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Author Topic: Immaculata’s new altar installed, St. Marys KS  (Read 5204 times)

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Offline trento

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Re: Immaculata’s new altar installed, St. Marys KS
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2023, 10:48:00 AM »
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    • Quote from: SoldierOfChrist on March 02, 2023, 11:39:09 PM
    It seems really strange for the SSPX to build a $50million church and not give it a high altar.

    Sir, I do hope that you realize that the term high altar means principal or chief altar of the church. That means there could be other side altars besides that chief altar. If a church doesn't have any other altars besides that altar in the sanctuary, then it makes no sense to call it a high altar.

    From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

    In olden times there was but one altar in a church. The Christian Fathers speak of one altar only, and St. Ignatius (Ep. ad Philadelph., 5) refers to this practice when he says: "One altar, as there is one bishop" (Unum altare omni Ecclesiae et unus Episcopus). This altar was erected in the middle of the sanctuary between the bishop's throne, which stood in the apse, and the communion-rail, which separated the sanctuary from the body of the church. On it Divine services were celebrated by the bishop only, assisted by the clergy, who received Holy Communion from his hands. Although each church had but one altar, there were oratories erected near or around the church in which Mass was celebrated. This custom is still maintained throughout the East, so that the liturgical or high altar of the solemn sacrifice is isolated from what may be called the altars of devotional sacrifice on which Mass is said privately. Later on, in the time of St. Ambrose (fourth century), we find the custom of having more than one altar in a church; and St. Gregory (sixth century) evidently approves of the same by sending to Palladius, Bishop of Saintes, France, relics for four altars which, of the thirteen erected in his church, had remained unconsecrated for want of relics. After the introduction of private Masses the necessity of several or even many altars in each church arose. They were erected near the principal altar or in side chapels. The altar in the sanctuary or high chapel always remained the principal one of the church, and the pontifical services in cathedrals as well as the solemn functions in other churches invariably took place at the chief altar on Sundays, holidays, and other solemn occasions of the year.
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    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Re: Immaculata’s new altar installed, St. Marys KS
    « Reply #31 on: March 03, 2023, 11:02:06 AM »
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    • Quote from: Miser Peccator on March 02, 2023, 11:52:21 PM
    "The Great Dome is one of the two visual hallmarks of the National Shrine. Covered in glistening polychrome tiles, it is not only visually stunning, but a physical representation of spiritual truths. It features Marian symbols, each within a six-pointed Star of David, which represents the royal House of David, the Judaic lineage of Mary. "



     In case anyone forgot Jesus was a Jew.........
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    Offline hansel

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    Re: Immaculata’s new altar installed, St. Marys KS
    « Reply #32 on: March 03, 2023, 01:49:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 03, 2023, 10:22:05 AM
    By itself, per se, I have no issues with a freestanding altar.  St. Peter's and many churches have them set up that way.

    It's just that with the new orientation of SSPX, we can't help being suspicious about it and can already imagine Mass versus populum as some kind of concession, which this altar layout makes possible without having to put the old Luther table in front of the old Catholic altar that many NO churches have had to do.


    Totally agree on this point. It's not the freestanding altar in and of itself, which does have a rather lengthy historical precedent in Tradition, but the context it is being implemented in which could be troublesome. 

    In older churches, while the altar was "freestanding" (if you define that as not backed up against a wall) due to the rounded shape of the apse and chapels behind the altar, there were often other architectural motifs that helped to accentuate the location of the altar.  These included reredos, a baldacin, extensions of the choir screens, etc. These elements aren't strictly speaking a required part of the altar, but when used properly did emphasize it's importance. I did notice a lot of the older Roman churches went with a comparatively plain freestanding altar, but then built a huge baldacin over it. In England, they even went with the rood screens which further defined the sanctuary as a separate part of the church building. Of course with the Reformation, all of this came crashing down.... 

    With the new Immaculata, they tried to do this with the paintings, which create a sort of pseudo reredos or background, but still to me it looks out of scale, that relatively tiny angular altar in that massive open space and no concrete visual boundaries. It all seems to blend together. Only time will tell what it will look like in its finished state...

