I don't mean to nitpick here but do you notice that the men that play instruments in symphony orchestras are some of the biggest effeminates and wimps you ever did see, while the women who play instruments in the symphony are disgusting? Don't get me wrong I appreciate the arts and enjoy classical music, but it is quite noticeable that they always have people who obsess over playing classical music their whole life in the orchestra, instead of people who are well-rounded and can do many things. It is also noticeable the women who play in an orchestra have little to no children and also obsess over playing instruments, instead of being a mother.

Oh, no!  I wouldn't dare risk doing that!

Stop with the bullshit sarcasm.

i]Your[/i] inexplicably hostile attitude is--at its most charitable--absurd.

Really? As a normal person I don't obsess over classical music as there are so many better things in life, and different genres of music too.

Music is not an obsession--it's their focus!  Which is entirely sensible.

Wow they must have a very dull life then if that is their only focus. :wink: For men there are important things like actually working for a living or fighting. Any cultural ability of a nation is secondary if the men are soft and mushy. As for women while I support women doing some arts that is again secondary to being a mother.

[/i] complaints are literally ridiculous.

As are yours. :wink:

The style of music played by symphony orchestras tends to be over-sophisticated, lacking in the straightforward manliness of more ancient music. This might have something to do with the character of the professional performers. Probably the social milieu they inhabit is progressive, too. 'Artists,' you know.

What symphony musicians play is what the composer wrote as he wrote it to be played and their sheet music reflects this.  You only deviate from what the composer wrote if you want to do your own arrangement; then you make it clear it is your own arrangement.  So for Classical music (which I think is what you are talking about here), you need to put any blame you have on the world's most beloved composers such as Beethoven, and Mahler and Rachmaninoff, etc.  Same with anything by Horner or Morricone who are more modern-day orchestral composers...  You play what they wrote as written or the public will want their money back and you lose your reputation.  As a matter of fact, a musician in an orchestra cannot play something in their own style or else they would stand out.  All the people playing each type of instrument must play at the same level of sound.  And if it's a string instrument (cello, viola, violin) they must all bow in the same direction as a group so no one stands out.  

Soloists sometimes have their own style if they play outside of a symphony and not just a solo part IN a symphonic piece.  That is where the "artist" component comes into play.  Even so, if they say they are going to play X by Beethoven, they'd better play it the way he wrote it unless they specify it is their own rendition.    

I can understand some people not liking this type of music and preferring other styles.  But Classical is the most difficult to play and lays the foundation from which all the other styles develop as it embodies all the technical skills the other styles use to any degree.  That is one reason why symphony lovers attend symphonies--to not just hear the music but watch with what execution it is performed.  And this is why most students of music learn Classical first.  Many Classical pieces were written as pieces to teach how to do certain techniques.  Bach did this a lot with the more common pieces you hear.  

If you want "manly," try John Philip Sousa's marches or the 1812 Overture.  There's plenty more after that.  

Playing music to praise God goes all the way back to the psalms where David wrote about praising God with the lute and the harp and probably earlier than that.  Bach wrote all his music "for the glory of God."  Are you familiar with his organ works?  He certainly was "manly."  Mozart and Chopin were Catholic.  

I'm now playing "Santa Maria Mater Dei" by Mozart on the violin.  It has taken me years to be able to do this and it still needs much more work.  It's a prayer dedicating oneself to Our Lady.  Absolutely exquisite!  To hear a symphonic orchestra play this--oh!!!  It's my way of thanking Her for giving birth to our Savior.  (lyrics below)  Have a listen--it's on YouTube.

Have you ever heard Bach's Christmas Oratorio?  It is well worth the listen.  Also on YouTube.  What joy is expressed even at the very beginning--a Savior is born!!!!  Trumpets express mankind's joy!  You cannot listen to that and remain unmoved.  It raises your soul to God.  

Learning to play music is no waste of time for me.  It's a constant reminder of my need for God's grace in order to do it well.  It can be very humbling.  I even dedicate my practice time to God.  I'd be thrilled to be in an orchestra playing for Him.   I'm simply using the GIFT He has given me, the gift I feel so much drawn to use.  To ignore it would be to ignore part of His Will for me.  Trust me -- it IS a gift.  I can't draw or paint but I can sing and play by His grace only.  It is a perfect way to still the soul before praying.  Music can express what's in the heart much better than words in any language.

Lyrics in English (it is sung in Latin):

Holy Mary, Mother of God
I owe everything to you,
and from this moment I devote myself
uniquely to your service.
I choose you as protector,
you as preserver.
In my heart forever will be
your honor and worship,
which I will never forsake,
nor allow anyone subject me
to violate by word or deed.
Holy Mary, gracious,
receive me, suppliant at your feet:
protect me in life,
and at death's assize be my advocate.
Amen.

