Author Topic: The Turkey Indult: Did it Really Exist? (Read 2653 times)

Mr G · « **on:** November 09, 2018, 12:24:53 PM »

https://forum.tradidi.com/t/the-turkey-indult-did-it-really-exist/197

Good research from "Seraphim"

See above link for details and research, below is the conclusion for us lazy types:

"Thus, a few things now come into sharper focus:

In other words, they were not granted by a traditional Catholic Pope, but by conciliarists who in 1962-1965 were already jumping the tracks of sound Catholic ascetical practice.

In light of the foregoing, there also seems to be an even more reasonable support to the “faulty memory” theory of those elderly trads (referenced earlier in the quotes between “Anonimus” and “Wenceslav”) who so many decades later swear they can recall the “turkey indult” under Pius XII:

During the years that these local dispensations were given by the bishops during the conciliar years of John XXIII and Paul VI (not Pius XII), the liturgy was still in a transitional stage: From 1962 to 1963 to 1965, to 1967 the Mass which was being eroded still looked very traditional in comparison to the full-blown Novus Ordo which was to follow a few years later (even in the transitional liturgical years of 1962-1967).

In hindsight, did these peoples’ memories mistakenly associate what still looked like the traditional Mass (in comparison to the Novus Ordo, anyway) with Pope Pius XII and the pre-conciliar years, thereby causing them to think after many years that the turkey dispensations came from Pius XII, when in fact they came from the conciliar bishops in the years of John XXIII and Paul VI?

The evidence unearthed thus far by “Wenceslav” certainly leads one to that conclusion.

And given that conclusion, should a traditionalist really be eating meat on Friday, when all the evidence points to the non-existence of any “turkey indult” (at least, one promulgated by a traditional pope or bishop, that is)? "

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #1 on:** November 09, 2018, 01:49:02 PM »

You learn something every day. Thanks. That's the end of that, we will not eat meat on Friday after Thanksgiving. No big loss there.

Markus · « **Reply #2 on:** November 15, 2018, 06:42:58 PM »

Correct, it does not exist.

And even if it did exist, we should simply view it as another conciliarist concession. It should be rejected.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #3 on:** November 15, 2018, 09:04:33 PM »

Even if it came during the time of Pius XII, it’s still a concession to modern man. I was under the impression that the relaxation came from the US Bishops, not the pope. It’s only related to the US, so these types of changes to vigils and abstinence usually come from bishops’ conferences.

Mr G · « **Reply #4 on:** November 21, 2018, 12:34:44 PM »

UPDATE:

Seraphim
4
12d

Mithrandylan (co-owner and moderator of Trad Forum, cited above) has now settled the matter definitively, by finding the missing reference to p. 584 of Canon Law Digest referenced in the OP:

“I have a transcription: (have an image but it’s in a really weird format, can’t seem to upload it. I can email it to anyone who’s interested, just PM me). All formatting, etc. original:

Quote from: Canon Law Digest, Vol 1., Bouscaren (ed).

New Faculty of Bishops in United States to Dispense from Fast and Abstinence on Legal Holidays (Letter, S.C. Conc.) Private.

His Excellency P. Fumasino-Biondi, Apostolic Delegate to the United States, addressed the following communication to the Bishops:

The Sacred Congregation of the Council, in a Letter dated 15 Oct., 1931, informs me that, in view of the difficulties experienced by the faithful in observing the laws of fast and abstinence on civil holidays, His Holiness, Pius XI, in the audience of 5 Oct., 1931, granted to all the Ordinaries of the United States, ad quinquennium, the faculty to dispense their subjects from the laws in question whenever any of the civil holidays now observed occurs on a day of fast and abstinence, or of abstinence.
The Most Reverend Ordinaries, in dispensing on such occasions, will please inform the faithful of this Indult of the Holy See, and exhort them, in view of the dispensation, to make some offering especially in favor of the poor.
(Private); S.C. Conc., 15 Oct., 1931.
Homiletic and Pastoral Review, 32-416; E.R., 86-65, 190
ETA: ad quinquennium faculties are for five years (which is why the others scans all indicate the indult being extend for “another five years.””
http://thetradforum.com/index.php?topic=608.0 2

Summary:

An indult was promulgated by Pius XI which was NOT a national dispensation, but a faculty extended to the bishops to exercise or not;
We know from Wenceslav’s work above (and the additional work he has completed in researching several diocesan archives), that the individual bishops rarely exercised this indult until Vatican II;
Most importantly, there is nothing in the indult which pertains to extending the dispensation to the day AFTER a national holiday (anymore than there could be a legitimate “firecracker indult” if the 4th of July fell on a Thursday, allowing Catholics to eat meat on Friday, July5);
That this illegitimate extension of the indult only began to pop up during and after Vatican II completely exonerates the pre-Vatican II popes of ever having authorized Catholics to eat turkey on the Friday after Thanksgiving.
There is no reference to a dispensation for the Friday after the national holiday anywhere, by anyone, until Vatican II.

