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Author Topic: The Coyote Saint  (Read 7634 times)

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Offline JPaul

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Re: The Coyote Saint
« Reply #60 on: July 19, 2018, 07:46:06 PM »
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  • No one knows how Toribio Romo became the de facto patron saint of border crossers or those undertaking perilous journeys.  While the Catholic Church recognizes him as a saint, they do not recognize him as the patron saint of migrants, a role he has assumed seemingly spontaneously.  The Vatican’s official saint for migrants, ironically, is the first American citizen to become a saint, Mother Frances Cabrini, an Italian nun who helped Italian immigrants in the US in the late 19th Century.  As Mexicans have a hard time identifying with Mother Cabrini, Santo Toribio has filled the void and has been growing in popularity as the patron saint of Mexican migrants ever since his canonization.

    http://mexicounexplained.com/saint-toribio-romo-mexican-martyr-angelic-coyote/
    And therein is one of the modern problems. Mexicans are Catholic by and large, why are the Catholic saints hard to identify with?  Like everything else today, why must they have their own saints? When you become a Catholic you become part of something far beyond your own people. This is Francis and his church of the people. Saints are not there to help you illegaly cross the border and they do not protect those who deliberately put themselves in peril for reasons having nothing to do with serving Jesus Christ.  And there are illegals from all over S.A., as well as Mohammadans, Somalians, and any number of Black Africans, and Middle Easterners coming across our poorly managed borders.
    Make no  mistake, in Francis's conciliar church of Man, a "saint" such may indeed help people to break the laws, but it is not so in the Catholic Church.


    Offline poche

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    Re: The Coyote Saint
    « Reply #61 on: July 19, 2018, 10:39:37 PM »
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  • I'm pretty sure that St. Margaret of Scotland, in performing her charitable works, would not have encouraged anyone to break the law nor would she have supported them in doing so.
    No, but Jesus, Mary, and Joseph broke immigration law when they fled into Egypt.


    Offline poche

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    Re: The Coyote Saint
    « Reply #62 on: July 19, 2018, 11:55:34 PM »
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  • o who was Toribio Romo, the man?  He was born in the year 1900 in the small farming town of Santa Ana de Guadalupe in Jalisco a little ways off the main road leading from Guadalajara to San Juan de los Lagos.  He was from a very poor family, but early on young Toribio stood out from the other children for his intelligent and contemplative nature.  From an early age he wanted to go to seminary and become a priest but his family hesitated in sending him away.  In 1912 Romo entered the Auxiliary Seminary about 25 miles away in San Juan de los Lagos.  Ten years later he became a priest, one of the youngest to be ordained in Mexico which required special permission from the Vatican.


    http://mexicounexplained.com/saint-toribio-romo-mexican-martyr-angelic-coyote/

    Offline poche

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    Re: The Coyote Saint
    « Reply #63 on: July 19, 2018, 11:56:17 PM »
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  • And therein is one of the modern problems. Mexicans are Catholic by and large, why are the Catholic saints hard to identify with?  Like everything else today, why must they have their own saints? When you become a Catholic you become part of something far beyond your own people. This is Francis and his church of the people. Saints are not there to help you illegaly cross the border and they do not protect those who deliberately put themselves in peril for reasons having nothing to do with serving Jesus Christ.  And there are illegals from all over S.A., as well as Mohammadans, Somalians, and any number of Black Africans, and Middle Easterners coming across our poorly managed borders.
    Make no  mistake, in Francis's conciliar church of Man, a "saint" such may indeed help people to break the laws, but it is not so in the Catholic Church.
    The holiness of the saints is for every day and everybody.

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: The Coyote Saint
    « Reply #64 on: July 20, 2018, 09:00:47 AM »
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  • A Coyote is a smuggler of men, a man who illegally crosses borders with them for money, and is determined to violate the law.
    A very poor name for a saint as, Catholic Saints would not be involved in such things if they are holy.


    Offline poche

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    Re: The Coyote Saint
    « Reply #65 on: July 20, 2018, 11:02:46 PM »
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  • A Coyote is a smuggler of men, a man who illegally crosses borders with them for money, and is determined to violate the law.
    A very poor name for a saint as, Catholic Saints would not be involved in such things if they are holy.
    The Holy Virgin sent him to help those who were in need. Who am I to question the Holy Virgin.  

    Offline Meg

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    Re: The Coyote Saint
    « Reply #66 on: July 21, 2018, 12:00:07 AM »
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  • No, but Jesus, Mary, and Joseph broke immigration law when they fled into Egypt.

