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Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: Matthew on November 15, 2010, 12:29:02 PM
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There seems to be a controversy over whether the traditional Catholic "mega-community" at St. Mary's, KS is just what the doctor ordered for the times in which we live.
Here is an example of why I would be tempted to say NO:
My son, N..., has moved to St. Marys with his wife and two children - and one more on the way. This addition to the Assumption Chapel and Academy families is seeking a house to rent in town or near by if possible; three bedrooms a must. Also, N... has (skills omitted); he has a versatile background and will be looking for work to support that family. Anyone that has any suggestions on either or both both fronts - it would be appreciated if your run them by me. Please pray for this family.
Regards,
(Name withheld)
Should Catholics be more prudent and make sure they have a way to support themselves, rather than head for the "trad Catholic mecca" in blind faith that they'll find something when they get there?
I know of at least one SSPX priest who was highly critical of PRECISELY the case I quoted above. Moving to St. Marys, with no idea how you will support yourself.
"Because it's... well, St. Mary's! 5 Masses on Sunday! Come on!"
But St. Marys has it own problems as well. Let's just say people are more inclined to take the Faith for granted when it's so prevalent -- just like the 1950's all across America.
On the other hand, other prominent priests believed that St. Mary's is certainly a good thing, even though many residents are worldly, etc. -- after all, you can't change human nature or control people's Free Will. But you can't say that a Catholic environment is a bad thing.
I see the merit in this point of view as well.
I just wanted to start a conversation about this important topic.
Matthew
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I bet a LOT of people have been disappointed after a move to St. Mary's.
For many reasons.
I visited there for 10 days once; I know a family member who went to school (college) there for a year, and several seminarians who were from there.
One wise person said, "It's like your typical SSPX chapel, only with 30 to 50 times the population. Nothing more, nothing less." or something to that effect.
Matthew
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One interesting question --
WHAT KIND of traditional Catholics are attracted to a place like St. Mary's?
Perhaps a portion of the population consists of weaker Catholics with a need to be around a bunch of "yes men" -- they need to be around "like-minded people" to be strong in their faith?
Not speaking about everyone there, but I could easily see it.
Matthew
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Oh, I don't know. Many people picked up and moved to Spokane to be living in a Catholic community.
It has its problems for sure, but it has its advantages too.
My husband wouldn't think of moving till he retired from Lockheed, so I had to wait 15 years to get to a Catholic community, but I love it. It was worth waiting for, and I think it is good for the children. A Catholic school K through high school. Many of them have married each other, some have drifted off into the world never to be seen again. That does not mean they lost their Faith, just left Spokane.
Have you ever heard that saying, "once a Catholic, always a Catholic".....
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Moving to a place where you cannot viably support your family is wrong. St. Mary's is probably a nice place to go to mass, but it seems to me that the city has not grown in an organic fashion. The only thing many of the people would have in common would be their faith. Their politics and backgrounds may be vastly different. For example, how would a Trad from the deep South really like to live next to a New York city trad and vice-versa. They are not culturally compatible. It is not like the old ethnic Catholic neighborhoods that existed during the 20's-50's where people were ethnically similiar, related, and new each other. It seems to me building these artifical "traditional" communities is a recipe for failure.
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True, plus Catholics are so divided on theology, let alone regional issues, ethinicity,etc.
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Moving to a place where you cannot viably support your family is wrong. St. Mary's is probably a nice place to go to mass, but it seems to me that the city has not grown in an organic fashion. The only thing many of the people would have in common would be their faith. Their politics and backgrounds may be vastly different. For example, how would a Trad from the deep South really like to live next to a New York city trad and vice-versa. They are not culturally compatible. It is not like the old ethnic Catholic neighborhoods that existed during the 20's-50's where people were ethnically similiar, related, and new each other. It seems to me building these artifical "traditional" communities is a recipe for failure.
If you only knew the truth of what you write here...after nineteen years, this transplanted East Coaster is still and always will be a fish out of water. There's no place like home.
My advice to anyone is to stay where you are. Relocating for the sake of what someone perceives to be a traditional utopia is a big mistake.
"Artificial traditional communities" - you said it Sede! - a recipe for failure and, I might add, disillusionment. I know many, many families who rue the day they decided to uproot themselves for what they thought were greener pastures.
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For the people moving there with no job, etc. it's "putting the Faith first"
But it seems to me, God gave us each a brain and we must be prudent.
How can we save our souls when we can't feed our families?
St. Thomas Aquinas said that private property is a good, useful for living a virtuous life. We need certain material things to live a virtuous life.
God doesn't want us all digging in garbage cans. For starters, it's hard to help others -- practice charity -- when you're digging in garbage cans to keep body & soul together.
(He also doesn't want us idle; living off "residual income", "investment income" or other such money that comes without working... "By the sweat of thy brow shalt thou eat bread all the days of thy life", etc.)
And St. Paul quoted Jesus Christ as saying, "It is a more blessed thing to give than to receive."
Also, how can you home school your children if both parents have to work because of dire poverty? Again, material things (and considerations) have their place.
Matthew
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That's the worst. I know countless families that lost everything because they either couldn't find a job at all or had to take a job in their field for less than half of what they had been making before they moved. Reserves dwindle, some have to file for bankruptcy, others have the supreme humiliation of being at the mercy of food banks and the food stamp program, tempers flare, the traditional utopia turns out not to be so utopian....some make it back, most don't.
Sad situation all around.
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And here's the ten million dollar question:
When the Jones family moves 1,000 miles to be in St. Marys, because they "value the Faith" and suffer *greatly* for financial reasons, etc. what do you suppose they think of Catholics who stay put and don't move there?
They're probably going to look down on them. After all, the Jones family suffered so much to "put the Faith first" so they will be righteous as they look down on others who are content "to only attend Mass once a week. Hmph!"
Even though that's the more prudent course for most of the population.
