Author Topic: The future of Tradition  (Read 4337 times)

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Offline Matthew

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The future of Tradition
« on: October 25, 2012, 03:08:54 PM »
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  • One of the most fascinating topics, in my opinion, is the subject of "Tradition: the next generation"

    How many of today's pillars of the Traditional movement came over from the Novus Ordo at some point?  How many multi-generational Trad families are there?

    We talked about "success" vs "Catholic living" last week. On a related note, have you even wondered how some of today's Trads are going to be replaced?

    Can they be replaced? Not really. Let me explain:

    Many pillars of Tradition -- especially financially -- have such means because they chose their careers (and sometimes their WIVES' careers!) before they were traditional Catholic. And it's easy to get in a good situation financially when you only have 2 or 3 children.

    How many older Catholics -- Baby Boomers for example -- do you know with large families (defined as "more than 4 children")? I'm not saying they're bad or doomed or anything like that, but it's a fact that many of today's older trad Catholics have 2-3 children. During their childbearing years, they used NFP, birth control, whatever.

    It's easy to amass wealth when you don't have to use both hands -- and one foot -- to count your children.

    And Baby Boomers lived in a different world, where it wasn't quite as bad to send your children to Public School. I know that my wife and I would have TONS more time to make (and save) money if our 2 oldest were gone all day to school. We'd also save on homeschooling book expenses.

    How can today's 2nd or 3rd generation trads compete with this? Unless they inherit a chunk of wealth, there's NO WAY they will be in a similar position financially in 40 years.

    It's not that having children is expensive, but there is SOME added expense with each additional child, and there is certainly a TIME and LOST OPPORTUNITY cost associated with taking care of a big family. I speak from experience on this.

    If a 2nd generation Trad went for one of the careers these Baby Boomers have today, he'd be compromising his Faith -- which is why so few of them are willing to do it. I can't really blame them. But it is going to change the face of the Trad movement in a couple decades.

    I could give you dozens of examples; this is something I'm quite confident about.

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    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    The future of Tradition
    « Reply #1 on: October 25, 2012, 04:29:22 PM »
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  • there are single never been married traditional Catholics who are struggling financially too.  Also, it is hard for many to find a good catholic spouse.
    That is a reason why so many catholics married later in life too.
       
    Also, there are also many trad catholics who would didn't choose careers over family and wanted more then 3 children and couldn't.

    Then there are traditional catholics who never used birthcontrol NFP and are struggling with infertility.  How painful to attend Mass and see everyone with 7-8 children and then not even have one.
     
    And everyone is so prolife   this and pro life that and yet no one can (not even clergy) can tell the parents how or where  to adopt these babies.
    So how many babies are actually being saved?

    They found out that Peta killed more animals then finding homes because many people  were so obsessed with protesting and fundraising they forgot about the goal.    

    However, Catholicism as we know it might be illegal.  It was liberal jewish and catholics  (Mayor Bloomberg of NYC and cardinal Dolan) who both denied Christ with the religious ban of September 11, 2012 ceremony.  

    It was liberal catholics, protestants and Jewish people who were delegates and they tried to deny God and remove him from the platform.  They even booed God.  

    In a New Jersey , many of us traditional and vatican II catholics called our representatives when the state governemnt tried to do away with homeschooling.   It might have been a jewish elected official who presented the bill..  I'm not sure.  

    I do know that in New Jersey, that a jewish democrat...tried to rid certain holidays like Columbus day and memorial and Irish teaching in the schools.  He later died young.  For once the Ancient order of hibernians did something.

    Also, the New Jersey hall of fame tried to induct a cartoonist who was well known for his anti -irish cartoons during the  days of anti-Catholicism in america ...

    Did you know that New Jersey first Constitution discriminated against Catholics..


    My ancestors who were traditional cAtholics came to this country had big families and were dirt poor and persecuted and had cross burning on their lawns.  
    Poor and brave German priests from philadelphia would dodge bullets and other dangers to have Mass at their home.  