    Why do you believe that they broke immigration law when they fled to Egypt?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline poche

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    Re: The Coyote Saint
    « Reply #67 on: July 21, 2018, 03:56:47 AM »
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  • Why do you believe that they broke immigration law when they fled to Egypt?
    They were wanted 'criminals.' They didn't ask permission.
    Under Trump, Joseph and Mary would be placed in detention and the baby Jesus would be taken away from Mary and kept in a cage.


    Offline poche

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    Re: The Coyote Saint
    « Reply #68 on: July 21, 2018, 04:00:03 AM »
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  • By the way, here is something about St Toribio Romo that might surprise a lot of people;

      Toribio Romo has been described as a deep thinker and scholar, constantly challenged by matters of faith and always examining his conscience.  He was known for having a fine mind and gentle nature.  He also loved writing.  In an ironic twist, in 1920, while still in seminary, Toribio Romo published a play called “Let’s Go North!” a comedy about the perils of crossing the border to find work in the United States and what would happen to a man after spending too much time on the other side of the border.  Like many Catholic priests of the time, Romo discouraged people from leaving their small towns to seek work in the United States.  His one-act play consists of two characters, the Americanized Mexican Don Rogaciano who returns to his town with money and fancy clothes, and an attitude of superiority and worldliness, and Sancho, a smart-mouthed local who never left Mexico.  Don Rogaciano tries to impress the townsfolk with his command of English and his city ways, and denounces village priests as “money-grubbing retrograde obscurantists.”  In the end Sancho gets the best of Rogaciano by beating him with a cane, but Toribio Romo’s main message of the play can be found in some of the final words of the Sancho character when he says this:  “Take a good look at what becomes of the Mexican who goes north.  He ends up a man without religion, without a country or home… a coward, a feminized man who is incapable of feeling shame for having abandoned his responsibilities to his family.  Despite this, the roads are packed with Mexicans headed toward the United States in search of bitter bread.  Everywhere you hear the rallying cry:  ‘Let’s go north!’”

    http://mexicounexplained.com/saint-toribio-romo-mexican-martyr-angelic-coyote/

    Offline Meg

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    Re: The Coyote Saint
    « Reply #69 on: July 21, 2018, 09:31:00 AM »
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  • They were wanted 'criminals.' They didn't ask permission.
    Under Trump, Joseph and Mary would be placed in detention and the baby Jesus would be taken away from Mary and kept in a cage.

    You said that they broke immigration laws. What laws were those exactly? Please be specific.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: The Coyote Saint
    « Reply #70 on: July 21, 2018, 10:55:44 AM »
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  • They were wanted 'criminals.' They didn't ask permission.
    Under Trump, Joseph and Mary would be placed in detention and the baby Jesus would be taken away from Mary and kept in a cage.
    How low you sink to equate the Holy Family to the brown hoardes of financial opportunists invading the Christian world today.
    Our country is sinking under the weight of the financial burden and the rampant crime which these aliens who have no reasonable right or reason to be here, bring with them, and you would have the saints be in league with them.
    You are definitely a member of Francis's church of Man.


    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: The Coyote Saint
    « Reply #71 on: July 21, 2018, 11:24:46 AM »
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  • http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/

    Jesus was not an illegal immigrant or refugee
    image: http://capstonereport.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Merson_Rest_on_the_Flight_into_Egypt.jpg


    Jesus was not an “illegal immigrant” nor “refugee” as many Progressive Christians like Russell Moore of the Southern Baptist Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission (ERLC) claim. The use of such terms on a world of pre-modern states before the rise of nationalism is likely an abuse of hermeneutics by applying contemporary terms on the ancient world. However, if we are to apply such terms, we should make sure to apply the terms accurately. Both the terms “illegal immigrant” and “refugee” have specific meanings for scholars of International Law and Political Science—definitions which clearly do not fit Jesus or his parents. This essay briefly defines the legal terms and the historical situation in Judaea, Galilee and Egypt during the life of Jesus Christ. Applying the modern terms, we find that Jesus would be the modern equivalent of a Roman national moving between Roman provinces, and thus not fitting either refugee or immigrant categories. First, the genesis of the controversy.