Let's face it -- someone has to be the leaven for those "lesser chapels" too -- what if all the good Catholics up and left for St. Marys? What would happen to those "left behind" in all the other major cities in America? They would have no good examples to look upon.
Yes, it's nice to have tons of traditional Catholics all around you, but it comes with its downsides. You don't have to fight as much to be a Catholic, which makes for weaker, more complacent Catholics (in my opinion).
Matthew
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There seems to be a controversy over whether the traditional Catholic "mega-community" at St. Mary's, KS is just what the doctor ordered for the times in which we live.
Here is an example of why I would be tempted to say NO:
My son, N..., has moved to St. Marys with his wife and two children - and one more on the way. This addition to the Assumption Chapel and Academy families is seeking a house to rent in town or near by if possible; three bedrooms a must. Also, N... has (skills omitted); he has a versatile background and will be looking for work to support that family. Anyone that has any suggestions on either or both both fronts - it would be appreciated if your run them by me. Please pray for this family.
Regards,
(Name withheld)
Should Catholics be more prudent and make sure they have a way to support themselves, rather than head for the "trad Catholic mecca" in blind faith that they'll find something when they get there?
I know of at least one SSPX priest who was highly critical of PRECISELY the case I quoted above. Moving to St. Marys, with no idea how you will support yourself.
"Because it's... well, St. Mary's! 5 Masses on Sunday! Come on!"
But St. Marys has it own problems as well. Let's just say people are more inclined to take the Faith for granted when it's so prevalent -- just like the 1950's all across America.
On the other hand, other prominent priests believed that St. Mary's is certainly a good thing, even though many residents are worldly, etc. -- after all, you can't change human nature or control people's Free Will. But you can't say that a Catholic environment is a bad thing.
I see the merit in this point of view as well.
I just wanted to start a conversation about this important topic.
Matthew
A while back, a man named Jim joined the forum to tell about his radio blog show in which he has interviews with people who came from the east to join the SSPX community in Post Falls Idaho. He wasnt kindly treated by some on the forum.
In his interviews he discusses issues with the school there, and how hard it is to make a living in Post Falls, Idaho. The talks are well worth listening to. Im sure its the same in St Marys.
I have heard complaints from people moving to Spokane to be near the CMRI community there. We dont live in a perfect world! Being near the mass and a Catholic school involves many sacrifices.
Here is the link to the talks.
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/backyardradtrads
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A while back, a man named Jim joined the forum to tell about his radio blog show in which he has interviews with people who came from the east to join the SSPX community in Post Falls Idaho. He wasnt kindly treated by some on the forum.
Let's put that in perspective.
Say a man named "John Doe" joined this forum and started bashing Mount St. Michael's and their school. Let's further say that, while some of what he said may have a bit of truth in it, for the most part he was just a disgruntled parishioner who had his own idea of how a traditional catholic school and parish should be run.
What would you say?
The issue here is whether the move is worth it, not our gripes with how the school and parish are run.
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Uprooting our family to be near a dodgy academy and Mass center ?
* EPIC FAIL*
We were pretty sure St. Mary's wouldn't work, because we were able to get an accurate sense of it from people at our chapel.
Some of us just have to learn things the hard way, sadly. :tinfoil:
Emerentiana, I thought those talks were very interesting, and I am sorry that Jim was run off.
If you're around, HI JIM!!!
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Sounds like I'm the only person in the world who loves living in a Catholic community. Looooooooooove it!
However, as I said, my husband and I are retired, but you would never know it, I have three grandchildren living with me, one in K, one in 6th grade and one a Senior in high school. I feel like I did 40 years ago when I was raising my own children, running them here and there.
I love the school for them, they love it too, in fact all my grandchildren who have already graduated from the Mount, still attend Mass there, and these that still attend just love it, in fact I can't even get the girl that is a Senior to come home. Right now its 4:30 and she is still there helping to clean the theatre down in the basement.
Her entire class is going to Boston, during the Easter Holy Week with two of the nuns. We have a chapel in Boston, and not only will they sing for the Catholics there during Mid-night Mass but they will meet new young people.
The nuns plan on taking them on some of the historic places also. I feel some here might object to that; those who would rather forget the history of America, but I am happy Mount St. Michael doesn't feel that way.
I do agree however, if there are no jobs, and you have a good job right now, this is certainly not the time to take a chance. I read once in one of those prophesy books, that Catholics should stay where God has placed you in the end time period.
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I do agree however, if there are no jobs, and you have a good job right now, this is certainly not the time to take a chance. I read once in one of those prophesy books, that Catholics should stay where God has placed you in the end time period.
Thats it Myrna! Years ago when times were better, it seemed doable to relocate. Coming to the Northwest always meant taking a cut in pay, but jobs were out there.
Today, its ѕυιcιdє financially to relocate without a job offer.
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I totally agree Amy, and I don't thank God enough for my blessings, that He has made it possible for us to get to the Mount. It wasn't for the Mount exactly that I wanted to be here, I only lived a few miles from the Church in Newhall.
I always felt that Spokane was a blessed place to live in general, something about it, and still feel that way stronger than ever now. Especially with the chastisement almost here. Not that I will survive, that doesn't matter at my age, I already lived my life. I hope to at least be buried in the Catholic cemetary here at the Mount also.
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I do not think Spokane is a blessed place to live. It is predominantly protestant area with a heavy masonic influence. Also, it is a very controlled and invasive state and not business friendly either, especially for the self-employed.
Of course, if you are living in a traditional Catholic compound, things may be very different.
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Should Catholics be more prudent and make sure they have a way to support themselves, rather than head for the "trad Catholic mecca" in blind faith that they'll find something when they get there?
The answer is simple. You shouldn't move somewhere where you cannot provide for your family. No priest should ever give advice to the contrary.
I know of at least one SSPX priest who was highly critical of PRECISELY the case I quoted above. Moving to St. Marys, with no idea how you will support yourself.
