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Author Topic: The Papal Condemnation of Dances, 1916  (Read 3471 times)

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Offline Charity

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The Papal Condemnation of Dances, 1916
« on: October 04, 2022, 12:23:42 PM »
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  • Offline Charity

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    Re: The Papal Condemnation of Dances, 1916
    « Reply #1 on: October 04, 2022, 04:30:40 PM »
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  • https://www.stjoanarc.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Becoming-a-Saint-and-Dancing-11-1-15.pdf

    Becoming a Saint and Dancing

    Page 1 of 3
    On May 13, 1917, during the first apparition of Our Lady at Fatima, in some of the first
    words that were exchanged between Our Lady and Lucia, Lucia asked her about a girl who had died
    recently. This girl used to go to Lucia’s house to learn weaving from Lucia’s sister Maria. Lucia
    asked, “Is Maria de Neves now in heaven?” Our Lady replied, “Yes, she is.”

    Today we are celebrating the feast of All Saints, all those like that friend of Lucia dos Santos
    at Fatima, who are in heaven, though we don’t know who they are. This is what we are all called
    to become is saints. God gives sufficient grace for every soul to make it to heaven, and to the level
    of sanctity that He has called each soul. One of the greatest deterrents for us becoming holy that is
    neglected is not avoiding the occasions of sins. St. Bernardine of Sienna says that of all counsels, the best
    of all counsels is the counsel of avoiding the occasions of sin, even calling it the foundation of religion.
    Just before the first apparition of Our Lady at Fatima, the parish priest of Fatima gave a
    sermon at which the three children were present, in which the parish priest addressed a pastime that
    had become popular. He gave a sermon condemning dancing in public and little Jacinta Marto was
    disappointed because she had loved to dance. But then Our Lady appeared to the children. And
    after the visions began, all three children gave up dancing, realizing that this led to occasions of sin.
    Now, what is the moral issue here? First off, married couples dancing with their own spouses
    is not a moral issue for married couples this is perfectly fine. Irish step-dancing is not a moral issue.
    However, what about unmarried young men and women dancing together?

    To understand this question, let’s keep in mind that a
    mortal sin against purity can be
    committed right in one’s mind. We’re not necessarily going to see external sins committed on the
    dance floor at a well-chaperoned swing dance. But can we say the same of interior sins?
    So fathers, imagine what you think if you came outside after Mass and saw a teenager with
    his hands on your daughter in all the places he would have to have them for a swing dance? In
    other words, if you were to see him holding your daughter’s hands, sliding his hand along her arm,
    pulling her towards him, and pushing her away, supporting her by the back as she leans back in a
    dip. His hands in her hands, his hand on her back. Would you have any problems with a teenager
    having his hands on your daughter like that? I don’t even like describing all that, but that just
    describes a swing dance. If you saw a teenager holding your daughter as we’ve just described, can
    you say you know he won’t be tempted with impure thoughts and desires? What makes a teen
    touching your daughter like that any less an occasion for temptation, simply because at a dance this
    takes place where it is darker, there are a bunch of teens doing it and there is music? What do you
    think all that bodily contact in dancing that the boy is not used to disposes him towards?
    Parents, are you over 25 years old? Then physiologically your teenager has stronger drives
    than you do in this area; statistically up to 50% more more drive means more temptation. So
    parents, consider that internally your teens have more temptation in this area, less experience in how to
    handle it, less used to this kind of contact, less maturity and less understanding of the serious consequences
    of giving in. In other words, the very ones who will be most tempted and most likely to succuмb by
    an occasion of sin in this area are teenagers and we want them having all this contact? Parents, do
    we have perfect self-control? Can you see the imprudence of putting one’s more-tempted teens into
    these situations? Adults have done more and seen more than teens, perhaps. Things that would put
    a teen into a very near-occasion of sin might not even phase an adult anymore
    Once, a Catholic mother who favored dances tried to explain to me why I shouldn’t oppose
    dances. This was her reason: she said, “Dancing breaks down the physical barriers between young
    men and women without involving the marital act.” She knew what dances do they do break down