    The biblical data regarding the flight into Egypt provides the context for the claims about Jesus. “After they were gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, ‘Get up! Take the child and his mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until I tell you. For Herod is about to search for the child to kill him.’ 14 So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night, and escaped to Egypt. 15 He stayed there until Herod’s death, so that what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet might be fulfilled: Out of Egypt I called my Son.”[1]

    Liberals claim this makes Jesus an “illegal immigrant” or “refugee.” Representative of these assertions are two separate offerings by Dr. Russell Moore. Moore claimed, Jesus lived as a “refugee in a foreign land, a land long hostile to his own.”[2] On a blog post, Moore claimed, “It’s horrifying to hear those identified with the gospel speak, whatever their position on the issues, with mean-spirited disdain for the immigrants themselves. This is a gospel issue. First of all, our Lord Jesus himself was a so-called ‘illegal immigrant.’ Fleeing, like many of those in our country right now, a brutal political situation, our Lord’s parents sojourned with him in Egypt (Matt. 2:13-23). Jesus, who lived out his life for us, spent his childhood years in a foreign land away from his relatives among people speaking a different language with strange customs.”[3]

    Dr. Norman L. Geisler pointed out the Bible was a “prescientific” collection of writings, and a book written for every generation.  He cautioned against anachronistically imposing “modern scientific standards upon them.” (See: Are There Any Errors in The Bible?) It would likewise seem reasonable when dealing with pre-modern states and a multi-ethnic empire not to apply legal terms and standards arising out of our modern, post-Westphalian system.
    Nonetheless, our progressive friends have done this, and it requires a careful examination of the terms and the political situation of the New Testament.

    Was Jesus a refugee? Was Jesus an ‘illegal immigrant?’

    There are many helpful things to keep in mind when discussing modern immigration and the ancient world. First, immigrant is best defined as an alien seeking entry to another state, where alien is defined by the United States Department of Homeland Security as “any person not a citizen or national of the United States.” Second, not everyone living in a state is a citizen of the state. This was true in antiquity and is even true in modern times. For the purposes of international law, these are typically defined as nationals. The 1948 UN Declaration of Human Rights declares, “Everyone has a right to a nationality.” According to one textbook legal case, “Nationality serves above all to determine the person upon whom it is conferred enjoys the rights and is bound by the obligations which the law of the State in question grants to or imposes on its nationals.”[4]

    In essence, to be a national of a state is to be born under the sovereign jurisdiction of a power (this is obtained via either ius sanguinis or ius soli as determined by the law.)

    Or, in the post-Westphalian world, nationality “was essentially a method of classification between those who owed allegiance and those who did not to a particular sovereign.”[5]

    The IRS defines an American national as, “An individual who owes his sole allegiance to the United States, including all U.S. citizens, and including some individuals who are not U.S. citizens. For tax purposes the term ‘U.S. national’ refers to individuals who were born in American Samoa or were born in the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands who have made the election to be treated as U.S. nationals and not as U.S. citizens.”  An alien, then is defined by the IRS in the same manner as the above DHS, “An individual who is not a U.S. citizen or U.S. national.”

    A refugee is defined legally by international treaties. The best definition in International Law would be the United Nations Protocol on The Treatment of Refugees ratified by 146 countries in 1967. The Treaty declares a refugee to be a person, “owing to well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former habitual residence as a result of such events, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it.” (Read The Treaty Text).

    Key to this definition of refugee is “country of nationality.” A refugee is someone who must flee their country of nationality over persecution. It is important to remember that a person can be a national of a country and not a citizen as we noted in the IRS publication regarding current American law.

    Due to the political situation at the time of Christ, moving from Bethlehem to Aegyptus would not make Jesus a refugee.  Jesus was born a common provincial or a peregrinus[6] within the authority of the Roman Empire. Jesus would have been the modern equivalent of a Roman National; he was under the sovereign control of Rome but was not a citizen of the state. The peregrini were persons not subject to the Roman civil law, but when under Roman authority were judged by the general law or what came to be viewed as the natural law.

    “Since the civil law of Rome could not be applied to noncitizens of Rome, the praetor peregrinus took to deciding these cases on the basis of what might be called general principles of law. That entailed the identification of rules that were common to states in general (or at least were thought to be). Once these were identified, they would be applied to the dispute at hand. This corpus of common or general rules of law, emerging from the adjudications of the praetor peregrinus, became the ius gentium —the law of peoples in general.”[7]

    The political situation in Judaea at the birth of Jesus

    Professor A.N. Sherwin-White noted a “tendency” on the part of everyone from scholars to the public to treat Judaea as something outside the Roman Empire.[8] Perhaps, this results from the use of client kingdoms and odd quirks or Roman terminology, but in any case, Sherwin-White explained that Judaea met key tests for being part of the Roman Empire: “permanent military occupation, regular taxation and Roman supervision of public order.”[9]


    The permanent military occupation began after Pompey’s campaign in Asia around 63 B.C. At that time, “Pompey intervened in a cινιℓ ωαr in Judea between Hyrcanus and Aristobulus; his brief campaign against the latter culminated in a three-month siege of the temple in Jerusalem and its capture.”[10] Roughly, the province of Judea, “included the territories of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, Dan, Simeon, and part of Ephraim. Under the Romans it was a part of the province of Syria, and was governed by a procurator.”[11] This would include Bethlehem and Jerusalem.

