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Offline Matthew

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Sunday Shopping - How Christians crucify Christ
« on: December 18, 2007, 10:55:52 AM »
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    Offline Mousey

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    Sunday Shopping - How Christians crucify Christ
    « Reply #1 on: December 26, 2007, 01:32:17 PM »
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    It's not merely the shopping that is illicit on Sundays and Holy Days, but the transaction(s) (unless they are for such things as fuel, recreation to be utilized that day).  In other words, if you are making a purchase over the internet, that still counts as an unncessary transaction.

    Catholics sites are not excluded from this, I don't think.  Is it right for a Catholic site to send solicitations for a big sale to end on a Holy Day?   I would think so, since it is encouraging people to pay for rights/membership before or on that day.  (I am saying this because I received an advertisement from one such website that had a special that "ends on Christmas!")


    Offline Matthew

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    Sunday Shopping - How Christians crucify Christ
    « Reply #2 on: December 26, 2007, 01:38:21 PM »
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  • I'm not so sure about that one -- unless you spend all day shopping or something.

    The fact is that a web server doesn't need/get to take Sunday off to worship God. So if you place an order, you're staying at home, selecting a product, typing a few numbers, and you're done. The whole thing might only take 2 minutes. That is certainly not servile work.

    If you're buying CATHOLIC items, then it's even a good thing. Some people are busy, and they won't otherwise have time to browse for statues, books, music, etc. It can be very relaxing for some people to surf the Net on Sunday. Some people actually enjoy browsing, especially for objects they are interested in.

    This presumes that you also go to Mass, avoid servile work, etc.

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    Offline Mousey

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    Sunday Shopping - How Christians crucify Christ
    « Reply #3 on: December 26, 2007, 06:20:26 PM »
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  • Quote from: ChantCd
    I'm not so sure about that one -- unless you spend all day shopping or something.

    The fact is that a web server doesn't need/get to take Sunday off to worship God. So if you place an order, you're staying at home, selecting a product, typing a few numbers, and you're done. The whole thing might only take 2 minutes. That is certainly not servile work.

    If you're buying CATHOLIC items, then it's even a good thing. Some people are busy, and they won't otherwise have time to browse for statues, books, music, etc. It can be very relaxing for some people to surf the Net on Sunday. Some people actually enjoy browsing, especially for objects they are interested in.

    This presumes that you also go to Mass, avoid servile work, etc.

    Matthew


    Matthew, I didn't mean that web servers had to keep holy Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation (I'm sorry but that's how I understood what you had inferred I meant).  Web servers, however, do not direct us to fail to keep Sunday's and Holy Days of Obligation holy, we do.  MOST forms of public commerce are forbidden on these days.   (The web would be considered public, even while people often use it in the privacy of their own home.)  Direct advertisements via emails is planned by the companies, not the ad agencies they hire or their long-distance data communication providers.  When a company has an email campaign targeting it's prospective consumers and asking them to make a purchase of a service (which is not an essential) by or on a Sunday or a Holy Day, this is not morally correct.    Here's an example:  a book for spiritual reading is acceptable, since it is to orient oneself both exteriorly AND interiorly to God, however, purchasing "Catholic clothing", such as a tshirt with Catholic insignia, or (for the women) a long skirt, this is not the same thing as the last is not keeping the interior directed to God.  The last example is superfluous, although we need clothes, wearing them doesn't orient ourselves to Christ, it's just a necessity.  If all our clothes were burned in a fire, we'd still have Monday to purchase new ones, or if not, we would require dispensation.

    While it's not servile work, but it's profaning Sunday and Holy Days.  We aren't supposed to buy and sell unless and make needless financial transactions.   In most circuмstances, unnecessary transactions are to be avoided.  If I drove to pick up Chinese take-away on a Sunday or Holy Day, that would be a sin, actually.  However, if I invited friends and ate at a restaurant as a shared recreation, it would be permissible.  I'm not making this stuff up.  

    BTW, the catholic site I was referring to was a service that does not sell Catholic items or even "Catholic" service, in the sense that it is a service that guarantees Catholicity.  I would be very hard-pressed, to say the least, that this service is at the level of purchasing sacramentals or holy books.  

    If we needed fuel for our car, that would be acceptable, as well as having to pick up a perscription or something that we might need for our health if there is clearly an immediate need.  If while we are out, we decide to pick up a few items for the week, that would be a sin, and depending on their cost and the time spent doing this, it could even be a mortal sin.  Just merely forgetting that it's Sunday, and picking up an item or two for yourself out of convenience because you're in their to purchase medicine, would be a venial sin.

    Purchasing an item for a gift to be given that day is not a sin, but it is not recommended because it can be a cause for scandal.

    Sundays and Holy Days are days in which the faithful are not only to show their devotion to God exteriorly, but also interiorly throughout the entire day.  Too many people nowadays make too many excuses to not practice keeping Sundays and Holy Days sacred --- and even going to Mass is not enough to fulfill this obligation.

