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Author Topic: Tattoos are a mortal sin  (Read 10487 times)

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Offline Maria Regina

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Re: Tattoos are a mortal sin
« Reply #90 on: October 22, 2018, 09:14:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 22, 2018, 11:37:56 AM
    I disagree ... to a point.  It is not possible to commit a mortal sin without full knowledge and advertence.  Here I distinguish mortal sin from grave sin.  Mortal sin causes the loss of sanctifying grace.  So a 3-year-old child can commit a GRAVE sin but not a mortal sin, because he has not reached the age of reason.  I personally would confess all grave sins I have committed because I can never be sure about the degree of my ignorance and/or culpability.  Even ignorance can be culpable.

    Since this is in the context of tattoos, I'm guessing that we're talking about someone who is now convinced that the tattoos he/she received in the past were grave matter but did not consider it such in the past.  I would confess the sin, although some schools of moral theology (such as the probabilist views of St. Alphonsus) would remove the obligation (since there's doubt).  There COULD have been a sufficient degree of culpability in the ignorance, but probabilism would excuse from the obligation to confess if it's not certain that a mortal sin was committed.  Probabilism is also the philosophy suggested for those who have issues with scrupulosity.

    Did not Our Lady of Fatima say that there are many people in Hell, including children as young as two and three?
    .
    Did not St. Therese of Liseau say that she had reached the age of reason by three years of age?
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    Offline Vintagewife3

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    Re: Tattoos are a mortal sin
    « Reply #91 on: October 22, 2018, 09:22:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: Maria Regina on October 22, 2018, 09:14:04 PM
    Did not Our Lady of Fatima say that there are many people in Hell, including children as young as two and three?
    .
    Did not St. Therese of Liseau say that she had reached the age of reason by three years of age?
    But then why don’t kids go to confession at that age...? It doesn’t make sense God would condemn kids that young...
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    Offline RoughAshlar

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    Re: Tattoos are a mortal sin
    « Reply #92 on: October 22, 2018, 09:29:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: Maria Regina on October 22, 2018, 09:14:04 PM
    Did not Our Lady of Fatima say that there are many people in Hell, including children as young as two and three?
    .
    Did not St. Therese of Liseau say that she had reached the age of reason by three years of age?
    Can you provide a link to that quote from Fatima?  Never heard that or thought that the Church taught that?
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    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: Tattoos are a mortal sin
    « Reply #93 on: October 22, 2018, 11:08:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: RoughAshlar on October 22, 2018, 09:29:33 PM
    Can you provide a link to that quote from Fatima?  Never heard that or thought that the Church taught that?
    I think it was in a Fatima Crusader, but that was long ago.
    .
    My priest has told me that he has heard the confessions of children as young as three. He interviews them carefully to insure that they know what they are doing, that they make their confession willingly, and that they are not under pressure from parents, siblings, or teachers to do so. He has told me: if a child is aware of his own sinfulness and wants to confess his sins, let him do so, especially if that child may have committed a mortal sin.

    What harm can a holy confession do?
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    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Tattoos are a mortal sin
    « Reply #94 on: October 22, 2018, 11:20:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Maria Regina on October 22, 2018, 09:14:04 PM
    Did not Our Lady of Fatima say that there are many people in Hell, including children as young as two and three?
    .
    Did not St. Therese of Liseau say that she had reached the age of reason by three years of age?

    Children under the age of reason would be in Hell because they are unbaptized; not because they are accountable for a mortal sin.
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    Offline Student of Qi

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    Re: Tattoos are a mortal sin
    « Reply #95 on: October 22, 2018, 11:23:10 PM »
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    • In support of Ladislaus I would like to drop in my two cents:

    Was it not St. Catherine of Sienna who BRANDED a cross with Jesus's Name over her breast to show she belonged to no one else? She's a Saint now, so ya gonna contest her canonization over it?? It would sure count as mutilation/disfigurement and probably even tattooing (though sans the ink?).

    I know, I know, next someone's gonna interject "But SoQ, she's a woman and probably wasn't thinking!" Or "But she's a saint and we aren't", etc. :facepalm:

     I might get a small cross on my wrist or chest like our Eastern brothers in the distant future as well. I've thought of it before and wanted it, even though I personally don't like tattoos. I do approve of them as branding though, I don't think something small and inconspicuous is a bad thing as long as it is to identify you as being part of a tribe/clan/army/Catholic, it should have a functional purpose.
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    Offline Student of Qi

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    Re: Tattoos are a mortal sin
    « Reply #96 on: October 22, 2018, 11:28:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: RoughAshlar on October 22, 2018, 09:29:33 PM
    Can you provide a link to that quote from Fatima?  Never heard that or thought that the Church taught that?
    Same, I never heard of that in the Fatima message. 
    And the norm is that children reach the age of reason around the age of 7, which is usually why they don't make their First Communion before that time. There are always exceptions to the rules. I sometimes think I was a bit late... Anyways, Matthew has used that phrase so many times around here: "The exception proves the rule".
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    Many people say "For the Honor and Glory of God!" but, what they should say is "For the Love, Glory and Honor of God". - Fr. Paul of Moll

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tattoos are a mortal sin
    « Reply #97 on: October 23, 2018, 09:38:01 AM »
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    • Well, certainly, it's not as if a person instantly and magically reaches the "age of reason" on his 7th birthday.  That's just a rule of thumb laid down by the Church.  I commend the priest mentioned on this thread who was hearing the Confessions of children younger than 7 ... on a case-by-case basis.  I also believe that some children should be admitted to Holy Communion before the age of 7.  I don't agree with the Eastern custom of letting even 2-year-olds receive Communion because they have no idea that what they're doing is different than eating a snack at home, and that's wrong.

