Catholic Info

Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: poche on July 07, 2018, 05:30:47 AM

Title: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 07, 2018, 05:30:47 AM
Santa Ana de Guadalupe, Mexico – As the United States calls out the National Guard and prepares to build new fences along the border, some migrants in this deeply Catholic area are seeking assistance – but not from some ordinary coyote or guide.
(http://www.banderasnews.com/images/spacer.gif)
They're turning to a saint.
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His name is Toribio Romo González, a priest whose rise to sainthood began in the 1920s, after he was killed during a Christian uprising in this central-coastal state of Jalisco.
(http://www.banderasnews.com/images/spacer.gif)
To many, he's known as a patron of migrants – a figure who, legend has it, has led to safety many who have braved the hazards of border crossings.


http://www.banderasnews.com/0607/nr-migrantssaint.htm
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: klasG4e on July 07, 2018, 10:14:03 AM
Welcome to Novus Ordo World where a saint is reported to help people break the border law of another nation, a law which is neither immoral nor unjust.  Strange story indeed, made even stranger in view of what has been reported ( http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-immigrants-saint-20140713-story.html (http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-immigrants-saint-20140713-story.html)) about him: "Unlike St. Frances Xavier Cabrini, Romo Gonzalez, who died a martyr at age 28, never paid particular attention to immigrants. In fact, in 1920 he wrote a play titled "Let's go north!" that warned migrants against traveling to the States. He worried that they would lose their values." Lose their values indeed!  Yes, the stories of men (and sometimes women) leaving their spouses and children behind in Mexico and ending up in adulterous affairs, drugs, and jail/prison are legion.  They have not only lost their values, but often their families as well.  (As for the spouse and children left back in Mexico, Guatamala or wherever -- they are often made more vulnerable to falling into serious sin without the presence of their spouse or father or mother.)

I can remember Francis detesting the thought of the U.S. building a wall when it was pointed out that the Vatican has an immense wall surrounding it that has been standing way longer than the U.S. has existed.  I haven't head about any plans to tear down the Vatican's wall. 
Title: Leonine Wall/Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: AlligatorDicax on July 07, 2018, 06:00:50 PM

I can remember Francis detesting the thought of the U.S. building a wall when it was pointed out that the Vatican has an immense wall surrounding it that has been standing way longer than the U.S. has existed.

Indeed, the latter wall is the famous Leonine Wall: the namesake project of Pope Saint (ahem!) Leo IV (A.D. 847--855) [*].

Which makes that wall more than a century older than the archæological site, in modern coastal Canada, that's proof of any settlement in North America by any Europeans, in this case a Scandinavian expedition seeking "Vinland" (~1000).  And 7 centuries older than San Agustin (1565): the oldest permanent settlement in the future continental U.S.A.

The Vatican Hill is on the wrong side of the Tiber to have been enclosed in any of the wall-building projects decreed or sponsored by Roman Emperors.

Alas, no later than A.D. 846, when the Mediterranean had become practically a Saracen lake, Saracen raiders [☪] had learned that there was wealth worth taking outside the imperial Roman walls: Wealth that had been accuмulated there by a successful religious organization, which had been free of persecution for 1/2 millennium.  Pope Sergius II (844--847) had no viable defenses against those Saracens when they rowed a fleet of boats up the Tiber that year, and sacked Old St. Peter's Basilica and St. Paul's Outside the Walls.

In the following year, Leo IV was elected to the Chair of St. Peter, and must've made some kind of promise--if not a formal oath--to the effect "Never again!"  So he led a hike around the unprotected perimeter of the Vatican, much like a Rogation Day procession, except that the location of his footsteps was recorded.  Then he decreed that a defensive wall be built along his footsteps.  Altho' Rome then existed in the "reduced circuмstances" of the mere Duchy of Rome, Holy Roman Emperor Lothair (r. 843--855) contributed substantially, as did cities and the proprietors of various properties in the duchy.  While the wall was still under construction, Saracens attempted another raid, but before they could enter the river, they were sunk or dispersed by a "tempest" (849).

The wall was completed in 852, and solemnly blessed by Leo.  There must have been substantial Grace from God speeding not only that project, but also the surprisingly numerous additional defensive or restoration projects of Leo, because the royal agreements known as the Treaty of Verdun (843) [×] had provided a period of peace among the royal contenders who were foolishly fighting over the succession and territory of the Holy Roman Empire.  This was wasting money & manpower urgently needed elsewhere, e.g., the empire's northern lands, which were also under attack, but from Vikings.  In the year after the wall was completed, the restraining power of the treaty faded away [×].

The 3rd time that Saracens attacked Rome (perhaps after Leo's death, the attack not being mentioned in the cited article [*]), they were defeated by Roman defenders.

-------
Note *: Horace Mann. "Pope St. Leo IV".  The Catholic Encyclopedia, vol. 9.  Robert Appleton Co.: New York, 1910. <http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09159a.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09159a.htm)>.

Note ☪: In ancient times, "Saracens" referred to (desert) bedouins, presumably ethnically Arabs.  By mediæval times, it referred specifically to Arab Muslims--practicing that unconvincingly alleged "Religion of Peace"--engaged in brigandage, piracy, and occasionally in more disciplined actual military operations.  Let's not forget that those operations were conducted mostly against predominately Christian populations and states, notably the Byzantine Empire.[♠]

Note ♠: Aside from all that, it seemed highly likely to this member of CathInfo that the eastern "Saracen Lake" was actually Berber-majority (Greek Mauroi, then Latin Mauri, English "Moors") instead of Arab-majority.  But trying to confirm that, this member was overwhelmed by an avalanche of unfamiliar names, which is not an appealing way to spend multiple hours on a summer week-end day whose forecast thunderstorms haven't yet arrived.  It does seem that the occupation of Sicily, which was begun at Mazara by "Moors" in 827, had originated from Tunis and Algiers.  Certainly, the Muslim conquest of the Iberian Peninsula (i.e., Spain & Portugal) had been carried out primarily by Berber Muslims, and despite the dynastic and ethnic in-fighting, Muslims had held most of that peninsula for most of a century by the time of Pope St. Leo IV.

Note ×: The Treaty of Verdun is far more than a sidelight on the projects of Pope St. Leo IV; it was a major event in the history of mediæval Europe, and in the shaping of modern Europe.  Alas, The Catholic Encyclopedia seems not to have any articles dedicated to the treaty nor, more surprisingly, to the Holy Roman Empire, nor its Emperors Lothair or (his son) Louis II.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: Truecharity on July 07, 2018, 07:14:33 PM
Attributing a moniker of a criminal nature to a saintly person, is just wrong.
Title: Re: Leonine Wall/Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: AlligatorDicax on July 07, 2018, 08:00:42 PM

I haven't hea[r]d about any plans to tear down the Vatican's wall.

It would be imprudent--if not downright foolish--to "tear down that wall",  given masses of alleged "refugees" entering southern Europe--including Italy--who are disproportionately young men, amazingly fit & trim and freshly clothed & shod, who look more like active-duty military on annual leave.  Yet sympathetic readers in the U.S.A. are self-righteouly led to expect to see women & children, obviously nearly starvation, and clothed in disintegrating rags.

It could be great fun to watch the twitter feathers fly if "Pope Francis" publicly makes an issue of the labor and other resources used to build the U.S. southern-border wall.  Because history records that the Leonine Wall--that wall around the Vatican--was built by Saracens who were captured during their raids, then put to work as slave labor, according to the customs of the times--even those of the Church.

I wonder if any of those captured Saracen invaders were ever "reünited with their children", or assigned a date for court, then released into the population they'd invaded, hmmm?
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 07, 2018, 10:54:14 PM
Welcome to Novus Ordo World where a saint is reported to help people break the border law of another nation, a law which is neither immoral nor unjust.  Strange story indeed, made even stranger in view of what has been reported ( http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-immigrants-saint-20140713-story.html (http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-immigrants-saint-20140713-story.html)) about him: "Unlike St. Frances Xavier Cabrini, Romo Gonzalez, who died a martyr at age 28, never paid particular attention to immigrants. In fact, in 1920 he wrote a play titled "Let's go north!" that warned migrants against traveling to the States. He worried that they would lose their values." Lose their values indeed!  Yes, the stories of men (and sometimes women) leaving their spouses and children behind in Mexico and ending up in adulterous affairs, drugs, and jail/prison are legion.  They have not only lost their values, but often their families as well.  (As for the spouse and children left back in Mexico, Guatamala or wherever -- they are often made more vulnerable to falling into serious sin without the presence of their spouse or father or mother.)

I can remember Francis detesting the thought of the U.S. building a wall when it was pointed out that the Vatican has an immense wall surrounding it that has been standing way longer than the U.S. has existed.  I haven't head about any plans to tear down the Vatican's wall.
If it is a saint helping someone cross the desert in safety then he is acting under the law of God, not the law of man.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 07, 2018, 11:00:45 PM
Attributing a moniker of a criminal nature to a saintly person, is just wrong.
Doing the Will of God is not criminal.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 07, 2018, 11:02:46 PM
The popularity of the priest has soared since he died in 1928. Many Mexicans who have headed north or returned home tell inspirational stories about being spared through St. Toribio's intervention.
(http://www.banderasnews.com/images/spacer.gif)
Luciano González López, 45, who returned not long ago to his hometown of Teocatilche from Denver, tells such a tale.
(http://www.banderasnews.com/images/spacer.gif)
Last year, he said, he and two other men were on their way to Colorado in search of work, when they got lost in the smoldering Arizona desert.
(http://www.banderasnews.com/images/spacer.gif)
They walked for nearly two days without water, he said, when suddenly they saw a shadowy figure standing next to what looked like an ocean.
(http://www.banderasnews.com/images/spacer.gif)
"It wasn't an ocean," he said. (They were, after all, in the middle of the Sonoran Desert.) "But the sight of this man next to an ocean gave us enough hope to follow him out."
(http://www.banderasnews.com/images/spacer.gif)
With tears rolling down his cheek as his son Benito put an arm around him, he went on:
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"When I told my wife back in Mexico, she responded: 'It was St. Toribio, the migrant-smuggling saint, leading you to safety. I had been praying to him for your well-being.'"


"Suddenly, everything made sense. It was a santo coyote who saved us."

http://www.banderasnews.com/0607/nr-migrantssaint.htm
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 08, 2018, 11:55:04 PM
Such stories – and such faith – have made St. Toribio's hometown a thriving destination for tourists and religious pilgrims. A few years ago, The New York Times described Santa Ana de Guadalupe as "once a dying village of 400 cattle farmers." Today, the remote town attracts hundreds, sometimes thousands, of visitors each week. Many are Mexicans living in the U.S. who are home for a visit. Many are migrants about to head north.
(http://www.banderasnews.com/images/spacer.gif)
A new, larger church is under construction. Street vendors do a brisk trade hawking everything from religious medals to pirated CDs, including one compilation of Mexican folk songs heralding St. Toribio's works.
(http://www.banderasnews.com/images/spacer.gif)
"He was killed years ago, but his soul is still very much with us today," said Juana Romo, a 79-year-old vendor who identified herself as a cousin of the dead saint.



http://www.banderasnews.com/0607/nr-migrantssaint.htm
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 10, 2018, 02:29:25 AM
Father Romo was killed on Feb. 25, 1928, by Mexican soldiers during the Cristero War, a popular uprising against the anti-clerical provisions of the 1917 Mexican Constitution. In 2000, Pope John Paul II canonized him and 24 other Catholics martyred in the war.
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"He was a priest with a sensitive heart, an ardent homilist," according to the Vatican's official Web site. "A lover of the Eucharist, he often prayed, 'Lord, do not leave me, nor permit a day of my life to pass, without my saying the Mass, without receiving your embrace in Communion.' "


http://www.banderasnews.com/0607/nr-migrantssaint.htm

I think that is a good plan, Lord do not leave me, nor permit a day of my life to pass without my going to mass, without receiving your embrace in Communion.  
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: klasG4e on July 10, 2018, 12:18:16 PM
If I saw a Mexican drowning as he was swimming across the Rio Grande to enter the U.S. illegally or one stranded in the desert after crossing into the U.S. illegally, I would try to save them as perhaps the so called "Coyote [unusual name assignment since it is the slang name given to one who illegally smuggles people across borders of countries]  Saint" would do.

After I did that, on the other hand, I'd try to notify "La Migra" (the border patrol) so they could take them into custody.  I have no idea if the "Coyote Saint" would do that as well, although I kind of doubt it.  In any event, the border patrol if they share the same patron saint (St. Michael the Archangel) as police officers could certainlly thank St. Michael for helping to apprehend those who are supposedly helped from being apprehended by the "Coyote Saint." 
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 10, 2018, 10:53:08 PM
If I saw a Mexican drowning as he was swimming across the Rio Grande to enter the U.S. illegally or one stranded in the desert after crossing into the U.S. illegally, I would try to save them as perhaps the so called "Coyote [unusual name assignment since it is the slang name given to one who illegally smuggles people across borders of countries]  Saint" would do.