    It was because of their Catholic Faith that pulled them through and because of their hard labors the Church was built....   then came vatican II

    So we all come from "traditional" Catholicism.  NOvus order this novus ordo that.  Thee would never been any diocese of camden or philly if it wasn't for the real Catholics, including my own ancestors...who came from Ireland...  

    Pretty soon the penal laws will return.  How many will take the easy way out.

    In New Jersey a priest was hung for offering Mass to african americans and native Americans...Burlington county, NJ


    Did you know there were riots in PHiladelphia when the know nothings were harrassing and murdering catholics..

       
    To live with the Saints in Heaven is all bliss and glory....To live with the saints on Earth is just another story!  (unknown)


    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    The future of Tradition
    « Reply #2 on: October 25, 2012, 04:48:19 PM »
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  • oops got off topic somehow..

    these are hard times for everyone.  We've had our share of hard times financially.  


    The Catholic faith in our house hold  always came first because it is who we are.
    It is what brought us together.

    To live with the Saints in Heaven is all bliss and glory....To live with the saints on Earth is just another story!  (unknown)

    Offline Matthew

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    The future of Tradition
    « Reply #3 on: October 25, 2012, 05:22:10 PM »
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  • Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey
    oops got off topic somehow..

    these are hard times for everyone.  We've had our share of hard times financially.  


    The Catholic faith in our house hold  always came first because it is who we are.
    It is what brought us together.



    Yes, you did get way off-topic.

    I would appreciate it if you -- and anyone reading this -- would please stay on-topic.

    So if there's anything in Viva's post (above) that "makes you want to post" -- please start a new thread. Thank you.
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    Offline Matthew

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    The future of Tradition
    « Reply #4 on: October 25, 2012, 05:30:17 PM »
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  • I can comment on the first 3 lines of your post -- the ones that WERE on-topic.

    I understand infertility, marrying late, etc. but that doesn't explain why 999 out of 1000 Baby Boomers have 3 or 4 children. Usually not less than 3, but usually not more than 4.

    It's up there with "own your own home", "debt is no big deal", "invest in the stock market", "increase your standard of living over the years", "vacations are important" and "use credit cards" in the Baby Boomer Rule of Life handbook.

    Let's dredge up my qualifications again -- I've been a trad for 3 decades. I've seen many chapels and known plenty of trads. I seldom meet large families founded by Baby Boomers. Even the "good ones" used NFP, or didn't grasp the whole CULTURAL Catholicism (as taught by the SSPX, etc.) until much later in life.

    Heck, a few Baby Boomers have smaller families because of the modern epidemic of C-sections. "Trust the doctors", "Trust pharmaceuticals/pharmaceutical companies" are also tenets of Baby Boomers.

    Incidentally, every tenet I listed above as being held by Baby Boomers -- I completely reject myself. Except for owning your own home, but even then I differ from them. I believe homes should NOT be paid on for 30 years. Mortgages should NOT be a fact of life.

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    Offline JohnGrey

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    The future of Tradition
    « Reply #5 on: October 25, 2012, 08:02:33 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    One of the most fascinating topics, in my opinion, is the subject of "Tradition: the next generation"

    How many of today's pillars of the Traditional movement came over from the Novus Ordo at some point?  How many multi-generational Trad families are there?

    We talked about "success" vs "Catholic living" last week. On a related note, have you even wondered how some of today's Trads are going to be replaced?

    Can they be replaced? Not really. Let me explain:

    Many pillars of Tradition -- especially financially -- have such means because they chose their careers (and sometimes their WIVES' careers!) before they were traditional Catholic. And it's easy to get in a good situation financially when you only have 2 or 3 children.

    How many older Catholics -- Baby Boomers for example -- do you know with large families (defined as "more than 4 children")? I'm not saying they're bad or doomed or anything like that, but it's a fact that many of today's older trad Catholics have 2-3 children. During their childbearing years, they used NFP, birth control, whatever.

    It's easy to amass wealth when you don't have to use both hands -- and one foot -- to count your children.

    And Baby Boomers lived in a different world, where it wasn't quite as bad to send your children to Public School. I know that my wife and I would have TONS more time to make (and save) money if our 2 oldest were gone all day to school. We'd also save on homeschooling book expenses.