He's right and his advice is dictated by prudence. On a practical level, how can the parish be supported by jobless people?
On the other hand, other prominent priests believed that St. Mary's is certainly a good thing, even though many residents are worldly, etc. -- after all, you can't change human nature or control people's Free Will. But you can't say that a Catholic environment is a bad thing.
This is really independent of the question above. There have always been good and bad Catholics.
I just wanted to start a conversation about this important topic.
If one cuts through the emotion, the answer is easy. The priest should be helping in this way, not bolstering the emotional, especially not for his own possibly selfish purposes.
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Is there a situation where you all would recommend moving to a St. Mary's? For instance, let's say you can support your family, but you are living in an area far from a Trad Chapel and have the opportunity to move to St. Mary's? Should you go?
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I do not think Spokane is a blessed place to live. It is predominantly protestant area with a heavy masonic influence. Also, it is a very controlled and invasive state and not business friendly either, especially for the self-employed.
Of course, if you are living in a traditional Catholic compound, things may be very different.
It's not a compound!
I am speaking of the future in Spokane not the present. Should have clarified. Present your right, ain't no paradise.
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I totally agree Amy, and I don't thank God enough for my blessings, that He has made it possible for us to get to the Mount. It wasn't for the Mount exactly that I wanted to be here, I only lived a few miles from the Church in Newhall.
I always felt that Spokane was a blessed place to live in general, something about it, and still feel that way stronger than ever now. Especially with the chastisement almost here. Not that I will survive, that doesn't matter at my age, I already lived my life. I hope to at least be buried in the Catholic cemetary here at the Mount also.
"At your age . . ."
Your pace of life with 3 children in school and such sounds like where those sayings come from like "60 is the new 40!" :geezer:
I had my dream job and backed out of it. This wasn't the only reason I backed out, but having to relocate away from the best parish I've ever even so much as visited and doubtulness about the availability of the TLM certainly factored into my decision to let it go.
I don't think wanting to be around other Catholics necessarily bespeaks a weakness about a person. The reality of where I live is that Catholic youth have an exceedingly difficult time finding other Catholics for courting and marriage. In most cases, it simply doesn't happen.
I find the concept of a St. Mary's enticing, but my family, Catholic on both sides, has been down here a century and a half, and longer on the other side. If ever there's anything to be said for staying where the Lord put you, as Myrna alluded to, then I guess that's what I'm doing.
Besides, somebody needs to be around to heckle backwoods protties about my Bible being older than their church, tell them their "profound" discussions about whether Mary had an umbilical cord are pointless, etc.
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I totally agree Amy, and I don't thank God enough for my blessings, that He has made it possible for us to get to the Mount. It wasn't for the Mount exactly that I wanted to be here, I only lived a few miles from the Church in Newhall.
I always felt that Spokane was a blessed place to live in general, something about it, and still feel that way stronger than ever now. Especially with the chastisement almost here. Not that I will survive, that doesn't matter at my age, I already lived my life. I hope to at least be buried in the Catholic cemetary here at the Mount also.
I raised all of my children in Southern Calif. For about 15 years, each summer I would go on a vacation with them to the Spokane area. I even hired a lady to drive with me to help with the small ones.
For many years we rented a cabin on one of the area lakes. When the younger ones were small, I rented a house for a month or so.
I took them to mass and got together with my friends and their kids. My children developed friendships that have lasted until now.
In 1991, I moved to Spokane and bought 5 acres. My second son moved in with me in 1992 right after graduation from high school.
I put a manufactured home on the property in 1995.
In 2001 he was ready to get married. I could not take care of such a large property by myself. I sold the property and moved to Montana to be by my 4 oldest children who lived there.
I really miss the Catholic community in Spokane, and daily mass.
The years were wonderful! Good memories!
If anyone has a real opportunity to move near a large mass center, it can be a wonderful experience.
However, in these times I would say that it would be very difficult or almost impossible financially to do so.
Gods will be done in this matter!
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Also, how can you home school your children if both parents have to work because of dire poverty?
Why homeschool if you've moved to a trad Catholic community with a trad Catholic school?
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We live 3.5 hours away from an FSSP Parish. I've often lamented being stuck in "Novus-Ordo" land. We know no other "serious" Catholics. We live in a very small town and we're the only Catholics who homeschool(ed) their children. There's a heavy emphasis on New Age stuff here: Buddhism, Hippies and the town only survives by catering to tourists from even more liberal cities a few hours away.
Mom's and Dad's both work and send their kids' to the local school and are involved in all the sports activities. The Novus Ordo Parish isn't as bad as what I've heard about others. Our priest is, I believe, a fairly well-intentioned man who has been emphasizing more and more lately the significance of the Eucharist and regular Confession. But his main "group" of involved parishioners are older women who do the readings, participate in an awful "choir" and "folk group" and act as "Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharistic" and are Lectors. Most of the Altar Servers are girls ... etc.
My main concern these last few years, has been for the eventual meeting and marrying of spouses for our children because they're not going to meet any traditional Catholics here. Our county is sparsely populated and there are no traditional parishes here at all. Even N.O. Catholics are few and far between in these far flung semi-rural communities.
However, lately, I've been thinking that God has either willed or allowed us to be planted here for a reason. We can't sell our house and my H is very resistant to the idea of moving to another place "just" because it has a traditional Mass. I don't know the reason we're here .... but I realized that the only thing I can do now for my children is to hope and pray that something will happen to provide them with the opportunity to meet and marry serious traditional Catholic people, or maybe they aren't called to marry at all. I don't know.
I don't know how one can really be a traditional Catholic only attending the Novus Ordo .. but as much as it's possible, we are. My daughter and I are the only ones that wear a veil during Mass and wear dresses/skirts to every Mass. Our family only receives the Eucharist on the tongue, stays kneeling until the parishioners in the pew in front of us go to Communion, don't hold hands during the Our Father...etc.
