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Author Topic: The theology of animals  (Read 3280 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The theology of animals
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2023, 06:56:23 PM »
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    I actually believe that God will probably have some animals in Heaven, and might even raise back to life some of the animals that human beings were close to in life.  There's certainly nothing preventing Him for doing so anyway.  God created animals in the first place because they represented some aspect of the perfection of His creation, and so the reconstituted earth presumably would not be lacking whatever prefection of creation they represented
    Yes, I think some saints have postulated (I could be wrong; it's been a long time) that at the end of time, after the General Judgement, that God will "renew the earth" (which is referenced in the Apocalypse) and the entire planet will be like the Garden of Eden.  Thus, those that are saved will have the ability to visit all of earth's wonders and the animals there will be docile, friendly and loving. 


    Imagine the story of the Cure of Ars, where he denied himself even the simple pleasure of looking upon the new technology of the railroad.  Or imagine some cloistered nun in France, who never got to see the Eiffel Tower (due to her penance of joining the monastery).  Wouldn't God make it possible for such saints to experience such worldly pleasures in eternity, after they gave up such for the Glory of God?  Surely, God would make such possible.

    Even the idea of visiting a certain period in time...i.e. to see how the pyramids were built, to see the famous battles of christianity, to see Charlemagne crowned king...such matters are human concerns, but they do provide some human pleasure, and how would God, the author of Time itself, not provide that to those that are faithful to Him?

    And, in a far lesser miracle, I think God would make it possible for those animal lovers to see their 'long lost pets' or even to make friends with 'new pets' on the new, renewed earth.  Eternity is a LONG time.  And God would reward sensible creatures (i.e. humanity) with such sensible pleasures, in addition to heaven's spiritual heights.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #16 on: May 10, 2023, 07:26:43 PM »
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  • And, in a far lesser miracle, I think God would make it possible for those animal lovers to see their 'long lost pets' or even to make friends with 'new pets' on the new, renewed earth.  Eternity is a LONG time.  And God would reward sensible creatures (i.e. humanity) with such sensible pleasures, in addition to heaven's spiritual heights.

    God raised animals back to life through St. Francis of Assisi, his pet lamb and then also a  fish ... so there's that precedent.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #17 on: May 10, 2023, 07:30:48 PM »
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    God raised animals back to life through St. Francis of Assisi ... so there's that precedent.
    The Lord be praised!  I had not heard this.  Thank you.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #18 on: May 10, 2023, 09:43:45 PM »
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  • The Lord be praised!  I had not heard this.  Thank you.

    Ah, my bad.  That was St. Francis of Paola, not of Assisi.  But St. Francis of Assisi was known to preach to animals and he also liberated a few from slaughter.

    https://saintoftheday.com/st-francis-of-paola/
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    [St. Francis of Paola] is also reported to be compassionate towards animals and would occasionally give back life to animals that would have been killed to be eaten. He at one point raised his pet lamb from the dead after it was killed for consumption. What is more fascinating is that the lamb had been eaten already and he just went to the fire furnace where the fleece and bones had been thrown and he called the pet’s name. The lamb then came out of the fire untouched.

    At one point one of the friars got a fish from the pond and had already prepared it and was now in the frying pan when St Francis noticed that it was missing. He sent someone to go and get the fish and the friar threw the fish on the ground breaking it into pieces. St Francis took the pieces and threw them into the water, prayed and the fish was restored back to life.

    Even after the death of animals, he continued to call them by their names as he believed that they continued to exist even after their death.

    That last sentence is interesting if true.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #19 on: May 10, 2023, 10:02:02 PM »
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    [St. Francis of Paola] is also reported to be compassionate towards animals and would occasionally give back life to animals that would have been killed to be eaten. He at one point raised his pet lamb from the dead after it was killed for consumption. What is more fascinating is that the lamb had been eaten already and he just went to the fire furnace where the fleece and bones had been thrown and he called the pet’s name. The lamb then came out of the fire untouched.

    At one point one of the friars got a fish from the pond and had already prepared it and was now in the frying pan when St Francis noticed that it was missing. He sent someone to go and get the fish and the friar threw the fish on the ground breaking it into pieces. St Francis took the pieces and threw them into the water, prayed and the fish was restored back to life.