After I did that, on the other hand, I'd try to notify "La Migra" (the border patrol) so they could take them into custody.  I have no idea if the "Coyote Saint" would do that as well, although I kind of doubt it.  In any event, the border patrol if they share the same patron saint (St. Michael the Archangel) as police officers could certainlly thank St. Michael for helping to apprehend those who are supposedly helped from being apprehended by the "Coyote Saint."
Both St Michael and Father Romo answer to the Queen of Heaven. The Holy Virgin is a mother to all her children.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: Cantarella on July 11, 2018, 12:37:06 AM
I can remember Francis detesting the thought of the U.S. building a wall when it was pointed out that the Vatican has an immense wall surrounding it that has been standing way longer than the U.S. has existed.  I haven't head about any plans to tear down the Vatican's wall.
(https://pics.me.me/pope-leo-iv-builithis-vatican-wall-to-fend-off-muslim-13179400.png)

(https://i.imgflip.com/zfxjx.jpg)
Title: Re: Leonine Wall/Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: Cantarella on July 11, 2018, 01:09:24 AM
It would be imprudent--if not downright foolish--to "tear down that wall",  given masses of alleged "refugees" entering southern Europe--including Italy--who are disproportionately young men, amazingly fit & trim and freshly clothed & shod, who look more like active-duty military on annual leave.  Yet sympathetic readers in the U.S.A. are self-righteouly led to expect to see women & children, obviously nearly starvation, and clothed in disintegrating rags.

It could be great fun to watch the twitter feathers fly if "Pope Francis" publicly makes an issue of the labor and other resources used to build the U.S. southern-border wall.  Because history records that the Leonine Wall--that wall around the Vatican--was built by Saracens who were captured during their raids, then put to work as slave labor, according to the customs of the times--even those of the Church.

I wonder if any of those captured Saracen invaders were ever "reünited with their children", or assigned a date for court, then released into the population they'd invaded, hmmm?
(http://www.nationalfront.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/immigration-invasion.jpg)
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 11, 2018, 02:04:20 AM
Some Mexicans said even more migrants will seek the protection of St. Toribio, as Americans step up efforts to curb illegal border crossings.
(http://www.banderasnews.com/images/spacer.gif)
Yet, few people here expect the border measures – from more troops to higher walls to costly night-vision cameras – to much discourage illegal migration, despite its risks. Last year, almost 500 people, most of them Mexicans, died trying to reach U.S. soil.
(http://www.banderasnews.com/images/spacer.gif)
And so, many people from across Mexico are flocking to this region, known as Los Altos de Jalisco, in search of a guide with a reputation for divine powers. Many maintain that only a miracle can help them overcome the growing array of obstacles.
(http://www.banderasnews.com/images/spacer.gif)
"The number of migrants coming here in search of miracles is growing and will only get bigger," said the Rev. Gabriel González Pérez, parish priest of the small chapel where the remains of St. Toribio are buried.



http://www.banderasnews.com/0607/nr-migrantssaint.htm
Title: Re: Leonine Wall/Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: JezusDeKoning on July 11, 2018, 11:26:14 AM
(http://www.nationalfront.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/immigration-invasion.jpg)
This will sound harsh, but I don't care: the non-white non-Catholics living on borrowed time there are not European. At all.

Open immigration is a cancer to Western society and a man like Mussolini or Franco is so desperately needed again over there. A country that puts God over country would deal with invasion swiftly and harshly.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: JPaul on July 11, 2018, 04:08:24 PM
Some Mexicans said even more migrants will seek the protection of St. Toribio, as Americans step up efforts to curb illegal border crossings.
(http://www.banderasnews.com/images/spacer.gif)
Yet, few people here expect the border measures – from more troops to higher walls to costly night-vision cameras – to much discourage illegal migration, despite its risks. Last year, almost 500 people, most of them Mexicans, died trying to reach U.S. soil.
(http://www.banderasnews.com/images/spacer.gif)
And so, many people from across Mexico are flocking to this region, known as Los Altos de Jalisco, in search of a guide with a reputation for divine powers. Many maintain that only a miracle can help them overcome the growing array of obstacles.
(http://www.banderasnews.com/images/spacer.gif)
"The number of migrants coming here in search of miracles is growing and will only get bigger," said the Rev. Gabriel González Pérez, parish priest of the small chapel where the remains of St. Toribio are buried.



http://www.banderasnews.com/0607/nr-migrantssaint.htm
Does St. Toribo  intercede for, and help those breaking the law? 
Title: Re: Leonine Wall/Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 11, 2018, 10:56:52 PM
This will sound harsh, but I don't care: the non-white non-Catholics living on borrowed time there are not European. At all.

Open immigration is a cancer to Western society and a man like Mussolini or Franco is so desperately needed again over there. A country that puts God over country would deal with invasion swiftly and harshly.
the majority of the Mexican people are Catholic  and friendly to Catholic Tradition. 
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 11, 2018, 10:58:14 PM
Does St. Toribo  intercede for, and help those breaking the law?
St Toribio intercedes for all those who pray to him and all those who love the Holy Virgin.  
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 12, 2018, 04:21:10 AM
"Father Toribio's philosophy was that hunger knows no border. That's why many migrants come here and pray to him. And then they ask us to bless key chains or pictures of Father Toribio before they put them around their necks."
(http://www.banderasnews.com/images/spacer.gif)
"They're putting their faith and lives in his hands."


http://www.banderasnews.com/0607/nr-migrantssaint.htm
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: Meg on July 12, 2018, 08:39:04 AM
"Father Toribio's philosophy was that hunger knows no border. That's why many migrants come here and pray to him. And then they ask us to bless key chains or pictures of Father Toribio before they put them around their necks."
(http://www.banderasnews.com/images/spacer.gif)
"They're putting their faith and lives in his hands."


http://www.banderasnews.com/0607/nr-migrantssaint.htm

Do you believe that a country has the right to legislate laws which protects its own citizens firstly and foremost?
Title: Re: Leonine Wall/Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: JezusDeKoning on July 12, 2018, 10:17:53 AM
the majority of the Mexican people are Catholic  and friendly to Catholic Tradition.
This is about Europe, genius.

The Muslims in the US are very, very well-educated, hard-working and not fundie Muslim. A lot of them are doctors, lawyers, CEOs and manage to assimilate pretty well. Most of them left the Middle East or North Africa before it got radical Islamist.

Britain has some of those, but the ones all coming here from the imploding Levant are all savages.
Title: Re: Leonine Wall/Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: Meg on July 12, 2018, 10:32:18 AM
This is about Europe, genius.


I'm pretty sure that the thread is about the issue of (illegal) migrants crossing the US - Mexican border.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: klasG4e on July 12, 2018, 10:38:59 AM
St Toribio intercedes for all those who pray to him and all those who love the Holy Virgin.  

This is an outlandish statement.  Can you prove it or even come close to proving it? 
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: klasG4e on July 12, 2018, 04:16:38 PM
St Toribio intercedes for all those who pray to him. 

Cf. "Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matt. 7:21)

According to poche, however, "St. Toribio intercedes for all [as in ALL] those who pray to him." 

First of all, we don't know what each of those prayers are for.  Nor do we know who each of the people praying to the "Coyote Saint" is.  (For instance, it may well be that some coyotes pray to him to assist them in their continual criminal operation!  After all, they would in a certain sense be on the same page as the ones they are helping to cross the border illegally.)  Even if you were to grant that each of the ones praying loves the Blessed Mother how does that translate into the Coyote Saint interceding on behalf of each one of them, especially if they are praying in essence for assistance in violating the immigration (border laws) of another sovereign country?

Finally, only God Himself determines whether or not one's prayers to a saint or angel will reach the intended recipient.  The Church has never taught that every person in every instance who prays to a saint or angel asking for their intercession will be heard.  God hears all, but that certainly doesn't mean a prayed to saint or angel necessarily hears all.  Even when they do hear our prayers it is still only through God's will (should He will it) that they be allowed to intercede for us. 
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: Truecharity on July 12, 2018, 04:42:01 PM
https://youtu.be/jTIO8jBWkZE
Title: Re: Leonine Wall/Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: JPaul on July 12, 2018, 07:14:07 PM
the majority of the Mexican people are Catholic  and friendly to Catholic Tradition.
but, when they run the borders they commit a criminal act. Crime is not the mark of a Catholic.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: JPaul on July 12, 2018, 07:15:03 PM
St Toribio intercedes for all those who pray to him and all those who love the Holy Virgin.  
Including those who deliberately break the law and sin?
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: JPaul on July 12, 2018, 07:16:40 PM
"Father Toribio's philosophy was that hunger knows no border. That's why many migrants come here and pray to him. And then they ask us to bless key chains or pictures of Father Toribio before they put them around their necks."
(http://www.banderasnews.com/images/spacer.gif)
"They're putting their faith and lives in his hands."


http://www.banderasnews.com/0607/nr-migrantssaint.htm
They are not coming here to eat, they are coming here to take advantage of the American taxpayer and break the law.
Title: Re: Leonine Wall/Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: St Ignatius on July 12, 2018, 07:41:15 PM
but, when they run the borders they commit a criminal act. Crime is not the mark of a Catholic.
No, but it has the "mark" of a communist...

This from the SOCIALISTWORKER.org... (http://socialistworker.org/2006-1/586/586_08_Borders.php)


Quote
For socialism to succeed in any country, the struggle has to be international, embracing the demands of the working class of all nations and spreading those demands from country to country. In the words of Marx and Engels, "Workers of the world unite!"

We deserve better than the system we live under today--a world where no one is "illegal," a world without borders, a socialist future.
Title: Re: Leonine Wall/Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: klasG4e on July 12, 2018, 09:11:10 PM
the majority of the Mexican people are Catholic  and friendly to Catholic Tradition.

The majority of the Mexican people are nominal Catholics.

I lived there, went to school there, and worked 3 summers in a very poor Mexican parish.  Most of the people by and large are decent hard working folks, but at the same time they are extremely secularized.  Most are cultural Catholics at best with the filth of the TV sewage lines coming into their homes on a daily basis.

As far as knowledge of the traditions and traditional teachings of the Catholic Church most are fairly clueless.  It is quite a pitiful/pathetic situation, but I think it's fair to say that it is about the same through all the rest of Latin America.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 14, 2018, 10:59:58 PM
Do you believe that a country has the right to legislate laws which protects its own citizens firstly and foremost?
Yes, a country has the right to legislate to protect its own citizens. For those who are not protected then we should call on the Holy Virgin to protect us.  
Title: Re: Leonine Wall/Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 14, 2018, 11:02:46 PM
I'm pretty sure that the thread is about the issue of (illegal) migrants crossing the US - Mexican border.
No, it is about St Toribio Romo.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 14, 2018, 11:05:51 PM
This is an outlandish statement.  Can you prove it or even come close to proving it?
The Holy Virgin is the Queen of Heaven. St Toribio would never do anything but for the Holy Virgin asking for him to do it. The Holy Virgin intercedes for all her children.  
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 14, 2018, 11:08:53 PM
Cf. "Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matt. 7:21)

According to poche, however, "St. Toribio intercedes for all [as in ALL] those who pray to him."  

First of all, we don't know what each of those prayers are for.  Nor do we know who each of the people praying to the "Coyote Saint" is.  (For instance, it may well be that some coyotes pray to him to assist them in their continual criminal operation!  After all, they would in a certain sense be on the same page as the ones they are helping to cross the border illegally.)  Even if you were to grant that each of the ones praying loves the Blessed Mother how does that translate into the Coyote Saint interceding on behalf of each one of them, especially if they are praying in essence for assistance in violating the immigration (border laws) of another sovereign country?

Finally, only God Himself determines whether or not one's prayers to a saint or angel will reach the intended recipient.  The Church has never taught that every person in every instance who prays to a saint or angel asking for their intercession will be heard.  God hears all, but that certainly doesn't mean a prayed to saint or angel necessarily hears all.  Even when they do hear our prayers it is still only through God's will (should He will it) that they be allowed to intercede for us.
So when St Toribio is sent from Heaven to help a supplicant then it is because God heard that person's cry for help and sent the Holy Saint to aid him.
Title: Re: Leonine Wall/Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 14, 2018, 11:13:27 PM
but, when they run the borders they commit a criminal act. Crime is not the mark of a Catholic.
Trying to save oneself from starvation is not a criminal act.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 14, 2018, 11:17:37 PM
Including those who deliberately break the law and sin?
There is no civil law that can legitimately require us to materially commit ѕυιcιdє or submit to starvation.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 14, 2018, 11:23:35 PM
They are not coming here to eat, they are coming here to take advantage of the American taxpayer and break the law.
Overall they benefit the American taxpayer by paying into a system form which they may never benefit.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: JPaul on July 15, 2018, 08:35:33 AM
Overall they benefit the American taxpayer by paying into a system form which they may never benefit.
There are millions of them on the social system who have never paid a dime into it. There are millions more who don't pay taxes at all. The U.S economy lost over 24 Billion dollars last year in overseas remittances.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: JezusDeKoning on July 15, 2018, 09:49:45 AM
There are millions of them on the social system who have never paid a dime into it. There are millions more who don't pay taxes at all. The U.S economy lost over 24 Billion dollars last year in overseas remittances.
As someone who still has family abroad, I see nothing wrong with that. If their currency is weak against the dollar, something like US$200 is a LOT for them.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: klasG4e on July 15, 2018, 03:50:39 PM
I'm bowing out.  My substantive Catholic reasoning is responded to or rather not responded to by silly pious one or two line platitudes by poche.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: JPaul on July 15, 2018, 06:34:21 PM
I'm bowing out.  My substantive Catholic reasoning is responded to or rather not responded to by silly pious one or two line platitudes by poche.