    Offline Adesto

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    Sunday Shopping - How Christians crucify Christ
    « Reply #4 on: January 16, 2008, 03:39:54 AM »
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  • The whole working-on-Sunday issue gets me confused as well. I sometimes get asked to cover at work on a Sunday and while I often refuse, sometimes I've worked because there's no-one else to work or whatever. I was a bit concerned about it and asked a traditional priest, who said that if I'm working in a job that provides a service, such as a hotel or pharmacy, it would be OK as its a necessary job. The same for emergency services, doctors, petrol station operators etc. That made sense to me so I didn't have a problem with working, but then a different traditional priest told me that it's a mortal sin! I'm confused!

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    Offline Pravoslavni

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    Sunday Shopping - How Christians crucify Christ
    « Reply #5 on: January 16, 2008, 04:17:25 PM »
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  • I am under the impression that it is forbidden to go to a movie, or patronize in any way, any business establishment on a Sunday, because such business is what keeps store open, and employees working on Sundays.

    Offline Mousey

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    Sunday Shopping - How Christians crucify Christ
    « Reply #6 on: January 16, 2008, 06:33:55 PM »
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  • Quote from: Adesto
    The whole working-on-Sunday issue gets me confused as well. I sometimes get asked to cover at work on a Sunday and while I often refuse, sometimes I've worked because there's no-one else to work or whatever. I was a bit concerned about it and asked a traditional priest, who said that if I'm working in a job that provides a service, such as a hotel or pharmacy, it would be OK as its a necessary job. The same for emergency services, doctors, petrol station operators etc. That made sense to me so I didn't have a problem with working, but then a different traditional priest told me that it's a mortal sin! I'm confused!


    Our priest says that we should avoid working on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation when we can.  In other words, if we are a doctor and we are called into work, then we must work that day.  But if we are a doctor and choose to work that day not because there is an emergency but because we want to make an extra buck, that is a mortal sin.  It's the same for any job.  If we MUST work on a Sunday or a Holy Day because either we need the money in order to pay for essential things such as food and shelter then it is ok to work, but we should first get a dispensation from a priest.  If we don't necessarily need the money, but we will risk losing our job if we don't work on one of these days, then we must get a dispensation.  If we run a farm, or a business that does not allow for a Sunday or Holy Day to be a day of rest, then we are dispensed, under the same rules as above:  the work must be absolutely necessary to be done that day and even then again, it would be advisable to both discuss this with a priest and obtain a dispensation.

    Offline Mousey

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    Sunday Shopping - How Christians crucify Christ
    « Reply #7 on: January 16, 2008, 06:38:26 PM »
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  • Quote from: Pravoslavni
    I am under the impression that it is forbidden to go to a movie, or patronize in any way, any business establishment on a Sunday, because such business is what keeps store open, and employees working on Sundays.


    If you need to purchase something in an emergency, or say, for example, medicine, then it is not forbidden.  If it is recreation conducive to helping the soul, then it is not forbidden --- we shouldn't scrupulize over what the hidden situation is of a another person.  Those employees (and even their managers) might not know that it is sinful to work on Sunday, believe-it-or-not, let alone know when it is a Holy Day.  Many of those employees rely on that money to live, and some stores (the ones that we would need to frequent, say for an example, in an emergency).

    I generally don't like the idea of going out to purchase dinner on a Sunday.   The movies all-together are something I avoid any day of the week.


    Offline Matthew

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    Sunday Shopping - How Christians crucify Christ
    « Reply #8 on: January 16, 2008, 06:54:25 PM »
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  • I can see not running a promotion that ENDS on Sunday -- which would encourage Catholics to do shopping that day.

    But let's put it this way -- even the most Catholic of websites aren't "disabled" or "closed" for Sunday.

    Several people here have quoted priests' advice for Sunday -- which I pretty much agree with -- but how many priests have mentioned e-commerce in particular? Because I don't think it's self-evident that placing a web order is a "public transaction" -- especially since there's only one human party (the buyer) and this sole party is sitting on his duff at home.

    I think Internet shopping is in the same category as using the Net in general. Too much surfing the web could interfere with the proper celebration of Sunday (rest, recreation, time for extra spiritual activities -- reading, meditating, praying, etc. as well as other good works).