    Becoming a Saint and Dancing
    Page 2 of 3
    those physical barriers. Let me ask: with society trying with all its might to make
    sure there are no
    physical barriers left between boys and girls, is it a good idea to help that process in any way? Just
    because there are many things in society that are more immodest than dancing, and that lead to
    impurity, that doesn’t mean that unmarried boys and girls dancing together isn’t immodest and won’t
    lead to impurity. The danger of sins of impurity that take place later is one of the biggest dangers in
    dancing. If one thinks it won’t lead to temptations toward private sins, then one is very naïve.
    How many of our teenagers are ready to get married? If they are not in a position to get
    married, then what are we doing putting them in positions where they will get swept off their feet
    emotionally? This is what dancing does to girls.
    One might be tempted to say, “Father, that is
    your take on it. The reality is that my
    opinion doesn’t matter.
    Does the
    Church have an official position on dances? Believe it or not, the Church
    does have an official position on dances. Traditional Catholics praise the Baltimore Catechism. Are
    you aware that the First 3 Councils of Baltimore and the 10th Baltimore Council the same
    Baltimore Councils that gave us the Baltimore Catechism all denounced dances? The Second
    Council of Baltimore (1868) says: “We consider it to be our duty to warn our people against those
    amusements which may easily become to them an occasion of sin, and especially against those
    fashionable dances, which... are fraught with the greatest dangers to morals.” Do you know what
    ‘those fashionable dances’ were? Fast waltzes...
    The Vatican even weighed in on this, addressing America by name because dancing was
    so widespread here. On March 31, 1916 a decree of the Vatican (the Sacred Consistorial
    Congregation, with the approval of Benedict XV), decreed as follows:
    “In the century just passed, in the states of North America, the custom began whereby Catholic
    families would gather at dances... The reason and justification for this was given that Catholics might
    get to know each other and be united more intimately in the bonds of charity and love, and at the
    same time they would serve as a fundraiser for some pious works.” The decree went on to say that
    all priests... and other clerics are absolutely forbidden from promoting and supporting dances,
    even if they are
    held to aid pious works or for some other holy purpose. Moreover, all clerics are forbidden to
    attend such dances, should they be given by lay people. A.A.S., 8 (1916), p. 147-149
    (http://www.vatican.va/archive/aas/docuмents/AAS%2008%20[1916]%20-%20ocr.pdf) You can find this decree
    on the Vatican’s website today.
    A year after this decree came out, an American bishop asked the Vatican: "Are dances given
    in the daytime, or at night but
    not protracted to a late hour... but conducted in the manner
    commonly called a picnic, included in the condemnation of March 31, 1916?" The reply, dated
    December 10, 1917, and approved by the Pope himself, stated that yes, dances done during the
    daytime or at a picnic are indeed included in the Vatican’s prohibition. [AAS, X (1918), 17
    (http://www.vatican.va/archive/aas/docuмents/AAS%2010%20[1918]%20-%20ocr.pdf)].
    In a New York Times article dated June 16, 1916, which is in this week’s bulletin, the
    headline reads, “Pope’s Dancing Ban Sent to Churches. The article opens, “Dancing has been
    forbidden at all Catholic entertainments.” The Cardinal of New York, Cardinal Farley had the
    priests of his diocese read the letter you’ll find in the bulletin from the pulpit, in which he said, it is
    “imperative for us to offset the moral danger that threatens our young people and to
    positively
    prohibit the holding of entertainments of any kind whose principal feature is dancing.”

    Becoming a Saint and Dancing
    Page 3 of 3
    Traditional Catholics wish the Cardinal of New York today would have greater courage and clarity.
    Why would we not follow when a former Cardinal shows courage and clarity about this moral issue?
    Now I might lose a parishioner or two over this but I’ll be quite honest with you: I would
    rather lose a couple of parishioners than lose the souls that I will be held accountable for (Heb
    13:17). The teens of the parish are my spiritual children. One mortal sin that is all it takes to lose
    a soul. Now, I may not convince all of you, but I would like us to reflect on these words:
    Ezechiel 33:8-9 I have made thee a watchman to the house of Israel... if thou dost
    not speak to
    warn [him]: that man shall die in his iniquity, but I will require his blood at thy hand. But if thou tell
    [him], that he may be converted from his ways, and he be
    not converted from his way: he shall die
    in his iniquity: but thou hast delivered thy soul.” I have given the warning. I pray that it be received.
    I began by speaking about Our Lady appeared at Fatima, and how Lucia asked her about a
    girl who had died recently, if she was in heaven, and Our Lady replied, “Yes, she is.”
    Then Lucia asked about another other girl who had also taken weaving lessons from her sister
    and had also recently died. “And Amelia?” Lucia asked. Our Lady replied, “She will be in purgatory
    until the end of the world.” I don’t know about you, but I want to make sure that my plans after
    death don’t include a whole lot of flames. It was not in the children’s plans either. All three
    children gave up dancing after the visions began, realizing that it was an occasion of sin.
    Let’s close with one last story. Ars, France once had a problem with impurity and
    paganism. By targeting vice & esp. dances, St. John Vianney got at the
    root of the impurity. And
    after putting an end to the dances in his parish St. John was able to boast once, proud of his
    parishioners as he showed a visitor to Ars the Catholic cemetery here is my collection of relics!”
    We are all called to become saints this is what I wish for you! that one day the Feast of All
    Saints will one day be
    your feast day also!