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Case closed.[/font][/size]

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #5 on:** November 21, 2018, 01:12:57 PM »

.
The dispensation for Catholics in America for allowing the eating of meat on the Friday following Thanksgiving Day (in America) predates refrigeration, going back to the late 19th century, when the national observance of Thanksgiving Day was gradually growing into an annual practice..
.
This dispensation for Americans is over 100 years old now, and there is no reason to be scrupulous about it.
.
There's no need to conflate this topic with any other national holidays that might fall on Thursday.
It is a dispensation specifically for the Friday following Thanksgiving Thursday, whenever that occurs.
E.g., there is no such dispensation for the day after Christmas when Christmas falls on Thursday.
So this is a special allowance for one day specifically, the Friday following Thanksgiving Day in America.
.
There is a similar dispensation in Ireland for St. Patrick's Day when it falls on Friday (but not for Friday the 18th when St. Patrick's day is Thursday).
.
You don't have to worry about abstinence from meat on the Friday following Thanksgiving Day in America.
.
Of course, if you want to abstain anyway, and freeze your leftovers, or make a lot of turkey pies but don't taste the ingredients, knock yourself out.
.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #6 on:** November 21, 2018, 01:27:48 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on November 15, 2018, 09:04:33 PM

.
Even if it came during the time of Pius XII, it’s still a concession to modern man. I was under the impression that the relaxation came from the US Bishops, not the pope. It’s only related to the US, so these types of changes to vigils and abstinence usually come from bishops’ conferences.

.
It predates refrigeration, which predates Pius XII. Refrigeration was only in its infancy in 1914, the start of WWI, and was not widely available until the late 20's or 30's. Even then, it was too expensive for people of modest means.
.
The Catholic Bishops in America are the source, not the Pope.
And it's unique to America, since Thanksgiving Day was unique to America.
Since it's such a big occasion and practiced nationwide, the profusion of leftovers being kept fresh for two days without refrigeration was an issue.
Of course, there could have been a practice of feeding the poor with leftovers, but still, that would have been on Friday, so abstinence had to go.
Just for one day!

.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #7 on:** November 21, 2018, 02:12:47 PM »

That makes total sense and I agree, it was just for America. Thanks for confirming!

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #8 on:** November 21, 2018, 02:32:48 PM »

Quote from: Mr G on November 21, 2018, 12:34:44 PM

Quote from: Canon Law Digest, Vol 1., Bouscaren (ed).

New Faculty of Bishops in United States to Dispense from Fast and Abstinence on Legal Holidays (Letter, S.C. Conc.) Private.

His Excellency P. Fumasino-Biondi, Apostolic Delegate to the United States, addressed the following communication to the Bishops:

The Sacred Congregation of the Council, in a Letter dated 15 Oct., 1931, informs me that, in view of the difficulties experienced by the faithful in observing the laws of fast and abstinence on civil holidays, His Holiness, Pius XI, in the audience of 5 Oct., 1931, granted to all the Ordinaries of the United States, ad quinquennium, the faculty to dispense their subjects from the laws in question whenever any of the civil holidays now observed occurs on a day of fast and abstinence, or of abstinence.

The Most Reverend Ordinaries, in dispensing on such occasions, will please inform the faithful of this Indult of the Holy See, and exhort them, in view of the dispensation, to make some offering especially in favor of the poor.

(Private); S.C. Conc., 15 Oct., 1931.
Homiletic and Pastoral Review, 32-416; E.R., 86-65, 190

ETA: ad quinquennium faculties are for five years (which is why the other scans all indicate the indult being extend for "another five years.”
http://thetradforum.com/index.php?topic=608.0 2

.
From an SSPX site, the contents is slightly different:
.
In 1931, Pope Pius XII gave an indult to the American bishops allowing them to dispense with Abstinence on any penitential day that was a civic holiday and on the Friday that followed Thanksgiving Day. (Canon Law Digest, vol. 1.)

The United States bishops had the faculties to dispense the faithful from the obligation to fast and abstain on penitential days that fell on civic holidays.

