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Author Topic: Supplied Jurisdiction to Orthodox Bishops?  (Read 908 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Supplied Jurisdiction to Orthodox Bishops?
« on: June 02, 2023, 08:51:42 AM »
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    • In the famous SiSiNoNo study "The 1988 Episcopal Consecrations: A Theological Study" (written by the anonymous nun "Hirpinus," aligned to Don Putti's Cenacle in Italy), is contained this interesting quote:

    "It is significant that some theologians, hypothesize that the Church tacitly supplies jurisdiction also to the schismatic Orthodox bishops, so that with the consecration of other bishops as well as with the ordination of other priests, the necessity of so many souls is provided for.47
    https://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/SiSiNoNo/1999_July/The_1988_Consecrations.htm

    The citation is to Card.Journet, op. cit., vol.lI, pp.656-657. Fr. Tito Centi, O.P., in note 1 to the ST of St. Thomas, ed. Salani. II-II Q.39, A.4, he writes:

    "We have an indication in the fact that the Church does not demand a general confession of those schismatics who return to unity nor convalidation for their practicable matrimonial impediments."

    Question: What is the point of supplying jurisdiction to Orthodox bishops "so that souls are provided for (i.e., sanctified by grace)" if that sanctification is without salvific value (i.e., because they are outside the visible Church)?

    The implication seems to be, therefore, as I argued in the other thread, that some such souls are not "in" the Church, but nevertheless joined to it, if their ignorance is invincible.  Otherwise, why would the Church supply to provide for souls who, being in a state of grave sin, cannot receive any of the grace said jurisdiction for valid sacraments would gain them, and are ultimately damned anyway?
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Supplied Jurisdiction to Orthodox Bishops?
    « Reply #1 on: June 02, 2023, 09:00:11 AM »
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    • One possibility is that Journet and Centi are simply wrong, and the Church does not supply jurisdiction to the Orthodox (but then it becomes difficult to make sense of the "indications of jurisdiction" noted by Centi (i.e., no general confession or convalidation of marriages required upon reunification with Rome).

    On the other hand, presuming the SSPX has not been covertly reconciled to modernist Rome, do we not have in that strange relationship not merely a tacit and supplied jurisdiction for sacraments, but an explicit jurisdiction (e.g., confessions) to a community allegedly in schism?  And was not the reason adduced by Francis precisely the same as that mentioned by Journet and Centi (i.e., so that souls may be provided for), regardless of any additional motives, such as drawing the SSPX into conciliarism?
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Supplied Jurisdiction to Orthodox Bishops?
    « Reply #2 on: June 02, 2023, 09:57:33 AM »
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    • Quote
    The implication seems to be, therefore, as I argued in the other thread, that some such souls are not "in" the Church, but nevertheless joined to it, if their ignorance is invincible heresy is only material and not formal/obstinate. 
    Fixed it for you.  You toss around the term "invincible ignorance" so much that it loses meaning.  The orthodox are heretic/schismatic, not invincibly ignorant.  Some may, before death, turn back to the Church, which is why the Church wants to still provide sacraments.  Some may also die in their material heresy.  Many in formal heresy.  Only God knows.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Supplied Jurisdiction to Orthodox Bishops?
    « Reply #3 on: June 02, 2023, 10:33:18 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 02, 2023, 09:57:33 AM
    Some may, before death, turn back to the Church, which is why the Church wants to still provide sacraments.

    The quote in my post above specifically references Orthodox jurisdiction for marriage (among other sacraments):

    If Orthodox faithful converted to the Catholic Church, they would not be marrying in Orthodox churches, by Orthodox priests (nor would Orthodox marry one who joined the Catholic Church).

    So the question remains:

    Why would the Catholic Church endow Orthodox prelates with a tacit but frivolous grant of jurisdiction, if the sacraments dispensed through said jurisdiction have no salvific value (ie., because the schismatic is outside the body of the Church)?
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    Online Mithrandylan

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    Re: Supplied Jurisdiction to Orthodox Bishops?
    « Reply #4 on: June 02, 2023, 10:49:04 AM »
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    • Sean,

    It is the Church's right to exercise jurisdiction over all the baptized, everywhere in the world. Ordinarily, she chooses only to do this with members of the Catholic church, but even sometimes she exercises her jurisdiction over non-members (for instance, by binding even apostates who were baptized in the Catholic Church to observe her marriage laws). This is not meant to be an answer to your question, but I mention it simply as a highly relevant *principle* of ecclesiology for this question and others like it. 
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Supplied Jurisdiction to Orthodox Bishops?
    « Reply #5 on: June 02, 2023, 10:51:44 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan on June 02, 2023, 10:49:04 AM
    Sean,

    It is the Church's right to exercise jurisdiction over all the baptized, everywhere in the world. Ordinarily, she chooses only to do this with members of the Catholic church, but even sometimes she exercises her jurisdiction over non-members (for instance, by binding even apostates who were baptized in the Catholic Church to observe her marriage laws). This is not meant to be an answer to your question, but I mention it simply as a highly relevant *principle* of ecclesiology for this question and others like it.

    Thanks Mith.

    Yes, this is both indisputable and undisputed.
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    Offline Kephapaulos

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    Re: Supplied Jurisdiction to Orthodox Bishops?
    « Reply #6 on: June 02, 2023, 11:44:10 PM »
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    • This topic reminds me of Charles Coulombe saying that Saint Pius X approved of reception of sacraments between both Catholics and Orthodox during the Russo-Japanese War. I wonder if that was really true and what the justification would have been.
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    Offline Kephapaulos

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    Re: Supplied Jurisdiction to Orthodox Bishops?
    « Reply #7 on: June 02, 2023, 11:53:17 PM »
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    • I am also reminded of learning from a member at Fisheaters forum several years ago that the Catholic Church did not rescind jurisdiction for confessions given at the Council of Florence to the Orthodox. 
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    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: Supplied Jurisdiction to Orthodox Bishops?
    « Reply #8 on: June 03, 2023, 01:59:03 AM »
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    • Quote from: Kephapaulos on June 02, 2023, 11:53:17 PM
    I am also reminded of learning from a member at Fisheaters forum several years ago that the Catholic Church did not rescind jurisdiction for confessions given at the Council of Florence to the Orthodox.
    I'd assume the 1917 code would supersede this unless the 1917 code adapted this. Pius X did grant jurisdiction to orthodox in Russia for the sake of Russian Catholics however. One thing to note though is that the docuмent was kept secret possibly to avoid scandal. No one would even know that the letter exists if it weren't for the internet. Now, it is quite understandable as people would use it to justify illicit cases of communicatio in sacris such as schismatics receiving sacraments.
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    I recant many opinions on the crisis in the Church and moral theology that I have espoused on here from at least 2019-2021 don't take my postings from that time as well as 2022 possibly too seriously.
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