    Online Yeti

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    Re: The Papal Condemnation of Dances, 1916
    « Reply #2 on: October 04, 2022, 06:14:01 PM »
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  • Great article! I didn't know this.

    The image on that video is not from 1916, though, to judge from the clothing. It looks more like the 40s or 50s. But you see how things get worse and worse if they are not corrected. Now we are in a free fall. :(

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: The Papal Condemnation of Dances, 1916
    « Reply #3 on: October 04, 2022, 06:32:17 PM »
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  • This reminds me of one of the parishioners at my chapel one Sunday morning telling me how one of the younger kids was hosting a barn dance that same evening, as an invitation. I don't think a lot of trads realize that the Church is not about this practice, especially on Sundays. It even mentions dancing in the examination of conscience section of the 1962 Missal as a "profanation of the Holy Day".

    Thanks for sharing
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline CoffeeEveryDay

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    Re: The Papal Condemnation of Dances, 1916
    « Reply #4 on: October 05, 2022, 09:38:01 AM »
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  • Including at weddings. How sad that a couple who receive the Holy Sacrament go to profane dancing after. 
    We must secure an existence for our people and a future for white children.


    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: The Papal Condemnation of Dances, 1916
    « Reply #5 on: October 05, 2022, 01:43:21 PM »
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  • This is reminiscent of the thread on “rock” and “pop” music.  Let common and Catholic sense reign.  Just as there are acceptable tunes in a very broad category, the same applies to the broad category of dancing.  There’s a huge difference between dancing the Macarena, folk dancing, square dancing——-and twerking, pole dancing, and giving a lap dance!  

    I was once condemned by a “pious” woman for doing the Macarena at a family-friendly neighborhood block party.  She cited St. John Vianney as proof I’d committed a serious mortal  sin.  :facepalm:  

    Now, if I’d been clad in Daisy Dukes, pasties, and shiny red six inch high heels, twerking on top of the bar surrounded by salivating men…totally different!  


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: The Papal Condemnation of Dances, 1916
    « Reply #6 on: October 05, 2022, 02:35:14 PM »
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  • This is reminiscent of the thread on “rock” and “pop” music.  Let common and Catholic sense reign.  Just as there are acceptable tunes in a very broad category, the same applies to the broad category of dancing.  There’s a huge difference between dancing the Macarena, folk dancing, square dancing——-and twerking, pole dancing, and giving a lap dance! 

    I was once condemned by a “pious” woman for doing the Macarena at a family-friendly neighborhood block party.  She cited St. John Vianney as proof I’d committed a serious mortal  sin.  :facepalm: 

    Now, if I’d been clad in Daisy Dukes, pasties, and shiny red six inch high heels, twerking on top of the bar surrounded by salivating men…totally different! 

    Not to nitpick, but what is an example of a mortal sin that would not be "serious"?

    Not directing this towards you, but in the past 40+ years, there's been a lot of confusion about "serious" sin, "grave" sin, and "mortal" sin.  I'd really like to see sins that cause the loss of the state of grace be referred to as "mortal sins" and in no other way.  I saw it coming a long time ago that the long game of the Newchurchers is to create a new category of "grave but not mortal" sin, giving license to contraceptors, fornicators, invalidly "marrieds", self-pleasurers, and even active ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs to be able to feel like they have not lost their salvation and may receive communion as "medicine for the sick", to create a safe space of "more than venial, but not mortal".  That way they can live in such a state without fearing hell on account of it.  Am I right?

