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Author Topic: The theology of animals  (Read 3738 times)

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Offline Simeon

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Re: The theology of animals
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2023, 07:17:49 AM »
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  • Hello, Simeon.

    Is not Isaias 11:6-10 a glimpse into Heaven on earth being manifested by animals along with saved people, after Our Lord returns, destroys His enemies and Antichrist, and judges the living and the dead? Why wouldn't animals be in Heaven now? Why would God allow any of His creation to go to waste for eternity except souls who willfully separate themselves from Him? 

    Hi White Man! :)

    The Heaven of the Blessed is Divine Contemplation by definition. This gift is reserved to rational and to intellectual beings - men and angels. With the exception of the bodies of Our Lord and Lady, and very likely St. Joseph (if there are no others), the Heaven of the Blessed is currently populated by souls separated from their bodies. These Elect are enjoying eternal beatitude according to a mode entirely spiritual. They are waiting for the Judgment, upon which they will be resurrected from the dead and restored to their material bodies.

    The universe is to be destroyed by fire, and then re-created:

    2 Peter 3: The heavens were before, and the earth out of water, and through water, consisting by the word of God. Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished. But the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of the ungodly men . . . But the day of the Lord shall come as a thief, in which the heavens shall pass away with great violence, and the elements shall be melted with heat, and the earth and the works which are in it, shall be burnt up . . . all these things are to be dissolved.

    Apoc 21: And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth was gone, and the sea is now no more. And I John saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And he that sat on the throne, said: Behold, I make all things new.

    Gen 1: In the beginning God created heaven, and earth. And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters . . .

    Summa I, q. 66, a. 1: Article 1. Whether formlessness of created matter preceded in time its formation?

    As far as may be gathered from the text of Genesis a threefold beauty was wanting to corporeal creatures, for which reason they are said to be without form. For the beauty of light was wanting to all that transparent body which we call the heavens, whence it is said that "darkness was upon the fact of the deep." And the earth lacked beauty in two ways: first, that beauty which it acquired when its watery veil was withdrawn, and so we read that "the earth was void," or "invisible," inasmuch as the waters covered and concealed it from view; secondly, that which it derives from being adorned by herbs and plants, for which reason it is called "empty," or, according to another reading [Septuagint], "shapeless"—that is, unadorned. Thus after mention of two created natures, the heaven and the earth, the formlessness of the heaven is indicated by the words, "darkness was upon the face of the deep," since the air is included under heaven; and the formlessness of the earth, by the words, "the earth was void and empty."

    The Heaven of the saved souls separated from their bodies - the Heaven where all who have died in the Lord are waiting for the resurrection of their bodies - is not that which shall be re-created and adorned like a bride. It is a participation of beatitude and eternity, but it is still a place of waiting for an ultimate fulfillment. In this abode there are no animals, or other material beings - excepting Our Lord and Lady.

    The corporeal creature was made for man. It's terminus is not Divine Contemplation. This is the term of man and angels alone. Animals and plants were not created for the purpose of one day contemplating the Essence of God. They were created as an adornment of the earth, for the sake of man. If we say that animals are in Heaven, we need to qualify our meaning.

    The new heavens and the new earth, saith St. John, shall be adorned like a bride. We are speaking here, perhaps, of two realities - corporeal and spiritual. After the world is destroyed by fire, and after God recreates the heavens and the earth, He will adorn them, as He adorned creation in the Beginning. The plants and animals we expect to see in a blessed eternity will be the adornment of the new heavens and the new earth.

    Whatever of material being we may find ourselves enjoying in Heaven, will be ordered to our enjoyment of God. We will never abuse it or seek it for its own ends. It will exist for the glory of God and the happiness of the Elect.   

    Offline WhiteWorkinClassScapegoat

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #31 on: May 15, 2023, 06:12:50 PM »
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  • Hi White Man! :)

    The Heaven of the Blessed is Divine Contemplation by definition. This gift is reserved to rational and to intellectual beings - men and angels. With the exception of the bodies of Our Lord and Lady, and very likely St. Joseph (if there are no others), the Heaven of the Blessed is currently populated by souls separated from their bodies. These Elect are enjoying eternal beatitude according to a mode entirely spiritual. They are waiting for the Judgment, upon which they will be resurrected from the dead and restored to their material bodies.

    The universe is to be destroyed by fire, and then re-created:

    2 Peter 3: The heavens were before, and the earth out of water, and through water, consisting by the word of God. Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished. But the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of the ungodly men . . . But the day of the Lord shall come as a thief, in which the heavens shall pass away with great violence, and the elements shall be melted with heat, and the earth and the works which are in it, shall be burnt up . . . all these things are to be dissolved.