    Rome dealt with Judaea by installing client rulers. This was not unusual for Rome. “Client kings played their part in the process of romanisation for, Tacitus wrote, it was a very old Roman tradition to use even kings as instruments in the imposition of slavery, ‘ut habret instrumenta servitutis et reges.'”  (From Tacitus, Agr 14, 2).[12] The settlement of how to treat a newly conquered province rested with the conqueror, in the case of Judaea that was Pompey, and was submitted to the the Roman Senate or people for ratification via a lex provinciae.[13] According to one commentary on Matthew, “Herod is king only because it pleases the Romans to have him rule over this troublesome region peopled by the equally troubling Judeans. Herod is a pawn used by Rome to maintain order useful to Rome. Jesus is born in an occupied land, a small outpost, on the edge of a mighty empire.”[14]

    The usefulness for Rome was a strong leader and help in the Parthian War (see Josephus, Wars of the Jєωs 1.14.4). Herod’s loyalty to Rome was absolute, according to scholars, “The rise to power of both Antipater and Herod was predicated first and foremost on their unswerving loyalty to Rome. Both father and son were convinced that, following the conquest of Judea by Pompey in 63 b.c.e., nothing could be achieved without the consent and aid of Rome. This principle was inviolable, and it guided their actions under all circuмstances and at any price.”[15]

    At the time of Christ’s birth, the Gospel of Luke declares that Jesus and his parents were under Roman jurisdiction. “There went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed” (Luke 2:1).  According to Schaff, this was a “head-tax” applicable to everyone in the Roman Empire who was female over the age of 12 and male over the age of 14. Stein in his Commentary on Luke points out two interesting points: that Jєωs were exempt from military service, but not from taxes. The fact that Jєωs were dependent on Rome for security and subject to taxation are important facts to establish the subjugation of the region to Roman political authority.

    Chrysostom points out that it was difficult to leave home, but Jesus and his parents found a welcoming land of safety, “Isn’t this remarkable: While Palestine plots, it is Egypt that receives and preserves the One for whom the plots are designed! This is reminiscent of the patriarch Jacob, who also sought succor in Egypt, anticipating the coming of our Lord.”[16] Alexandria was a major location of Jєωιѕн settlement in Egypt, but it was by no means the only one as the collapse of the Jєωιѕн state detailed in Jeremiah revealed. “The narrative in Jeremiah states definitely that the large proportion of those who had rallied about Gedaliah after his death found a temporary asylum on the eastern borders of Egypt.”[17] This included the locations of Tahpanhes and Migdol, but there were other Jєωιѕн settlements know to Jeremiah and Ezekiel including the Jєωs at Memphis and Pathros. .[18]
    When Mary, Joseph and Jesus fled Herod, they fled into another Roman province—Egypt, or as the Romans called it Aegyptus. Aegyptus was a province personally controlled by Augustus and administered on Caesar’s behalf by an appointed Praefectus Augustalis. With both provinces under Roman administration, and with a long history of Jєωιѕн settlement in Egypt (and likely the translation of the Hebrew scriptures into the Greek Septuagint happened in Egypt), it would appear to make the move of Jesus from Bethlehem to Egypt analogous to moving between parts of the European Union, such as moving from Poland to Portugal. It is worth noting both Judaea and Egypt were under Roman military occupation, subject to Roman tax policy and supervision of public order—all tests Prof. Sherwin-White identified as critical for determining status as a Roman subject.

    Christians should hold progressives accountable for their misuse and abuse of the Gospel narratives to further their political agenda. Progressives like Dr. Moore and others use biblical, historical and political ignorance to promote their policies. Christians should reject such worldly and inappropriate use of the biblical narratives.

    Simply, Jesus was not an illegal immigrant nor was Jesus a refugee.

    Read more at http://capstonereport.com/2018/02/12/jesus-not-illegal-immigrant-refugee/31913/#vmvoTxiVgygsQtbr.99

    Offline AlligatorDicax

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    Holy-Famly Illegals?/Re: The Coyote Saint
    « Reply #72 on: July 21, 2018, 04:00:42 PM »
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  • Novus Odo mole Poche is seriously discrediting himself (and the N.O. handlers to whom I and other C.I. members assume he is subject) by defending his position by making ridiculous claims that he himself must know are not true, that is to say: deliberate lies.


    No, but Jesus, Mary, and Joseph broke immigration law when they fled into Egypt.