Speaking of the Wall, you can speak to poche all the day long and still, nothing gets through. He is impenetrable, we could sure use more of that on the border................
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 16, 2018, 07:56:07 AM
There are millions of them on the social system who have never paid a dime into it. There are millions more who don't pay taxes at all. The U.S economy lost over 24 Billion dollars last year in overseas remittances.
There are also millions who pay into the social security ssystem who will never qualify for benefits. 
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 16, 2018, 07:58:26 AM
Speaking of the Wall, you can speak to poche all the day long and still, nothing gets through. He is impenetrable, we could sure use more of that on the border................
Don't be so sure that I would not open the door for them. But then if I did that wouldn't that make their entry a legal entry?  
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: JezusDeKoning on July 16, 2018, 08:03:37 AM
Don't be so sure that I would not open the door for them. But then if I did that wouldn't that make their entry a legal entry?  
They have to actually do the arduous process themselves. There are some illegal migrants that do and rectify their status, but that's rare.

If they have children on U.S. soil, those children are U.S. citizens, which is fine.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 16, 2018, 08:19:17 AM
According to legend, it was in the late 1970s that migrants began telling stories about St. Toribio's coming to their rescue.
(http://www.banderasnews.com/images/spacer.gif)
One such tale, from the 1990s, is about a man named Jesús Buendía gαytán. He reported that he'd been walking several days in the desert, barely alive, when he saw a thin young man with white skin and piercing blue eyes. The man offered him food and water, spoke to him in Spanish, and even gave him a few dollars.
(http://www.banderasnews.com/images/spacer.gif)
The young man had one request: "When you finally get a job and money, look for me in Santa Ana de Guadalupe, Jalisco. Ask for Toribio Romo."
(http://www.banderasnews.com/images/spacer.gif)
Years later, the story goes, Señor gαytán visited Santa Ana de Guadalupe, in search of his Good Samaritan. He was said to be dumbfounded, on seeing a photo of St. Toribio, to recognize the face of his coyote.
(http://www.banderasnews.com/images/spacer.gif)

http://www.banderasnews.com/0607/nr-migrantssaint.htm
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: JezusDeKoning on July 16, 2018, 08:49:48 AM
Poche, my man, you are phenomenal at dodging any questions or rebukes. Go into politics, it would be good for people like you.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 16, 2018, 10:06:11 AM
Poche, my man, you are phenomenal at dodging any questions or rebukes. Go into politics, it would be good for people like you.
Would you vote for me?
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: JezusDeKoning on July 16, 2018, 10:41:56 AM
Would you vote for me?
My point is that politicians are excellent at dodging and deflecting questions. The honest ones are either offed or voted out or don't make it far.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: Cantarella on July 16, 2018, 11:19:01 AM
Quote
The majority of the Mexican people are nominal Catholics.

Whis is to say, Protestants, at best.

I don't really believe that these people even hold a true belief in Christ.

Sometimes, it seems even easier converting atheists and pagans to Traditional Catholicism, than nominal or cultural "Catholics"
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 17, 2018, 10:32:15 PM
My point is that politicians are excellent at dodging and deflecting questions. The honest ones are either offed or voted out or don't make it far.
Yes, but would you vote for me?
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: Truecharity on July 17, 2018, 11:27:31 PM
Yes, but would you vote for me?
Just for you Poche. I know you will not be able to grasp the explanation. However, can you refute this video?
https://youtu.be/jTIO8jBWkZE
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: Truecharity on July 18, 2018, 12:22:53 AM
Just for you Poche. I know you will not be able to grasp the explanation. However, can you refute this video?
https://youtu.be/jTIO8jBWkZE
Too much for you, Poche?  I get the fact you're a liberal. However, can't even comment on the meat and potatoes of the video. Wow.  Folks such as yourself are mentioned in the video: Once they cannot compute, they change subject .
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 18, 2018, 01:52:42 AM
Too much for you, Poche?  I get the fact you're a liberal. However, can't even comment on the meat and potatoes of the video. Wow.  Folks such as yourself are mentioned in the video: Once they cannot compute, they change subject .
I can't comment on it because I do not have access on the ability to hear it. 
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 18, 2018, 03:39:16 AM
The Catholic Church does not officially confirm such miracles by the saint along the border. Nonetheless, said Father González, some dioceses in Mexico and the U.S. are lobbying to have Toribio declared the official patron saint of migrants.
(http://www.banderasnews.com/images/spacer.gif)
Among the visitors to Santa Ana de Guadalupe on a recent Saturday was Alberto González, 23. He had returned to Mexico from North Texas, where he'd worked for three years in construction.
(http://www.banderasnews.com/images/spacer.gif)
Outside the chapel, the family munched on corn on the cob and listened as a local band jammed.
(http://www.banderasnews.com/images/spacer.gif)
Mr. González said his thoughts were already on his next journey northward. He plans a return to the Dallas area later this year.
(http://www.banderasnews.com/images/spacer.gif)
"For sure, it'll be the most difficult crossing," he said. "That's why I'm here – asking Father Toribio to guide me across, to perform another miracle."



http://www.banderasnews.com/0607/nr-migrantssaint.htm
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: klasG4e on July 18, 2018, 03:30:38 PM
Hope someone proves me wrong, but I think poche is going to have the last word in this thread no matter what.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: JPaul on July 18, 2018, 04:18:41 PM
Hope someone proves me wrong, but I think poche is going to have the last word in this thread no matter what.
A hopeless Liberal who thinks the Church and its Saints, are social justice warriors, like his mentor Francis.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 18, 2018, 10:27:40 PM
A hopeless Liberal who thinks the Church and its Saints, are social justice warriors, like his mentor Francis.
Like St Margaret of Scotland and St Elizabeth of Hungary
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 19, 2018, 12:39:51 AM
No one knows how Toribio Romo became the de facto patron saint of border crossers or those undertaking perilous journeys.  While the Catholic Church recognizes him as a saint, they do not recognize him as the patron saint of migrants, a role he has assumed seemingly spontaneously.  The Vatican’s official saint for migrants, ironically, is the first American citizen to become a saint, Mother Frances Cabrini, an Italian nun who helped Italian immigrants in the US in the late 19th Century.  As Mexicans have a hard time identifying with Mother Cabrini, Santo Toribio has filled the void and has been growing in popularity as the patron saint of Mexican migrants ever since his canonization.

http://mexicounexplained.com/saint-toribio-romo-mexican-martyr-angelic-coyote/
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: Meg on July 19, 2018, 10:32:11 AM
Like St Margaret of Scotland and St Elizabeth of Hungary

I'm pretty sure that St. Margaret of Scotland, in performing her charitable works, would not have encouraged anyone to break the law nor would she have supported them in doing so.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: JPaul on July 19, 2018, 07:46:06 PM
No one knows how Toribio Romo became the de facto patron saint of border crossers or those undertaking perilous journeys.  While the Catholic Church recognizes him as a saint, they do not recognize him as the patron saint of migrants, a role he has assumed seemingly spontaneously.  The Vatican’s official saint for migrants, ironically, is the first American citizen to become a saint, Mother Frances Cabrini, an Italian nun who helped Italian immigrants in the US in the late 19th Century.  As Mexicans have a hard time identifying with Mother Cabrini, Santo Toribio has filled the void and has been growing in popularity as the patron saint of Mexican migrants ever since his canonization.

http://mexicounexplained.com/saint-toribio-romo-mexican-martyr-angelic-coyote/
And therein is one of the modern problems. Mexicans are Catholic by and large, why are the Catholic saints hard to identify with?  Like everything else today, why must they have their own saints? When you become a Catholic you become part of something far beyond your own people. This is Francis and his church of the people. Saints are not there to help you illegaly cross the border and they do not protect those who deliberately put themselves in peril for reasons having nothing to do with serving Jesus Christ.  And there are illegals from all over S.A., as well as Mohammadans, Somalians, and any number of Black Africans, and Middle Easterners coming across our poorly managed borders.
Make no  mistake, in Francis's conciliar church of Man, a "saint" such may indeed help people to break the laws, but it is not so in the Catholic Church.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 19, 2018, 10:39:37 PM
I'm pretty sure that St. Margaret of Scotland, in performing her charitable works, would not have encouraged anyone to break the law nor would she have supported them in doing so.
No, but Jesus, Mary, and Joseph broke immigration law when they fled into Egypt.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 19, 2018, 11:55:34 PM
o who was Toribio Romo, the man?  He was born in the year 1900 in the small farming town of Santa Ana de Guadalupe in Jalisco a little ways off the main road leading from Guadalajara to San Juan de los Lagos.  He was from a very poor family, but early on young Toribio stood out from the other children for his intelligent and contemplative nature.  From an early age he wanted to go to seminary and become a priest but his family hesitated in sending him away.  In 1912 Romo entered the Auxiliary Seminary about 25 miles away in San Juan de los Lagos.  Ten years later he became a priest, one of the youngest to be ordained in Mexico which (http://mexicounexplained.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/SantoToribio3-196x300.jpg)required special permission from the Vatican.


http://mexicounexplained.com/saint-toribio-romo-mexican-martyr-angelic-coyote/
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 19, 2018, 11:56:17 PM
And therein is one of the modern problems. Mexicans are Catholic by and large, why are the Catholic saints hard to identify with?  Like everything else today, why must they have their own saints? When you become a Catholic you become part of something far beyond your own people. This is Francis and his church of the people. Saints are not there to help you illegaly cross the border and they do not protect those who deliberately put themselves in peril for reasons having nothing to do with serving Jesus Christ.  And there are illegals from all over S.A., as well as Mohammadans, Somalians, and any number of Black Africans, and Middle Easterners coming across our poorly managed borders.
Make no  mistake, in Francis's conciliar church of Man, a "saint" such may indeed help people to break the laws, but it is not so in the Catholic Church.
The holiness of the saints is for every day and everybody.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: JPaul on July 20, 2018, 09:00:47 AM
A Coyote is a smuggler of men, a man who illegally crosses borders with them for money, and is determined to violate the law.
A very poor name for a saint as, Catholic Saints would not be involved in such things if they are holy.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 20, 2018, 11:02:46 PM
A Coyote is a smuggler of men, a man who illegally crosses borders with them for money, and is determined to violate the law.
A very poor name for a saint as, Catholic Saints would not be involved in such things if they are holy.
The Holy Virgin sent him to help those who were in need. Who am I to question the Holy Virgin.  
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: Meg on July 21, 2018, 12:00:07 AM
No, but Jesus, Mary, and Joseph broke immigration law when they fled into Egypt.

Why do you believe that they broke immigration law when they fled to Egypt?
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 21, 2018, 03:56:47 AM
Why do you believe that they broke immigration law when they fled to Egypt?
They were wanted 'criminals.' They didn't ask permission.
Under Trump, Joseph and Mary would be placed in detention and the baby Jesus would be taken away from Mary and kept in a cage.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 21, 2018, 04:00:03 AM
By the way, here is something about St Toribio Romo that might surprise a lot of people;

  Toribio Romo has been described as a deep thinker and scholar, constantly challenged by matters of faith and always examining his conscience.  He was known for having a fine mind and gentle nature.  He also loved writing.  In an ironic twist, in 1920, while still in seminary, Toribio Romo published a play called “Let’s Go North!” a comedy about the perils of crossing the border to find work in the United States and what would happen to a man after spending too much time on the other side of the border.  Like many Catholic priests of the time, Romo discouraged people from leaving their small towns to seek work in the United States.  His one-act play consists of two characters, the Americanized Mexican Don Rogaciano who returns to his town with money and fancy clothes, and an attitude of superiority and worldliness, and Sancho, a smart-mouthed local who never left Mexico.  Don Rogaciano tries to impress the townsfolk with his command of English and his city ways, and denounces village priests as “money-grubbing retrograde obscurantists.”  In the end Sancho gets the best of Rogaciano by beating him with a cane, but Toribio Romo’s main message of the play can be found in some of the final words of the Sancho character when he says this:  “Take a good look at what becomes of the Mexican who goes north.  He ends up a man without religion, without a country or home… a coward, a feminized man who is incapable of feeling shame for having abandoned his responsibilities to his family.  Despite this, the roads are packed with Mexicans headed toward the United States in search of bitter bread.  Everywhere you hear the rallying cry:  ‘Let’s go north!’”

http://mexicounexplained.com/saint-toribio-romo-mexican-martyr-angelic-coyote/
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: Meg on July 21, 2018, 09:31:00 AM
They were wanted 'criminals.' They didn't ask permission.
Under Trump, Joseph and Mary would be placed in detention and the baby Jesus would be taken away from Mary and kept in a cage.