    How can today's 2nd or 3rd generation trads compete with this? Unless they inherit a chunk of wealth, there's NO WAY they will be in a similar position financially in 40 years.

    It's not that having children is expensive, but there is SOME added expense with each additional child, and there is certainly a TIME and LOST OPPORTUNITY cost associated with taking care of a big family. I speak from experience on this.

    If a 2nd generation Trad went for one of the careers these Baby Boomers have today, he'd be compromising his Faith -- which is why so few of them are willing to do it. I can't really blame them. But it is going to change the face of the Trad movement in a couple decades.

    I could give you dozens of examples; this is something I'm quite confident about.


    I said it previous in your "two types of priests" thread and I'll say it again: a lot of traditional Catholics won't go into the professions that will afford them the means to support a large family because of the outright hostility that they would receive from other members of their churches.  This is especially true in pure and applies sciences, from which you get doctors, physicists, engineers, etc.  This is the digital age and these forefronts of science are the only places where a man can truly make excellent money in a manner that doesn't swindle people or cooperate with government/social grift.  Scientists are the only producers left on the planet, which is frightening when you consider how flighty some of them are.

    Offline padrepio

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    The future of Tradition
    « Reply #6 on: October 25, 2012, 09:43:33 PM »
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  • Do you think it would help if Traditional Catholics would work at securing their own social groups.  Such as, through their own chapels, creating groups that help each other in need with things like helping out when large families are just starting out and might need babysitting, help with home repairs, chapel food bank, etc.  All under the guidance of the priest who would know what family needs what kind of help.

    As well as blessings from the priest for whatever needs blessings, homes, cars, pets, etc.  Active devotions in chapels, even if a priest isn't available all the time.

    We have some activities at our chapel, but communication falls apart, hurt feelings, gossip, etc. get in the way and things continuously fall apart.

    Offline bowler

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    The future of Tradition
    « Reply #7 on: October 26, 2012, 04:50:38 AM »
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  • Quote from: JohnGrey
     a lot of traditional Catholics won't go into the professions that will afford them the means to support a large family because of the outright hostility that they would receive from other members of their churches.  


    Then they are cowards and idiots for letting peer group pressure affect their lives. As long as one is not sinning, they can work at any profession.


    Offline bowler

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    The future of Tradition
    « Reply #8 on: October 26, 2012, 05:13:29 AM »
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  • To survive their financial futures, young traditionalist will have to follow the same technique they used for finding the truth about the faith; they have to follow history, what was done before in past times.

    One example is the family. In past times family lived in the same neighborhood; grandparents, uncles, aunts, brothers, cousins, all lived in the same neighborhood, and helped each other out. (TODAY- everyone lives in different states!) The family ( grandparents, uncles, aunts, brothers, cousins) started the young people in business, teaching them from a young age. P.S.- too get started, family can be other trads.

    That one change is EVERYTHING!!!!!! As long as Americans "go it alone", they don't have a chance.

    from: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08202a.htm (1907 encyclopedia)

    .. 87 per cent of the Italians of the United States are settled in the New England and North Atlantic divisions, and that of these nearly 80 per cent crowd into the large cities. This congestion presents a most serious problem. The phenomenon, however, is not peculiar to the Italians; it is also to be observed in the case of other nationalities which are in the same economic condition as the Italians. The city offers a large number of various resources; it furnishes work to the newcomer from the start, and it needs the newcomer for a variety of occupations which he alone can fill. The Italian immigrant is perhaps the most adaptable of all in this respect; he is intelligent, in most cases sober, faithful in his work, always looking for an opportunity to increase his salary. He goes from one shop to another, from the railroad tracks to the mill.

    Offline padrepio

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    The future of Tradition
    « Reply #9 on: October 26, 2012, 09:25:04 AM »
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  • Thanks bowler, I was thinking about how family ties helped individuals succeed, in my head, but didn't write it down.  I would also add, at least here in the US, cultural background helped individuals succeed.  Willa Cather writes about it in her novels.  Just as masons help each other succeed.

    I remember reading Catholic groups (guilds) were organized to help other Catholics, and at one time the SSPX tried to promote the idea.