    Apoc 21: And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth was gone, and the sea is now no more. And I John saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And he that sat on the throne, said: Behold, I make all things new.

    Gen 1: In the beginning God created heaven, and earth. And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters . . .

    Summa I, q. 66, a. 1: Article 1. Whether formlessness of created matter preceded in time its formation?

    As far as may be gathered from the text of Genesis a threefold beauty was wanting to corporeal creatures, for which reason they are said to be without form. For the beauty of light was wanting to all that transparent body which we call the heavens, whence it is said that "darkness was upon the fact of the deep." And the earth lacked beauty in two ways: first, that beauty which it acquired when its watery veil was withdrawn, and so we read that "the earth was void," or "invisible," inasmuch as the waters covered and concealed it from view; secondly, that which it derives from being adorned by herbs and plants, for which reason it is called "empty," or, according to another reading [Septuagint], "shapeless"—that is, unadorned. Thus after mention of two created natures, the heaven and the earth, the formlessness of the heaven is indicated by the words, "darkness was upon the face of the deep," since the air is included under heaven; and the formlessness of the earth, by the words, "the earth was void and empty."

    The Heaven of the saved souls separated from their bodies - the Heaven where all who have died in the Lord are waiting for the resurrection of their bodies - is not that which shall be re-created and adorned like a bride. It is a participation of beatitude and eternity, but it is still a place of waiting for an ultimate fulfillment. In this abode there are no animals, or other material beings - excepting Our Lord and Lady.

    The corporeal creature was made for man. It's terminus is not Divine Contemplation. This is the term of man and angels alone. Animals and plants were not created for the purpose of one day contemplating the Essence of God. They were created as an adornment of the earth, for the sake of man. If we say that animals are in Heaven, we need to qualify our meaning.

    The new heavens and the new earth, saith St. John, shall be adorned like a bride. We are speaking here, perhaps, of two realities - corporeal and spiritual. After the world is destroyed by fire, and after God recreates the heavens and the earth, He will adorn them, as He adorned creation in the Beginning. The plants and animals we expect to see in a blessed eternity will be the adornment of the new heavens and the new earth.

    Whatever of material being we may find ourselves enjoying in Heaven, will be ordered to our enjoyment of God. We will never abuse it or seek it for its own ends. It will exist for the glory of God and the happiness of the Elect. 

    Thank you for this masterful exegesis, Simeon. 
    Our Lord bless you and Blessed Mary protect you. 


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #32 on: May 15, 2023, 06:32:46 PM »
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  • Fathers and theologians say that the order in the animal kingdom also broke down with Original Sin.

    But, yeah, lots of dogs will eat not only their own feces but also the feces of other animals.

    How this discussion developed an off-ramp to coprophagy, is anyone's guess, but I'll weigh in:

    Some animals eat feces for reasons of nutrition, or even sheer instinct, and there is nothing disordered about it.  It's just part of nature.  Mother cats will eat the feces of their kittens as an instinct to keep predators from finding it and detecting the scent.  Flies eat feces because, well, that's what they do.

    Carry on...

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #33 on: May 15, 2023, 07:02:07 PM »
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  • Of course animals weren't designed for the Beatific Vision, but it doesn't mean they can't/won't exist alongside of those who do.  God created them as a perfection in nature, and so it would be difficult to imagine that this perfection would be lacking in Heaven also.

    Sure, everything is ULTIMATELY ordered toward God, but it does not means that there will not be other sources of beauty there in Heaven, other reflections in different ways of God's Beauty.  God created human beings to have discursive intellects, and there's nothing to make is believe that these discursive mind would somehow be suspended.  At that point, why create all these other things in Heaven at all?  God could just allow human beings to remain disembodied souls in Heaven forever.

    Offline Admiral

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #34 on: May 25, 2023, 09:59:51 PM »
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  • Apparently these stories come from a book from TAN that's unfortunately no longer in print, the asking price for which is about $36 used.

    https://www.traditionalcatholicpublishing.com/the-church-and-kindness-to-animals


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #35 on: May 26, 2023, 06:47:47 AM »
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  • St. Thomas is clear on the point.

    Can you give an example of some real being that is both immaterial and mortal?

    I thought it was incontrovertibly certain that there are only three categories of immaterial being: God: Angels: Man:

    Is there a fourth category of which I am unaware?

    Material being is composite, not simple.