You said that they broke immigration laws. What laws were those exactly? Please be specific.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: JPaul on July 21, 2018, 10:55:44 AM
They were wanted 'criminals.' They didn't ask permission.
Under Trump, Joseph and Mary would be placed in detention and the baby Jesus would be taken away from Mary and kept in a cage.
How low you sink to equate the Holy Family to the brown hoardes of financial opportunists invading the Christian world today.
Our country is sinking under the weight of the financial burden and the rampant crime which these aliens who have no reasonable right or reason to be here, bring with them, and you would have the saints be in league with them.
You are definitely a member of Francis's church of Man.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: klasG4e on July 21, 2018, 11:24:46 AM
http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/ (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/)

Jesus was not an illegal immigrant or refugee
image: http://capstonereport.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Merson_Rest_on_the_Flight_into_Egypt.jpg
(http://capstonereport.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Merson_Rest_on_the_Flight_into_Egypt.jpg)

Jesus was not an “illegal immigrant” nor “refugee” as many Progressive Christians like Russell Moore of the Southern Baptist Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission (ERLC) claim. The use of such terms on a world of pre-modern states before the rise of nationalism is likely an abuse of hermeneutics by applying contemporary terms on the ancient world. However, if we are to apply such terms, we should make sure to apply the terms accurately. Both the terms “illegal immigrant” and “refugee” have specific meanings for scholars of International Law and Political Science—definitions which clearly do not fit Jesus or his parents. This essay briefly defines the legal terms and the historical situation in Judaea, Galilee and Egypt during the life of Jesus Christ. Applying the modern terms, we find that Jesus would be the modern equivalent of a Roman national moving between Roman provinces, and thus not fitting either refugee or immigrant categories. First, the genesis of the controversy.

The biblical data regarding the flight into Egypt provides the context for the claims about Jesus. “After they were gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, ‘Get up! Take the child and his mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until I tell you. For Herod is about to search for the child to kill him.’ 14 So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night, and escaped to Egypt. 15 He stayed there until Herod’s death, so that what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet might be fulfilled: Out of Egypt I called my Son.”[1] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn1)

Liberals claim this makes Jesus an “illegal immigrant” or “refugee.” Representative of these assertions are two separate offerings by Dr. Russell Moore. Moore claimed, Jesus lived as a “refugee in a foreign land, a land long hostile to his own.”[2] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn2) On a blog post, Moore claimed, “It’s horrifying to hear those identified with the gospel speak, whatever their position on the issues, with mean-spirited disdain for the immigrants themselves. This is a gospel issue. First of all, our Lord Jesus himself was a so-called ‘illegal immigrant.’ Fleeing, like many of those in our country right now, a brutal political situation, our Lord’s parents sojourned with him in Egypt (Matt. 2:13-23). Jesus, who lived out his life for us, spent his childhood years in a foreign land away from his relatives among people speaking a different language with strange customs.”[3] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn3)

Dr. Norman L. Geisler pointed out the Bible was a “prescientific” collection of writings, and a book written for every generation.  He cautioned against anachronistically imposing “modern scientific standards upon them.” (See: Are There Any Errors in The Bible? (https://www.namb.net/apologetics/are-there-any-errors-in-the-bible?pageid=8589952771)) It would likewise seem reasonable when dealing with pre-modern states and a multi-ethnic empire not to apply legal terms and standards arising out of our modern, post-Westphalian system.
Nonetheless, our progressive friends have done this, and it requires a careful examination of the terms and the political situation of the New Testament.

Was Jesus a refugee? Was Jesus an ‘illegal immigrant?’

There are many helpful things to keep in mind when discussing modern immigration and the ancient world. First, immigrant is best defined as an alien seeking entry to another state, where alien is defined by the United States Department of Homeland Security as (https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statistics/data-standards-and-definitions/definition-terms#permanent_resident_alien) “any person not a citizen or national of the United States.” Second, not everyone living in a state is a citizen of the state. This was true in antiquity and is even true in modern times. For the purposes of international law, these are typically defined as nationals. The 1948 UN Declaration of Human Rights declares, “Everyone has a right to a nationality.” According to one textbook legal case, “Nationality serves above all to determine the person upon whom it is conferred enjoys the rights and is bound by the obligations which the law of the State in question grants to or imposes on its nationals.”[4] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn4)

In essence, to be a national of a state is to be born under the sovereign jurisdiction of a power (this is obtained via either ius sanguinis or ius soli as determined by the law.)

Or, in the post-Westphalian world, nationality “was essentially a method of classification between those who owed allegiance and those who did not to a particular sovereign.”[5] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn5)

The IRS defines an American national a (https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/immigration-terms-and-definitions-involving-aliens)s, “An individual who owes his sole allegiance to the United States, including all U.S. citizens, and including some individuals who are not U.S. citizens. For tax purposes the term ‘U.S. national’ refers to individuals who were born in American Samoa or were born in the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands who have made the election to be treated as U.S. nationals and not as U.S. citizens.”  An alien, then is defined by the IRS in the same manner as the above DHS, “An individual who is not a U.S. citizen or U.S. national.”

A refugee is defined legally by international treaties. The best definition in International Law would be the United Nations Protocol on The Treatment of Refugees ratified by 146 countries in 1967. The Treaty declares a refugee to be a person, “owing to well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former habitual residence as a result of such events, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it.” (Read The Treaty Text (http://www.unhcr.org/3b66c2aa10.html)).

Key to this definition of refugee is “country of nationality.” A refugee is someone who must flee their country of nationality over persecution. It is important to remember that a person can be a national of a country and not a citizen as we noted in the IRS publication regarding current American law.

Due to the political situation at the time of Christ, moving from Bethlehem to Aegyptus would not make Jesus a refugee.  Jesus was born a common provincial or a peregrinus[6] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn6) within the authority of the Roman Empire. Jesus would have been the modern equivalent of a Roman National; he was under the sovereign control of Rome but was not a citizen of the state. The peregrini were persons not subject to the Roman civil law, but when under Roman authority were judged by the general law or what came to be viewed as the natural law.

“Since the civil law of Rome could not be applied to noncitizens of Rome, the praetor peregrinus took to deciding these cases on the basis of what might be called general principles of law. That entailed the identification of rules that were common to states in general (or at least were thought to be). Once these were identified, they would be applied to the dispute at hand. This corpus of common or general rules of law, emerging from the adjudications of the praetor peregrinus, became the ius gentium —the law of peoples in general.”[7] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn7)

The political situation in Judaea at the birth of Jesus

Professor A.N. Sherwin-White noted a “tendency” on the part of everyone from scholars to the public to treat Judaea as something outside the Roman Empire.[8] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn8) Perhaps, this results from the use of client kingdoms and odd quirks or Roman terminology, but in any case, Sherwin-White explained that Judaea met key tests for being part of the Roman Empire: “permanent military occupation, regular taxation and Roman supervision of public order.”[9] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn9)


The permanent military occupation began after Pompey’s campaign in Asia around 63 B.C. At that time, “Pompey intervened in a cινιℓ ωαr in Judea between Hyrcanus and Aristobulus; his brief campaign against the latter culminated in a three-month siege of the temple in Jerusalem and its capture.”[10] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn10) Roughly, the province of Judea, “included the territories of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, Dan, Simeon, and part of Ephraim. Under the Romans it was a part of the province of Syria, and was governed by a procurator.”[11] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn11) This would include Bethlehem and Jerusalem.

Rome dealt with Judaea by installing client rulers. This was not unusual for Rome. “Client kings played their part in the process of romanisation for, Tacitus wrote, it was a very old Roman tradition to use even kings as instruments in the imposition of slavery, ‘ut habret instrumenta servitutis et reges.'”  (From Tacitus, Agr 14, 2).[12] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn12) The settlement of how to treat a newly conquered province rested with the conqueror, in the case of Judaea that was Pompey, and was submitted to the the Roman Senate or people for ratification via a lex provinciae.[13] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn13) According to one commentary on Matthew, “Herod is king only because it pleases the Romans to have him rule over this troublesome region peopled by the equally troubling Judeans. Herod is a pawn used by Rome to maintain order useful to Rome. Jesus is born in an occupied land, a small outpost, on the edge of a mighty empire.”[14] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn14)

The usefulness for Rome was a strong leader and help in the Parthian War (see Josephus, Wars of the Jєωs 1.14.4). Herod’s loyalty to Rome was absolute, according to scholars, “The rise to power of both Antipater and Herod was predicated first and foremost on their unswerving loyalty to Rome. Both father and son were convinced that, following the conquest of Judea by Pompey in 63 b.c.e., nothing could be achieved without the consent and aid of Rome. This principle was inviolable, and it guided their actions under all circuмstances and at any price.”[15] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn15)

At the time of Christ’s birth, the Gospel of Luke declares that Jesus and his parents were under Roman jurisdiction. “There went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed” (Luke 2:1).  According to Schaff, this was a “head-tax” applicable to everyone in the Roman Empire who was female over the age of 12 and male over the age of 14. Stein in his Commentary on Luke points out two interesting points: that Jєωs were exempt from military service, but not from taxes. The fact that Jєωs were dependent on Rome for security and subject to taxation are important facts to establish the subjugation of the region to Roman political authority.

Chrysostom points out that it was difficult to leave home, but Jesus and his parents found a welcoming land of safety, “Isn’t this remarkable: While Palestine plots, it is Egypt that receives and preserves the One for whom the plots are designed! This is reminiscent of the patriarch Jacob, who also sought succor in Egypt, anticipating the coming of our Lord.”[16] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn16) Alexandria was a major location of Jєωιѕн settlement in Egypt, but it was by no means the only one as the collapse of the Jєωιѕн state detailed in Jeremiah revealed. “The narrative in Jeremiah states definitely that the large proportion of those who had rallied about Gedaliah after his death found a temporary asylum on the eastern borders of Egypt.”[17] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn17) This included the locations of Tahpanhes and Migdol, but there were other Jєωιѕн settlements know to Jeremiah and Ezekiel including the Jєωs at Memphis and Pathros. .[18] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn18)
When Mary, Joseph and Jesus fled Herod, they fled into another Roman province—Egypt, or as the Romans called it Aegyptus. Aegyptus was a province personally controlled by Augustus and administered on Caesar’s behalf by an appointed Praefectus Augustalis. With both provinces under Roman administration, and with a long history of Jєωιѕн settlement in Egypt (and likely the translation of the Hebrew scriptures into the Greek Septuagint happened in Egypt), it would appear to make the move of Jesus from Bethlehem to Egypt analogous to moving between parts of the European Union, such as moving from Poland to Portugal. It is worth noting both Judaea and Egypt were under Roman military occupation, subject to Roman tax policy and supervision of public order—all tests Prof. Sherwin-White identified as critical for determining status as a Roman subject.

Christians should hold progressives accountable for their misuse and abuse of the Gospel narratives to further their political agenda. Progressives like Dr. Moore and others use biblical, historical and political ignorance to promote their policies. Christians should reject such worldly and inappropriate use of the biblical narratives.

Simply, Jesus was not an illegal immigrant nor was Jesus a refugee.

Read more at http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#vmvoTxiVgygsQtbr.99
Title: Holy-Famly Illegals?/Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: AlligatorDicax on July 21, 2018, 04:00:42 PM
Novus Odo mole Poche is seriously discrediting himself (and the N.O. handlers to whom I and other C.I. members assume he is subject) by defending his position by making ridiculous claims that he himself must know are not true, that is to say: deliberate lies.


No, but Jesus, Mary, and Joseph broke immigration law when they fled into Egypt.

Really?   What "immigration law", exactly?

•  One of the most important features of (the) Pax Romana was the freedom of travel it allowed within the Roman Empire.
•  Both Judæa and Egypt qualified for that freedom, because they were unquestionably within the Roman Empire at the time of the Christ.
•  Syria (loosely defined back then as the land around Antioch) was conquered by General Pompey "the Great" (Gnaeus Pompēius) during 66--62 B.C.
•  Jerusalem was captured by Pompey, as crucial to Roman control of Judæa, in 64 B.C.
•  The government of Syria and those of other Roman-controlled lands in S.W. Asia were reorganized by Pompey, also during 66--62 B.C.
•  That reorganization included 5 lands being placed into the hands of local rulers as client kingdoms: Cappadocia, Galatia, Lycia, eastern Pontus (all 4 being in Anatolia), and Judæa (in Syria).
•  The client ruler of Judæa remained subject to the Roman governor (lit. "praeside") of Syria, e.g., Cyrinus for the census of Lk. 2:1--2.
•  Egypt came under control of Rome after Cleopatra, the last of Egypt's Ptolemaic line of rulers, committed ѕυιcιdє in 30 B.C. (that year included the ѕυιcιdє of Marc Anthony and the arrival of Octavian, whose victory at Actium had stimulated those ѕυιcιdєs).


They didn't ask permission.

More nonsense!

"Permission" from whom and for what, exactly?  See "Pax Romana" (above).


They were wanted 'criminals'.

And still more nonsense!