    Offline Ascetik

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    The future of Tradition
    « Reply #10 on: October 27, 2012, 09:09:08 PM »
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  • I'm a single, young trad with a good amount of IT experience (about 7 years) and I  am having a lot of difficulty finding a living wage job. (35k+) No one is hiring.

    I am just trying to pay off my 10k of student loan debt so I can think about seminary or a monastery. But at this rate... it's never gonna happen. It's so difficult to find a good paying position.

    Regarding chapels social events. My SSPX chapel barely has any groups at all, I honestly can't even think of one besides the guys who do landscaping for the church. That's sad really. The FSSP parish on the other side of town has a much better social atmosphere and lots of group activities.


    Offline bowler

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    The future of Tradition
    « Reply #11 on: October 28, 2012, 09:07:55 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ascetik
    I'm a single, young trad with a good amount of IT experience (about 7 years) and I  am having a lot of difficulty finding a living wage job. (35k+) No one is hiring.

    I am just trying to pay off my 10k of student loan debt so I can think about seminary or a monastery. But at this rate... it's never gonna happen. It's so difficult to find a good paying position.


    Don't pay the loan for now. Go into the seminary.




    Quote from: Ascetik
    Regarding chapels social events. My SSPX chapel barely has any groups at all, I honestly can't even think of one besides the guys who do landscaping for the church..


    This is a big problem with the SSPX that I and many others have been trying to change. I think it has to do with the French influence of the SSPX. The French educational system since WWII, has been directed toward producing government servants, office workers, teachers and such. The French have no entrepreneurial spirit left in them. The SSPX hierarchy is preparing the young men in the same way in their schools. They are doing nothing to prepare the young men to make a living. The SSPX schools need to teach trades to young men at an early age. Parents need to do the same.A young man of 18 that has worked in plumbing, electrical, carpentry, farming, biology, accounting, business, law etc., since he was a child, will have a foundation to apply to many fields.

    The men in the chapels need to organize seminars to teach the children all of these things, hands on, building, fixing, real things the school or chapel needs. The modern thought that someone else will teach your children, and letting the children find work for themselves, won't cut it anymore.

    Offline bowler

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    The future of Tradition
    « Reply #12 on: October 28, 2012, 09:18:24 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ascetik


    Regarding chapels social events. My SSPX chapel barely has any groups at all, I honestly can't even think of one besides the guys who do landscaping for the church.


    Ask every man at your chapel (and any person in the world that you respect)what he does for a living, and how he got into it. You'll be surprised at how it happened. It will open up your mind to new horizons. Men love to be asked that question, and to talk about themselves.

    Watch the movie the Bird Man of Alcatraz with Burt Lancaster. The guy was a lifer,  A looser in every respect, then he found a baby bird during his the solitary confinement courtyard minutes. He went on to become the foremost world authority on birds. Had he not found that bird, he would have continued to be a less than nothing.

    Offline bowler

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    The future of Tradition
    « Reply #13 on: October 28, 2012, 09:24:49 AM »
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  • A young boy use to go help his neighbor with his hobby of doing body work on cars. When the young man finished high school he went to a trade school to learn more about body work. He never finished the trade school, seeing that they were not teaching him anything he hadn't learned already. He went to work in a body shop. He shortly thereafter opened his own little shop. Today he owns three shops each run by his children, all his children, boys, and girls, (body work, accounting, sales).

    If he had not had a neighbor that did body work, all of his children would be out of work, and likely living in another state.

    Offline PerEvangelicaDicta

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    The future of Tradition
    « Reply #14 on: October 28, 2012, 01:04:22 PM »
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  • Quote
    Thanks bowler, I was thinking about how family ties helped individuals succeed, in my head, but didn't write it down. I would also add, at least here in the US, cultural background helped individuals succeed. Willa Cather writes about it in her novels. Just as masons help each other succeed.

    I remember reading Catholic groups (guilds) were organized to help other Catholics, and at one time the SSPX tried to promote the idea.


    I'm new and learning the "culture and personality" of the forum, so I will naively ask why this post by padrepio received a thumbs down?


     

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