    Matthew
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    Offline JoanScholastica

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    « Reply #9 on: January 17, 2008, 12:48:26 AM »
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  • Offline Magdalene

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    Sunday Shopping - How Christians crucify Christ
    « Reply #10 on: January 17, 2008, 01:03:26 AM »
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  • I saw nothing in the new Catechism of the Catholic Church (drawn up by JPII) that says we can not go grocery shopping or to restaurants on Sunday. So I don't think the strict rules apply any longer. This is all that it said:

    2184 Just as God "rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done,"[121] human life has a rhythm of work and rest. The institution of the Lord's Day helps everyone enjoy adequate rest and leisure to cultivate their familial, cultural, social, and religious lives.[122]

    2185 On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are to refrain from engaging in work or activities that hinder the worship owed to God, the joy proper to the Lord's Day, the performance of the works of mercy, and the appropriate relaxation of mind and body.[123] Family needs or important social service can legitimately excuse from the obligation of Sunday rest. The faithful should see to it that legitimate excuses do not lead to habits prejudicial to religion, family life, and health.
    The charity of truth seeks holy leisure- the necessity of charity accepts just work.[124]

    2186 Those Christians who have leisure should be mindful of their brethren who have the same needs and the same rights, yet cannot rest from work because of poverty and misery. Sunday is traditionally consecrated by Christian piety to good works and humble service of the sick, the infirm, and the elderly. Christians will also sanctify Sunday by devoting time and care to their families and relatives, often difficult to do on other days of the week. Sunday is a time for reflection, silence, cultivation of the mind, and meditation which furthers the growth of the Christian interior life.

    2187 Sanctifying Sundays and holy days requires a common effort. Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord's Day. Traditional activities (sport, restaurants, etc.), and social necessities (public services, etc.), require some people to work on Sundays, but everyone should still take care to set aside sufficient time for leisure. With temperance and charity the faithful will see to it that they avoid the excesses and violence sometimes associated with popular leisure activities. In spite of economic constraints, public authorities should ensure citizens a time intended for rest and divine worship. Employers have a similar obligation toward their employees.

    2188 In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church's holy days as legal holidays. They have to give everyone a public example of prayer, respect, and joy and defend their traditions as a precious contribution to the spiritual life of society. If a country's legislation or other reasons require work on Sunday, the day should nevertheless be lived as the day of our deliverance which lets us share in this "festal gathering," this "assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven."[125]



    Offline JoanScholastica

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    « Reply #11 on: January 17, 2008, 01:28:28 AM »
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  • Offline Magdalene

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    « Reply #12 on: January 17, 2008, 02:29:44 AM »
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  • Offline Pravoslavni

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    Sunday Shopping - How Christians crucify Christ
    « Reply #13 on: January 17, 2008, 10:37:37 AM »
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  • Quote from: Magdalene
    I saw nothing in the new Catechism of the Catholic Church (drawn up by JPII) that says we can not go grocery shopping or to restaurants on Sunday. So I don't think the strict rules apply any longer. This is all that it said:

    2184 Just as God "rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done,"[121] human life has a rhythm of work and rest. The institution of the Lord's Day helps everyone enjoy adequate rest and leisure to cultivate their familial, cultural, social, and religious lives.[122]

    2185 On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are to refrain from engaging in work or activities that hinder the worship owed to God, the joy proper to the Lord's Day, the performance of the works of mercy, and the appropriate relaxation of mind and body.[123] Family needs or important social service can legitimately excuse from the obligation of Sunday rest. The faithful should see to it that legitimate excuses do not lead to habits prejudicial to religion, family life, and health.
    The charity of truth seeks holy leisure- the necessity of charity accepts just work.[124]

    2186 Those Christians who have leisure should be mindful of their brethren who have the same needs and the same rights, yet cannot rest from work because of poverty and misery. Sunday is traditionally consecrated by Christian piety to good works and humble service of the sick, the infirm, and the elderly. Christians will also sanctify Sunday by devoting time and care to their families and relatives, often difficult to do on other days of the week. Sunday is a time for reflection, silence, cultivation of the mind, and meditation which furthers the growth of the Christian interior life.

    2187 Sanctifying Sundays and holy days requires a common effort. Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord's Day. Traditional activities (sport, restaurants, etc.), and social necessities (public services, etc.), require some people to work on Sundays, but everyone should still take care to set aside sufficient time for leisure. With temperance and charity the faithful will see to it that they avoid the excesses and violence sometimes associated with popular leisure activities. In spite of economic constraints, public authorities should ensure citizens a time intended for rest and divine worship. Employers have a similar obligation toward their employees.

    2188 In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church's holy days as legal holidays. They have to give everyone a public example of prayer, respect, and joy and defend their traditions as a precious contribution to the spiritual life of society. If a country's legislation or other reasons require work on Sunday, the day should nevertheless be lived as the day of our deliverance which lets us share in this "festal gathering," this "assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven."[125]



    Throw JPII's Chatechism out! It is a "sure norm for teaching," heresy that is!

    Offline Magdalene

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    « Reply #14 on: January 17, 2008, 11:28:15 PM »
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  • Quote from: Pravoslavni


    Throw JPII's Chatechism out! It is a "sure norm for teaching," heresy that is!


    But if the Church doesn't teach that anymore in its Catechism, then God will not hold us responsible for going to restaurants or shopping on Sunday. He will hold the Pope responsible for not clarifying the Lord's Day commandment more properly to Catholics.