    Somewhat ironically, Christendom College, despite all the VII influences there, went the complete opposite direction with their new chapel's sanctuary and altar, which has a huge reredos: https://chapel.christendom.edu/2022/10/17/a-new-home-rescued-high-altar-brings-joy-to-former-parishioners/
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Immaculata’s new altar installed, St. Marys KS
    « Reply #33 on: March 03, 2023, 03:04:40 PM »
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    • The freestanding altar will come in handy when they inevitably worship the Antichrist :trollface:
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    Offline canis

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    Re: Immaculata’s new altar installed, St. Marys KS
    « Reply #34 on: March 03, 2023, 05:13:56 PM »
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    • The principal problem with this altar, and which intuitively makes many Trads question its fittingness, is that it lacks a baldacchino, or ciborium. If you take the altars of the Roman basilicas and remove their baldacchini, they will look much like this altar here. Therefore the issue isn't the altar itself but its lack of a canopy. Without that vertical element, it looks disproportionately miniscule and flat. I have already addressed this point extensively in a previous post, so I apologize for beating a dead horse: https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/new-seminary-altar-is-table-youtube-video/msg861168/#msg861168

    It should be recalled that in cathedral, collegiate, and chapter churches, the norm is to have the Bl Sacrament reserved in a side chapel, not on the high altar. But this is none of those types of churches. But traditionally a Bl Sacrament altar should have a ciborium, just as one processes with the Bl Sacrament under a canopy of some kind.

    It is indisputable that the mind of the Church and the entire Roman tradition hold that a dignified canopy should be included for the high altar, so as to emphasize the majesty and sublimity of the Holy Sacrifice. It provides a vertical, visual element that parallels the supernatural verticality of the Mass. Remove it, and you literally flatten the altar and symbolically flatten the Mass. Why do you think the modernists removed the canopy?

    The earlier designs of the Immaculata included a tester, which is fine although not as nice as a traditional ciborium. It was later removed. I've heard some people vaguely say that the altar will not remain uncovered, but Fr Rutledge's comments in a previous video suggest the marble columns and murals behind the altar are somehow a substitute, which is completely novel and in saner times would most certainly have been rejected by the SCR as insufficient.

    The absence of a baldacchino for the high altar of the most significant church of the SSPX is not only a bewildering choice, but an outright shame and embarrassment for a fraternity that claims to uphold the Tradition. Every major new church among the neo-con Novus Ordo has returned to a traditional form of the altar that includes either a traditional ciborium or a reredos. Yet the SSPX can't be expected to be more traditional than even these?
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    Offline canis

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    Re: Immaculata’s new altar installed, St. Marys KS
    « Reply #35 on: March 03, 2023, 05:29:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: SoldierOfChrist on March 02, 2023, 03:49:50 PM
    I agree.  What is the difference between this and a Luther table?  And why is the church not structured like the standard rectangle that churches have always sat in?  Why a cross?  Any examples of this structure pre-1970?

    Cruciform churches go back to Old St. Peter's (circa 360), historically one of the most significant churches in Western Christendom (and of course, still to this day). It took the basilica style and added the western transept, creating the form of a cross. St. Peter's is facing West, rather than East, precisely to symbolize the upside-down cross on which St. Peter was crucified. Thus we can see from the earliest moments of public Christianity, they were perfectly conscious and intentional with their symbolism in sacred architecture.

    In the East, the Hagia Sophia was the cathedral church of Constantinople until the fall of Constantinople. Most of the other major Eastern churches were modelled after it. Its current form dates back to the 500s, and it is cruciform (the Greek cross). We may presume that its earlier iteration was also cruciform. Eastern Christianity used the cruciform plan for its churches much earlier than the West, where it did not become the norm until the Gothic era.

    The basilica and cruciform plans are the traditional shapes of a church, universally. But there are right ways to design the cruciform and its proportions, according to classical, Catholic principles, and wrong ways.

    The Immaculata was designed by Civium, headed by David Heit, which has absolutely no proven record in classical church design despite Heit having graduated from Notre Dame during Thomas Gordon Smith's tenure. And it shows. And it also shows how far we have fallen from having a sense of what is truly traditional and beautiful from how 95%+ of traditionalists who see this church become hyperbolically effusive. And to criticize any aspect of it from a traditional standpoint is to invite every form of ad hominem and absurd accusation. It's topsy-turvy.
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    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: Immaculata’s new altar installed, St. Marys KS
    « Reply #36 on: March 03, 2023, 06:48:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: canis on March 03, 2023, 05:29:55 PM
     
    The Immaculata was designed by Civium, headed by David Heit, which has absolutely no proven record in classical church design despite Heit having graduated from Notre Dame during Thomas Gordon Smith's tenure. And it shows. And it also shows how far we have fallen from having a sense of what is truly traditional and beautiful from how 95%+ of traditionalists who see this church become hyperbolically effusive. And to criticize any aspect of it from a traditional standpoint is to invite every form of ad hominem and absurd accusation. It's topsy-turvy.
    It appears that he has done at least one Lutheran church as well as a Methodist one.


    https://www.civiumarchitects.com/sacred
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    Offline canis

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    Re: Immaculata’s new altar installed, St. Marys KS
    « Reply #37 on: March 03, 2023, 07:03:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: LeDeg on March 03, 2023, 06:48:17 PM
    It appears that he has done at least one Lutheran church as well as a Methodist one.


    https://www.civiumarchitects.com/sacred
    I don't mean to be pedantic, but please re-read what I said. I did not say they have never designed a "church". I said that they have absolutely no proven record in classical church design, which they patently don't. Heit's designs for the other "churches" are completely modern. St. Stanislaus incorporates some classical elements but is otherwise a completely modern design.