Looking back over the years, I see God's hand in our lives in how we've grown in the Faith. Sometimes I wish I'd never heard of the Traditional Mass .. "ignorance is bliss..." But on the other hand, we wouldn't have known about a more reverent way of experiencing Christ in the Eucharist and growing in our prayer life and in the way we live.
So it appears God, as usual, knows what He's doing. We're just supposed to trust Him.
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Also, how can you home school your children if both parents have to work because of dire poverty?
Why homeschool if you've moved to a trad Catholic community with a trad Catholic school?
Good point, but I wasn't speaking of homeschooling in the shadow of St. Mary's academy.
I was getting deep into the topic of "why we have to worry about the world and material things sometimes". And how material things -- or lack thereof -- can have a solid impact on the spiritual and eternal.
It doesn't get much more grave than impacting your kids' souls. And if, through carelessness, a couple become financially strapped such that they have to both work to survive, they lose the freedom to do things like homeschool their children.
Money shouldn't be sought after for its own sake. But it's OK to want to secure a *stable source* of food, shelter, and a Catholic education for your children.
And I know people joke about "even if your house is paid off, you're still renting from the government" but NO, you're not. If your house is paid off you only have to pay property tax, which you could get *much* more easily than any kind of rent or mortgage payment.
That having been said, you don't want to make life too easy for your children (or yourselves) either, or the Faith *will* suffer. Hard work and a bit of privation are necessary for any Catholic life. Having a bit of land and having many children will give you *plenty* in the hard work category!
Matthew
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I wouldnt trade Texas for St.Marys no matter what. Really, what's so special about it that you couldn't build up or cultivate anywhere else in the country? God planted me here with deep roots, and the only thing that will force me to pick up and move is an apocalyptic natural disaster, and honestly in that case I would probably go to Mexico instead.
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I can't speak for anyone else, and there are certainly valid points to both sides of this. I may or may not read this entire thread. The subject matter is so subjective and once I got to the insinuation that people who move may be weak and just want yes-men around them...Let's just say I need no extra irritation today.
So skipping to the back to add my two cents. Had my parents not picked up and moved when and where they did, I would not be Catholic today, period. We have suffered greatly, individually and as a family, and some of those repercussions will be life-long, but that's the sacrifice God asked of us to hang on to our Faith. Grace does not come cheap.
There are cons to places like St Mary's and other hubs, but sometimes the cons of staying put elsewhere are much, much worse. The same goes for my husband, whose family also moved to a hub when he was young.
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A place like St. Mary's is probably not return to the old Catholic towns of the Midwest, the way they were even 50 years ago, where my mother grew up.
Of course those towns were not perfect either. But they were very common.
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I can't speak for anyone else, and there are certainly valid points to both sides of this. I may or may not read this entire thread. The subject matter is so subjective and once I got to the insinuation that people who move may be weak and just want yes-men around them...Let's just say I need no extra irritation today.
So skipping to the back to add my two cents. Had my parents not picked up and moved when and where they did, I would not be Catholic today, period. We have suffered greatly, individually and as a family, and some of those repercussions will be life-long, but that's the sacrifice God asked of us to hang on to our Faith. Grace does not come cheap.
There are cons to places like St Mary's and other hubs, but sometimes the cons of staying put elsewhere are much, much worse. The same goes for my husband, whose family also moved to a hub when he was young.
:applause:
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As someone who is quite weak, I'd welcome an environment where I was encouraged rather than discouraged. It's not yes-men I want, but encouragement and bolstering and not being the odd one out.
Chances are though, I'd still be the odd one out in a trad community, as I don't object to women's trousers!
I just don't fit in anywhere! C'est la vie! :dancing:
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Chances are though, I'd still be the odd one out in a trad community, as I don't object to women's trousers!
I just don't fit in anywhere! C'est la vie! :dancing:
Ha ha! That's another score against me moving to St.Mary's. I dont fit in anywhere either, and Im against womens trousers! :kick-can: lol.
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I will probably never do so, but I can see plenty of legitimate reasons for moving to a heavily traditional Catholic area, not the least of which is to have a more solid Catholic environment for children. In my region, it has always been a most pleasant SURPRISE to find Catholic classmates in college, Catholic colleagues, etc.--a treasured rarity. I find the desire to be around solid Catholics commendable and prudent.
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once I got to the insinuation that people who move may be weak and just want yes-men around them...Let's just say I need no extra irritation today.
Don't take it so personally. I threw it out as a possibility for a small percentage of the St. Mary's population. Don't you suppose there are some weaker (e.g., worldly) Catholics at St. Mary's? I can assure you that they exist.
But looking at your quote, I think you misunderstood me altogether. Maybe you should re-read my post.
I didn't say
ALL those at St. Mary's are suspect of being weak.
I said
SOME people at St. Mary's might have moved there because they were weak and in need of encouragement from lots of like-minded people.
There is a difference.
I suppose I should clarify that some at St. Mary's are under no suspicion of being weak in their faith.
But everyone at St. Marys is not the same, and there is no "one" reason for moving there. There are all shades of people.
I think this discussion has been quite interesting, helpful, and enlightening. That's why I started it.
Matthew
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True, the weirdness of the failed attempts to take our children out of the worldly cesspool into a "devout Catholic" atmosphere must be experienced in order to to be understood.
I am not at all surprised that you have received so many emails from those who understand. One of the techniques of the bullies is to make their targets feel they are the only ones who did not fit in with the culture.
The other day I found an old workbook from the "school" with lots of answers marked wrong. But the answers were correct. What kind of freak would do that?
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I did a series of interviews on blog talk radio over the summer on people moving to Post Falls. I wanted people to hear the hard truth of the Catholic Disneyland. I am amazed by the many emails and calls I recieve to this day by people all over the world on this topic.
I think only people who have made the move can really appreciate the trials a family goes through, on so many levels.