    I believe that it would be a very extraordinary thing for a child under the age of 7 to be capable of committing a mortal sin; my general feeling is that they would have to be closer to 9 or 10 in most cases.  This does not mean that they are not capable of reason TO AN EXTENT.  This is probably true from the age of 3 or 4 up.  But to be able to sufficiently and fully understand the nature of grave sin and to deliberately will it, I suspect that very few children under 7 would be capable of it.

    I don't like the phrase "reach the age of reason".  There's no magical "age of reason", but a gradual progression to reason.  If there's an "age of reason", the expression means, rather, the age that the Church uses as a rule of thumb for a child having attained a degree of reasoning sufficient to commit grave sin.
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    Offline MMagdala

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    Re: Tattoos are a mortal sin
    « Reply #98 on: October 23, 2018, 11:13:06 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 23, 2018, 09:38:01 AM
    I believe that it would be a very extraordinary thing for a child under the age of 7 to be capable of committing a mortal sin; my general feeling is that they would have to be closer to 9 or 10 in most cases.  This does not mean that they are not capable of reason TO AN EXTENT.  This is probably true from the age of 3 or 4 up.  But to be able to sufficiently and fully understand the nature of grave sin and to deliberately will it, I suspect that very few children under 7 would be capable of it.

    I don't like the phrase "reach the age of reason".  There's no magical "age of reason", but a gradual progression to reason.  If there's an "age of reason", the expression means, rather, the age that the Church uses as a rule of thumb for a child having attained a degree of reasoning sufficient to commit grave sin.
    Regarding the first paragraph:
    When grave evil presents itself in a very young child, it would most likely be the work of demonic possession.  Fr. Ripperger explains this in his many sermons about demonic influence.  He has seen it in children as young as 2, maybe even younger.  (I'd have to re-listen to the audio tapes on those.)

    Regarding the second paragraph:
    Correct.  It's a progression, not a chronological date.  With the growing consciousness of the child, regarding effects of doing evil, regarding responsibility and decision-making -- much of this on the experiential level even more than the intellectual level -- comes the gradual cohesion of all of that, so that by age 7-ish, most children will have reached the point where they know the difference between deliberate wrongdoing, unwilled hurt, accidents, etc.  And they will have enough of a relationship with their own fathers that they can internalize the importance of a right relationship with their Heavenly Father.
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    Offline confederate catholic

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    Re: Tattoos are a mortal sin
    « Reply #99 on: October 23, 2018, 03:35:22 PM »
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    • Actually Ladislaus, easterners commune from birth, the exception is the most latinized like maronites.
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    Offline aryzia

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    Re: Tattoos are a mortal sin
    « Reply #100 on: October 23, 2018, 03:59:34 PM »
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    • The fact that tattoos are far more common on the bodies of those who blaspheme and live lives of sin proves to me that tatoos are to be avoided. Even small ones. A little wrong is never right. Living life in a way sinners live cannot be good. The church's recommendations keep us separate and clean. Making a case for uncleaness? Why?
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    Offline confederate catholic

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    Re: Tattoos are a mortal sin
    « Reply #101 on: October 23, 2018, 06:38:38 PM »
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    • You also should know that pagan practice was to actually create a physical scarring well beyond just a tattoo, their tattoos were actually carved in the flesh not just inking the skin. To compare a small cross to physical scarring(which is what is described in scripture) is a stretch
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    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: Tattoos are a mortal sin
    « Reply #102 on: October 23, 2018, 07:17:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: confederate catholic on October 23, 2018, 03:35:22 PM
    Actually Ladislaus, easterners commune from birth, the exception is the most latinized like maronites.
    Also, some Eastern Catholic infants will refuse Holy Communion. This is especially true when these toddlers are in their terrible twos.
    Many  priests have said that these toddlers seen to know that they should not receive Holy Communion, so the priest does not force it upon them even though concerned parents may insist. The babes in arms will shake their heads, utter "no," and then close their mouths very tightly.
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    Lord have mercy.

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Tattoos are a mortal sin
    « Reply #103 on: October 23, 2018, 07:45:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: confederate catholic on October 23, 2018, 06:38:38 PM
    You also should know that pagan practice was to actually create a physical scarring well beyond just a tattoo, their tattoos were actually carved in the flesh not just inking the skin. 
    Like so: https://australianmuseum.net.au/aboriginal-scarification


    Quote
    To compare a small cross to physical scarring(which is what is described in scripture) is a stretch
    It sure is a stretch.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tattoos are a mortal sin
    « Reply #104 on: October 24, 2018, 08:43:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: confederate catholic on October 23, 2018, 03:35:22 PM
    Actually Ladislaus, easterners commune from birth, the exception is the most latinized like maronites.

    Yes, i know that.  And I actually have no issue with an infant receiving Holy Communion, provided every precaution is taken to prevent spilling the Blessed Sacrament, so as to receive the graces of the Sacrament ex opere operato.  I have more of an issue with the toddlers, who prance up there giving every indication that they cannot distinguish Holy Communion from any other snack they would have at home.  That I find incredibly disedifying and in contradiction to the teaching of St. Paul that people must "discern" the Body and Blood of Christ (i.e. clearly distinguish it from regular food).

    Maronites actually also administer Holy Communion at infant Baptism.  But perhaps they discontinue it thereafter.  And I would agree with that.
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