    For examples of what I mean, see Duncan Stroik, McCrery, or even Frank & Lohsen.
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Immaculata’s new altar installed, St. Marys KS
    « Reply #38 on: March 03, 2023, 08:32:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: moneil on March 03, 2023, 12:26:24 AM
    I would refer one to https://www.nationalshrine.org/art-architecture/.  I'm uncertain about what your question or concern is.  As said, the cornerstone was laid by James Cardinal Gibbons in 1902.  The project was conceived by the entire body of U.S. bishops after they declared Our Lady under the title of the Immaculate Conception as the Patroness of the United States in 1846.  Since its beginning the Shrine has received the praise and support of every Supreme Pontiff: Leo XIII, St. Pius X, Benedict XV, Pius XI, Pius XII ... I'll not go any further with this group :-).  If none of them had a problem with its design I'm not going to.

    "project conceived" ≠ "vetted every detail, including the stars of Rempham"

    "praise and support of the Shrine" ≠ "aware of every detail, incl    uding the stars of Rempham"

    In view of the diabolical significance of the Star of Rempham, I'm calling "bullsh*t" on your attempt to infer that a litany of Popes and Cardinal Gibbons specifically knew of and "imprimatured" the Stars of Rempham.

    Unless you can provide verifiable references that your cited prelates explicitly endorsed the Star of Rempham, I conclude that you have attempted to mislead readers at CI. Of course, artists have inserted all manner of hidden messages and occult symbolism (and personal insults), but the mere fact that some subversives managed to sneak such elements into art and architecture is NOT a Magisterial endorsement of such symbolism and you should NOT soft-soap their use by attempting to implicate innocent prelates as accomplices.

    If you already had in hand some Magisterial endorsement of the Star of Rempham, you'd be expected to have adduced it with your first defense of its use. If you can belatedly scrounge up such an endorsement, I'd be quite interested to see it.

    Meanwhile the Star of Rempham is so well-docuмented in its ancient diabolical origins and adoption by the ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan (deceitfully as a Star of "David"), it barely warranted a blurb at https://judaism.is/paganism.html#star


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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Immaculata’s new altar installed, St. Marys KS
    « Reply #39 on: March 03, 2023, 09:02:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: TheRealMcCoy on March 03, 2023, 11:02:06 AM
    In case anyone forgot Jesus was a Jєω.........

    You've been on CI for 8 years, so it is difficult to give you the benefit of the doubt.

    The use of "Jesus was a Jєω" is virtually always in the context of an effort to elevate today's тαℓмυdic Jєωs. It is diabolical indeed that you and the ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan pretend that Jesus was one of them. Now, to give themselves cover, they now use the Holy Name of Jesus, the One they hate most, the One whose blood they called down on themselves and all their generations, the One they say was an idolater [Sanhedrin 43a, 107b], the One they say was a mamzer (bastard) conceived adulterously in niddah (menstrual filth) by a Roman soldier named Pandera [Kallah 51a] of a whore [Sanhedrin 106a] and that He is now in Hell boiling in feces and, in some editions because Jesus is accused of sɛҳuąƖ perversion, semen [Gittin 57a].

    тαℓмυdic Jєωs boast that they follow the Pharisees, hence they are the "proselytes" who are the children of Hell twofold more than the Pharisees themselves. Matthew 23:15

    Why would you make such an inescapable inference?