The Gospels make no claim that anyone was declared "criminal" nor "wanted".  What, exactly, would the Holy Family's "criminal" offense have been?

•  The Gospels provide very little information for this episode: The Holy Family's flight to, and return from, Egypt, appears only as a single chapter by Matthew; none of the other Evangelists even hint at it.
•  Herod could not identify "he who is born king of the Jєωs" (Mt. 2:2), altho' he was eager to discover the infant--or maybe toddler.
•  Luke, with his report instead of travel to Jerusalem for circuмcision and purification, at best complicates the traditional chronology.

Your unsupported claims above deserve to be dismissed by readers as a really blatant deliberate fabrication with no basis in the Gospels nor tradition.  It's so blatant that readers should feel freed to speculate unflatteringly on your motives for posting.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: Matthew on July 21, 2018, 05:04:41 PM
They were wanted 'criminals.' They didn't ask permission.
Under Trump, Joseph and Mary would be placed in detention and the baby Jesus would be taken away from Mary and kept in a cage.

Ah yes, the big bad Trump, who won't go along with the One Worlder (Globalist) goal of one world, one government, one race, one currency, one ecuмenical, man-made religion (hint: not the Catholic religion), etc.

You would be in agreement with all the droves of Hispanic voters who voted for Hillary, for "immigration justice" over more important issues like abortion, the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ agenda, and countless other moral evils.

In fact, the way you talk about Trump in a negative light, I have to wonder if you didn't vote for Hillary the Demonic yourself!

The whole idea that everyone has a right to come into this particular country, circuмventing Immigration and any laws to regulate it, is ridiculous. If God meant for everyone to come to the USA, He would have made them all born here!
We're having a miniature version of this happening within the USA itself: everyone is moving to Texas, because it has the best economy. But WHY does it have the best economy?

It's the existing culture that you find (found?) here:

- Christian decency, courtesy to others
- self sufficiency
- hard work
- common sense
- down to earth (two bulls can't make a baby)
- Republican (as opposed to democrat)
- Closely related to the previous, very business-friendly and low-taxation, smaller government
- No income tax

So what happens? We're the last one standing, economy-wise, and now all the lib-tards in California, Illinois, and other liberal failed states want to move here. But here's the problem: They're going to bring with them all the liberalism, liberal beliefs, and problems that come with putting those beliefs into practice -- which turned their own states into so many shitholes, and since they can vote here, they're naturally going to turn Texas into another shithole.

I can see the argument for limiting immigration.

Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: Cantarella on July 21, 2018, 07:24:32 PM
So what happens? We're the last one standing, economy-wise, and now all the lib-tards in California, Illinois, and other liberal failed states want to move here. But here's the problem: They're going to bring with them all the liberalism, liberal beliefs, and problems that come with putting those beliefs into practice -- which turned their own states into so many shitholes, and since they can vote here, they're naturally going to turn Texas into another shithole.

;)

(https://newsfeeds.media/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/billboard-on-a-texas-highway-tells-liberals-to-keep-driving-until-they-leave-their-great-state.jpg)
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: JezusDeKoning on July 21, 2018, 07:34:14 PM
There is no equating the Holy Family to (at the end of the day) criminals who cross borders. Ever. 

Shame on you, Poche. Go vote for Beto O'Rourke or something.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 21, 2018, 10:40:16 PM
You said that they broke immigration laws. What laws were those exactly? Please be specific.
Illegal entry
Entry while being pursued by the police
Entry without a visa
 
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 21, 2018, 10:47:48 PM
How low you sink to equate the Holy Family to the brown hoardes of financial opportunists invading the Christian world today.
Our country is sinking under the weight of the financial burden and the rampant crime which these aliens who have no reasonable right or reason to be here, bring with them, and you would have the saints be in league with them.
You are definitely a member of Francis's church of Man.
That is what some of the pagan Egyptians were saying. They were saying that their country is sinking under the weight of the financial burden and the rampant crime which these aliens who have no reasonable right or reason to be here, bring with them.
That the saints would be helping them is because Mary and Joseph remember what it was to have to cross a barren desert.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 21, 2018, 11:01:16 PM
http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/ (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/)

Jesus was not an illegal immigrant or refugee
image: http://capstonereport.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Merson_Rest_on_the_Flight_into_Egypt.jpg
(http://capstonereport.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Merson_Rest_on_the_Flight_into_Egypt.jpg)

Jesus was not an “illegal immigrant” nor “refugee” as many Progressive Christians like Russell Moore of the Southern Baptist Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission (ERLC) claim. The use of such terms on a world of pre-modern states before the rise of nationalism is likely an abuse of hermeneutics by applying contemporary terms on the ancient world. However, if we are to apply such terms, we should make sure to apply the terms accurately. Both the terms “illegal immigrant” and “refugee” have specific meanings for scholars of International Law and Political Science—definitions which clearly do not fit Jesus or his parents. This essay briefly defines the legal terms and the historical situation in Judaea, Galilee and Egypt during the life of Jesus Christ. Applying the modern terms, we find that Jesus would be the modern equivalent of a Roman national moving between Roman provinces, and thus not fitting either refugee or immigrant categories. First, the genesis of the controversy.

The biblical data regarding the flight into Egypt provides the context for the claims about Jesus. “After they were gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, ‘Get up! Take the child and his mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until I tell you. For Herod is about to search for the child to kill him.’ 14 So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night, and escaped to Egypt. 15 He stayed there until Herod’s death, so that what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet might be fulfilled: Out of Egypt I called my Son.”[1] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn1)

Liberals claim this makes Jesus an “illegal immigrant” or “refugee.” Representative of these assertions are two separate offerings by Dr. Russell Moore. Moore claimed, Jesus lived as a “refugee in a foreign land, a land long hostile to his own.”[2] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn2) On a blog post, Moore claimed, “It’s horrifying to hear those identified with the gospel speak, whatever their position on the issues, with mean-spirited disdain for the immigrants themselves. This is a gospel issue. First of all, our Lord Jesus himself was a so-called ‘illegal immigrant.’ Fleeing, like many of those in our country right now, a brutal political situation, our Lord’s parents sojourned with him in Egypt (Matt. 2:13-23). Jesus, who lived out his life for us, spent his childhood years in a foreign land away from his relatives among people speaking a different language with strange customs.”[3] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn3)

Dr. Norman L. Geisler pointed out the Bible was a “prescientific” collection of writings, and a book written for every generation.  He cautioned against anachronistically imposing “modern scientific standards upon them.” (See: Are There Any Errors in The Bible? (https://www.namb.net/apologetics/are-there-any-errors-in-the-bible?pageid=8589952771)) It would likewise seem reasonable when dealing with pre-modern states and a multi-ethnic empire not to apply legal terms and standards arising out of our modern, post-Westphalian system.
Nonetheless, our progressive friends have done this, and it requires a careful examination of the terms and the political situation of the New Testament.

Was Jesus a refugee? Was Jesus an ‘illegal immigrant?’

There are many helpful things to keep in mind when discussing modern immigration and the ancient world. First, immigrant is best defined as an alien seeking entry to another state, where alien is defined by the United States Department of Homeland Security as (https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statistics/data-standards-and-definitions/definition-terms#permanent_resident_alien) “any person not a citizen or national of the United States.” Second, not everyone living in a state is a citizen of the state. This was true in antiquity and is even true in modern times. For the purposes of international law, these are typically defined as nationals. The 1948 UN Declaration of Human Rights declares, “Everyone has a right to a nationality.” According to one textbook legal case, “Nationality serves above all to determine the person upon whom it is conferred enjoys the rights and is bound by the obligations which the law of the State in question grants to or imposes on its nationals.”[4] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn4)

In essence, to be a national of a state is to be born under the sovereign jurisdiction of a power (this is obtained via either ius sanguinis or ius soli as determined by the law.)

Or, in the post-Westphalian world, nationality “was essentially a method of classification between those who owed allegiance and those who did not to a particular sovereign.”[5] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn5)

The IRS defines an American national a (https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/immigration-terms-and-definitions-involving-aliens)s, “An individual who owes his sole allegiance to the United States, including all U.S. citizens, and including some individuals who are not U.S. citizens. For tax purposes the term ‘U.S. national’ refers to individuals who were born in American Samoa or were born in the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands who have made the election to be treated as U.S. nationals and not as U.S. citizens.”  An alien, then is defined by the IRS in the same manner as the above DHS, “An individual who is not a U.S. citizen or U.S. national.”

A refugee is defined legally by international treaties. The best definition in International Law would be the United Nations Protocol on The Treatment of Refugees ratified by 146 countries in 1967. The Treaty declares a refugee to be a person, “owing to well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former habitual residence as a result of such events, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it.” (Read The Treaty Text (http://www.unhcr.org/3b66c2aa10.html)).

Key to this definition of refugee is “country of nationality.” A refugee is someone who must flee their country of nationality over persecution. It is important to remember that a person can be a national of a country and not a citizen as we noted in the IRS publication regarding current American law.

Due to the political situation at the time of Christ, moving from Bethlehem to Aegyptus would not make Jesus a refugee.  Jesus was born a common provincial or a peregrinus[6] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn6) within the authority of the Roman Empire. Jesus would have been the modern equivalent of a Roman National; he was under the sovereign control of Rome but was not a citizen of the state. The peregrini were persons not subject to the Roman civil law, but when under Roman authority were judged by the general law or what came to be viewed as the natural law.

“Since the civil law of Rome could not be applied to noncitizens of Rome, the praetor peregrinus took to deciding these cases on the basis of what might be called general principles of law. That entailed the identification of rules that were common to states in general (or at least were thought to be). Once these were identified, they would be applied to the dispute at hand. This corpus of common or general rules of law, emerging from the adjudications of the praetor peregrinus, became the ius gentium —the law of peoples in general.”[7] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn7)

The political situation in Judaea at the birth of Jesus

Professor A.N. Sherwin-White noted a “tendency” on the part of everyone from scholars to the public to treat Judaea as something outside the Roman Empire.[8] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn8) Perhaps, this results from the use of client kingdoms and odd quirks or Roman terminology, but in any case, Sherwin-White explained that Judaea met key tests for being part of the Roman Empire: “permanent military occupation, regular taxation and Roman supervision of public order.”[9] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn9)


The permanent military occupation began after Pompey’s campaign in Asia around 63 B.C. At that time, “Pompey intervened in a cινιℓ ωαr in Judea between Hyrcanus and Aristobulus; his brief campaign against the latter culminated in a three-month siege of the temple in Jerusalem and its capture.”[10] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn10) Roughly, the province of Judea, “included the territories of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, Dan, Simeon, and part of Ephraim. Under the Romans it was a part of the province of Syria, and was governed by a procurator.”[11] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn11) This would include Bethlehem and Jerusalem.

Rome dealt with Judaea by installing client rulers. This was not unusual for Rome. “Client kings played their part in the process of romanisation for, Tacitus wrote, it was a very old Roman tradition to use even kings as instruments in the imposition of slavery, ‘ut habret instrumenta servitutis et reges.'”  (From Tacitus, Agr 14, 2).[12] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn12) The settlement of how to treat a newly conquered province rested with the conqueror, in the case of Judaea that was Pompey, and was submitted to the the Roman Senate or people for ratification via a lex provinciae.[13] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn13) According to one commentary on Matthew, “Herod is king only because it pleases the Romans to have him rule over this troublesome region peopled by the equally troubling Judeans. Herod is a pawn used by Rome to maintain order useful to Rome. Jesus is born in an occupied land, a small outpost, on the edge of a mighty empire.”[14] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn14)

The usefulness for Rome was a strong leader and help in the Parthian War (see Josephus, Wars of the Jєωs 1.14.4). Herod’s loyalty to Rome was absolute, according to scholars, “The rise to power of both Antipater and Herod was predicated first and foremost on their unswerving loyalty to Rome. Both father and son were convinced that, following the conquest of Judea by Pompey in 63 b.c.e., nothing could be achieved without the consent and aid of Rome. This principle was inviolable, and it guided their actions under all circuмstances and at any price.”[15] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn15)

At the time of Christ’s birth, the Gospel of Luke declares that Jesus and his parents were under Roman jurisdiction. “There went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed” (Luke 2:1).  According to Schaff, this was a “head-tax” applicable to everyone in the Roman Empire who was female over the age of 12 and male over the age of 14. Stein in his Commentary on Luke points out two interesting points: that Jєωs were exempt from military service, but not from taxes. The fact that Jєωs were dependent on Rome for security and subject to taxation are important facts to establish the subjugation of the region to Roman political authority.

