Today at 09:53:48 AM

I am not naive in what power the demons have, I just choose not to participate with them and their lackeys.  I focus on the things I can control, offering up my sufferings, prayer, penance, receiving the True Body of Christ, and doing my duty.

 Your plan seems to me like you are driving on the wrong side of the road at night with a blindfold.

I think it is funny that you say my plan to focus on things I can control is wrong.  What does understanding all the things that are against God do for my soul?


Side note:  See I learned how to quote properly.

To accuse me of contradicting myself. It’s pretty black and white to me. We need patriotism for wars and military enlistment. Open borders and female presidents are bad for military enlistment. Far from being a contradiction, it makes perfect logical sense to men who think rationally and think of conflicts and world conflicts.

As others pointed out, there is no contradiction there. Contradictions are two opposing statements. Trump being allowed to win to feed the war machine does not contradict itself in anyway. So to simply state it as contradictory seems to be an illogical, emotional response launching an accusation and an opportunity to “bicker” online.

I'm not Cera, but I wonder whether her meaning of contradicting yourself was that in one sentence you argued your position regarding the election/politics, and then in the other sentence you said arguing politics can be divisive and problematic. I happen to agree with you (and the recent months here have shown you to be correct), but I can see how your comments may have seemed contradictory to her/others.

Correct.  I've talked to many people from the pre-V2 generation and those that stayed with V2 admitted they "wanted the changes".  They wanted an "updated, easier, more modernized" church.  They may have put up a small protest, because they missed the "smells and bells" of the liturgy, but deep down, they went along because the "easier moral code" was worth the trade of changing the Traditional rite.


Those that rejected V2, ended up building Traditionalism that we know today.

Yep, this. Well stated.

I have to disagree with your assessment.  The Jєωs did not take away the faith from anyone.  Faith is a free gift from God to each individual soul and can be freely lost or given up.  Our Lord gives sufficient grace to each and every soul created, this is Catholic teaching. 
On the other hand, the enemies of our Lord infiltrated and propagated a new religion using the Church structure but held no gun to anyone forcing them to embrace it.

You are correct. I was too succinct in that early post and so elaborated thereafter: "seduced and browbeaten" and "apportioning the blame on our 'itching ears,' those 'lying teachers' of 'sects of perdition,' and failure to love the Truth." I have been quite clear that there is personal culpability for assenting to the subversion by Satan and his ѕуηαgσgυє. I even quoted Scripture testifying to both the personal and subversive blame.

"On the other hand," though we do not have prosecutorial proof, there is no shortage of metaphorical "gun to the head" testimony, e.g., the Siri Thesis of nuking the Vatican unless Cdl. Siri refused the papacy.

Both Jєωιѕн subversion and personal culpability deserve blame.  I might observe that the "kiss [Jєωιѕн] ass" faction emphasizes the personal culpabiliity and the "kick [Jєωιѕн] ass" faction emphasizes the subversion and threats from the ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan.

I am still waiting for Stubborn to produce his "Beware" verse… but I wasn't and still am not holding my breath that he will ever put his verse on the table.

Surprise, surprise. Another effeminate hissy fit from Ladislaus. What a self-important twerp.

He's good when it doesn't count, and bad when it does count. A familiar type.

Anyone who doesn't vigilantly and ruthlessly employ the jw-test isn't productive. And that includes employing the test on oneself. I'm jdaized.

Though I didn't care for Croix, I always got a kick out of his ruffling of Ladislaus' tender feathers.

For those of you who don't know, mainly lurkers (the main forum members are pretty useless), JayneK was promoting trannies 10 years (or so) ago on Fisheaters and said, in so many words, "anti-Judaism has nothing in common with Catholicism." Her laughable defense has always been, "I was new to traditional Catholicism." Any half-wit heathen would spot red flags.

2vermont attacked me for criticizing jws on the defunct TeDeum forum. Both are insincere jwess converts. They only will be critical of jws to save face and gain street cred, but with no real gusto. JayneK said she hasn't told her jwish family members that the holocost is a fraud, because there are more important things to tackle. Yeah, right. She could have just lied, which I wouldn't put past her, and say she did tell her jwish family members. But like a typical jw she prefers to test the waters and see what trad Caths will let her get away with.

Be careful about who you trust. 

The jw-litmus reigns supreme!

Anyone who doesn't vigilantly and ruthlessly employ the jw-test isn't productive. And that includes employing the test on oneself. I'm jdaized.

  I think you’re the only one who has any idea what this means.  Good for you. 

For those of you who don't know, mainly lurkers (the main forum members are pretty useless), JayneK was promoting trannies 10 years (or so) ago on Fisheaters and said, in so many words, "anti-Judaism has nothing in common with Catholicism." Her laughable defense has always been, "I was new to traditional Catholicism." Any half-wit heathen would spot red flags.

You accuse me of "promoting trannies" but you actually pretended to be a woman in order to win my trust and trick me into saying something wrong. It was obviously a new Trad mistake. Within the same thread I retracted it when people explained it to me. 

Catholics rejoice when Jews convert to the truth. Your habit of harassing and slandering converts is not recognizable as Catholic.