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: The Papal Condemnation of Dances, 1916
    « Reply #7 on: October 05, 2022, 03:55:06 PM »
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  • This is reminiscent of the thread on “rock” and “pop” music.  Let common and Catholic sense reign.  Just as there are acceptable tunes in a very broad category, the same applies to the broad category of dancing.  There’s a huge difference between dancing the Macarena, folk dancing, square dancing——-and twerking, pole dancing, and giving a lap dance! 

    I was once condemned by a “pious” woman for doing the Macarena at a family-friendly neighborhood block party.  She cited St. John Vianney as proof I’d committed a serious mortal  sin.  :facepalm: 

    Now, if I’d been clad in Daisy Dukes, pasties, and shiny red six inch high heels, twerking on top of the bar surrounded by salivating men…totally different! 
    That makes sense, I agree. To clarify, my anecdote was merely to illustrate the complete blindness that some have to traditional Catholic practices. There's a specific time, such as having a dance on a Sunday, which was clearly laid out as a sinful profanation of the Holy day even in the John XXIII 1962 Missal. Yet, that doesn't mean all dancing whatsoever is forbidden. There's a reason Protestants have historically condemned Catholics for loose morals (while also saying we have strict morals, go figure); and that's because we are able to partake in recreation and fun (gasp!) in moderation.

    I remember making the same mistake when I heard the story of St. John Vianney, only to realize later that it was a serious problem among lax Catholics in his flock, therefore necessitating a rebuke to them; not a condemnation of all such activities.

    I'm noticing this trend all around due to the hedonism of our times. Where there is a strict adherence to the letter of the Law rather than the spirit of the Law among both Conservative NO's (such as Meaning of Catholic here) and traditionalist Catholics. The sensus catholicus is lacking in favor of almost superstition and scruples regarding anything that is of the world (or attributed to demons, given the recent Ripperger threads).
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: The Papal Condemnation of Dances, 1916
    « Reply #8 on: October 05, 2022, 04:01:53 PM »
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  • It reminds me of those Catholics who will point to the Protestant-made "satanic panic" videos on rock music or other subjects as if they were inherently evil in themselves (impossible, given all things that exist are good to some degree), rather than being used as a tool by the powers of evil.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Online Yeti

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    Re: The Papal Condemnation of Dances, 1916
    « Reply #9 on: October 05, 2022, 11:58:55 PM »
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  • This is reminiscent of the thread on “rock” and “pop” music.  Let common and Catholic sense reign.  Just as there are acceptable tunes in a very broad category, the same applies to the broad category of dancing.  There’s a huge difference between dancing the Macarena, folk dancing, square dancing——-and twerking, pole dancing, and giving a lap dance! 

    I was once condemned by a “pious” woman for doing the Macarena at a family-friendly neighborhood block party.  She cited St. John Vianney as proof I’d committed a serious mortal  sin.  :facepalm: 

    Now, if I’d been clad in Daisy Dukes, pasties, and shiny red six inch high heels, twerking on top of the bar surrounded by salivating men…totally different! 
    .

    I find the article convincing. Read the second post in this thread, which explains the problems with dancing at great length. Could you tell us what exactly in there you don't agree with?

    This is not at all the same as protestants saying that all rock music will lead people to hell. This is talking about something that provokes sins of the flesh. Need anyone say more?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Papal Condemnation of Dances, 1916
    « Reply #10 on: October 06, 2022, 12:53:15 AM »
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  • So, the focus here is on the interactions between boys/girls or men/women.

    Would a dance where just one gender participated be sinful?

    To me, that's what I think of as INHERENTLY sinful, if it would be sinful regardless of extraneous circuмstances.

    Then, does this criterion extend to certain types of dances that would be with mixed gender and yet are so designed as to incite very little tedency to impurity?

    Of course, there are others today that are probably little more than fornication with clothes on.

    I imagine that there's a gradation of sinfulness here, and at what point (with what type of dance) does it cross over into grave sin?  Or, even, at what point does it cross over into even venial sin?

    Another aspect might be subjective.  If young teens are dancing, with their raging hormones, probably a much greater occasion of sin than if a some octogenarians were dancing, etc.

    So there's a very subtle blend of subjective considerations here.

    And even when dancing alone, a woman could make herself a temptation, and yet part of that might be due to her attractiveness and her grace/athleticism, where a less attractive woman who's out of shape migth cause no occasion of sin.