    Even after the death of animals, he continued to call them by their names as he believed that they continued to exist even after their death.
    Thank you!  Great stories.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #20 on: May 10, 2023, 10:03:09 PM »
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  • Thank you!  Great stories.

    Apparently these stories come from a book from TAN that's unfortunately no longer in print, the asking price for which is about $36 used.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #21 on: May 11, 2023, 05:24:07 AM »
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  • Well I know one bird that certainly is in heaven, a white dove.

    Offline hansel

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #22 on: May 11, 2023, 06:40:57 AM »
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  • That last sentence is interesting if true.
    Very interesting and curious indeed. If St. Francis of Paola was in fact calling animals by name after death as he "believed they continued to exist after death", it seems to suggest that some kind of soul-like or "sentient" element of the animal was not destroyed during death. If this is indeed the true meaning in the story, it appears to run completely contrary to the Thomistic perspective of non-rational animal souls being destroyed at death. And it would seem to pose a number of dilemmas. For example, if the animals "continue to exist after death", where are they, and where do they go after they die? It would be very interesting to look a that TAN book to see where they got that story from, and then look at the primary resource.

    It's one thing for God to restore a "destroyed" non-rational animal soul to bring it back as a saint's miracle or after the end of the world as the "renewal" of the earth. (After all, zoological diversity gives glory to Him). However, the concept of an immaterial "soul" or "existence" separating from the non-rational animal's body, existing independently of it, and then being reintroduced into it seems strange. Perhaps these questions are further linked to the true nature of the animal soul, and whether it is in fact a completely material entity, or has some immaterial element as has been suggested.



    Offline rum

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #23 on: May 11, 2023, 06:53:02 AM »
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  • Fathers and theologians say that the order in the animal kingdom also broke down with Original Sin.

    But, yeah, lots of dogs will eat not only their own feces but also the feces of other animals.
    Thanks Ladislaus, I do remember reading that but got lost in the cavern of my mind. God allows abnormal things to exist, but He never wants the abnormal to be dominant. Jews strike me as the alpha and omega of abnormalness.
    Some would have people believe that I'm a deceiver because I've used various handles on different Catholic forums. They only know this because I've always offered such information, unprompted. Various troll accounts on FE. Ben on SuscipeDomine. Patches on ABLF 1.0 and TeDeum. GuitarPlucker, Busillis, HatchC, and Rum on Cathinfo.

    Online Seraphina

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #24 on: May 11, 2023, 07:38:47 AM »
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  • I'm not convinced that the animal soul is material.  Immaterial doesn't necessarily mean immortal.
    Yes, It’s a possibility, I think.  I should have specified immaterial from immortal.  I can’t help but wish to see the donkey upon which Christ rode, or Balaam’s talking ass!  

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #25 on: May 11, 2023, 11:20:55 AM »
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  • I'm not convinced that the animal soul is material.  Immaterial doesn't necessarily mean immortal.

    St. Thomas is clear on the point. 

    Can you give an example of some real being that is both immaterial and mortal? 

    I thought it was incontrovertibly certain that there are only three categories of immaterial being: God: Angels: Man:

    Is there a fourth category of which I am unaware? 

    Material being is composite, not simple. Yet it is by no means perfectly comprehensible by the unaided human intellect. The ultimate knowledge of the material composition of real beings has eluded man from the beginning. True science exists to reduce some of what is mysterious to certain knowledge; but all of us who are aware of the fraud we call scientism, understand that man has not even skimmed the surface of the possible knowledge of the realities of nature.

    Aware we are, also, that demons often deceive men, by giving them "secrets of nature," that are no such thing. Demons teach men how to poison things, certainly. But they do not teach wisdom, either speculative or empirical. By this late hour, the so-called field of speculative physics is no more than a stagnant mire of perverse human illusions. 

    Light is material. Electromagnetic waves are material. The aether is material. The complexities of material composition far exceed any ability we have to apprehend essences. God is the Author of material being. A poor show He would make of His majesty, if we could easily penetrate the secrets of His creative power. 