My family is in the process of moving back East, after 8 years of living here. The person who wrote that being a Catholic is not enough to build a community hit the nail on the head for me. Ethic unity, along with a particular Catholic culture is neccesary for a community to thrive. America is just to plastic a place for a community to grow, I fear.
On another note I plan on doing some more shows on Catholic topics, if anyone is interseted on helping me please feel free to email me at backyardradtrad@yahoo.com
Great, Jim! Nice to see your post here. If you had moved to the CMRI community in Spokane, you would have been happier. However, its tough to make a living in the Northwest! :cheers:
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once I got to the insinuation that people who move may be weak and just want yes-men around them...Let's just say I need no extra irritation today.
Don't take it so personally. I threw it out as a possibility for a small percentage of the St. Mary's population. Don't you suppose there are some weaker (e.g., worldly) Catholics at St. Mary's? I can assure you that they exist.
But looking at your quote, I think you misunderstood me altogether. Maybe you should re-read my post.
I didn't say
ALL those at St. Mary's are suspect of being weak.
I said
SOME people at St. Mary's might have moved there because they were weak and in need of encouragement from lots of like-minded people.
There is a difference.
I suppose I should clarify that some at St. Mary's are under no suspicion of being weak in their faith.
But everyone at St. Marys is not the same, and there is no "one" reason for moving there. There are all shades of people.
I think this discussion has been quite interesting, helpful, and enlightening. That's why I started it.
Matthew
No I realized that you said some. That's why I added the "may". I suppose I should have added the "some" as well to reflect that I understood that. I've just heard many things about people who move, imprudent, rash, etc...but never weak-minded. That was pretty startling to me. I think it falls under no guts, no glory. It's a risk, it may turn out badly but it may turn out well. You won't know until you try. People who take that chance may be a lot of things, but they ain't weak.
And even if a reason for moving is because they want the company of like-minded people, how is that weak? Isn't that normal? Are we not supposed to seek out the company of those who edify us? Individuals at Trad hubs may be weak in Faith, as you said they're all shades, but I still don't see how a family making untold personal sacrifice to seek out good companions, a Trad school and frequent reception of the Sacraments could ever be viewed as weak, as though those who purposely stay put and risk their souls with lack of support are somehow stronger. It's a terribly inaccurate theory.
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I did a series of interviews on blog talk radio over the summer on people moving to Post Falls. I wanted people to hear the hard truth of the Catholic Disneyland. I am amazed by the many emails and calls I receive to this day by people all over the world on this topic.
I think only people who have made the move can really appreciate the trials a family goes through, on so many levels.
My family is in the process of moving back East, after 8 years of living here. The person who wrote that being a Catholic is not enough to build a community hit the nail on the head for me. Ethic unity, along with a particular Catholic culture is neccesary for a community to thrive. America is just to plastic a place for a community to grow, I fear.
On another note I plan on doing some more shows on Catholic topics, if anyone is interseted on helping me please feel free to email me at backyardradtrad@yahoo.com
I would have been much more impressed with you had you listened to Emma herself who said that she would have apostatized anyway, no matter how she "was treated". You practically forced her to blame Post Falls. She showed much more intellectual honesty in that interview than you did.
Have you balanced out your work yet by finding families who have made successful transplants and interviewed them on what they did, how they did it and what advice they would give to others contemplating a move?
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Or perhaps an interview with a religious or priest to see how their transplant to Post Falls (since that seems to be your focus) or any Catholic hub was what encouraged and developed their vocation. No need to sweep the trials and maltreatment and disillusionment under the rug, just keep it constructive and balanced, that would be great.
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Jim & co. did ask for anyone who wanted to to step forward and be interviewed. It looks as if nobody stepped forward.
Hopefully Jim will come back here and add more to the discussion.
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Jim & co. did ask for anyone who wanted to to step forward and be interviewed. It looks as if nobody stepped forward.
Hopefully Jim will come back here and add more to the discussion.
Yes, I'd be curious to hear...interviewed for what? What is the subject matter he is advertising for? What circles is he going to to ask for interviewees? Based on how biased the other one seemed to be I have difficulty believing he could present the highs and lows in an objective, balanced and constructive fashion. Perhaps he can and will, as I said, I'd love to see it.
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In the thread called Growing Up Traditional, June 16 of this year Jim invited participants.(in the Catholic Living in the Modern World)
Also, I thought he invited people with another point of view to get involved on one of his shows.
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I did ask many people who lived here to come including priests, but they all declined, for one reason or other, but mostly fear.
Not one person who actually lives here has approached me and critized me to my face, or said we were unbalanced. I have had many people including priests tell me that everything on the shows were totally accurate.
Actually they were pretty mild, they could have been much much worse. I turned people away who had some real horror stories.
My point in doing these shows was to give people who are thinking of uprooting themselves a real life view of living here.
As far as Emma, I did not know her, so I didn't know that she apostated. I thought she just fell away, if you thought I led her on then hey your entitled to your opinion. I tried to be as fair as possible.
The talk with John who went to St Mary's was pretty positive.
Like what was mentioned I did invite the critical people from this forum to come on but not one person stepped up. Pretty typical
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There are some who just get nervous when speaking on the radio or T.V. and if effects what they might actually want to say, they forget! That is probably what would have happened to me, anyway. I would come off like the Press Secretary Robert Gibbs eh! ah! oh!, ehhh! ummm!
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I attend Mount St. Michael; true story, about 10 years ago, my grandson, Victor age 3 was at the cemetary at the City of Mary with his parents on Memorial Day. He was bitten by a tic there and died about a week later, so fast. We never went back there since. Nothing to do with the Church, but just a very sad memory.
Although our family has received unusual and miracously like happenings from this tradigy.
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My point in doing these shows was to give people who are thinking of uprooting themselves a real life view of living here.
