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Author Topic: The Papal Condemnation of Dances, 1916  (Read 3464 times)

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Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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Re: The Papal Condemnation of Dances, 1916
« Reply #30 on: October 07, 2022, 09:40:09 AM »
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  • Well thought out responses and teaching from a saint that dance itself is not a sin, therefore is a good thing but like all goods can be perverted by intention and circuмstances.

    The armchair moralists without authority should think before blanket condemning goods as sins and people as sinners for they set themselves up impossibly high standards for which Christ taught they will be judged for "judge not lest ye be judged".
    Please quote where I said all dancing is bad.


    Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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    Re: The Papal Condemnation of Dances, 1916
    « Reply #31 on: October 07, 2022, 09:42:19 AM »
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  • 2.  If one is to dance, one should use appropriate dances.  (I remember hearing something before about Pope Pius X ridiculing the Tango and saying if people wanted to dance to do a innocent folk dance instead.). Among such better dances would probably fall British Contra Dancing, Old cινιℓ ωαr Dancing, and perhaps square dancing.  With such dances there is less physical contact and more grace elegance attached.
    That was a calumny which thr Vatican vehemently denied. See novusordowatch.org pius x tango dance


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Papal Condemnation of Dances, 1916
    « Reply #32 on: October 07, 2022, 09:59:39 AM »
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  • Careful, this sentiment that seems to be expressed in your quote above is getting close to what is expressed in Gnosticism. Spiritual = good  Material = Bad.

    Although I am right there with you on avoiding animalistic behavior like dancing like some tranced out voodoo priests, We do not want to drift into the thought that the material world is bad. It is, after all part of the created order which is fundamentally good. That doesn't mean I think it is ok for our daughters to be twerking on Saturday night in the club, but you get my point. We can have a celebration and have non sinful fun with one another here in this world. After all, the very first miracle was when Our Blessed Lord provided extra wine for the wedding feast when all the wine was consumed by the participants. That could be called "frivolous" by some.

    No, I don't think so.  I don't reject physical activity, and have no problem engaging in sports, etc.  There's something about dancing that rubs me the wrong way personally.  I think where it differs from sports is that with sports there's an objective or a point to the movement.  You're doing it for a reason, and the movements of the body follow reason, whereas dancing is just moving for the sake of moving and taking pleasure in the movement itself.

    Neither of these comments speak to the moral aspect of dancing either.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Papal Condemnation of Dances, 1916
    « Reply #33 on: October 07, 2022, 10:05:32 AM »
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  • It would seem to me that the rationale behind both the Holy Office statement and what St. Francis de Sale wrote are primarily the aspect of potential inducement to impurity.

    So, for instance, if you had a dance that did not include both genders (but one or the other), then it would not be sinful ... at least along those lines.

    St. Francis also does mention "frivolity" and wasting time that could otherwise be spent in God's service, but that's not inherent to the dancing itself.  You could waste time doing other activities as well.

    But there are other aspects being missed.  Let's say it's just a group of guys dancing and they're thrashing about to "Death Metal".  There are those vodoo people who use dancing to get themselves into trances.

    So I think that a consideration can be made also of types of dancing that could be spiritually harmful even outside of considerations of impurity.  It can be thought of as related to why Rock music can be harmful ... even IF there's no impure content or otherwise sinful content (foul language, blasphemy, etc.)  Take one of those Christian Heavy Metal groups for instance.

    I still think that it can be harmful for other reasons ... even if it isn't per se directly sinful.

    So what I was saying above about frivolous / rhythmic nature of the movement dovetails with what Bishop Williamson has described as the problematic aspect of Rock music.

    Offline epiphany

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    Re: The Papal Condemnation of Dances, 1916
    « Reply #34 on: October 07, 2022, 11:51:40 AM »
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  • Well thought out responses and teaching from a saint that dance itself is not a sin, therefore is a good thing but like all goods can be perverted by intention and circuмstances.

    The armchair moralists without authority should think before blanket condemning goods as sins and people as sinners for they set themselves up impossibly high standards for which Christ taught they will be judged for "judge not lest ye be judged".
    Well said.


    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: The Papal Condemnation of Dances, 1916
    « Reply #35 on: October 07, 2022, 12:19:15 PM »
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  • That was a calumny which thr Vatican vehemently denied. See novusordowatch.org pius x tango dance
    From the way I understood it...