    Animals are magnificent and wonderful creatures; and their being entirely material does not take away from that.  


    Offline Simeon

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #26 on: May 11, 2023, 11:33:29 AM »
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  • Even after the death of animals, he continued to call them by their names as he believed that they continued to exist even after their death.

    I recently had to put my beloved cat down. I think now all the time of his having gone completely out of existence, due to his radical materiality. But I also say to myself that he has not completely passed from existence; for he continues to dwell in my mind. In that way, he certainly does participate immortality.

    To keep that memory fresh, I had some pictures made and hung them around the house. I still talk to him and try to enjoy his presence in my mind; for he was a sweet and loving beast, and a mighty good companion. I wonder often if the Lord will remake him for me in eternity. I feel almost certain that when He says He is going to make all things new, He is going to include beautiful plants and animals. For in Heaven we will still possess our material/rational nature; and that nature will still be ordered to all of its proper objects. 

    In Heaven, perhaps, we shall contemplate not only the Essence of God, but all the mysterious of His glorious creation.  

    Offline WhiteWorkinClassScapegoat

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #27 on: May 12, 2023, 08:29:24 AM »
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  • I wonder often if the Lord will remake him for me in eternity. I feel almost certain that when He says He is going to make all things new, He is going to include beautiful plants and animals. For in Heaven we will still possess our material/rational nature; and that nature will still be ordered to all of its proper objects.

    In Heaven, perhaps, we shall contemplate not only the Essence of God, but all the mysterious of His glorious creation. 

    Hello, Simeon. 

    Is not Isaias 11:6-10 a glimpse into Heaven on earth being manifested by animals along with saved people, after Our Lord returns, destroys His enemies and Antichrist, and judges the living and the dead? Why wouldn't animals be in Heaven now? Why would God allow any of His creation to go to waste for eternity except souls who willfully separate themselves from Him?  
    Dan shall be a serpent in the way, a viper by the path, that bites the horse's heels so his rider falls backward. ~ Genesis 49:17

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    Offline cassini

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #28 on: May 12, 2023, 12:08:29 PM »
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  • I recently had to put my beloved cat down. I think now all the time of his having gone completely out of existence, due to his radical materiality. But I also say to myself that he has not completely passed from existence; for he continues to dwell in my mind. In that way, he certainly does participate immortality.

    To keep that memory fresh, I had some pictures made and hung them around the house. I still talk to him and try to enjoy his presence in my mind; for he was a sweet and loving beast, and a mighty good companion. I wonder often if the Lord will remake him for me in eternity. I feel almost certain that when He says He is going to make all things new, He is going to include beautiful plants and animals. For in Heaven we will still possess our material/rational nature; and that nature will still be ordered to all of its proper objects.

    In Heaven, perhaps, we shall contemplate not only the Essence of God, but all the mysterious of His glorious creation. 

    I too have photos of deceased cats who were a joy to have in the family. When I was a kid I loved to walk past this house that had a beloved dog's grave and gravestone in its garden. Cannot remember if it had a cross on it.

    I just thought of another hope that loved anímals might be recreated as a reward for those in heaven. Didn't the Lord save them from the Flood with Noah and his family?

    https://twitter.com/NikoTheAwakened/status/1656561247423279109

    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #29 on: May 12, 2023, 04:12:09 PM »
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  • Imagine the story of the Cure of Ars, where he denied himself even the simple pleasure of looking upon the new technology of the railroad.  Or imagine some cloistered nun in France, who never got to see the Eiffel Tower (due to her penance of joining the monastery).  Wouldn't God make it possible for such saints to experience such worldly pleasures in eternity, after they gave up such for the Glory of God?  Surely, God would make such possible.

    Even the idea of visiting a certain period in time...i.e. to see how the pyramids were built, to see the famous battles of christianity, to see Charlemagne crowned king...such matters are human concerns, but they do provide some human pleasure, and how would God, the author of Time itself, not provide that to those that are faithful to Him
    In eternity I don't think we're going to be interested in anything that man constructed or did in time and don't think any of it will have survived.
    I do hope three of my dogs will make it though.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]