As far as Emma, I did not know her, so I didn't know that she apostated. I thought she just fell away, if you thought I led her on then hey your entitled to your opinion. I tried to be as fair as possible.
Since you seem to know so much about the affair it sounds like you were actually pretty well acquainted with her.
But it begs the question... why instead of asking the issue to be addressed by the superiors did you instead go make a news story out of it? Why not bring it to the attention of the directors of the school, and if not them WHY NOT THE DISTRICT SUPERIOR??
I think someone without an agenda who is truly concerned would seek amendment, not go about trying to cause scandal ON THE OUTSIDE by rabel rousing (which btw, is what "reporters" do). Your methods, jmid, are not those of a person of good will.
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My point in doing these shows was to give people who are thinking of uprooting themselves a real life view of living here.
As far as Emma, I did not know her, so I didn't know that she apostated. I thought she just fell away, if you thought I led her on then hey your entitled to your opinion. I tried to be as fair as possible.
Since you seem to know so much about the affair it sounds like you were actually pretty well acquainted with her.
But it begs the question... why instead of asking the issue to be addressed by the superiors did you instead go make a news story out of it? Why not bring it to the attention of the directors of the school, and if not them WHY NOT THE DISTRICT SUPERIOR??
I think someone without an agenda who is truly concerned would seek amendment, not go about trying to cause scandal ON THE OUTSIDE by rabel rousing (which btw, is what "reporters" do). Your methods, jmid, are not those of a person of good will.
That is what I have been trying to say all along.
JMID, why would any one here want to go on your show?
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My family is in the process of moving back East, after 8 years of living here. The person who wrote that being a Catholic is not enough to build a community hit the nail on the head for me. Ethic unity, along with a particular Catholic culture is neccesary for a community to thrive. America is just to plastic a place for a community to grow, I fear.
Jim, I envy you! You are very fortunate to be able to move back home. I agree with you, too, about ethnic unity. That is why we had neighborhoods way back when - Italian, German, Polish, Irish - complete with their very own ethnic churches, schools, delicatessens and bakeries!!! Those were the days; the "social engineers" and their block busters put an end to that.
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[/quote]
Since you seem to know so much about the affair it sounds like you were actually pretty well acquainted with her.
So your calling me a liar??
But it begs the question... why instead of asking the issue to be addressed by the superiors did you instead go make a news story out of it? Why not bring it to the attention of the directors of the school, and if not them WHY NOT THE DISTRICT SUPERIOR??
I think someone without an agenda who is truly concerned would seek amendment, not go about trying to cause scandal ON THE OUTSIDE by rabel rousing (which btw, is what "reporters" do). Your methods, jmid, are not those of a person of good will.[/quote]
Only on these forums have I gotten this objection.
The SUPERIORS have been contacted, met with, spoken too, many times over the years, with no results. Like I posted earlier these shows were mild, they could have been a lot worse, but if this reaches the outside world, then you are going to see a sh*t storm like no other hit the press. These idiots, not me, are giving the enemies of The Church fresh meat to hit us over the head with. Consider a few of the facts
When I moved here my son’s class at ICA had over 20 students in it, the grade below had over 20 also, now in those two grades,( they are Juniors and Seniors today) there are a total of 6 students !!! Three in each grade!! That means out of like 40 families only 6 make the grade?? The other 34 families are a bunch of liberals that need to be thrown out?? Ask yourself a question, what happens to all those children and families??
I know of a first grader who was thrown out with no explanation. When the Father approached the SUPERIOR he was never told why his son was expelled, not even the teacher knew why. He has written several letters that went unanswered.
At the girls school, St Dominic’s, is much, much worse. The ratios of graduation are ridiculous, and the pressure on the girls is unspeakable. There have been ѕυιcιdєs, nervous breakdowns, not to mention the loss of faith.
Emma was a very mild case also, she actually made it through. I’ve spoken to many young girls and boys who left the Faith because of their experiences. Let me tell you it is gut wrenching.
I have offered on here, to have critics speak to the people interviewed on a show to bring up their objections, but not one person came forward!! All this bravado, but as soon as a light is shown on them they run like the cockroaches they are.
I’m sorry buddy, but I can’t just stand by and watch good Catholic families, who wanted to give their children a Traditional upbringing, get crushed by a small group of control freaks. One day one of these families are going to contact a lawyer and all of our chapels are going to be under the micro scope. If the authorities investigate there will be Nuns and Priests going to jail for child abuse. They will not have the power of The Vatican to protect them, like in the Homo scandals of the NO. Plus the modernists in the Church will have a field day with this, I’m sure they are aware of the situation already, they may be giving us enough rope so we can hang ourselves.
Plus isn’t this way of “sweeping it under the rug” attitude is what destroyed The Church to begin with?? When the liturgy was changed, teaching changed, children sɛҳuąƖly abused, homos in the seminaries, modernist Bishops, we were are told to shut up, write your superiors if you have a problem , offer it up.......all the while children were being raped, along with the peoples faith.
What is sad is how easily this can be rectified, and what a great place Post Falls can be!! Most Catholics would gladly suffer poverty if they knew that their children were being spiritually fed. Where is this meanness, and disorder coming from? Is it the lack of authority? Pride? I can’t put my finger on it.
So if you want to call me names go ahead, I’ve seen your type before, and I have very little tolerance for your girly b.s. If you live here in the Northwest just email me and we can settle this face to face, I have no problem with that at all. Or I’ll be back East soon enough if you live there also. Your choice.
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Since you seem to know so much about the affair it sounds like you were actually pretty well acquainted with her.
So your calling me a liar??
But it begs the question... why instead of asking the issue to be addressed by the superiors did you instead go make a news story out of it? Why not bring it to the attention of the directors of the school, and if not them WHY NOT THE DISTRICT SUPERIOR??