Mozart and Chopin were Catholic.  

I'm now playing "Santa Maria Mater Dei" by Mozart on the violin.  It has taken me years to be able to do this and it still needs much more work.  It's a prayer dedicating oneself to Our Lady.  Absolutely exquisite!  To hear a symphonic orchestra play this--oh!!!  It's my way of thanking Her for giving birth to our Savior.  (lyrics below)  Have a listen--it's on YouTube.

Have you ever heard Bach's Christmas Oratorio?  It is well worth the listen.  Also on YouTube.  What joy is expressed even at the very beginning--a Savior is born!!!!  Trumpets express mankind's joy!  You cannot listen to that and remain unmoved.  It raises your soul to God.  

Learning to play music is no waste of time for me.  It's a constant reminder of my need for God's grace in order to do it well.  It can be very humbling.  I even dedicate my practice time to God.  I'd be thrilled to be in an orchestra playing for Him.   I'm simply using the GIFT He has given me, the gift I feel so much drawn to use.  To ignore it would be to ignore part of His Will for me.  Trust me -- it IS a gift.  I can't draw or paint but I can sing and play by His grace only.  It is a perfect way to still the soul before praying.  Music can express what's in the heart much better than words in any language.

Lyrics in English (it is sung in Latin):

Holy Mary, Mother of God
I owe everything to you,
and from this moment I devote myself
uniquely to your service.
I choose you as protector,
you as preserver.
In my heart forever will be
your honor and worship,
which I will never forsake,
nor allow anyone subject me
to violate by word or deed.
Holy Mary, gracious,
receive me, suppliant at your feet:
protect me in life,
and at death's assize be my advocate.
Amen.

Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin and Bach are definitely exemplary artists, and I play Bach's Christmas Oratio every Christmas at my house, and Beethoven's Ninth Symphony any day of the year really. I just am of the opinion that the man (and woman) who plays in a symphony orchestra should be more well-rounded as they should be able to do other things which is why I support music as a hobby for adults, along with their main job.

Quote from: Graham

The style of music played by symphony orchestras tends to be over-sophisticated, lacking in the straightforward manliness of more ancient music. This might have something to do with the character of the professional performers. Probably the social milieu they inhabit is progressive, too. 'Artists,' you know.

Thank you for realizing my hope that someone would express what I thought in a way that would not sound 'barbaric'.

Glad I could help. I'd still like to hear your own thoughts about this.

I think a musician could be a saint, but I don't think it would be a wise or holy choice of profession since it requires a commitment that seems incompatible with raising a holy family.  The professional musician who would be a saint would seem to have to be single, and that state in life is the most difficult.

Exactly. For a man such a profession would be incompatible with making daily bread for his family, and as for a woman we know that women musicians make horrible mothers (although if done as a hobby women can play musical instruments well I'll admit).

I don't mean to nitpick here but do you notice that the men that play instruments in symphony orchestras are some of the biggest effeminates and wimps you ever did see, while the women who play instruments in the symphony are disgusting? Don't get me wrong I appreciate the arts and enjoy classical music, but it is quite noticeable that they always have people who obsess over playing classical music their whole life in the orchestra, instead of people who are well-rounded and can do many things. It is also noticeable the women who play in an orchestra have little to no children and also obsess over playing instruments, instead of being a mother.

Have you ever met anyone who plays instruments in a symphony orchestra?  Or do your ridiculous comments come from merely having "noticed" their characteristics?

In my experience, these are people who earn a their living by working extremely hard, developing a skill which has taken years to master.  They support families, have hobbies and outside interests.  They are professional musicians, that is what they work at, much like a doctor or a lawyer.  

You also said -

For a man such a profession would be incompatible with making daily bread for his family, and as for a woman we know that women musicians make horrible mothers (although if done as a hobby women can play musical instruments well I'll admit).

What do you base this nonsense on?  Your own prejudices?  

You congratulate yourself on your manly preferences here -

My nationalism is extremely masculine and promotes the greatness of the nation in all facets of life, and realises the uselessness of intellectual obsession that you obsess about. My nationalism sees the man as a soldier and worker ..... Even if the man becomes a scientist, musician, artist, professor, etc. he should still be physically healthy, done his military service, knows boxing, grappling, and takedowns against his foes, knows how to use firearms, and has done hard manual labor so he knows what his fellow man goes through.

Have you any idea what your fellow man goes through in becoming a scientist, musician, artist, professor?  Obviously not. Men who achieve skills and expertise in these field, earning a living and supporting families in the process are every bit as manly as the soldier.

But you betray yourself.  You "realise the uselessness of intellectual obsession".  That is the crux of your Philistine stance.  Who was that nαzι who said "Every time I hear the word intellectual I want to reach for my gun."  Was it Goebbels?

Sounds like you.