    The calumny was that Pope Pius X APPROVED of the tango.  That he certainly did NOT do.  (This all came up because Bergolio was trying to makes excuses for why he danced it and like it.)

    I believe the truth of the story was that Pope Pius X heard how the Italian Royalty were all into the Tango dance and he was questioned as to it's morality.  When shown how it was he suggested that if people wanted to dance ought to do a more appropriate and innocent country dance.  And if I remember right, soon after this event, he arranged for the Holy Office to put out something saying the Tango was not to be danced.
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    Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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    Re: The Papal Condemnation of Dances, 1916
    « Reply #36 on: October 09, 2022, 09:45:31 AM »
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  • From the way I understood it...

    The calumny was that Pope Pius X APPROVED of the tango.  That he certainly did NOT do.  (This all came up because Bergolio was trying to makes excuses for why he danced it and like it.)

    I believe the truth of the story was that Pope Pius X heard how the Italian Royalty were all into the Tango dance and he was questioned as to it's morality.  When shown how it was he suggested that if people wanted to dance ought to do a more appropriate and innocent country dance.  And if I remember right, soon after this event, he arranged for the Holy Office to put out something saying the Tango was not to be danced.
    He did not endorse any dance or dancing in general. The Vatican was quite adamant to deny this as most absurd.

    Quote
    Quote
    There was no surprise here today at the complete refutation by the Vatican of the story that Pope Pius saw the tango danced in his private apartments, saw nothing wrong with it and recommended the Venetian furlana to tangoers.
    “The story is so inconceivably absurd that it does not need a denial,” says a statement from the Vatican.
    Pope Was Never Interviewed.
    The statement is to the effect that the Pope was never interviewed by anyone in regard to the tango.
    The matter of this particular dance was left to the discretion of the various bishops who have explicitly alluded to modern fashionable dancing, and this, of course, included all dances which are equally objectionable and immoral as the tango.
    The statement continues:
     “The recent attempts to revive obsolete Venetian dances here as a pretext to hide the tango under an old name with the object of evading the condemnation of such dances are obviously not approved or encouraged by the Pope.
    Stories Are Called Ridiculous.
    “The Pope’s exalted position, well-known piety, old age and unaffected dignity, which inspire the veneration of the world, render unnecessary a denial of the ridiculous stories of his recommending the furlana to replace the tango and of allowing his servants to dance in his presence.
    “The story is so inconceivably absurd that it does not need a denial. Representatives of the Holy See aborad are authorized, however, officially to deny the stories, if they think fit, that the Pope encourages the furlana, which is a vulgar peasant dance, consisting of violent hopping movements, accompanied by slapping of the thighs. The nuncio at Vienna has already denied the stories.
    “The Pope deplores the action of dancing teachers in using his name to advertise the furlana, which is replacing the tango, on the pretext that it has been approved by the Pope.”
    Will Denounce Modern Dances.
    “In his allocution to the forthcoming consistory the Pope will denounce the modern dances which are perverting the morals of the people. He will deplore the insults of his person and the attempts to cast ridicule on Christ’s vicar.
    “The Pope recently said that the loyalty and obedience of Catholics and the respect of a majority of non-Catholics consoled him and he trusted in Providence that all right-minded Christians would unite in combating the prevailing wave of immorality which threatens to submerge the world.
    “He prays night and day that his last years might not be embittered by the thought that the world was menaced by a new paganism.”
    (“Vatican Declares Tango Story False”, The Evening Sun, Feb. 3, 1914, p. 9; bold print given.)
    Read the whole article here: https://novusordowatch.org/2020/08/dirty-dancing-fake-news-pius10-tango/

    Some modernist just invented the story to promote degenerate dances.

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: The Papal Condemnation of Dances, 1916
    « Reply #37 on: October 12, 2022, 11:50:18 AM »
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  • .. This is talking about something that provokes sins of the flesh. Need anyone say more?
    The Macarena provokes sins of the flesh?  Not that I’ve ever experienced or seen anyone else fall into!  But if all dancing tempts you, then by all means, you must flee from it and anything related that might make you think of dancing.  


