https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZiqpWa2838 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZiqpWa2838)
This is reminiscent of the thread on “rock” and “pop” music. Let common and Catholic sense reign. Just as there are acceptable tunes in a very broad category, the same applies to the broad category of dancing. There’s a huge difference between dancing the Macarena, folk dancing, square dancing——-and twerking, pole dancing, and giving a lap dance!
I was once condemned by a “pious” woman for doing the Macarena at a family-friendly neighborhood block party. She cited St. John Vianney as proof I’d committed a serious mortal sin. :facepalm:
Now, if I’d been clad in Daisy Dukes, pasties, and shiny red six inch high heels, twerking on top of the bar surrounded by salivating men…totally different!
This is reminiscent of the thread on “rock” and “pop” music. Let common and Catholic sense reign. Just as there are acceptable tunes in a very broad category, the same applies to the broad category of dancing. There’s a huge difference between dancing the Macarena, folk dancing, square dancing——-and twerking, pole dancing, and giving a lap dance!That makes sense, I agree. To clarify, my anecdote was merely to illustrate the complete blindness that some have to traditional Catholic practices. There's a specific time, such as having a dance on a Sunday, which was clearly laid out as a sinful profanation of the Holy day even in the John XXIII 1962 Missal. Yet, that doesn't mean all dancing whatsoever is forbidden. There's a reason Protestants have historically condemned Catholics for loose morals (while also saying we have strict morals, go figure); and that's because we are able to partake in recreation and fun (gasp!) in moderation.
I was once condemned by a “pious” woman for doing the Macarena at a family-friendly neighborhood block party. She cited St. John Vianney as proof I’d committed a serious mortal sin. :facepalm:
Now, if I’d been clad in Daisy Dukes, pasties, and shiny red six inch high heels, twerking on top of the bar surrounded by salivating men…totally different!
This is reminiscent of the thread on “rock” and “pop” music. Let common and Catholic sense reign. Just as there are acceptable tunes in a very broad category, the same applies to the broad category of dancing. There’s a huge difference between dancing the Macarena, folk dancing, square dancing——-and twerking, pole dancing, and giving a lap dance!.
I was once condemned by a “pious” woman for doing the Macarena at a family-friendly neighborhood block party. She cited St. John Vianney as proof I’d committed a serious mortal sin. :facepalm:
Now, if I’d been clad in Daisy Dukes, pasties, and shiny red six inch high heels, twerking on top of the bar surrounded by salivating men…totally different!
I would like ti bring this discussion down to earth.The ones i just mentioned in the bible quotes.
Is there any dance you can think of that might not be sinful?
You probably can't name one.
Is anyone dancing that today?
No.
So when someone asks you is dancing sinful you say: almost every dance is sinful.
We are talking of course about mixed dances which are basically all dances.
If you want to lean left and right in your room and call that a dance nobody is talking about that.
The ones i just mentioned in the bible quotes..
Furthermore, there is no dance that is sinful. This is a form of gnosticism to say so for it conflates concupiscence with the object.
Its akin to saying sex is a sin, or beauty is a sin or women are a sin for they can all lead to concupiscence.
I would like ti bring this discussion down to earth..
Is there any dance you can think of that might not be sinful?
You probably can't name one.
Is anyone dancing that today?
No.
So when someone asks you is dancing sinful you say: almost every dance is sinful.
We are talking of course about mixed dances which are basically all dances.
If you want to lean left and right in your room and call that a dance nobody is talking about that.
The ones i just mentioned in the bible quotes.This accusation of gnosticism has grown quite fashionable these days.
Furthermore, there is no dance that is sinful. This is a form of gnosticism to say so for it conflates concupiscence with the object. Its akin to saying sex is a sin, or beauty is a sin or women are a sin for they can all lead to concupiscence.
Until someone actually cites the papal teaching to show the actual nuance about what type of dancing, this discussion is mere navel gazing.Papal teachings rarely get that nuanced; they usually provide the principals to follow. Otherwise, you will get people that says, "Look the Pope has specifically condemn X, Y, and Z but he never said anything about Q, so therefore we can do Q!"
.Dances are not an occasion of sin nor a sin. Otherwise you make David, God, Mary sister of aaron, holy virgins of the OT to be sinners. Tell that to all the saints quoted above from the bible, whom you convenient ignored. They trump some dubious article with no provenance written by some random self appointed lay teacher who people now flock to with itching ears to find the next juicy scandal to condemn to enliven their dull but "pious" lives.
It is a sin to put oneself in the occasion of sin. Dances are an occasion of sin. This is not gnosticism, but simple Catholic morals.
Tell that to all the saints quoted in the article above, as well as the Holy Office. They said dancing is a sin. They didn't say sex is a sin, or that being beautiful is a sin, or that being a woman is a sin.
This accusation of gnosticism has grown quite fashionable these days.Oh just weddings and funerals...
Do you perchance dance occasionally?
This accusation of gnosticism has grown quite fashionable these days.And puritanism is becoming quite fashionable these days too
Do you perchance dance occasionally?
.A true equivalence would be if someone said drinking alcohol is a sin in itself.
