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Author Topic: The theology of animals  (Read 3230 times)

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Offline cassini

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The theology of animals
« on: May 09, 2023, 03:20:45 PM »
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  • When reading the following:
    'That way, using 'theistic-evolution,' all the scientific absurdities of an evolved creation over 13.5 billion years can be overcome for Catholics by way of God’s endless miracles, turning that Big Bang dust into cosmic bodies and Earth; then creating evolving living cells for flora and fauna, and eventually, turning sponges into elephants, and for some, the probability of Adam’s body from an ape. The only protected dogma was God’s infusing humans with their souls,' I had a profound thought.

    In other words, it is the soul that gives the body life. We know that. But what about the 'life souls' of animals. When they die, their 'life' also ceases, just like human beings. Now if we propose that the mother of animals provides 'life' for their young, couldn't this thought be used against the dogma of the human soul. So, the question is, does God also provide 'souls' for all other creatures according to their kinds, non-immortal souls to give life until death. I have never read any comment on this important subject. Is there a theology on this subject? Did St Thomas address it. What do you think?

    Offline hansel

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #1 on: May 09, 2023, 04:05:47 PM »
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  • From what I understand, in the Thomistic school of thought "non-rational" animals (as in dog, cat, fish etc.) DO have souls. However, this soul is likewise "non-rational".  Animals have "sensitive" souls, in that they respond to sensory stimuli. For example, an animal may act according to instinct or conditioned/learned behaviors. etc. But unlike man, the non-rational animal cannot reflect upon itself why it made those choices, make moral judgements, be culpable for sinful actions etc. It does not have the intellectual component present in the soul of man.

    Unlike the soul of man, the soul of a non-rational animal is not immortal. Upon death, the non-rational soul is essentially perishes, and does not progress into any form of afterlife. Hence why Fido doesn't go to Heaven...

    Man, on the other hand, has a rational soul. He is capable of reason, judgement between right and wrong actions, and his soul is immortal. At death, the rational soul is separated from the body, but unlike the non-rational soul, it progresses to it's judgement, ultimately ending up in Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory.

    Therefore, the death of a rational animal vs a non rational animal are in effect two very different events. The non-rational "soul" that comes into existence at the conception of a puppy is likewise very different than that which comes into being at the conception of a human.


    Offline Simeon

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    Offline hansel

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #3 on: May 09, 2023, 07:40:06 PM »
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  • Relevant portions of the Summa:
    This is great, thank you Simeon!

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #4 on: May 10, 2023, 04:13:50 AM »
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  • I’m quite sure my 🐩, 🐕, and 🐈 have souls, they’re just not immortal souls because they aren’t made in God’s image and are lower than humans.  
    Haven’t readers ever seen their pets look “guilty,” only to discover they’ve done something naughty while nobody was looking?  They can also show compassion, anger, happiness, etc.  


    Offline cassini

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #5 on: May 10, 2023, 04:26:26 AM »
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  • Excellent question by Cassini. Excellent response by Hansel.

    Relevant portions of the Summa:

    https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1078.htm

    https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1072.htm

    https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1076.htm

    https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1079.htm

    https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1081.htm
     
    Wow, St Thomas had a lot of theology on the soul.
    However, the main question I asked has not been addressed.
    Maybe it is somewhere in St Thomas's lists.
    God creates an 'immortal soul' for every human conceived, yes?
    So, does God create the 'animal soul' for every kind of fauna conceived?

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #6 on: May 10, 2023, 04:36:36 AM »
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  • I was on a retreat many years ago in which Bp., then Fr. Zendejas said that animals have souls, only they die when the animal dies.  I think he possibly said that even plants have something resembling a soul.  

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #7 on: May 10, 2023, 04:54:28 AM »
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  • Do Animals go to Heaven?

    Interesting and thought-provoking article.



    I used to think the surest view was that animals were like robots, but miracles involving animals seem to discount that view. 


    Offline cassini

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #8 on: May 10, 2023, 05:01:06 AM »
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  • I was on a retreat many years ago in which Bp., then Fr. Zendejas said that animals have souls, only they die when the animal dies.  I think he possibly said that even plants have something resembling a soul. 

    I remember as a boy asking my priest teacher if cruelty to animals is a sin. He wasn't expecting such a question. He pondered and replied, 'Yes, deliberate cruelty is a sin as we humans understand it. But killing animals humanly is not.'  

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #9 on: May 10, 2023, 05:29:57 AM »
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  • I’m quite sure my 🐩, 🐕, and 🐈 have souls, they’re just not immortal souls because they aren’t made in God’s image and are lower than humans. 
    Haven’t readers ever seen their pets look “guilty,” only to discover they’ve done something naughty while nobody was looking?  They can also show compassion, anger, happiness, etc. 

    As others have pointed out, they have a different KIND of soul than what human beings, and it's not just a question of their souls being mortal.  Human beings also have that same kind of a "animal soul" (as it's known), and this changes the nature of their "guilt" and "compassion" and "happiness".  I actually believe that God will probably have some animals in Heaven, and might even raise back to life some of the animals that human beings were close to in life.  There's certainly nothing preventing Him for doing so anyway.  God created animals in the first place because they represented some aspect of the perfection of His creation, and so the reconstituted earth presumably would not be lacking whatever prefection of creation they represented.

