Catholic Info

Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: Carissima on December 07, 2017, 01:11:18 AM

Title: Children’s Ballet
Post by: Carissima on December 07, 2017, 01:11:18 AM
I was recently considering taking my children to a local ballet performance of The Nutcracker done by a children’s ballet company. 
I decided to look into whether or not The Church had anything to say on attending theatre and came across this article on TIA. 

http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/k026pDance.html (http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/k026pDance.html)

I was surprised that dances have been forbidden in the past and even excommunication was mentioned in an encyclical I believe..aren’t those still binding?
I have a sister’s wedding to help plan and wondering if I should mention to her the possibility of no dancing?

If anyone could add their own thoughts on this it would be greatly appreciated...
Title: Re: Children’s Ballet
Post by: Carissima on December 07, 2017, 01:23:24 AM
From a history on ballet:


...’Christian religions had differing views on ballet as an art form. In 1666, the Catholic Church came against the ballet claiming that dancing “does nothing but excite the passions”. (Homans p. 31) Actors and dancers were excommunicated from the Catholic Church and denied a Christian burial.’

http://faculty.ccri.edu/panaccione/Fa15/TheHistoryofBallet.pdf (http://faculty.ccri.edu/panaccione/Fa15/TheHistoryofBallet.pdf)
Title: Re: Children’s Ballet
Post by: Ladislaus on December 07, 2017, 08:55:14 AM
While I don't believe that there's any strict prohibition, I wouldn't go to one or take my family.  Many if not most of the costumes are immodest ... including the large crotch bulges on the men.  What's more, there's always a vibe of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity in the males who perform ballet ... and I personally find that even more disturbing than the immodesty.
Title: Re: Children’s Ballet
Post by: Cantarella on December 07, 2017, 08:58:14 AM
I agree with the TIA article in that dancing itself is no intrinsically bad; but it becomes bad insofar as it favors bad morals. There are some dances which are fine. The folkloric ones, for example, which do not entice lust, romance, or other disordered passions by means of immodest dress or sensual movement. The problem with Ballet is twofold: the immodest outfits and the improper poses for Catholic girls (and boys). In the article, we find a simple criteria for parents to discern the appropriateness of dances:

1. Dresses are modest
2. Positions are appropriate
3. Movements are decent
Title: Re: Children’s Ballet
Post by: Ladislaus on December 07, 2017, 10:46:13 AM
CONTEXT.
Is it unacceptable to watch boxing because the men are shirtless?
Is it immodest to wear a wetsuit when diving because it shows the figure?
Did Michaelangelo turn the Sistine Chapel into a "brothel"?


Philistinism. If anyone sees near occasion or occasion to sin against the Sixth Commandment in watching classical ballet, perhaps the problem lies with HIM, in which case he should be averting his eyes from it, not moralising to those for whom it in an entirely innocent celebration of art and the beauty of the human form and movement that God created.

It's not just about what's an occasion of sin but about what's appropriate and decent.  I would not suffer the slightest temptation watching a ballet.  I just find that the poses and outfits are vulgar and immodest ... and won't watch out of principle.  I call BS on your "entirely innocent celebration of ... the beauty of the human form".

Indeed, I would whitewash the Sistine chapel ceiling, or, rather sandblast it so that it can never be "restored".  Michaelangelo's repugnant homoerotic art should find no place in a church.  Again, it causes me no temptation ... but it's repugnant and out of place.  Should I walk into a church with my butt hanging out of my pants?

St. Paul speaks about modesty of dress from the perspective of what is fitting for a temple of the Holy Spirit.

Showing up in a sweatshirt at Mass is wrong (unless it's all you have) ... not because it might cause temptations but because it is not fitting for the house of God.

Women should not watch boxing because it would be inappropriate ... whether or not they'd be "tempted".

Title: Re: Children’s Ballet
Post by: Ladislaus on December 07, 2017, 10:48:29 AM
I don't know. What's the dress code for the saints in Heaven who are in principle incapable of sinning?
Apparently God created the human body in order to be covered up, rather than creating clothing for a fallen man in order to cover his shame.