2Vermont · « **Reply #9 on:** November 21, 2018, 02:38:03 PM »

Neil, the issue is that despite the fact that all traditional Catholic priests state that there was a Friday after Thanksgiving indult/dispensation, no one can find proof that there was such an indult/dispensation. So, according to this thread (and others on other blogs/forums) all of these priests have been teaching Catholics to sin. I can't be the only one who takes issue with that.

Seraphina · « **Reply #10 on:** November 21, 2018, 03:13:24 PM »

It did definitely exist in some dioceses in the U.S. My parents, ages 93 and 89, my great aunt, age 96, and my parents' neighbor, 95, all remember this clearly from their childhoods in Brooklyn, Queens, and Manhattan. Immigrant New Yorkers in the Depression were more often than not without refrigeration, so it was permitted to eat turkey leftovers on Friday following Thanksgiving. No other meat was allowed, and acts of penance, the giving of alms, in particular, were encouraged. This allowance was made not by the Pope, nor by the Catholic Bishops Conference. It was limited to particular dioceses, usually those in large urban areas where poor Catholics resided.

Matthew · « **Reply #11 on:** November 21, 2018, 04:26:06 PM »

So let's get this straight --

The faculty was given to Catholic Bishops to dispense from abstinence on civic holidays. Others insist that a further dispensation was in fact given for certain dioceses where poor Catholics without refrigeration lived. Would this apply to us today? Do the Trad bishops we follow take advantage of this dispensation and apply it to us?

But in general, how does this "Turkey Indult" apply to us in the current year?

Thanksgiving is on Thursday, not Friday. So there's no conflict with celebrating the civic holiday. As for the leftovers, that has been a moot point for about 70+ years. Everyone, even the poorest Americans on welfare, have at least one refrigerator. Keeping leftovers preserved for 2 days is easy even in the refrigerator -- freezing or processing the turkey into pies isn't necessary. We're talking about 2 days, not 2 weeks! Saturday isn't that far away. Your leftovers will be fine.

And just like we tell all our Novus Ordo friends, even if we did take advantage of something like this, it doesn't mean we're off the hook for Friday abstinence! We have to get out our checkbook or wallet and give an alms, or do some EXTRA work of penance to make up for the sacrifice we aren't making that day.

I think it's easier to just give up the meat, and this is coming from someone for whom Fridays are very hard. I usually eat meat at every single meal, including breakfast, snacks, and right before bed. My side dishes usually have meat, and even my meat has meat on it.

To get any more meat in my diet, I'd have to start using frozen chunks of meat in my iced tea.

Let's just say I could never be a vegan. In fact, vegans have put out a bounty on my head.

Matthew · « **Reply #12 on:** November 21, 2018, 04:37:19 PM »

Quote from: Neil Obstat on November 21, 2018, 01:27:48 PM

.
It predates refrigeration, which predates Pius XII. Refrigeration was only in its infancy in 1914, the start of WWI, and was not widely available until the late 20's or 30's. Even then, it was too expensive for people of modest means.
.
Since it's such a big occasion and practiced nationwide, the profusion of leftovers being kept fresh for two days without refrigeration was an issue.
Of course, there could have been a practice of feeding the poor with leftovers, but still, that would have been on Friday, so abstinence had to go.
.

None of this is relevant to today. So why do so many Catholics take advantage of this Indult today? Because "whee! Novus ordo laxity!"

i.e., the same thrill they get never having to fast or abstain, or do any kind of penance at all throughout the year. Today's Catholics aren't legitimately needing to eat their leftovers on Black Friday to avoid food waste. This is 2018, about as far removed from the 1930's as you can get. Even the poorest families today have refrigerators.

2Vermont · « **Reply #13 on:** November 21, 2018, 05:22:46 PM »

I wonder whether it has more to do with the fact that families didn't always celebrate Thanksgiving on Thursday due to extended or large families. In my family we have not celebrated Thanksgiving on a Thursday in years... due to certain family members going to in-laws to celebrate it on Thursday. Our big meal has been on the Friday after.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #14 on:** November 21, 2018, 06:44:26 PM »

Even if the relaxation isn’t relevant, if it’s still a relaxed law, it still applies. The arguments against its relevancy need to be directed to the Bishops. I understand that the relaxation is unnecessary but I’m interested in getting clarity on the law, first, and the need, second.

Author Topic: The Turkey Indult: Did it Really Exist? (Read 2653 times)

Mr G

The Turkey Indult: Did it Really Exist?

Last Tradhican

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Markus

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Mr G

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Neil Obstat

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Neil Obstat

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Pax Vobis

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Seraphina

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Matthew

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