I think someone without an agenda who is truly concerned would seek amendment, not go about trying to cause scandal ON THE OUTSIDE by rabel rousing (which btw, is what "reporters" do). Your methods, jmid, are not those of a person of good will.[/quote]
Only on these forums have I gotten this objection.
The SUPERIORS have been contacted, met with, spoken too, many times over the years, with no results. Like I posted earlier these shows were mild, they could have been a lot worse, but if this reaches the outside world, then you are going to see a sh*t storm like no other hit the press. These idiots, not me, are giving the enemies of The Church fresh meat to hit us over the head with. Consider a few of the facts
When I moved here my son’s class at ICA had over 20 students in it, the grade below had over 20 also, now in those two grades,( they are Juniors and Seniors today) there are a total of 6 students !!! Three in each grade!! That means out of like 40 families only 6 make the grade?? The other 34 families are a bunch of liberals that need to be thrown out?? Ask yourself a question, what happens to all those children and families??
I know of a first grader who was thrown out with no explanation. When the Father approached the SUPERIOR he was never told why his son was expelled, not even the teacher knew why. He has written several letters that went unanswered.
At the girls school, St Dominic’s, is much, much worse. The ratios of graduation are ridiculous, and the pressure on the girls is unspeakable. There have been ѕυιcιdєs, nervous breakdowns, not to mention the loss of faith.
Emma was a very mild case also, she actually made it through. I’ve spoken to many young girls and boys who left the Faith because of their experiences. Let me tell you it is gut wrenching.
I have offered on here, to have critics speak to the people interviewed on a show to bring up their objections, but not one person came forward!! All this bravado, but as soon as a light is shown on them they run like the cockroaches they are.
I’m sorry buddy, but I can’t just stand by and watch good Catholic families, who wanted to give their children a Traditional upbringing, get crushed by a small group of control freaks. One day one of these families are going to contact a lawyer and all of our chapels are going to be under the micro scope. If the authorities investigate there will be Nuns and Priests going to jail for child abuse. They will not have the power of The Vatican to protect them, like in the Homo scandals of the NO. Plus the modernists in the Church will have a field day with this, I’m sure they are aware of the situation already, they may be giving us enough rope so we can hang ourselves.
Plus isn’t this way of “sweeping it under the rug” attitude is what destroyed The Church to begin with?? When the liturgy was changed, teaching changed, children sɛҳuąƖly abused, homos in the seminaries, modernist Bishops, we were are told to shut up, write your superiors if you have a problem , offer it up.......all the while children were being raped, along with the peoples faith.
What is sad is how easily this can be rectified, and what a great place Post Falls can be!! Most Catholics would gladly suffer poverty if they knew that their children were being spiritually fed. Where is this meanness, and disorder coming from? Is it the lack of authority? Pride? I can’t put my finger on it.
So if you want to call me names go ahead, I’ve seen your type before, and I have very little tolerance for your girly b.s. If you live here in the Northwest just email me and we can settle this face to face, I have no problem with that at all. Or I’ll be back East soon enough if you live there also. Your choice.
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Am I calling you a liar? I call em when I smell them... snakes too.
Those are some pretty serious accusations that you have made to have not contacted the US DISTRICT SUPERIOR, and contradict what I have been told by someone who has spent a lot of time in Post Falls. In case you have not noticed, this is not the Novus Ordo, nor SGG. We dont resolve problems with mobs. What do you expect to accomplish in publishing reports on the schools to the general public? You still havent told us that much.
And you've got some nerve challenging my masculinity behind a username.... email to email isnt face to face. I got no problem facing the likes of you in person, (except I wouldnt be spending my time productively). Im a southern boy. You wanna deal with me in person, you bring your scaly ass down to Texas. I wouldnt recommend it though as it would be of no benefit to either of us.
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Who are the control freaks? Priests or laity?
When did these school problems start? They didn't have them in the 1990s. Instead, they had massive problems with a certain group of traditionals who can be compared to vipers. That's the kindest word i can think of at the moment.
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Forty boys down to six is a problem anyway you look at it. We
Jim's family has only been there for the last 8 years.
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ok CS lets agree to disagree. It just really burns me to be called a liar. To disagree is one thing but to call someone a liar is personal.
If you want to live in a make believe world, thats your buisness, but the rest of us have to live in the real world and face real problems.
Ask people from the CMRI, they had a kook that they had to deal with. When they finally confronted him they were able to build a great community out of the chaos. I hope the SSPX is able to do the same.
From what I've seen The SSPX has great priests, but they are not trained to be educators. That is not thier mission, and from what I understand The Arch Bishop did not want that responsibility, but it was forced onto them.
Give the schools to the parents, let them hire teachers, raise funds etc.....my opinon
They never wanted to have anything to do with the school to begin with. You are correct that they are not trained educators. They know that, which is why they wanted nothing to do with the school at first. If I remember correctly, the laity asked the priests to intervene since the laity weren't doing so hot of a job in running the school.
Girls attending St. Dominic's have committed ѕυιcιdє? This is the first I have ever heard this one. The Spokesman Review would love a story like that. How did the Dominicans manage to keep it out of the papers?
Leaving the faith once Catholic children are out of school is nothing new. It cannot be blamed on the way traditional schools are run since the novus ordo schools do not seem to be able to hold on to their young ones either.
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From what I've seen The SSPX has great priests, but they are not trained to be educators. That is not thier mission, and from what I understand The Arch Bishop did not want that responsibility, but it was forced onto them.
Give the schools to the parents, let them hire teachers, raise funds etc.....my opinon
Ah! THERE is your agenda... take away control of the schools and hand them over to be dictated by parish counsels that will keep the priests out of education.
What's wrong jmid, do you miss the corporate style parish of the NO? Is there too little Democracy in SSPX parishes for you?
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From what I've seen The SSPX has great priests, but they are not trained to be educators. That is not thier mission, and from what I understand The Arch Bishop did not want that responsibility, but it was forced onto them.