    Offline Mr G

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    Re: The Papal Condemnation of Dances, 1916
    « Reply #38 on: October 12, 2022, 12:16:20 PM »
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  • This topic reminds me of the unfortunate event of Bob Finklesteinburg, he got addicted to the Hokey Pokey but fortunately with much help, he turned himself around.

    Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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    Re: The Papal Condemnation of Dances, 1916
    « Reply #39 on: October 12, 2022, 12:27:24 PM »
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  • The Macarena provokes sins of the flesh?  Not that I’ve ever experienced or seen anyone else fall into!  But if all dancing tempts you, then by all means, you must flee from it and anything related that might make you think of dancing. 
    First of all, I don't need to study the choreography of a dance from 1993 to know it's going to be scandalous but I did it anyway. This is a man dancing the macarena: https://youtu.be/rVBHH5DwYFA?t=60

    Of course, this is a scandalous dance and Catholic men would be very disturbed by watching a woman dance it.

    You are profoundly ignorant of how the visual affects men and I guess that's for the better if you nevertheless dress per Pius XI's instructions and avoid immodest dances (i.e. all dances that are practised today).

    The problem is not in the person scandalized by the dance but in the dance itself.

    Offline canis

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    Re: The Papal Condemnation of Dances, 1916
    « Reply #40 on: October 12, 2022, 06:07:26 PM »
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  • Two perhaps interesting historical-canonical points about the 1916 condemnation to keep in mind:

    1. It does not condemn dancing per se (although it was taken for granted by the moralists that certain dances by their very form were immoral as a rule or tended easily to become occasions of sin) but specifically what was condemned were church fundraising dinners/celebrations that include ball dancing (convivia cuм choreis), especially when they go late into the night and typically alcohol is involved.

    The condemnation specifies the priest and a parish's public relation to dances, viz, he (representing the church) can't promote or foster/support (promoveant et foveant) dances, nor can he attend any dance organized by laity. This condemnation was directed towards North America specifically to support the warnings promulgated by the Baltimore Council Fathers.

    A series of articles in the Ecclesiastical Review following the condemnation clarify these points (and more), and that journal tended to the more rigorist interpretation of morals. It had more to do with what a pastor was supposed to do or refrain from rather than dancing itself:

    "The decree positively forbids the promotion and encouragement of such entertainments on the part of members of the clergy, religious or diocesan: 'quonimus memoratas choreas promoveant et foveant'."

    Remember that laws restricting rights must be read narrowly and strictly.

    2. The canonists also noted that the 1916 decree still applied after the 1917 Code went into effect and wasn't nullified by it because it was a specific condemnation of a moral abuse that was occurring, not a mere disciplinary law. So it stands to reason that it still has moral force today (similar to how Ratzinger said the Index still has moral force).

    That being said, even the moralists who took a more lax view to the 1916 condemnation still tended to be strict on the dangers of dancing as a strong occasion of sin for young, unmarried people. But in my experience, not a few traditional priests are completely unaware of the 1916 decree and the discussions of the moralists that followed it.


    Offline Donachie

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    Re: The Papal Condemnation of Dances, 1916
    « Reply #41 on: October 12, 2022, 07:22:44 PM »
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  • The Macarena provokes sins of the flesh?  Not that I’ve ever experienced or seen anyone else fall into!  But if all dancing tempts you, then by all means, you must flee from it and anything related that might make you think of dancing. 
    Would you like to share with the class what the Macarena's really about? Maybe you don't know? That's hard for me to believe, since I'm nobody and I already know, but I'll leave it to you or somebody else to share the story.

    Offline FarmerWife

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    Re: The Papal Condemnation of Dances, 1916
    « Reply #42 on: October 12, 2022, 07:27:27 PM »
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  • The Macarena provokes sins of the flesh?  Not that I’ve ever experienced or seen anyone else fall into!  But if all dancing tempts you, then by all means, you must flee from it and anything related that might make you think of dancing. 
    You should read the lyrics of the song.

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: The Papal Condemnation of Dances, 1916
    « Reply #43 on: October 13, 2022, 07:57:47 AM »
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  • Here are some of the lyrics:

    When I dance, they call me Macarena
    And the boys they say que estoy buena
    They all want me, they can't have me
    So they all come and dance beside me


    Move with me, chant with me
    And if you're good, I'll take you home with me
    Move with me, chant with me
    And if you're good, I'll take you home with me