Chrysostom points out that it was difficult to leave home, but Jesus and his parents found a welcoming land of safety, “Isn’t this remarkable: While Palestine plots, it is Egypt that receives and preserves the One for whom the plots are designed! This is reminiscent of the patriarch Jacob, who also sought succor in Egypt, anticipating the coming of our Lord.”[16] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn16) Alexandria was a major location of Jєωιѕн settlement in Egypt, but it was by no means the only one as the collapse of the Jєωιѕн state detailed in Jeremiah revealed. “The narrative in Jeremiah states definitely that the large proportion of those who had rallied about Gedaliah after his death found a temporary asylum on the eastern borders of Egypt.”[17] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn17) This included the locations of Tahpanhes and Migdol, but there were other Jєωιѕн settlements know to Jeremiah and Ezekiel including the Jєωs at Memphis and Pathros. .[18] (http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#_ftn18)
When Mary, Joseph and Jesus fled Herod, they fled into another Roman province—Egypt, or as the Romans called it Aegyptus. Aegyptus was a province personally controlled by Augustus and administered on Caesar’s behalf by an appointed Praefectus Augustalis. With both provinces under Roman administration, and with a long history of Jєωιѕн settlement in Egypt (and likely the translation of the Hebrew scriptures into the Greek Septuagint happened in Egypt), it would appear to make the move of Jesus from Bethlehem to Egypt analogous to moving between parts of the European Union, such as moving from Poland to Portugal. It is worth noting both Judaea and Egypt were under Roman military occupation, subject to Roman tax policy and supervision of public order—all tests Prof. Sherwin-White identified as critical for determining status as a Roman subject.

Christians should hold progressives accountable for their misuse and abuse of the Gospel narratives to further their political agenda. Progressives like Dr. Moore and others use biblical, historical and political ignorance to promote their policies. Christians should reject such worldly and inappropriate use of the biblical narratives.

Simply, Jesus was not an illegal immigrant nor was Jesus a refugee.

Read more at http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#vmvoTxiVgygsQtbr.99
The Jєωs in Egypt were considered to be foreigners in the land. Sometimes they were tolerated and sometimes massacred. Let us review what is found in Sacred Scriptures in the Gospel of Matthew;
13 After they had left, suddenly the angel (https://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=774) of the Lord (https://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=5217) appeared to Joseph (https://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=6477) in a dream and said, 'Get up, take the child and his mother with you, and escape into Egypt, and stay there until I tell you, because Herod (https://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=5721) intends to search for the child and do away with him.'
14 So Joseph (https://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=6477) got up and, taking the child and his mother with him, left that night for Egypt,
15 where he stayed until Herod (https://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=5721) was dead. This was to fulfil what the Lord (https://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=5217) had spoken through the prophet: I called my son out of Egypt.
16 Herod was furious on realising that he had been fooled by the wise men, and in Bethlehem (https://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=1846) and its surrounding district he had all the male children (https://www.catholic.org/shopping/?category=28) killed who were two years old or less, reckoning by the date he had been careful to ask the wise men.
17 Then were fulfilled the words spoken through the prophet (https://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=9674) Jeremiah:
18 A voice is heard in Ramah, lamenting and weeping bitterly: it is Rachel (https://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=9810) weeping for her children, refusing to be comforted because they are no more.

https://www.catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=47&bible_chapter=2

How does this not make Jesus, Mary, and Joseph refugees in search of some kind of asylum?
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 21, 2018, 11:02:48 PM
Ah yes, the big bad Trump, who won't go along with the One Worlder (Globalist) goal of one world, one government, one race, one currency, one ecuмenical, man-made religion (hint: not the Catholic religion), etc.

You would be in agreement with all the droves of Hispanic voters who voted for Hillary, for "immigration justice" over more important issues like abortion, the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ agenda, and countless other moral evils.

In fact, the way you talk about Trump in a negative light, I have to wonder if you didn't vote for Hillary the Demonic yourself!

The whole idea that everyone has a right to come into this particular country, circuмventing Immigration and any laws to regulate it, is ridiculous. If God meant for everyone to come to the USA, He would have made them all born here!
We're having a miniature version of this happening within the USA itself: everyone is moving to Texas, because it has the best economy. But WHY does it have the best economy?

It's the existing culture that you find (found?) here:

- Christian decency, courtesy to others
- self sufficiency
- hard work
- common sense
- down to earth (two bulls can't make a baby)
- Republican (as opposed to democrat)
- Closely related to the previous, very business-friendly and low-taxation, smaller government
- No income tax

So what happens? We're the last one standing, economy-wise, and now all the lib-tards in California, Illinois, and other liberal failed states want to move here. But here's the problem: They're going to bring with them all the liberalism, liberal beliefs, and problems that come with putting those beliefs into practice -- which turned their own states into so many shitholes, and since they can vote here, they're naturally going to turn Texas into another shithole.

I can see the argument for limiting immigration.
I didn't vote for Hillary.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 21, 2018, 11:07:32 PM
There is no equating the Holy Family to (at the end of the day) criminals who cross borders. Ever.

Shame on you, Poche. Go vote for Beto O'Rourke or something.
I don't know who this Beto O'Rourke is
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: JezusDeKoning on July 22, 2018, 12:42:22 AM
Quote
I don't know who this Beto O'Rourke is
The Democrat who thinks he can replace Ted Cruz in Texas in the race for Senate.

Heavily pro-illegal immigration for some reason. The man's name is Robert Francis O'Rourke and he acts like he was born at a quinceañera. Speaks perfect Spanish and has rallies near the border with a Spanish nickname. Born and raised in El Paso, so that's probably why.

He would be your perfect cup of liberal snowflake tea with a side of a transgender scone and a picture of Hillary Clinton somewhere.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 22, 2018, 02:32:25 AM
The Democrat who thinks he can replace Ted Cruz in Texas in the race for Senate.

Heavily pro-illegal immigration for some reason. The man's name is Robert Francis O'Rourke and he acts like he was born at a quinceañera. Speaks perfect Spanish and has rallies near the border with a Spanish nickname. Born and raised in El Paso, so that's probably why.

He would be your perfect cup of liberal snowflake tea with a side of a transgender scone and a picture of Hillary Clinton somewhere.
Is he anything like General O'Reilly or O'higgins?
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 22, 2018, 02:33:58 AM
To understand the saint’s life and death, we have to examine the times in which he was alive.  Toribio Romo lived during a dark and often unexamined period in Mexican history.  As a young priest Father Romo found himself in the middle of the Cristero War also known as the Cristero Rebellion or La Cristiada, a brutal internal conflict that lasted between 1926 and 1929 and pitted rural Catholic lay people and clergymen against the forces of the anti-Catholic, anti-clerical central government in Mexico City headed by President Plutarco Calles.  Calles sought to enforce the anti-clerical articles of the new Constitution of 1917 produced by the Mexican Revolution and enacted legislation to reduce the power of the Church.  This so-called Calles Law was seen as a continuation of the long struggle of Church versus State that dated back to La Reforma of the mid-19th Century.  Under this law restrictions were placed on the Catholic clergy and the power of the Church was further limited.  Popular religious celebrations were suppressed in local communities along with the number of priests allowed to serve in Mexico as a whole.  A few uprisings happened in 1926 and full-scale violence ensued by 1927, most notably in the countryside of the states of Zacatecas, Jalisco and Michoacan.  By 1927 all priests were prohibited from celebrating the mass and ordered confined to their residences or to relocate to urban areas.  Most clergy did not take part in violence, although many, like Father Toribio, defied the authorities and continued performing Catholic rites.  The Church hierarchy in Mexico tacitly supported the grassroots rebellion and the authorities in Rome condemned the Mexican government.  Curiously, two groups from the United States involved themselves in this war.  The Knights of Columbus, a service arm of the Catholic Church, donated money to the Cristero movement.  When the first donation of the Knights was announced, another group of Americans calling themselves knights – the Ku Klux Klan – offered President Calles $10,000 to fight against the Cristeros.  By 1928, Dwight Whitney Morrow, the US Ambassador to Mexico at the time became involved and eventually helped broker a truce between government forces and the Cristeros.  In the end, approximately a quarter million people died in the fighting, and Toribio Romo was among them.  On Friday, February 24, 1928, just a year before the end of the war, soldiers broke into the bedroom of Father Romo who had been taking an afternoon nap.  A few tense moments and two bullets later, the humble priest, who never took up arms or antagonized any uprising against the authorities, was dead.  He was 27 years old.

(http://mexicounexplained.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/SantoToribio4-204x300.jpg)

http://mexicounexplained.com/saint-toribio-romo-mexican-martyr-angelic-coyote/
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: Meg on July 22, 2018, 08:13:26 AM

Poche,

You didn't address my question about why you believe that the Holy Family broke immigration laws. I have to assume that you cannot provide any answer as to how they broke immigration law (because they didn't). You even said that under Trump, Joseph and Mary would be placed in detention, and the baby Jesus would be taken from Mary and kept in a cage. You were wrong to say something like that. 

I can understand that you have sympathy toward those who cross the Mexican-American border. However, you seem to be making a case that crossing the border illegally is acceptable, due to the supposed saint who has been thought to help the illegal border crossers. But are you quite sure that the Church teaches that it's acceptable to break the law? After all, it's not an unjust law. A government's first duty is to protect its citizens. It is not unjust to have laws against illegal immigration. 

Should our country allow everyone in who wants to come in? Wouldn't that mean hundreds of thousands of immigrants from every country Central and South America, Asia, Africa, and the Middle East? That would literally be many millions in total. Can we really absorb that many people?

There are Americans who are suffering. In the city where I live, homelessness is an epidemic, and the governor is being asked to declare a state of emergency because of it. Most of the homeless are White men. 

I saw a local TV news segment recently which featured a story about a woman who runs a little food bank out of her home. Some of the people who got food from her were interviewed. They were all White, and some were in tears when being interviewed, because they felt fortunate to have enough food for the week, and that someone wanted to help them. The woman who runs the little food bank, who is White, suffered from hunger herself as a child, and since she can afford it, she wants to help those who suffer from hunger. 





Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: Matthew on July 22, 2018, 05:11:36 PM
The problem is, we 6th generation whites living in America have no other country to go to. If the Illegals flood in here and change our country out from under us, where can we flee to?

My ancestors came here from Ireland and Germany -- legally, I might add -- but we've been here for many generations now. Going back to the 1800's. I looked up my Irish last name ancestry, and they were in southern Wisconsin for several generations -- starting at Great-grandfather -- before I eventually (inevitably) found the ancestor who came from Ireland, probably during the Potato Famine.

I and everything I know is American. If something happened to America, I wouldn't have a home. It's not fair for everyone to flood in just because they want more money, a higher standard of living, or whatever. If they want a country like America, why don't they apply themselves to fixing up their own countries, rather than ruining their country and then moving here to ruin ours as well!
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: JPaul on July 22, 2018, 07:05:22 PM
The problem is, we 6th generation whites living in America have no other country to go to. If the Illegals flood in here and change our country out from under us, where can we flee to?

My ancestors came here from Ireland and Germany -- legally, I might add -- but we've been here for many generations now. Going back to the 1800's. I looked up my Irish last name ancestry, and they were in southern Wisconsin for several generations -- starting at Great-grandfather -- before I eventually (inevitably) found the ancestor who came from Ireland, probably during the Potato Famine.

I and everything I know is American. If something happened to America, I wouldn't have a home. It's not fair for everyone to flood in just because they want more money, a higher standard of living, or whatever. If they want a country like America, why don't they apply themselves to fixing up their own countries, rather than ruining their country and then moving here to ruin ours as well!
Well said Matthew!  It seems that everyone can have their own country except for whites. All of these foreigners think that they have some right to come into white countries and dispossess us of everything that we have built and have, and you can see the international hand behind it all.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: JezusDeKoning on July 22, 2018, 07:32:48 PM
The problem is, we 6th generation whites living in America have no other country to go to. If the Illegals flood in here and change our country out from under us, where can we flee to?

My ancestors came here from Ireland and Germany -- legally, I might add -- but we've been here for many generations now. Going back to the 1800's. I looked up my Irish last name ancestry, and they were in southern Wisconsin for several generations -- starting at Great-grandfather -- before I eventually (inevitably) found the ancestor who came from Ireland, probably during the Potato Famine.

I and everything I know is American. If something happened to America, I wouldn't have a home. It's not fair for everyone to flood in just because they want more money, a higher standard of living, or whatever. If they want a country like America, why don't they apply themselves to fixing up their own countries, rather than ruining their country and then moving here to ruin ours as well!
Or first-generation immigrants from Latin America who came here in the 80s and worked their butt off to make a living in a new country like my own parents and many others. You'll never find more staunch opponents of illegal immigration than the people who had to work for it.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 22, 2018, 11:25:33 PM
The problem is, we 6th generation whites living in America have no other country to go to. If the Illegals flood in here and change our country out from under us, where can we flee to?

My ancestors came here from Ireland and Germany -- legally, I might add -- but we've been here for many generations now. Going back to the 1800's. I looked up my Irish last name ancestry, and they were in southern Wisconsin for several generations -- starting at Great-grandfather -- before I eventually (inevitably) found the ancestor who came from Ireland, probably during the Potato Famine.

I and everything I know is American. If something happened to America, I wouldn't have a home. It's not fair for everyone to flood in just because they want more money, a higher standard of living, or whatever. If they want a country like America, why don't they apply themselves to fixing up their own countries, rather than ruining their country and then moving here to ruin ours as well!
The Mexican and Central American people are predominantly Catholic. Wouldn't a more Catholic population be an improvement? 
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: klasG4e on July 23, 2018, 03:21:42 AM
The Mexican and Central American people are predominantly Catholic. Wouldn't a more Catholic population be an improvement?