Yes, obviously. We're talking about something people do. The conversation we're having now is like someone posting a sermon saying that drunkenness is a sin, and someone brilliant sophist pipes up and says, "Not necessarily! If you were a sailor on a 17th man-of-war and your leg got shredded by a load of grapeshot and needed to be sawed off with a hacksaw, you would be given a huge amount of whisky by the ship's surgeon to make you pass out so you wouldn't go flying off the operating table when he started sawing off your leg. Therefore it is not true to say that drunkenness is always a sin." Okay boomer. :laugh1:
Dances are not an occasion of sin nor a sin. Otherwise you make David, God, Mary sister of aaron, holy virgins of the OT to be sinners. Tell that to all the saints quoted above from the bible, whom you convenient ignored. They trump some dubious article with no provenance written by some random self appointed lay teacher who people now flock to with itching ears to find the next juicy scandal to condemn to enliven their dull but "pious" lives.Where does it say any of these engaged in dances with a member of the opposite sex?
Still no one has provided the papal text.
Where does it say any of these engaged in dances with a member of the opposite sex?Irrelevant to the condemnation that all dancing is a sin. But all the examples depict men and women dancing in the presence of each other if it doesn't explicitly say they danced with each other.
And I think the OT people were held to a lower standard than us. If you read the Bible, you will see the OT just are much less impressive than New Covenant saints.
And even when dancing alone, a woman could make herself a temptation, and yet part of that might be due to her attractiveness and her grace/athleticism, where a less attractive woman who's out of shape migth cause no occasion of sin.That made me chuckle.
... To me it speaks to a certain frivolity, and the motions of the body seem to draw one's mind and nature down toward the carnal, the animal, and the material world...Careful, this sentiment that seems to be expressed in your quote above is getting close to what is expressed in Gnosticism. Spiritual = good Material = Bad.
Saint Francis de Sales wrote a great chapter on dancing in his book Introduction to the Devout Life:Well thought out responses and teaching from a saint that dance itself is not a sin, therefore is a good thing but like all goods can be perverted by intention and circuмstances.
***
"St. Francis de Sales On Dancing
Taken From - Introduction to the Devout Life, Part III. Ch.33
In themselves, dances and balls are indifferent things. However, in actual practice they tend strongly toward the side of evil, and therefore are dangerous.
People dance at night, and in darkened rooms. This favors certain familiarities. People stay up late and this results in their rising late the next day, causing the morning to be wasted. Consequently, they miss opportunities of serving God. Is it not foolish to turn night into day and day into night and to replace useful work with frivolous pleasure? Finally, at balls everyone tries to outdo everybody else in vanity, and vanity is favorable to the evil affections and dangerous loves which dancing so easily spawns.
Philothea, what physicians say about mushrooms or pumpkins I say about dances: The best of them are not worth much! However, if you must eat pumpkins, be careful how they are prepared, eat only a little of them, and that rarely. In the same way, if you cannot give up going to balls, be careful how you dance, doing so with modesty, dignity and the right intention. Attend balls rarely, because no matter how carefully you conduct yourself at them, there is danger of excess in them, by becoming too attached to them.
Because they are spongy, mushrooms are said to attract the surrounding rot. The same is true of balls and other such night-oriented gatherings. They usually attract sin: quarrels, jealousies, mockery; sensual loves. These activities open the pores of the heart to be poisoned by some loose word or some folly or some wanton glance of love. Yes, Philothea, such amusements are usually dangerous. They scatter one's spirit of devotion, weaken one's strength and chill one's charity. They awaken countless evil affections in the soul. Because of all this, use them with great caution.
After eating mushrooms, one is advised above all to drink some good wine. I personally advise you to think some holy and good thoughts after a ball. These will counterbalance the bad impressions you may have received there.
What are some such holy and good thoughts? While I was dancing, some people were burning in Hell for sins committed at dances or occasioned by their dancing. While I was dancing, monks, nuns and other fervent Christians were chanting God's praise and contemplating His beauty, thus using their time far more profitably than I was. While I was dancing, many souls departed from this world in great anguish; thousands were suffering dreadful pains in hospitals... While I was dancing; the time of my earthly life was hurrying by and death was approaching nearer. See how he mocks and invites me to his dance! In that dance I shall take but one step from this life to the next."
Well thought out responses and teaching from a saint that dance itself is not a sin, therefore is a good thing but like all goods can be perverted by intention and circuмstances.Please quote where I said all dancing is bad.
The armchair moralists without authority should think before blanket condemning goods as sins and people as sinners for they set themselves up impossibly high standards for which Christ taught they will be judged for "judge not lest ye be judged".
That was a calumny which thr Vatican vehemently denied. See novusordowatch.org pius x tango dance
2. If one is to dance, one should use appropriate dances. (I remember hearing something before about Pope Pius X ridiculing the Tango and saying if people wanted to dance to do a innocent folk dance instead.). Among such better dances would probably fall British Contra Dancing, Old cινιℓ ωαr Dancing, and perhaps square dancing. With such dances there is less physical contact and more grace elegance attached.
Careful, this sentiment that seems to be expressed in your quote above is getting close to what is expressed in Gnosticism. Spiritual = good Material = Bad.