    Can you cite any reason God cannot create something both immaterial and mortal?  I believe that the capabilities of animals, and of all living things transcend anything that can be explained by purely material causes.  Not that this immaterial principles can exist on its own without being joined to matter in a composite (though, as I mentioned, God could certainly create something that's immaterial, mortal, and does not require being joined to matter).  I'm not a Platonist and don't hold that forms have their own independent being, but I do believe that the forms of living beings are immaterial and can't be explained by purely material causes.

    I also believe that there was a class of angel that was in between the purely spiritual angels and man, but that's a separate issue.  We can't put limits on what God can or has created.

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #36 on: May 26, 2023, 06:53:33 AM »
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  • I also believe that there was a class of angel that was in between the purely spiritual angels and man, but that's a separate issue.  We can't put limits on what God can or has created.
    Gnomes, elves, faeries...
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #37 on: May 26, 2023, 07:08:43 AM »
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  • Gnomes, elves, faeries...

    Not quite.  I'm referring to those "sons of God" that came down and mated with the "daughters of men" in Genesis (and the Book of Enoch).


    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #38 on: May 26, 2023, 08:57:19 AM »
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  • Explaining the soul, I used to tell my students, "Your dog Fido knows you, but he does not know that he knows you. That is reflective thought, which he does not have, nor does he have the capability; the little one-year old child for that matter does not know that he knows, but he obviously has the capability, because once he attains the use of his reasoning powers, he is capable of doing this action.  Hence he is capable of moral acts once he knows that he knows."   

    The instinct of some animals is amazing.  As a child my family had a full-blooded German Shepherd named Prince.  We moved to an apartment, and my dad took the dog to a farm about twenty miles outside town.  That dog broke his chain and came and sat on an apartment porch which he had never seen before.  He covered twenty miles and found an apartment which he had never seen before - pretty incredible. 
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #39 on: May 26, 2023, 09:47:38 AM »
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  • Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on Today at 07:53:33 AM
    Quote
    Gnomes, elves, faeries...


    Quote
    Ladislaus said:
    Not quite.  I'm referring to those "sons of God" that came down and mated with the "daughters of men" in Genesis (and the Book of Enoch).


    These 2 ideas are more connected than you think, in my opinion.  The offspring of this unnatural union were the giants, who had both angelic and human qualities.  Many of the Church Fathers said that when the giants died, their souls still had angelic qualities and they did not go to hell.  Part of their punishment was to "roam the earth" until the end of time, always seeking human things because part of their nature was human and gone forever.

    Thus, there is a difference between those who are pure evil angels (i.e. demons) who are in hell, and those who are evil part-angels (i.e. evil spirits) who roam the earth.  These "evil spirits" would account for all manner of things which we see around us - possessions, hauntings, ghosts, etc.

    It could also account for the stories of the past, i.e. gnomes, elves, fairies, etc.  Typically, evil spirits are attracted to nature (or at least, they avoid cities, where churches and praying goes on).  And witches and such worship nature and do all their occult stuff in remote areas.  So any place where there's a vast forest or remote area is typically associated with strange evil events.  But such do exist and the "giants" who roam the earth would explain it.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #40 on: May 26, 2023, 12:09:21 PM »
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  • Wow, great thoughts coming from this subject. As a farmer i was always interested in 'cruelty to animals.' I had to deal with those 'animal-rights' crowd and once ended up in a university debating the subject with that lot. Now I think we all understand what can be classed as human cruelty to animals. Nobody should tolerate that and if intentional could be classed as sinful as a priest told me at school. Now it is most difficult to debate the 'rights' of animals without bringing in the creation as designed by God. God gave humans the rights over animals. He ordered the killing of lambs; a right that farmers have used since the Fall of Adam to house, rear and kill sheep, cows, pigs, chickens, and whatever other creatures used for man's needs. But as human beings we know the difference between proper farming and cruelty and that is the difference between a human and an animal.
    The lecture hall was packed with students and I have no doubt most were with that PETA lot that deemed caging animals, be it in fields, kennels, cages or whatever, was cruelty to animals.

    At that stage I brought in nature itself. How many I asked were appalled with videos of lions dragging down any wild beast they can get their claws into and begin to eat while the animal id dying? the same can be said of snakes, sharks and crocodiles. Doesn't nature make PETA look foolish, I asked.

    All this animal rights, I told them, started when Walt Disney gave a mouse a human intellect. PETA and the likes now go around campaigning to those who think animals understand the world like humans. They do not as any lion would tell you if they spoke human language. So a horse, cow or sheep in a field, or a pig in a sty, or a chicken in a coop or cage, does not think they are imprisoned, they simply look for food and water as their nature needs. A good farmer, I said, like me, makes sure their environment is clean and as comfortable for that animal as possible, feeds and provides water for them, and they are as 'happy' as their nature allows. Yes, there are animals like dogs that nature has given a better relationship with humans than others, but they too have limits. 

