Author Topic: Children’s Ballet  (Read 656 times)

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Offline Carissima

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Children’s Ballet
« on: December 07, 2017, 01:11:18 AM »
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  • I was recently considering taking my children to a local ballet performance of The Nutcracker done by a children’s ballet company. 
    I decided to look into whether or not The Church had anything to say on attending theatre and came across this article on TIA. 

    http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/k026pDance.html

    I was surprised that dances have been forbidden in the past and even excommunication was mentioned in an encyclical I believe..aren’t those still binding?
    I have a sister’s wedding to help plan and wondering if I should mention to her the possibility of no dancing?

    If anyone could add their own thoughts on this it would be greatly appreciated...

    Offline Carissima

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    Re: Children’s Ballet
    « Reply #1 on: December 07, 2017, 01:23:24 AM »
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  • From a history on ballet:


    ...’Christian religions had differing views on ballet as an art form. In 1666, the Catholic Church came against the ballet claiming that dancing “does nothing but excite the passions”. (Homans p. 31) Actors and dancers were excommunicated from the Catholic Church and denied a Christian burial.’

    http://faculty.ccri.edu/panaccione/Fa15/TheHistoryofBallet.pdf


    Offline Kreuzritter

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    Re: Children’s Ballet
    « Reply #2 on: December 07, 2017, 04:22:42 AM »
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  • The onlyy reference in the article is to the Council fo Trullo.

    Likewise, it reprobated, with similar penalties, the Roman customs of requiring perpetual continence (even outside times of serving at the altar) of those ordained to the diaconate or priesthood (canon 13), and fasting on Saturdays of Lent (canon 55). Without explicitly mentioning the Roman Church, it also reprobated celebration of the Eucharist on days in Lent other than Saturdays, Sundays, and the feast of the Annunciation (canon 52). While the Orthodox Church widely considers this council an addendum to the Fifth and Sixth Ecumenical Councils, adding its canons thereto[citation needed], the Roman Catholic Church has never accepted the council as authoritative or in any sense ecumenical. In the West, Venerable Bede calls it (in De sexta mundi aetate) a "reprobate" synod, and Paul the Deacon an "erratic" one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinisext_Council

    So much for THAT.

    As it stands, that "council" prohibited public dances by women, cross-dressing, the use of comic, satyric, and tragic masks, and the invocation of Bacchus during the Jaunuary Kalends and other festivals. So the context is clearly pagan ritual, not dance per se.

    http://allholyspirit.ne.goarch.org/about-orthodoxy/canon/ecf37the_canons_of_the_council_in_tru-bfb.html



    Quote
    When one considers the kinds of dances condemned in the 1920s and 1930s – the waltz, polka, ballet and masquerade balls


    :facepalm:

    "Condemned". Comdemned where and by whom? Some lone moralising bishop doesn't count.



    In a further article:

    Quote
    It suffices to record, among the older Councils, the Council of Constantinople, which says: “Public dances are prohibited under pain of excommunication.” The Council of Aix-la-Chapelle calls them “infamous things;” the Council of Rouen, a “great madness,” and the Council of Tours considers them “frauds and artifices of the Devil.”

    Again no source is given. There's nothing mentioned in here https://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/CONSTAN1.HTM and no context is given either. Which council at Aachen? it's not said. There is no "Council of Rouen". But a synod of Rouen banned "circle dances by women in the churchyard". So that sheds some light on the way in which these things are being twisted out of all context by the author, and whether intentional or unintentional, it smacks of intellectual dishonesty.