    Do you even have a glimmer of the modern origin and misuse of the word "Jєω"?      https://tinyurl.com/53f2xy42


    https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=23&l=15-#x





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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Immaculata’s new altar installed, St. Marys KS
    « Reply #40 on: March 04, 2023, 09:03:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: TheRealMcCoy on March 03, 2023, 11:02:06 AM
    In case anyone forgot Jesus was a Jєω.........
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    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Cornelius

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    Re: Immaculata’s new altar installed, St. Marys KS
    « Reply #41 on: March 14, 2023, 12:52:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: LeDeg on March 03, 2023, 06:48:17 PM
    It appears that he has done at least one Lutheran church as well as a Methodist one.


    https://www.civiumarchitects.com/sacred

    Oof. That's like having an atheist write hymns. 
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    Offline Cornelius

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    Re: Immaculata’s new altar installed, St. Marys KS
    « Reply #42 on: March 14, 2023, 12:59:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mark 79 on March 03, 2023, 08:32:39 PM
    "project conceived" ≠ "vetted every detail, including the stars of Rempham"

    "praise and support of the Shrine" ≠ "aware of every detail, incl    uding the stars of Rempham"

    In view of the diabolical significance of the Star of Rempham, I'm calling "bullsh*t" on your attempt to infer that a litany of Popes and Cardinal Gibbons specifically knew of and "imprimatured" the Stars of Rempham.

    Unless you can provide verifiable references that your cited prelates explicitly endorsed the Star of Rempham, I conclude that you have attempted to mislead readers at CI. Of course, artists have inserted all manner of hidden messages and occult symbolism (and personal insults), but the mere fact that some subversives managed to sneak such elements into art and architecture is NOT a Magisterial endorsement of such symbolism and you should NOT soft-soap their use by attempting to implicate innocent prelates as accomplices.

    If you already had in hand some Magisterial endorsement of the Star of Rempham, you'd be expected to have adduced it with your first defense of its use. If you can belatedly scrounge up such an endorsement, I'd be quite interested to see it.

    Meanwhile the Star of Rempham is so well-docuмented in its ancient diabolical origins and adoption by the ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan (deceitfully as a Star of "David"), it barely warranted a blurb at https://judaism.is/paganism.html#star




    That symbol is found everywhere. Jєωs didn't even start using it as a specifically "Jєωιѕн symbol" until the middle ages. If you're condemning that SSPX basilica because it has that shape on it then you condemn the SSPX because they would know the design of something so prominent. It isn't like it's tucked away behind a statue or something. It's extremely prominent and obvious. Think for 2 seconds.
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Immaculata’s new altar installed, St. Marys KS
    « Reply #43 on: March 14, 2023, 04:09:15 PM »
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Immaculata’s new altar installed, St. Marys KS
    « Reply #44 on: March 14, 2023, 05:41:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cornelius on March 14, 2023, 12:59:29 PM
    That symbol is found everywhere. Jєωs didn't even start using it as a specifically "Jєωιѕн symbol" until the middle ages. If you're condemning that SSPX basilica because it has that shape on it then you condemn the SSPX because they would know the design of something so prominent. It isn't like it's tucked away behind a statue or something. It's extremely prominent and obvious. Think for 2 seconds.

    "the SSPX… would know"— What rubbish.

    "the SSPX… would know" that Zionism is anti-Christ, yet they embraced Rotschild-Guttman money and Krah

    "the SSPX… would know" that the h0Ɩ0cαųst narrative is dubious, yet they tossed Bp. Williamson in the gutter.

    "the SSPX… would know" … :laugh2:


    "Think for 2 seconds"???  Well… I have thought and researched for decades.


    Quote from: Mark 79 on March 03, 2023, 08:32:39 PM
    "project conceived" ≠ "vetted every detail, including the stars of Rempham"

    "praise and support of the Shrine" ≠ "aware of every detail, incl    uding the stars of Rempham"

    In view of the diabolical significance of the Star of Rempham, I'm calling "bullsh*t" on your attempt to infer that a litany of Popes and Cardinal Gibbons specifically knew of and "imprimatured" the Stars of Rempham.

    Unless you can provide verifiable references that your cited prelates explicitly endorsed the Star of Rempham, I conclude that you have attempted to mislead readers at CI. Of course, artists have inserted all manner of hidden messages and occult symbolism (and personal insults), but the mere fact that some subversives managed to sneak such elements into art and architecture is NOT a Magisterial endorsement of such symbolism and you should NOT soft-soap their use by attempting to implicate innocent prelates as accomplices.

    If you already had in hand some Magisterial endorsement of the Star of Rempham, you'd be expected to have adduced it     with your first defense of its use. If you can belatedly scrounge up such an endorsement, I'd be quite interested to see it.

    Meanwhile the Star of Rempham is so well-docuмented in its ancient diabolical origins and adoption by the ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan (deceitfully as a Star of "David"), it barely warranted a blurb at https://judaism.is/paganism.html#star…



    Almost 2 weeks have passed since I challenged your faction and still not a shred of Magisterium, just gratuitous inference.

    P.S.  The ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan has adopted the swastika, but are quite embarrassedly silent about that fact:

    https://judaism.is/world-wars.html#swastika


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