Author Topic: Taxes, to pay or not to pay (Read 2913 times)

Spork · « **on:** July 26, 2011, 11:48:23 AM »

I do not need to contextualize my thinking here as we are all pretty much in cahoots when it comes to begrudgingly paying our income taxes.

My question: Is it a mortal sin to consciously and deliberately not pay your income taxes both to the federal government and your state government? We know where the money goes: Women's "Health" Centers, Public Scruels, welfare to illegals, misfits, loafers; to industrial behemoths who supply Rome/Washington with an arsenal to propagate unjust wars; foreign aid, repulsive 'art' institutes, etc. etc. etc. Oh, I think I just contextualized. Thank you for your time and thoughtful answers.

Spork

s2srea · « **Reply #1 on:** July 26, 2011, 11:51:59 AM »

I dunno... it also goes to services which we actually need, though most of the time those are abused as well. I'm thinking emergency and public safety services, roads and stuff like that.

I don't think it would be too smart to try and not pay them either... I think the IRS would definitely come after you. They're too powerful.

Spork · « **Reply #2 on:** July 26, 2011, 12:12:41 PM »

Quote from: s2srea

I dunno... it also goes to services which we actually need, though most of the time those are abused as well. I'm thinking emergency and public safety services, roads and stuff like that.

I don't think it would be too smart to try and not pay them either... I think the IRS would definitely come after you. They're too powerful.

What services do the respective state governments and federal government provide that we actually need? We can pay for roads and a properly functioning military with consumption/sales taxes. I believe the Mises Institute(BTW: I am not an Austrian School Economist) did a study and found that if the government rescinded its unconstitutional 'services', minted sound money, and relied on tariffs(I think) and consumption taxes, it could pay for itself many times over in just one year of revenue collection.

The IRS does not scare me; the Judgement of God does.

s2srea · « **Reply #3 on:** July 26, 2011, 12:23:40 PM »

Quote from: Spork

What services do the respective state governments and federal government provide that we actually need? We can pay for roads and a properly functioning military with consumption/sales taxes.

While this is true, it is very unlikely from actually happening.

Quote

The IRS does not scare me; the Judgement of God does.

As it it does me brother. However, I don' t think it'd be wise to not pay your taxes... but thats just me :farmer:

Matthew · « **Reply #4 on:** July 26, 2011, 12:31:08 PM »

Apparently the amendment which brought about Income Tax

A) came about simultaneously with the founding of the Federal Reserve (basically, income taxes are necessary to pay interest on our debt-money!)

B) was unconstitutional

C) is therefore technically void

HOWEVER...

You don't pay your (unjust, illegal) income tax, and the IRS will have tanks in your front yard all the same.

There's being RIGHT, and then there's being DEAD RIGHT.

You could hit the gas pedal when the light turns green as well -- and you'd be 100% legal and in-the-right -- but if some guy was barreling through the intersection (running a red light), he could smack into you and kill you just the same -- you'd be DEAD right.

Something my grandfather taught my mother.

It's a question of prudence.

Matthew

s2srea · « **Reply #5 on:** July 26, 2011, 12:36:46 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

It's a question of prudence.

I notice that word around here a lot lately

Spork · « **Reply #6 on:** July 26, 2011, 02:06:34 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

Apparently the amendment which brought about Income Tax

A) came about simultaneously with the founding of the Federal Reserve (basically, income taxes are necessary to pay interest on our debt-money!)

B) was unconstitutional

C) is therefore technically void

HOWEVER...

You don't pay your (unjust, illegal) income tax, and the IRS will have tanks in your front yard all the same.

There's being RIGHT, and then there's being DEAD RIGHT.

You could hit the gas pedal when the light turns green as well -- and you'd be 100% legal and in-the-right -- but if some guy was barreling through the intersection (running a red light), he could smack into you and kill you just the same -- you'd be DEAD right.

Something my grandfather taught my mother.

[b]It's a question of prudence[/b].

Matthew

Therefore I would be committing mortal sin as I was not acting prudently? By refusing to pay my taxes, that is.

s2srea · « **Reply #7 on:** July 26, 2011, 02:12:04 PM »

Quote from: Spork

Therefore I would be committing mortal sin as I was not acting prudently? By refusing to pay my taxes, that is.

I don't think it would be a sin Spork, but unwise.

s2srea · « **Reply #8 on:** July 26, 2011, 02:16:45 PM »

Also, for the most part, most people have no say whether they pay taxes. Especially when they work for a corporation or business. You might pay 'less' taxes, by lying and claiming you have more dependents than you actually have. But unless you own a business, where you normally would make payments to the IRS directly, and chose not to pay the IRS on your income at the end of the year, you have little say. Lastly, if you were to be a business owner, and didn't pay, you would be shut down for good.

Catholic Samurai · « **Reply #9 on:** July 26, 2011, 02:20:07 PM »

Quote from: s2srea

Also, for the most part, most people have no say whether they pay taxes. Especially when they work for a corporation or business. You might pay 'less' taxes, by lying and claiming you have more dependents than you actually have. But unless you own a business, where you normally would make payments to the IRS directly, and chose not to pay the IRS on your income at the end of the year, you have little say. Lastly, if you were to be a business owner, and didn't pay, you would be shut down for good.