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=diMxDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT428&lpg=PT428&dq=dance+%22synod+of+rouen%22&source=bl&ots=wTWHMBSQdz&sig=qNv-VFsz_z1pWA-PEuaL32s0okI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiJ_7eR1ffXAhUFShQKHWLTDWcQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=dance%20%22synod%20of%20rouen%22&f=false









    Offline Kreuzritter

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    Re: Children’s Ballet
    « Reply #3 on: December 07, 2017, 04:46:42 AM »
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  • For the essay on ballet, here's the actual text it cites:

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-mIdyTLcUE8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=Apollo%27s+Angels:+A+History+of+Ballet&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZk_aD1_fXAhWBwBQKHadPAXQQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=1666&f=false

    So this "In 1666, the Catholic Church came against the ballet" is just false (I take it because the author of the essay doesn't understand what that "the Church" comign out against somethign means). With respect to excommunications, the book itself references Luc Benoist's History of Versailles and this https://archive.org/stream/lacivilitlti01franuoft/lacivilitlti01franuoft_djvu.txt. Though of course thsi sort of thing certainly did happen in places, but in the case cited below  St. Charles Borromeo was forced to lift the excommunications unconditionally by the Pope.

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=KlKT2sakrDMC&pg=PA254&lpg=PA254&dq=excommunicated+dancers&source=bl&ots=vEMxu8NkNe&sig=IATfncBwObYqLEHqk6Emf6BsRaE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwinpIDh2ffXAhVHuhQKHWlRA7YQ6AEIKzAB#v=onepage&q=excommunicated%20dancers&f=false


    But if you want to believe that a performance of the Nutcracker by a children's ballet company is somehow lascivious and an occasion of sin to be lumped into the same category as the Medieval equivalent of a nightclub, go ahead.



    Offline Kreuzritter

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    Re: Children’s Ballet
    « Reply #4 on: December 07, 2017, 07:39:47 AM »
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  • I see. Some coward votes me down, but refuses to actually engage. What is there to say, anyway, when I have alreayd demonstrated that the cited article quotes a reprobate council and that other articles on the matter contain lies. I can imagine the same person also believes in a panacake Earth.


    Offline GJC

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    Re: Children’s Ballet
    « Reply #5 on: December 07, 2017, 08:07:43 AM »
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  • I do not have children, but IMO, I would never let my daughter wear a tutu under any circumstance, so it would be easy for me to teach them (for the protection of their eyes), to turn their sight away from those wearing one.

    If I were asked why, I would simply ask: Would the Blessed Virgin Mary wear one, even in private?




    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Children’s Ballet
    « Reply #6 on: December 07, 2017, 08:55:14 AM »
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  • While I don't believe that there's any strict prohibition, I wouldn't go to one or take my family.  Many if not most of the costumes are immodest ... including the large crotch bulges on the men.  What's more, there's always a vibe of homosexuality in the males who perform ballet ... and I personally find that even more disturbing than the immodesty.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Children’s Ballet
    « Reply #7 on: December 07, 2017, 08:58:14 AM »
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  • I agree with the TIA article in that dancing itself is no intrinsically bad; but it becomes bad insofar as it favors bad morals. There are some dances which are fine. The folkloric ones, for example, which do not entice lust, romance, or other disordered passions by means of immodest dress or sensual movement. The problem with Ballet is twofold: the immodest outfits and the improper poses for Catholic girls (and boys). In the article, we find a simple criteria for parents to discern the appropriateness of dances:

    1. Dresses are modest
    2. Positions are appropriate
    3. Movements are decent
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Kreuzritter

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    Re: Children’s Ballet
    « Reply #8 on: December 07, 2017, 10:15:44 AM »
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  • I see nobody is concerned with the gross dishonesty of the articles. I guess the pornographic horrors of ballet outweigh sins aganist the Eigth Commandment.

    Offline Kreuzritter

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    Re: Children’s Ballet
    « Reply #9 on: December 07, 2017, 10:22:50 AM »
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  • I agree with the TIA article in that dancing itself is no intrinsically bad; but it becomes bad insofar as it favors bad morals. There are some dances which are fine. The folkloric ones, for example, which do not entice lust, romance, or other disordered passions by means of immodest dress or sensual movement. The problem with Ballet is twofold: the immodest outfits and the improper poses for Catholic girls (and boys). In the article, we find a simple criteria for parents to discern the appropriateness of dances:

    1. Dresses are modest
    2. Positions are appropriate
    3. Movements are decent
    CONTEXT.
    Is it unacceptable to watch boxing because the men are shirtless?
    Is it immodest to wear a wetsuit when diving because it shows the figure?
    Did Michaelangelo turn the Sistine Chapel into a "brothel"?