    An animal runs from a lion, that is in its nature, but when caught does not think like a human caught by a lion would think. Animals react to killing and suffering but they do not understand their killing and suffering like a human would or does. That is the difference between an animal and a human. As a theist, one could ask would God create creatures to control their numbers on Earth and call it 'good,' if they understood life and death like we do?
    Surprisingly, I won that debate.

      


    Offline Simeon

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #41 on: May 27, 2023, 07:43:57 PM »
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  • Can you cite any reason God cannot create something both immaterial and mortal?  I believe that the capabilities of animals, and of all living things transcend anything that can be explained by purely material causes.  Not that this immaterial principles can exist on its own without being joined to matter in a composite (though, as I mentioned, God could certainly create something that's immaterial, mortal, and does not require being joined to matter).  I'm not a Platonist and don't hold that forms have their own independent being, but I do believe that the forms of living beings are immaterial and can't be explained by purely material causes.

    I also believe that there was a class of angel that was in between the purely spiritual angels and man, but that's a separate issue.  We can't put limits on what God can or has created.

    You said that you believe that the capabilities of animals, and of all living things, transcend anything that can be explained by purely material causes.

    The First Cause of all material being, both animate and inanimate, is Pure Spirit. All capabilities of living things originate from Pure Spirit, and reflect spiritual attributes. All determinations and instincts proper to the natures of living things, were placed there by Pure Spirit. The bee makes honey because his immaterial Creator placed in his bee nature certain determinations and instincts  - not because he, the bee, is the author and inventor of honey-making.

    I believe that the transcendence of material natures resides in the inability of unaided human reason to fathom the depths and the secrets of Creation. We can know the essences of material beings, but we cannot penetrate material composition with perfect comprehension. Such comprehension is reserved for the Blessed in Heaven.

    You speculate the possibility of certain composites, but you are unable to cite examples of real beings possessing such natures. This does not make you a Platonist, but your intellect is grasping immaterial and imaginative forms, and no more.

    Can I cite any reason God cannot create something both immaterial and mortal? Yes, I can; and the reason pertains to the qualities of created natures. That which is immaterial is spiritual; and that which is spiritual is immortal.

    Man is both material and spiritual. His spiritual soul is immortal, because it is spiritual. His body is corruptible, because it is material. Without preternatural and supernatural endowments, the body must decay. Man is a special, and a very mysterious creation. But his homostatic nature does not violate the principles of spirit or matter. Those principles are immutable.  

      

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #42 on: May 27, 2023, 11:09:22 PM »
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  • Right, but I think that we're talking about different types of causes here.  God is obviously the ultimate cause of all creatures.  What's at issue is whether a purely material proximate cause can account for not only things like instincts, but even the complex organization and differentiation of cells into the the various organs that make up a living animal.  I don't believe that they can.  There must be some principle that transcends the material to account for these things, the animal soul, which I hold to be immaterial per se even if it can't exist outside of matter.  When the cells of a newly-formed organism begin to divide, they are identical, and each cell contains the entire blueprints of the entire organism within it (the genetic code), but what principles cause some cells to start differentiating into heart cells, others into eye cells, and then within each organ for the different cells to star organizing themselves into sub-functions?  Just the workings of the ear or the eye by themselves require a nearly miraculous organization, and self-organization of cells is not possible unless there's some higher principle organizing them.  And I don't believe that God directly intervenes in this process, but that there's an immaterial animal soul that governs these types of processes.  When inanimate substances, such as rocks and dirt form, those can easily be explained by chemical processes, and there's nothing going on there that transcends the capabilities of the matter itself, but its a far different thing with animals, and even plants.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #43 on: May 27, 2023, 11:10:10 PM »
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  • Can I cite any reason God cannot create something both immaterial and mortal? Yes, I can; and the reason pertains to the qualities of created natures.

    No, God most certainly can create an immaterial mortal creature.  God could will us or the angels out of existence this very moment.  In fact, it's only because He continues to will us to exist that we continue to exist.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #44 on: May 27, 2023, 11:14:12 PM »
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  • Man is both material and spiritual. His spiritual soul is immortal, because it is spiritual. His body is corruptible, because it is material. Without preternatural and supernatural endowments, the body must decay.

    Before the Fall, the body did not corrupt, as it was united and in perfect subjection to the soul.  That was not a preternatural or supernatural state at all, but the natural state in which God created man.  In fact, even the purely material components of the world that God will establish after the Last Judgment will not be subject to corruption.