    Really?   What "immigration law", exactly?

    •  One of the most important features of (the) Pax Romana was the freedom of travel it allowed within the Roman Empire.
    •  Both Judæa and Egypt qualified for that freedom, because they were unquestionably within the Roman Empire at the time of the Christ.
    •  Syria (loosely defined back then as the land around Antioch) was conquered by General Pompey "the Great" (Gnaeus Pompēius) during 66--62 B.C.
    •  Jerusalem was captured by Pompey, as crucial to Roman control of Judæa, in 64 B.C.
    •  The government of Syria and those of other Roman-controlled lands in S.W. Asia were reorganized by Pompey, also during 66--62 B.C.
    •  That reorganization included 5 lands being placed into the hands of local rulers as client kingdoms: Cappadocia, Galatia, Lycia, eastern Pontus (all 4 being in Anatolia), and Judæa (in Syria).
    •  The client ruler of Judæa remained subject to the Roman governor (lit. "praeside") of Syria, e.g., Cyrinus for the census of Lk. 2:1--2.
    •  Egypt came under control of Rome after Cleopatra, the last of Egypt's Ptolemaic line of rulers, committed ѕυιcιdє in 30 B.C. (that year included the ѕυιcιdє of Marc Anthony and the arrival of Octavian, whose victory at Actium had stimulated those ѕυιcιdєs).


    They didn't ask permission.

    More nonsense!

    "Permission" from whom and for what, exactly?  See "Pax Romana" (above).


    They were wanted 'criminals'.

    And still more nonsense!

    The Gospels make no claim that anyone was declared "criminal" nor "wanted".  What, exactly, would the Holy Family's "criminal" offense have been?

    •  The Gospels provide very little information for this episode: The Holy Family's flight to, and return from, Egypt, appears only as a single chapter by Matthew; none of the other Evangelists even hint at it.
    •  Herod could not identify "he who is born king of the Jєωs" (Mt. 2:2), altho' he was eager to discover the infant--or maybe toddler.
    •  Luke, with his report instead of travel to Jerusalem for circuмcision and purification, at best complicates the traditional chronology.

    Your unsupported claims above deserve to be dismissed by readers as a really blatant deliberate fabrication with no basis in the Gospels nor tradition.  It's so blatant that readers should feel freed to speculate unflatteringly on your motives for posting.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: The Coyote Saint
    « Reply #73 on: July 21, 2018, 05:04:41 PM »
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  • They were wanted 'criminals.' They didn't ask permission.
    Under Trump, Joseph and Mary would be placed in detention and the baby Jesus would be taken away from Mary and kept in a cage.

    Ah yes, the big bad Trump, who won't go along with the One Worlder (Globalist) goal of one world, one government, one race, one currency, one ecuмenical, man-made religion (hint: not the Catholic religion), etc.

    You would be in agreement with all the droves of Hispanic voters who voted for Hillary, for "immigration justice" over more important issues like abortion, the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ agenda, and countless other moral evils.

    In fact, the way you talk about Trump in a negative light, I have to wonder if you didn't vote for Hillary the Demonic yourself!

    The whole idea that everyone has a right to come into this particular country, circuмventing Immigration and any laws to regulate it, is ridiculous. If God meant for everyone to come to the USA, He would have made them all born here!
    We're having a miniature version of this happening within the USA itself: everyone is moving to Texas, because it has the best economy. But WHY does it have the best economy?

    It's the existing culture that you find (found?) here:

    - Christian decency, courtesy to others
    - self sufficiency
    - hard work
    - common sense
    - down to earth (two bulls can't make a baby)
    - Republican (as opposed to democrat)
    - Closely related to the previous, very business-friendly and low-taxation, smaller government
    - No income tax

    So what happens? We're the last one standing, economy-wise, and now all the lib-tards in California, Illinois, and other liberal failed states want to move here. But here's the problem: They're going to bring with them all the liberalism, liberal beliefs, and problems that come with putting those beliefs into practice -- which turned their own states into so many shitholes, and since they can vote here, they're naturally going to turn Texas into another shithole.

    I can see the argument for limiting immigration.

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    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: The Coyote Saint
    « Reply #74 on: July 21, 2018, 07:24:32 PM »
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  • So what happens? We're the last one standing, economy-wise, and now all the lib-tards in California, Illinois, and other liberal failed states want to move here. But here's the problem: They're going to bring with them all the liberalism, liberal beliefs, and problems that come with putting those beliefs into practice -- which turned their own states into so many shitholes, and since they can vote here, they're naturally going to turn Texas into another shithole.

    ;)

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.