    Offline rum

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #10 on: May 10, 2023, 05:44:59 AM »
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  • There's a certain kind of small dog, a type of poodle, that eats its own feces. Could it be that God doesn't only allow humans to make perverse choices, but animals as well?
    Some would have people believe that I'm a deceiver because I've used various handles on different Catholic forums. They only know this because I've always offered such information, unprompted. Various troll accounts on FE. Ben on SuscipeDomine. Patches on ABLF 1.0 and TeDeum. GuitarPlucker, Busillis, HatchC, and Rum on Cathinfo.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #11 on: May 10, 2023, 08:47:09 AM »
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  • There's a certain kind of small dog, a type of poodle, that eats its own feces. Could it be that God doesn't only allow humans to make perverse choices, but animals as well?

    Fathers and theologians say that the order in the animal kingdom also broke down with Original Sin.

    But, yeah, lots of dogs will eat not only their own feces but also the feces of other animals.

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #12 on: May 10, 2023, 11:02:13 AM »
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  • Wow, St Thomas had a lot of theology on the soul.
    However, the main question I asked has not been addressed.
    Maybe it is somewhere in St Thomas's lists.
    God creates an 'immortal soul' for every human conceived, yes?
    So, does God create the 'animal soul' for every kind of fauna conceived?

    Please someone correct me if this is wrong, but my understanding is as follows:

    The offspringing of plants and animals belongs entirely to the order of generation, or providence, as some call it. The souls of animals and plants are entirely material. Hence they are not immortal. Hence their parents possess the entire potency necessary to actuate the substantial form in the offspring. God does not directly infuse their souls into new plants and animals.

    Mankind constitutes to a class entirely unique. We most certainly participate the order of generation, our parents possessing the entire potency needed to generate our bodies - material intellective powers and emotions, inclusive. But they have no potency whatsoever to engender the immortal souls of their children; for such are entirely immaterial, spiritual, immortal. Only God can create, ex nihilo, intellectual substances (angels) and immortal human souls.

    At every human conception, God creates, out of nothing, the soul of the person conceived, and infuses that soul into the corporeal body. I think that theologians have discussed the exact moment in time when the soul is infused. The operative principle is that the matter is capable of receiving the form when it is properly disposed. St. Thomas, I believe, held that the human soul was infused some time after conception. Many others believe the infusion takes place at conception. What we do know for certain is that, no matter what stage of the pregnancy, it is a most grave mortal sin to try to induce abortion by any known means.

    What is most wonderful to my mind, is the consideration that, though the work of Creation formally ended on the Seventh Day, when God rested; and though for all time ensuing the creature participates the order of generation or providence; nevertheless God has not stopped creating, ex nihilo, with regard to men. Each man is properly called a new creation, and participates both the orders of creation and generation. This alone puts the earth at the center of the universe; for the earth was created for man. Man is the center of the creation, and his dwelling the center of the universe.

    Such considerations bring home the sheer vileness and malignancy of evolution, including theistic evolution.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #13 on: May 10, 2023, 04:32:46 PM »
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  • Please someone correct me if this is wrong, but my understanding is as follows:

    The offspringing of plants and animals belongs entirely to the order of generation, or providence, as some call it. The souls of animals and plants are entirely material. Hence they are not immortal. Hence their parents possess the entire potency necessary to actuate the substantial form in the offspring. God does not directly infuse their souls into new plants and animals.

    Mankind constitutes to a class entirely unique. We most certainly participate the order of generation, our parents possessing the entire potency needed to generate our bodies - material intellective powers and emotions, inclusive. But they have no potency whatsoever to engender the immortal souls of their children; for such are entirely immaterial, spiritual, immortal. Only God can create, ex nihilo, intellectual substances (angels) and immortal human souls.

    At every human conception, God creates, out of nothing, the soul of the person conceived, and infuses that soul into the corporeal body. I think that theologians have discussed the exact moment in time when the soul is infused. The operative principle is that the matter is capable of receiving the form when it is properly disposed. St. Thomas, I believe, held that the human soul was infused some time after conception. Many others believe the infusion takes place at conception. What we do know for certain is that, no matter what stage of the pregnancy, it is a most grave mortal sin to try to induce abortion by any known means.

    What is most wonderful to my mind, is the consideration that, though the work of Creation formally ended on the Seventh Day, when God rested; and though for all time ensuing the creature participates the order of generation or providence; nevertheless God has not stopped creating, ex nihilo, with regard to men. Each man is properly called a new creation, and participates both the orders of creation and generation. This alone puts the earth at the center of the universe; for the earth was created for man. Man is the center of the creation, and his dwelling the center of the universe.

    Such considerations bring home the sheer vileness and malignancy of evolution, including theistic evolution.

    That answers my question Simeon. Many thanks. I never heard it explained that way. A lesson for us all.

    No doubt the atheist believes the human soul is also 'entirely material and parents possess the entire potency necessary to actuate the substantial form in their offspring.'

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The theology of animals
    « Reply #14 on: May 10, 2023, 05:31:43 PM »
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  • I'm not convinced that the animal soul is material.  Immaterial doesn't necessarily mean immortal.