    Apart from the aspect of sin, I for one by nature despise dancing.  It's completely contrary to my temperament.  I consider it undignified, in any form ... even if it were some "high-class" ballroom dance.  I find it to be incompatible with holiness.

    So, could you imagine either Our Lord or Our Blessed Mother dancing ... even if it were in the most modest manner possible and not in mixed company?  To me it speaks to a certain frivolity, and the motions of the body seem to draw one's mind and nature down toward the carnal, the animal, and the material world.  That might be just me, and this doesn't speak to sin, but I personally detest dancing.  I only ever danced once in my entire life.  I tried for about 2-3 minutes, found it to be so incredibly awkward and undignified (not just because I wasn't particularly good at it) ... and then immediately left the dance feeling as though I had degraded myself, and never danced again (I was about 18 in my first year of college).  It's not that I'm particularly uncoordinnated, as I was a pretty strong athlete in the day with good coordination, balance, and strength.  It was just the gyrations and movements that I somehow found degrading and undignified ... I don't know, somehow animalistic.


    Offline Sefa

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    Re: The Papal Condemnation of Dances, 1916
    « Reply #11 on: October 06, 2022, 03:06:24 AM »
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  • Until someone actually cites the papal teaching to show the actual nuance about what type of dancing, this discussion is mere navel gazing.

    Broad condemnation of all dance is a puritan innovation and condemns catholic tradition and saints.

    And when the ark of the Lord was come into the city of David, Michol the daughter of Saul, looking out through a window, saw king David leaping and dancing before the Lord: and she despised him in her heart.

    Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, the young men and old men together: and I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them joyful after their sorrow.

    So Mary the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand: and all the women went forth after her with timbrels and with dances:

    (Christ's parable of the prodigal son) Because this my son was dead, and is come to life again: was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry. [25] Now his elder son was in the field, and when he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard music and dancing:

    (Christ:) But whereunto shall I esteem this generation to be like? It is like to children sitting in the market place. [17] Who crying to their companions say: We have piped to you, and you have not danced: we have lamented, and you have not mourned. [18] For John came neither eating nor drinking; and they say: He hath a devil. [19] The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say: Behold a man that is a glutton and a wine drinker, a friend of publicans and sinners. And wisdom is justified by her children.

    And I will build thee again, and thou shalt be built, 0 virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy timbrels, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.

    Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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    Re: The Papal Condemnation of Dances, 1916
    « Reply #12 on: October 06, 2022, 06:22:02 AM »
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  • I would like ti bring this discussion down to earth.

    Is there any dance you can think of that might not be sinful?
    You probably can't name one.
    Is anyone dancing that today?
    No.

    So when someone asks you is dancing sinful you say: almost every dance is sinful.

    We are talking of course about mixed dances which are basically all dances.

    If  you want to lean left and right in your room and call that a dance nobody is talking about that.

    Offline Sefa

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    Re: The Papal Condemnation of Dances, 1916
    « Reply #13 on: October 06, 2022, 06:46:44 AM »
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  • I would like ti bring this discussion down to earth.

    Is there any dance you can think of that might not be sinful?
    You probably can't name one.
    Is anyone dancing that today?
    No.

    So when someone asks you is dancing sinful you say: almost every dance is sinful.

    We are talking of course about mixed dances which are basically all dances.

    If  you want to lean left and right in your room and call that a dance nobody is talking about that.
    The ones i just mentioned in the bible quotes.

    Furthermore, there is no dance that is sinful. This is a form of gnosticism to say so for it conflates concupiscence with the object. Its akin to saying sex is a sin, or beauty is a sin or women are a sin for they can all lead to concupiscence.

    Online Yeti

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    Re: The Papal Condemnation of Dances, 1916
    « Reply #14 on: October 06, 2022, 10:20:21 AM »
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  • The ones i just mentioned in the bible quotes.

    Furthermore, there is no dance that is sinful. This is a form of gnosticism to say so for it conflates concupiscence with the object.
    .
    It is a sin to put oneself in the occasion of sin. Dances are an occasion of sin. This is not gnosticism, but simple Catholic morals.

    Quote
    Its akin to saying sex is a sin, or beauty is a sin or women are a sin for they can all lead to concupiscence.


    Tell that to all the saints quoted in the article above, as well as the Holy Office. They said dancing is a sin. They didn't say sex is a sin, or that being beautiful is a sin, or that being a woman is a sin.