No, a more nominally Catholic population would not necessarily be an improvement.  The corruption of the best (Catholics) is the worst corruption and sad to say most of the Catholic population both North and South of the border is quite corrupt in a lot more ways than one.

But let's keep things on track.   The OP was about a novus ordo saint.  I couldn't find any official canonization degree on him at the Vatican's website or anywhere else.  The scarce biographical information I did find out about him makes him appear rather unremarkable, especially for a priest in Mexico at the time of his priesthood.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: Viva Cristo Rey on July 23, 2018, 08:18:47 AM
The present generation that is coming to USA is coming for free medical, housing, food, clothes and cash.   And this is includes people coming from Muslim countries and Asians.  They aren't working.  

Daca equals brainwashed clueless immoral millenials    
They are pawns of the Democratic Party.  Dems want free college to further brainwash them.  

Sanctuary cities equal welfare cities where sex trafficking and drugs and exploitation by their own people. Some are working under table while working.  

Many have left the Catholic Church and started their own heretic Church.  The NO has special parishes with Spanish Protestant masses.  No 4 marks. 

Many leaves spouses behind and take new spouses and create new families.   Most children are in government brainwashing daycare called Reach. 

The generation x of women immigrants cook, sew , clean and work in fields and were good Catholics.  This Daca generation are lazy and protest our President when they should protest their own.  Daca are liberal feminists who can't boil water.  They want big money for little work. Dada males are gender brainwashed after they leave free college.  And Daca children become like American millennials who are Communist atheists.  Daca and American millennials especially the females have a handbook that they must wear pajamas and wear thick ugly glasses.

Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 23, 2018, 08:52:07 AM
No, a more nominally Catholic population would not necessarily be an improvement.  The corruption of the best (Catholics) is the worst corruption and sad to say most of the Catholic population both North and South of the border is quite corrupt in a lot more ways than one.

But let's keep things on track.   The OP was about a novus ordo saint.  I couldn't find any official canonization degree on him at the Vatican's website or anywhere else.  The scarce biographical information I did find out about him makes him appear rather unremarkable, especially for a priest in Mexico at the time of his priesthood.
He was a martyr. He gave his life for Christ during the Cristero war. 
Title: "Martyr"?/Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: AlligatorDicax on July 23, 2018, 12:00:57 PM

He was a martyr.  He gave his life for Christ during the Cristero war.

I'm sure that both claims would be made to honor every faithful Catholic--especially all clergy--who died as a result of that war in defense of the Catholic faith.  What qualified Toribio Romo González as a modernist saint, and as distinctly more worthy than other clergy who died?  It was under the Novus Ordo "churn 'em out" rules of "John Paul II" Wojtyła that he qualified, was it not?

Despite the articles cited in this topic promoting the alleged Novus Ordo saint being quite easily accessible to interested readers via an ordinary link from your posted URLs, you've refused to let it go at that, instead beating the drum by posting short excerpts of those same articles [#].  But you've been suspiciously uninformative about the exact circuмstances of his death.

Let's get real : Being shot to death by unidentified person(s) while he was sleeping in "his" "home" hardly seems to qualify for sainthood.

In particular, that means that he was not shot in a rectory nor monastery.  So he was obviously also not shot in a church or chapel while in the act of providing the sacraments to the faithful.

-------
Note #: So that their accuмulated text eventually seems to contain the entire articles for which you previously provided a fully operational URL.  It's antisocially spammy activity that's transparently intended to bloat your postings-count on CathInfo, adding to what you've already done thro' your other postings-count-bloating habits.  "Hero Member" my [donkey]!
Title: Re: "Martyr"?/Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 23, 2018, 10:30:33 PM
I'm sure that both claims would be made to honor every faithful Catholic--especially all clergy--who died as a result of that war in defense of the Catholic faith.  What qualified Toribio Romo González as a modernist saint, and as distinctly more worthy than other clergy who died?  It was under the Novus Ordo "churn 'em out" rules of "John Paul II" Wojtyła that he qualified, was it not?

Despite the articles cited in this topic promoting the alleged Novus Ordo saint being quite easily accessible to interested readers via an ordinary link from your posted URLs, you've refused to let it go at that, instead beating the drum by posting short excerpts of those same articles [#].  But you've been suspiciously uninformative about the exact circuмstances of his death.

Let's get real : Being shot to death by unidentified person(s) while he was sleeping in "his" "home" hardly seems to qualify for sainthood.

In particular, that means that he was not shot in a rectory nor monastery.  So he was obviously also not shot in a church or chapel while in the act of providing the sacraments to the faithful.

-------
Note #: So that their accuмulated text eventually seems to contain the entire articles for which you previously provided a fully operational URL.  It's antisocially spammy activity that's transparently intended to bloat your postings-count on CathInfo, adding to what you've already done thro' your other postings-count-bloating habits.  "Hero Member" my [donkey]!
His home was the parish rectory.
There are different aspects of his life and his holiness that bear separate postings. For example as a saint he is known for being the saint who is there when someone lost in the desert needs help. Most of the time he gives the help that the people need and want. Every now and then he may tell someone that they should go back, that it is not the will of God for them to go to the United States.
It is interesting that this saint, known for helping those who are lost in the desert, in life was against the migration of Mexicans to the United States. He even wrote a play making fun of the migrant who went to the United States and came back looking like a fool.      
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 24, 2018, 11:46:45 PM
Father Toribio Romo later became one of the 25 Mexican Martyrs of the Cristero War honored by the Catholic Church. He was later beatified and then canonized.  Since his canonization in the year 2000 great interest has developed in the saint and thousands of people flock to the tiny town of Santa Ana de Guadalupe to visit his shrine and to see where he spent his youth.  As with many shrines in Mexico, supporting businesses have grown up alongside the attraction to serve the multitudes of pilgrims who come each year.  Where there were no restaurants in Santa Ana, there are now 3, along with an ice cream shop and many other stores to cater to tourists.  It was said by one of the locals that Santo Toribio managed to accomplish in death what he couldn’t in life:  the local population is more permanent now.  The people of Santa Ana are not forced to go to the United States looking for work, rather, they now live off the steady income that the tourist trade provides.

http://mexicounexplained.com/saint-toribio-romo-mexican-martyr-angelic-coyote/

He is like Father Pro. Father Pro always said that he would like to win the lottery. today the location where he was put to death is now the headquarters of the Mexican lottery,
 :laugh1: :laugh1: :laugh1: 
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: Meg on July 25, 2018, 10:29:58 AM
Father Toribio Romo later became one of the 25 Mexican Martyrs of the Cristero War honored by the Catholic Church. He was later beatified and then canonized.  Since his canonization in the year 2000 great interest has developed in the saint and thousands of people flock to the tiny town of Santa Ana de Guadalupe to visit his shrine and to see where he spent his youth.  As with many shrines in Mexico, supporting businesses have grown up alongside the attraction to serve the multitudes of pilgrims who come each year.  Where there were no restaurants in Santa Ana, there are now 3, along with an ice cream shop and many other stores to cater to tourists.  It was said by one of the locals that Santo Toribio managed to accomplish in death what he couldn’t in life:  the local population is more permanent now.  The people of Santa Ana are not forced to go to the United States looking for work, rather, they now live off the steady income that the tourist trade provides.

http://mexicounexplained.com/saint-toribio-romo-mexican-martyr-angelic-coyote/

He is like Father Pro. Father Pro always said that he would like to win the lottery. today the location where he was put to death is now the headquarters of the Mexican lottery,
 :laugh1: :laugh1: :laugh1:

How is the Cristeros War in any sense related to the problem of migrants trying to get to the U.S. illegally?
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: JPaul on July 25, 2018, 07:50:16 PM
How is the Cristeros War in any sense related to the problem of migrants trying to get to the U.S. illegally?
It isn't Meg. Liberals just see the entirety of life through the lens of social justice and feelings, and sadly they have to drag religion and the saints into it, whether they are relevant or not.
Borders closed, send them home!
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 25, 2018, 10:59:55 PM
How is the Cristeros War in any sense related to the problem of migrants trying to get to the U.S. illegally?
This thread is intended to be about St Toribio Romo.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 26, 2018, 05:33:35 AM
How is the Cristeros War in any sense related to the problem of migrants trying to get to the U.S. illegally?
Many people fled Mexico during the Cristeros war and entered the United States without docuмentation.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 26, 2018, 05:34:40 AM
The official saint statue of Toribio Romo went on tour to various Mexican-American parishes in California in 2013.  The statue includes a relic of the saint, a piece of Romo’s ankle bone, encased in glass affixed to the torso of the statue.  People flocked to Indio, Hawthorn, Reseda and other cities to catch a glimpse of the saint, to thank him or to ask for a miracle.  The traveling saint proved more popular than the Church could have imagined with thousands of pilgrims showing up at events.


http://mexicounexplained.com/saint-toribio-romo-mexican-martyr-angelic-coyote/
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: Meg on July 26, 2018, 10:19:26 AM
Many people fled Mexico during the Cristeros war and entered the United States without docuмentation.


How do you know that a lot of people fled Mexico and entered the U.S. illegally at that time? 
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: Meg on July 26, 2018, 11:32:50 AM

How do you know that a lot of people fled Mexico and entered the U.S. illegally at that time?

Well, I found an answer to my question. It seems that a great many Mexicans did indeed flee to the U.S. at that time.

However, I found several websites that show that Toribio Romo was adamantly opposed to Mexicans going to the U.S. A distant relative of his (second cousin, once removed) wrote an article for Texas Monthly in 2010, after doing a lot of research about his cousin, Fr. Toribio Romo.

This cousin tells a different side of the story of Fr. Toribio Romo. The Texas Monthly article describes Fr. Toribio Romo's opposition to his parishioners going to the U.S.; and in fact, Father had even written a one-act play, called "Let's Go North!" in which he warned against going north to the U.S.

Here's his description of Fr. Toribio Romo's play:

"If you betray your country and go north, Toribio's play warned its Mexican audience, you might come back as a "rooster hen that neither crows no lays eggs." Or worse, a Protestant. Take a look at what becomes of the Mexican who goes north, Sancho says at the end of the play. He ends up a man without a religion, without a country or home....a coward, an afeminado who is incapable of feeling shame for having abandoned responsibilities to his family. Despite this the roads are packed with Mexicans headed towards the United States, in search of bitter bread. Everywhere you hear the rallying cry - "Let's go north!" "

The author of the article says that Fr. Toribio Romo did everything he could to keep his parishioners in Mexico from leaving home.

https://www.texasmonthly.com/articles/my-tio-the-saint/
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: Last Tradhican on July 26, 2018, 11:59:55 AM
Well, I found an answer to my question. It seems that a great many Mexicans did indeed flee to the U.S. at that time.

However, I found several websites that show that Toribio Romo was adamantly opposed to Mexicans going to the U.S. A distant relative of his (second cousin, once removed) wrote an article for Texas Monthly in 2010, after doing a lot of research about his cousin, Fr. Toribio Romo.

This cousin tells a different side of the story of Fr. Toribio Romo. The Texas Monthly article describes Fr. Toribio Romo's opposition to his parishioners going to the U.S.; and in fact, Father had even written a one-act play, called "Let's Go North!" in which he warned against going north to the U.S.

Here's his description of Fr. Toribio Romo's play:

"If you betray your country and go north, Toribio's play warned its Mexican audience, you might come back as a "rooster hen that neither crows no lays eggs." Or worse, a Protestant. Take a look at what becomes of the Mexican who goes north, Sancho says at the end of the play. He ends up a man without a religion, without a country or home....a coward, an afeminado who is incapable of feeling shame for having abandoned responsibilities to his family. Despite this the roads are packed with Mexicans headed towards the United States, in search of bitter bread. Everywhere you hear the rallying cry - "Let's go north!" "

The author of the article says that Fr. Toribio Romo did everything he could to keep his parishioners in Mexico from leaving home.

https://www.texasmonthly.com/articles/my-tio-the-saint/
Good quick find Meg. Well, there you go, another JPII politically correct "saint",  "the coyote saint", is shown to be an invention. (In 2000, "Pope" John Paul II canonized him and 24 other Catholics martyred in the war.)
(http://www.banderasnews.com/images/spacer.gif)
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: Last Tradhican on July 26, 2018, 12:03:54 PM
Here's his description of Fr. Toribio Romo's play:

"If you betray your country and go north, Toribio's play warned its Mexican audience, you might come back as a "rooster hen that neither crows no lays eggs." Or worse, a Protestant. Take a look at what becomes of the Mexican who goes north, Sancho says at the end of the play. He ends up a man without a religion, without a country or home....a coward, an afeminado ( an effeminate)  who is incapable of feeling shame for having abandoned responsibilities to his family. 

The author of the article says that Fr. Toribio Romo did everything he could to keep his parishioners in Mexico from leaving home.

https://www.texasmonthly.com/articles/my-tio-the-saint/
Everything he said is true. 
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: Matthew on July 26, 2018, 12:52:48 PM
Many people fled Mexico during the Cristeros war and entered the United States without docuмentation.