    Philistinism. If anyone sees near occasion or occasion to sin against the Sixth Commandment in watching classical ballet, perhaps the problem lies with HIM, in which case he should be averting his eyes from it, not moralising to those for whom it in an entirely innocent celebration of art and the beauty of the human form and movement that God created.


    Offline Kreuzritter

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    Re: Children’s Ballet
    « Reply #10 on: December 07, 2017, 10:28:41 AM »
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  • If I were asked why, I would simply ask: Would the Blessed Virgin Mary wear one, even in private?
    I don't know. What's the dress code for the saints in Heaven who are in principle incapable of sinning?
    Apparently God created the human body in order to be covered up, rather than creating clothing for a fallen man in order to cover his shame.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Children’s Ballet
    « Reply #11 on: December 07, 2017, 10:46:13 AM »
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  • CONTEXT.
    Is it unacceptable to watch boxing because the men are shirtless?
    Is it immodest to wear a wetsuit when diving because it shows the figure?
    Did Michaelangelo turn the Sistine Chapel into a "brothel"?


    Philistinism. If anyone sees near occasion or occasion to sin against the Sixth Commandment in watching classical ballet, perhaps the problem lies with HIM, in which case he should be averting his eyes from it, not moralising to those for whom it in an entirely innocent celebration of art and the beauty of the human form and movement that God created.

    It's not just about what's an occasion of sin but about what's appropriate and decent.  I would not suffer the slightest temptation watching a ballet.  I just find that the poses and outfits are vulgar and immodest ... and won't watch out of principle.  I call BS on your "entirely innocent celebration of ... the beauty of the human form".

    Indeed, I would whitewash the Sistine chapel ceiling, or, rather sandblast it so that it can never be "restored".  Michaelangelo's repugnant homoerotic art should find no place in a church.  Again, it causes me no temptation ... but it's repugnant and out of place.  Should I walk into a church with my butt hanging out of my pants?

    St. Paul speaks about modesty of dress from the perspective of what is fitting for a temple of the Holy Spirit.

    Showing up in a sweatshirt at Mass is wrong (unless it's all you have) ... not because it might cause temptations but because it is not fitting for the house of God.

    Women should not watch boxing because it would be inappropriate ... whether or not they'd be "tempted".


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Children’s Ballet
    « Reply #12 on: December 07, 2017, 10:48:29 AM »
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  • I don't know. What's the dress code for the saints in Heaven who are in principle incapable of sinning?
    Apparently God created the human body in order to be covered up, rather than creating clothing for a fallen man in order to cover his shame.

    So you imagine Our Lady and Our Lord prancing around heaven in the nude, do you?

    Offline Carissima

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    Re: Children’s Ballet
    « Reply #13 on: December 07, 2017, 11:05:41 AM »
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  • But if you want to believe that a performance of the Nutcracker by a children's ballet company is somehow lascivious and an occasion of sin to be lumped into the same category as the Medieval equivalent of a nightclub, go ahead.
    I’m sorry I don’t remember giving my opinion on the matter yet, I only asked a question and left two articles for people to read so we could discuss. 

    Offline Carissima

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    Re: Children’s Ballet
    « Reply #14 on: December 07, 2017, 11:11:13 AM »
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  • While I don't believe that there's any strict prohibition, I wouldn't go to one or take my family.  Many if not most of the costumes are immodest ... including the large crotch bulges on the men.  What's more, there's always a vibe of homosexuality in the males who perform ballet ... and I personally find that even more disturbing than the immodesty.
    Yes I would have to agree with you, the homosexual vibe is a problem in theatre companies and I find it more disturbing also. That was something I hadn’t considered or rather forgot it was such a prominent issue. 

     

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