I was going to say, yeah... if you're an employee you don't have a say in the matter anyway, since it's automatically taken out of your paycheck, remember?

Spork · « **Reply #10 on:** July 26, 2011, 02:21:14 PM »

Quote from: s2srea

Also, for the most part, most people have no say whether they pay taxes. Especially when they work for a corporation or business. You might pay 'less' taxes, by lying and claiming you have more dependents than you actually have. But unless you own a business, where you normally would make payments to the IRS directly, and chose not to pay the IRS on your income at the end of the year, you have little say. Lastly, if you were to be a business owner, and didn't pay, you would be shut down for good.

Very true s2s. But what if a person has the skills and goods to sell for cash? Skills and goods that everyone needs/uses. I am talking about, for example, being a tradesperson who farms.

s2srea · « **Reply #11 on:** July 26, 2011, 02:26:02 PM »

Quote from: Spork

Very true s2s. But what if a person has the skills and goods to sell for cash? Skills and goods that everyone needs/uses. I am talking about, for example, being a tradesperson who farms.

Hey Spork- I love that idea. If you thought you could do it, I would say go for it. Of course you would be paying sales and use tax on things, but its a lot better than most of us have it. It was only a matter of time that the states (at least my retarded state, California :devil2:) taxed online sales as well.

Spork · « **Reply #12 on:** July 26, 2011, 02:44:06 PM »

Quote from: s2srea

Quote from: Spork
Very true s2s. But what if a person has the skills and goods to sell for cash? Skills and goods that everyone needs/uses. I am talking about, for example, being a tradesperson who farms.

Hey Spork- I love that idea. If you thought you could do it, I would say go for it. Of course you would be paying sales and use tax on things, but its a lot better than most of us have it. It was only a matter of time that the states (at least my retarded state, California :devil2:) taxed online sales as well.

I love the idea, too. Too bad I am not a tradesperson or farmer. Yet, anyway.

Hobbledehoy · « **Reply #13 on:** July 26, 2011, 10:53:00 PM »

I am oftentimes reminded of the words of Our Lord, "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God, the things that are God's" (St. Matt. ch. xxii. 21), and I oftentimes respond, "But Caesar did not mix cement under the hot sun for hours and hours in order to get the pittance I give away to the utility companies, credit cards and the Bank anyways, so..."

I think the prudent use of mental reservation in order to avoid paying for an amount of taxes that would be unrealistic or gravely inconvenient to pay may be legitimate, especially if you own your own business and face the myriad hardships wherewith big government rewards those who seek to fulfill the American dream by being one's own man and providently providing for one's family

:really-mad2:

Really, sometimes I feel like we're in the Soviet States of America! It really feels like I'm paying these guys for the right to work and survive! It angries up the blood, I tell ya what!

But other countries demand more taxes from their citizens, though they have a more efficient way of administering these monies to provide better services for their communities in comparison to what we have here in the USA (or so I've heard).

However, committing perjury and fraud in order to get more tax return money would be a grave sin, depending on the sorts of lies and the amount of money illicitly obtained, in my opinion.

Spork · « **Reply #14 on:** July 27, 2011, 12:45:37 PM »

Quote from: Hobbledehoy

I am oftentimes reminded of the words of Our Lord, "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God, the things that are God's" (St. Matt. ch. xxii. 21), and I oftentimes respond, "But Caesar did not mix cement under the hot sun for hours and hours in order to get the pittance I give away to the utility companies, credit cards and the Bank anyways, so..."

I think the prudent use of mental reservation in order to avoid paying for an amount of taxes that would be unrealistic or gravely inconvenient to pay may be legitimate, especially if you own your own business and face the myriad hardships wherewith big government rewards those who seek to fulfill the American dream by being one's own man and providently providing for one's family

:really-mad2:

Really, sometimes I feel like we're in the Soviet States of America! It really feels like I'm paying these guys for the right to work and survive! It angries up the blood, I tell ya what!

But other countries demand more taxes from their citizens, though they have a more efficient way of administering these monies to provide better services for their communities in comparison to what we have here in the USA (or so I've heard).

However, committing perjury and fraud in order to get more tax return money would be a grave sin, depending on the sorts of lies and the amount of money illicitly obtained, in my opinion.

Lying on tax forms is a sin and one I do not plan to do.

I wonder if Pope Leo XIII was chained by scruples writing Rerum Novarum.

There has to be a context and then a level of Caesar's reach that is confirmed and protected by the teachings of the Church. If we are to absolutely render unto Caesar, Leo XIII would have instructed the laborers to give all their labor for whatever pittance the owners wanted to pay. So while I am most definitely not rejecting Our Lord's admonishment, I understand it to mean that we should obey legal authority to the extent that justice is prevalent. I don't think it means that Caesar has a right to rule cruelly. Just my analysis, however flimsy it may be.