So you imagine Our Lady and Our Lord prancing around heaven in the nude, do you?
Title: Re: Children’s Ballet
Post by: Carissima on December 07, 2017, 11:05:41 AM

But if you want to believe that a performance of the Nutcracker by a children's ballet company is somehow lascivious and an occasion of sin to be lumped into the same category as the Medieval equivalent of a nightclub, go ahead.
I’m sorry I don’t remember giving my opinion on the matter yet, I only asked a question and left two articles for people to read so we could discuss. 
Title: Re: Children’s Ballet
Post by: Carissima on December 07, 2017, 11:11:13 AM
While I don't believe that there's any strict prohibition, I wouldn't go to one or take my family.  Many if not most of the costumes are immodest ... including the large crotch bulges on the men.  What's more, there's always a vibe of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity in the males who perform ballet ... and I personally find that even more disturbing than the immodesty.
Yes I would have to agree with you, the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ vibe is a problem in theatre companies and I find it more disturbing also. That was something I hadn’t considered or rather forgot it was such a prominent issue. 
Title: Re: Children’s Ballet
Post by: Carissima on December 07, 2017, 11:23:09 AM
I agree with the TIA article in that dancing itself is no intrinsically bad; but it becomes bad insofar as it favors bad morals. There are some dances which are fine. The folkloric ones, for example, which do not entice lust, romance, or other disordered passions by means of immodest dress or sensual movement. The problem with Ballet is twofold: the immodest outfits and the improper poses for Catholic girls (and boys). In the article, we find a simple criteria for parents to discern the appropriateness of dances:

1. Dresses are modest
2. Positions are appropriate
3. Movements are decent
I do like the idea of folkloric dancing because it is much more modest than most modern dancing and always has a charming theme as well. 
My children are mostly German and Italian so it would be fun to search out performances by these and other nationalities as well. I think Irish dancing is just lovely. 
Title: Re: Children’s Ballet
Post by: Carissima on December 07, 2017, 11:31:10 AM
Indeed, I would whitewash the Sistine chapel ceiling, or, rather sandblast it so that it can never be "restored".  Michaelangelo's repugnant homoerotic art should find no place in a church.  Again, it causes me no temptation ... but it's repugnant and out of place.  
Indeed, just because it is in the Sistine Chapel does not make it ok. I would do the same given the chance.  :applause:
Title: Re: Children’s Ballet
Post by: Ladislaus on December 07, 2017, 12:07:58 PM
Indeed, just because it is in the Sistine Chapel does not make it ok. I would do the same given the chance.  :applause:

Yes, I can just imagine being a priest, offering Mass there, elevating the Sacred Host, looking up at Him, only to see male genitalia dangling right next to Our Lord.
Title: Re: Children’s Ballet
Post by: Marlelar on December 09, 2017, 11:17:52 PM
Yes I would have to agree with you, the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ vibe is a problem in theatre companies and I find it more disturbing also. That was something I hadn’t considered or rather forgot it was such a prominent issue.


I've seen various performances of the Nutcracker and classical ballets but have never noticed any with a "ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ vibe".  
Title: Re: Children’s Ballet
Post by: Carissima on December 10, 2017, 12:10:44 AM

I've seen various performances of the Nutcracker and classical ballets but have never noticed any with a "ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ vibe".  
I think it may be more common in certain cities where being gαy is very popular and encouraged even. ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs, male and female are very open where I live, and it would make sense they’d be performing in local theatre here. 
Title: Re: Children’s Ballet
Post by: Ladislaus on December 10, 2017, 08:06:40 AM

I've seen various performances of the Nutcracker and classical ballets but have never noticed any with a "ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ vibe".  

Uhm, every guy who does ballet has ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ vibe.  But then women's "gαydars" are not nearly as sensitive as those of men.
Title: Re: Children’s Ballet
Post by: shin on December 10, 2017, 04:08:04 PM

Amen to sandblasting the Sistine chapel ceiling.

Abbe Henri-Louis Hulot's book on dancing contains many references and citations.
Title: Re: Children’s Ballet
Post by: Maria Regina on December 11, 2017, 01:17:25 AM
We are to glorify God.

Instead, people are glorifying creatures rather than the Creator.

Isn't that why God did not want Israel to have Kings?
God knew that there is always a tendency to worship kings,
and that unjust kings would impose draconian hardships on their people.
Didn't the Romans worship their emperors as deities during the time of Christ?

Buildings that are dedicated as Churches should glorify God, not humanity.
Paintings, adornments, and icons in the Churches should remind one of heaven,
and should be windows into heaven, so that our minds are elevated to the divine.

Title: Re: Children’s Ballet
Post by: Mega-fin on December 13, 2017, 06:46:52 PM
TIA is definitely fringe, and not always the most intellectually honest. I wouldn’t hold much weight in their articles. 

I think St Jean Marie Vianney dealt very well with the matter of dancing. 
https://www.olrl.org/snt_docs/dancing.shtml

I can’t say it would be a mortal sin to attend per se, but when it comes to these things, should children be dressed in skin tight clothing? It would obviously be a sin for an adult to wear, so why say it’s ok for children, just because they haven’t hit puberty?