And the criminals (and they are all 100% criminals) entering the US illegally today are suffering armed persecution for their Catholic beliefs? I don't think so.

They want a comfy life and more luxuries. They usually fall away from the Faith shortly after coming here, too.

But unlike LEGAL immigrants in the past, such as those from Europe:

1. The illegal Mexican immigrants choose to break the law
2. They want no part of America or being American except for the money they can make here. They want to bring Mexico with them. If enough of them come, they will turn American into Mexico part 2. The European LEGAL immigrants, on the other hand, were willing to assimilate. They learned and spoke English for example. They didn't try to change the country they moved to.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 26, 2018, 03:51:44 PM
Re-posted from another thread.  FACT CHECK:  If immigrants try to come into the US at the designated "ports of entry" their families will not be split up.  

Most try to avoid the "ports of entry" for obvious reasons...because they have a criminal history and don't want to get caught (and they bring unrelated (probably kidnapped) children with them, as a "cover story" to say they are travelling with their "family").


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSFS3q-ENUM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSFS3q-ENUM)


Title: Re: Poche's bishop
Post by: St Ignatius on July 26, 2018, 09:52:01 PM


Italian Bishop: I Would ‘Turn All Churches into Mosques’ to Save Migrants
(https://media.breitbart.com/media/2018/07/Muslims-Rome-640x480.png)

24 Jul 2018

3,121 (https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/07/24/italian-bishop-i-would-turn-all-churches-into-mosques-to-save-migrants/#disqus_thread)
[size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}]
ROME — An Italian bishop has said that he would be willing to see an end to Christianity and the dominion of Islam if it meant saving migrants’ lives, Italian media reported Monday.
“Morally and as a man of faith I would be willing to turn all churches into mosques if it were useful to the cause and if it helped to save the lives of poor and unhappy men and women, because Christ did not come to earth to build churches but to help men regardless of race, religion, or nationality,”said (https://www.agi.it/blog-italia/il-papa-pop/matteo_salvini_monsignor_nogaro-4191315/post/2018-07-23/) the former bishop of Caserta, Raffaele Nogaro, earlier this month.


“And instead there are politicians who in their speeches continue to preach of deportations and the worst thing is that they do it with the crown and the rosary in hand and taking the name of God in vain, a very serious sin,” Nogaro said, in reference (http://www.ilgiornale.it/news/cronache/vescovo-nogaro-moschee-posto-chiese-salvare-vite-1552130.html) to a famous image of Interior Minister Matteo with the rosary in hand.
During the campaign (http://catholicherald.co.uk/issues/june-15th-2018/italy-is-now-goverened-by-rosary-wielding-populists-but-will-it-last/) leading up to the March 4 elections, Salvini, the 45-year-old leader of the League party, waved a rosary and swore on the Christian Gospels and the Italian constitution while addressing a huge rally in front of the Milan Cathedral.

“I swear to be faithful to my people, 60 million Italians, I swear with honesty and courage to apply the Italian constitution, Salvini said, “respecting the teachings contained in these Holy Gospels. Will you swear together with me?”
Bishop Nogaro is on the cutting edge of a clerical movement to oppose Italy’s populist government, especially regarding its efforts to curb the illegal immigration that has run rampant in the country since 2014. For this group of prelates and priests, Matteo Salvini — despite his Catholic faith — is the personification of everything evil about the new government, with one priest going so far as to call (https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/07/24/italian-priest-says-anti-immigration-matteo-salvini-antichrist/) him “the antichrist.”
This movement, despite moral support that goes all the way to the top with Pope Francis, has begun creating a divide between rank-and-file Catholics and the hierarchy. In a major poll earlier this month, Salvini turned out to be the mosttrusted (https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/07/24/italian-priest-says-anti-immigration-matteo-salvini-antichrist/) politician in this predominantly Catholic nation.
When Salvini denied permission to debark to the NGO vessel Aquarius that was carrying hundreds of African migrants (https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/07/04/italian-church-faces-growing-divide-between-prelates-people-immigration/) in late June, the Italian bishops were among those protesting most loudly.

“It is Jesus coming to us on a vessel, he is in the man or child who drowns, it is Jesus who fishes through the garbage in search of a little food,” said Sicilian Cardinal Francesco Montenegro in a homily shortly afterward.
Montenegro blamed efforts to curb mass migration on callousness and indifference, suggesting that a certain breed of Christian “creates the poor and then doesn’t want them because they are irksome and lets them die.”
The more the position of the Church hierarchy seems to lean toward unchecked immigration — despite the lack of grounds for this in Catholic doctrine — the more a substantial portion of the flock is pushing back to retake national sovereignty.
Follow Thomas D. Williams on Twitter 


Source (https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/07/24/italian-bishop-i-would-turn-all-churches-into-mosques-to-save-migrants/)[/font][/font][/size]
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 26, 2018, 10:46:46 PM
Good quick find Meg. Well, there you go, another JPII politically correct "saint",  "the coyote saint", is shown to be an invention. (In 2000, "Pope" John Paul II canonized him and 24 other Catholics martyred in the war.)
(http://www.banderasnews.com/images/spacer.gif)
When we live in htis life we see things as man sees them. When we enter into eternity we will see things as God sees them. 
Title: Re: Poche's bishop
Post by: poche on July 26, 2018, 10:47:48 PM

Italian Bishop: I Would ‘Turn All Churches into Mosques’ to Save Migrants
(https://media.breitbart.com/media/2018/07/Muslims-Rome-640x480.png)

24 Jul 2018

3,121 (https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/07/24/italian-bishop-i-would-turn-all-churches-into-mosques-to-save-migrants/#disqus_thread)
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ROME — An Italian bishop has said that he would be willing to see an end to Christianity and the dominion of Islam if it meant saving migrants’ lives, Italian media reported Monday.
“Morally and as a man of faith I would be willing to turn all churches into mosques if it were useful to the cause and if it helped to save the lives of poor and unhappy men and women, because Christ did not come to earth to build churches but to help men regardless of race, religion, or nationality,”said (https://www.agi.it/blog-italia/il-papa-pop/matteo_salvini_monsignor_nogaro-4191315/post/2018-07-23/) the former bishop of Caserta, Raffaele Nogaro, earlier this month.


“And instead there are politicians who in their speeches continue to preach of deportations and the worst thing is that they do it with the crown and the rosary in hand and taking the name of God in vain, a very serious sin,” Nogaro said, in reference (http://www.ilgiornale.it/news/cronache/vescovo-nogaro-moschee-posto-chiese-salvare-vite-1552130.html) to a famous image of Interior Minister Matteo with the rosary in hand.
During the campaign (http://catholicherald.co.uk/issues/june-15th-2018/italy-is-now-goverened-by-rosary-wielding-populists-but-will-it-last/) leading up to the March 4 elections, Salvini, the 45-year-old leader of the League party, waved a rosary and swore on the Christian Gospels and the Italian constitution while addressing a huge rally in front of the Milan Cathedral.

“I swear to be faithful to my people, 60 million Italians, I swear with honesty and courage to apply the Italian constitution, Salvini said, “respecting the teachings contained in these Holy Gospels. Will you swear together with me?”
Bishop Nogaro is on the cutting edge of a clerical movement to oppose Italy’s populist government, especially regarding its efforts to curb the illegal immigration that has run rampant in the country since 2014. For this group of prelates and priests, Matteo Salvini — despite his Catholic faith — is the personification of everything evil about the new government, with one priest going so far as to call (https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/07/24/italian-priest-says-anti-immigration-matteo-salvini-antichrist/) him “the antichrist.”
This movement, despite moral support that goes all the way to the top with Pope Francis, has begun creating a divide between rank-and-file Catholics and the hierarchy. In a major poll earlier this month, Salvini turned out to be the mosttrusted (https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/07/24/italian-priest-says-anti-immigration-matteo-salvini-antichrist/) politician in this predominantly Catholic nation.
When Salvini denied permission to debark to the NGO vessel Aquarius that was carrying hundreds of African migrants (https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/07/04/italian-church-faces-growing-divide-between-prelates-people-immigration/) in late June, the Italian bishops were among those protesting most loudly.

“It is Jesus coming to us on a vessel, he is in the man or child who drowns, it is Jesus who fishes through the garbage in search of a little food,” said Sicilian Cardinal Francesco Montenegro in a homily shortly afterward.
Montenegro blamed efforts to curb mass migration on callousness and indifference, suggesting that a certain breed of Christian “creates the poor and then doesn’t want them because they are irksome and lets them die.”
The more the position of the Church hierarchy seems to lean toward unchecked immigration — despite the lack of grounds for this in Catholic doctrine — the more a substantial portion of the flock is pushing back to retake national sovereignty.
Follow Thomas D. Williams on Twitter


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I recommend teaching the catechism so that the mosques will turn into churches.  
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: JezusDeKoning on July 27, 2018, 07:30:53 AM
You equated the Holy Family with illegal immigration, blasphemy at its highest, so any opinion you have about the Muslims in Italy is irrelevant.

For the record, Muslims don't belong in Italy. They should be stripped of citizenship and deported or sent away to a ghetto or camp, away from the European populace that they're polluting. 

Nor do the illegal immigrants belong here. They committed a crime, the Holy Family committed no sin.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: Neil Obstat on July 28, 2018, 02:36:46 AM
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(https://i.imgflip.com/2es9po.jpg)                            
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 28, 2018, 11:14:28 PM
You equated the Holy Family with illegal immigration, blasphemy at its highest, so any opinion you have about the Muslims in Italy is irrelevant.

For the record, Muslims don't belong in Italy. They should be stripped of citizenship and deported or sent away to a ghetto or camp, away from the European populace that they're polluting.

Nor do the illegal immigrants belong here. They committed a crime, the Holy Family committed no sin.
I think that the Muslims of Europe need to be taught the catechism and brought into the Church, then guess what, no more Muslims in Europe.
  
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: St Ignatius on July 28, 2018, 11:47:01 PM
I think that the Muslims of Europe need to be taught the catechism and brought into the Church, then guess what, no more Muslims in Europe.
  

I agree...

(http://western-civilisation.com/Images/uploaded/crusades221.jpg)
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: Neil Obstat on July 29, 2018, 05:24:16 AM
I think that the Muslims of Europe need to be taught the catechism and brought into the Church, then guess what, no more Muslims in Europe.
  
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You try teach a Moslem catechism then guess what, they choppa offa you head. Duuuh.  :fryingpan:

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Maybe you would enjoy this fart fest, a poche party! 
(https://media.breitbart.com/media/2018/07/Muslims-Rome-640x480.png)                                           
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: Neil Obstat on July 29, 2018, 05:27:28 AM
I agree...

(http://western-civilisation.com/Images/uploaded/crusades221.jpg)
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Hey wait a minute! That man on the horse isn't teaching the nice Mohammedan catechism! What the ......  :confused:
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: OHCA on July 29, 2018, 08:16:48 AM
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You try teach a Moslem catechism then guess what, they choppa offa you head. Duuuh.  :fryingpan:

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Maybe you would enjoy this fart fest, a poche party!
(https://media.breitbart.com/media/2018/07/Muslims-Rome-640x480.png)                                          
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Is that a pic from Assisi?
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: OHCA on July 29, 2018, 08:18:30 AM
I think that the Muslims of Europe need to be taught the catechism and brought into the Church, then guess what, no more Muslims in Europe.
  
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Didn’t you hear “just call me Frank” say that “proselytizing is solemn nonsense?”
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: JPaul on July 29, 2018, 09:06:01 AM
I think that the Muslims of Europe need to be taught the catechism and brought into the Church, then guess what, no more Muslims in Europe.
  
When enough of them get in, the will be no more  Christians.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: JezusDeKoning on July 29, 2018, 09:50:01 AM
When enough of them get in, the will be no more  Christians.
The best Europe is a Muslim-free, mosque-free, Quran-free, hijab-free Europe. The savages coming by boat are there to wreak havoc and wreak havoc only. 

They are incompatible with Western values when they come here. The attacks on Paris in November 2015 should've been enough to set every mosque in Paris on fire, but no.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 29, 2018, 10:42:38 PM
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You try teach a Moslem catechism then guess what, they choppa offa you head. Duuuh.  :fryingpan:

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Maybe you would enjoy this fart fest, a poche party!
(https://media.breitbart.com/media/2018/07/Muslims-Rome-640x480.png)                                          
If they chop my head off then I hope to be faithful to our Holy Faith. And I offer my life for the conversion of the Moslems to our holy Faith.   
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 29, 2018, 10:45:21 PM
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Didn’t you hear “just call me Frank” say that “proselytizing is solemn nonsense?”
Evangelization is not nonsense.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: JPaul on July 30, 2018, 09:45:26 AM
Evangelization is not nonsense.
If you feel that way then tell it to the Pope who in his characteristic un-Catholic way says that it is.
Title: Re: The Coyote Saint
Post by: poche on July 30, 2018, 11:42:47 AM
If you feel that way then tell it to the Pope who in his characteristic un-Catholic way says that it is.
I say it to everybody.