Although I am right there with you on avoiding animalistic behavior like dancing like some tranced out voodoo priests, We do not want to drift into the thought that the material world is bad. It is, after all part of the created order which is fundamentally good. That doesn't mean I think it is ok for our daughters to be twerking on Saturday night in the club, but you get my point. We can have a celebration and have non sinful fun with one another here in this world. After all, the very first miracle was when Our Blessed Lord provided extra wine for the wedding feast when all the wine was consumed by the participants. That could be called "frivolous" by some.
Well thought out responses and teaching from a saint that dance itself is not a sin, therefore is a good thing but like all goods can be perverted by intention and circuмstances.Well said.
The armchair moralists without authority should think before blanket condemning goods as sins and people as sinners for they set themselves up impossibly high standards for which Christ taught they will be judged for "judge not lest ye be judged".
That was a calumny which thr Vatican vehemently denied. See novusordowatch.org pius x tango danceFrom the way I understood it...
From the way I understood it...He did not endorse any dance or dancing in general. The Vatican was quite adamant to deny this as most absurd.
The calumny was that Pope Pius X APPROVED of the tango. That he certainly did NOT do. (This all came up because Bergolio was trying to makes excuses for why he danced it and like it.)
I believe the truth of the story was that Pope Pius X heard how the Italian Royalty were all into the Tango dance and he was questioned as to it's morality. When shown how it was he suggested that if people wanted to dance ought to do a more appropriate and innocent country dance. And if I remember right, soon after this event, he arranged for the Holy Office to put out something saying the Tango was not to be danced.
Read the whole article here: https://novusordowatch.org/2020/08/dirty-dancing-fake-news-pius10-tango/QuoteThere was no surprise here today at the complete refutation by the Vatican of the story that Pope Pius saw the tango danced in his private apartments, saw nothing wrong with it and recommended the Venetian furlana to tangoers.
“The story is so inconceivably absurd that it does not need a denial,” says a statement from the Vatican.Pope Was Never Interviewed.The statement is to the effect that the Pope was never interviewed by anyone in regard to the tango.The matter of this particular dance was left to the discretion of the various bishops who have explicitly alluded to modern fashionable dancing, and this, of course, included all dances which are equally objectionable and immoral as the tango.
The statement continues:
“The recent attempts to revive obsolete Venetian dances here as a pretext to hide the tango under an old name with the object of evading the condemnation of such dances are obviously not approved or encouraged by the Pope.Stories Are Called Ridiculous.“The Pope’s exalted position, well-known piety, old age and unaffected dignity, which inspire the veneration of the world, render unnecessary a denial of the ridiculous stories of his recommending the furlana to replace the tango and of allowing his servants to dance in his presence.
“The story is so inconceivably absurd that it does not need a denial. Representatives of the Holy See aborad are authorized, however, officially to deny the stories, if they think fit, that the Pope encourages the furlana, which is a vulgar peasant dance, consisting of violent hopping movements, accompanied by slapping of the thighs. The nuncio at Vienna has already denied the stories.
“The Pope deplores the action of dancing teachers in using his name to advertise the furlana, which is replacing the tango, on the pretext that it has been approved by the Pope.”Will Denounce Modern Dances.“In his allocution to the forthcoming consistory the Pope will denounce the modern dances which are perverting the morals of the people. He will deplore the insults of his person and the attempts to cast ridicule on Christ’s vicar.
“The Pope recently said that the loyalty and obedience of Catholics and the respect of a majority of non-Catholics consoled him and he trusted in Providence that all right-minded Christians would unite in combating the prevailing wave of immorality which threatens to submerge the world.
“He prays night and day that his last years might not be embittered by the thought that the world was menaced by a new paganism.”
(“Vatican Declares Tango Story False” (https://www.newspapers.com/image/365445375), The Evening Sun, Feb. 3, 1914, p. 9; bold print given.)
.. This is talking about something that provokes sins of the flesh. Need anyone say more?The Macarena provokes sins of the flesh? Not that I’ve ever experienced or seen anyone else fall into! But if all dancing tempts you, then by all means, you must flee from it and anything related that might make you think of dancing.
The Macarena provokes sins of the flesh? Not that I’ve ever experienced or seen anyone else fall into! But if all dancing tempts you, then by all means, you must flee from it and anything related that might make you think of dancing.First of all, I don't need to study the choreography of a dance from 1993 to know it's going to be scandalous but I did it anyway. This is a man dancing the macarena: https://youtu.be/rVBHH5DwYFA?t=60
The Macarena provokes sins of the flesh? Not that I’ve ever experienced or seen anyone else fall into! But if all dancing tempts you, then by all means, you must flee from it and anything related that might make you think of dancing.Would you like to share with the class what the Macarena's really about? Maybe you don't know? That's hard for me to believe, since I'm nobody and I already know, but I'll leave it to you or somebody else to share the story.
The Macarena provokes sins of the flesh? Not that I’ve ever experienced or seen anyone else fall into! But if all dancing tempts you, then by all means, you must flee from it and anything related that might make you think of dancing.You should read the lyrics of the song.