Give the schools to the parents, let them hire teachers, raise funds etc.....my opinon
Ah! THERE is your agenda... take away control of the schools and hand them over to be dictated by parish counsels that will keep the priests out of education.
What's wrong jmid, do you miss the corporate style parish of the NO? Is there too little Democracy in SSPX parishes for you?
If these schools are unsuccessful and riddled with serious problems, why should they continue unchanged? Why are you in favor of protecting failure? Because of some misguided notion of "principle?"
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From what I've seen The SSPX has great priests, but they are not trained to be educators. That is not thier mission, and from what I understand The Arch Bishop did not want that responsibility, but it was forced onto them.
Give the schools to the parents, let them hire teachers, raise funds etc.....my opinon
Ah! THERE is your agenda... take away control of the schools and hand them over to be dictated by parish counsels that will keep the priests out of education.
What's wrong jmid, do you miss the corporate style parish of the NO? Is there too little Democracy in SSPX parishes for you?
If these schools are unsuccessful and riddled with serious problems, why should they continue unchanged? Why are you in favor of protecting failure? Because of some misguided notion of "principle?"
I did not say there should be no changes made, that is if there are really problems. Taking away administrative powers from the priests in education is not the answer, as it always leads to disaster for the community. Ask the Jesuits.
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This is somewhat relevant, but doesn't speak to the issue of whether it's better or productive or prudent to move to be near a traditional chapel or to stay put -- because I am atypical in that I'm a senior and without children or family.
Maybe I'm just very prone to griping and complaining, and I acknowledge upfront that I have only myself to hold responsible for the decisions I made -- but what specifically concerns me is that there are people, in addition to the clergy, prominent traditional Catholic laypersons, who have urged various individuals who were seeking the true Faith, worship, and sacraments, to move to be near traditional chapels, all the while knowing over a long time period that there were serious problems at those chapels. Misleading those searching Catholics for their own purposes, and through what I perceive as the unworthy motive of avoiding scandal at all costs, rather than being prepared to reveal the specific knowledge they had of the wrongdoing and corruption.
To use an imperfect analogy, at the NO church I had accessible to me, a non-driver, in NJ, before my relocation, a lot of the parishioners believed or at least suspected that the pastor was a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ. Nevertheless they practiced their NO Catholicism, and many related Catholic social/charitable activities, as though everything was all right. In pop culture lingo, I can't relate to that.
But I must acknowledge that I have been most blessed and favored by Divine Providence -- which worries me because I don't feeling worthy of it -- that my move in the end proved a good one. I was not at all happy in the spiritual wasteland from which I came; I much prefer Ohio living; and have made good Catholic friends here, as well as having lost some. I don't go to the Church I moved to be near, which is within walking distance, and I can only get to on Mass on Sunday and sometimes one weekday, because I depend on, and am most grateful to, my kind Catholic friends for transportation there.
So if there's a moral to be found in my experience, I guess it's that there is nothing certain in life but death and Eternity to follow. FWIW
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-- but what specifically concerns me is that there are people, in addition to the clergy, prominent traditional Catholic laypersons, who have urged various individuals who were seeking the true Faith, worship, and sacraments, to move to be near traditional chapels, all the while knowing over a long time period that there were serious problems at those chapels. Misleading those searching Catholics for their own purposes, and through what I perceive as the unworthy motive of avoiding scandal at all costs, rather than being prepared to reveal the specific knowledge they had of the wrongdoing and corruption.
Your concern is well founded. This is cult behavior.
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Why would anyone want to be around people with "the society is always right" mentality is beyond me. They've invested these priests with infinitely more power and authority than was ever the case in the pre-Vatican II churches.
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A very big part of the problem is that there are a bunch of spiritual beginners who think they are proficient or advanced because of the accidental illusion that adhering to traditional Catholicism gives. Consequently, you have alot of vice and imperfections remaining among Catholics who think there should be alot less, so it goes unattended and festers. This is in addition to the fixation on external religion which is viewed as an end in itself. This isn't anything that good efforts in the interior life couldn't solve. But gnawing at the bark while failing to attain the pith in our criticisms of problems is obviously not going to help anything.
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The behavior of people on this thread is appalling.
Jim, you in particular seem to be very provoking with some of your comments. I'm not even sure on what principles you are currently attending the SSPX if you are so critical of the situation there and when you hold up the CMRI community there as something worthy to emulate. The only thing the two groups have in common is that they offer the Traditional Mass. The principles on which they operate are worlds apart. On a side note of something that contributes to your objectivity is the idealist view of the Northeast especially in the interview you did with John. I can tell you first hand how subjective that is. We moved here to the Northeast from the Midwest and we cannot stand this part of the country. Rudeness, narcissism, rat race mentality, massive traffic, sprawl, high cost of living is all we see. I give that as an example of individual perspective and how subjective that can be.
Something that was said earlier in the thread is worth expounding on, namely how many of these problems can be traced to the laity? Wasn't there even a whole series of sermons recorded years ago by Fr. Doran when he was in Post Falls that stemmed from the very issue of families moving there without any means of support causing massive strain on the parish resources?
I have seen first hand how vicious the laity can be towards its priests in the name of defending "tradition" which often is what they think is traditional and has nothing to do with preserving the Faith. A quote from a sermon I heard once sums this up nicely: " At ordinations everyone wishes to kiss the priest's hands, but a year later when they are in the parishes people want to bite them."
It is normal and Catholic for the laity to subject themselves to the authority of their priest in all things but sin. If this is seen and being “yes men” so be it. Years of resistance towards modernist priests and a Americanist spirit contribute to laity justifying their back biting even when Our Lord sends them good and holy priests.
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A very big part of the problem is that there are a bunch of spiritual beginners who think they are proficient or advanced because of the accidental illusion that adhering to traditional Catholicism gives. Consequently, you have alot of vice and imperfections remaining among Catholics who think there should be alot less, so it goes unattended and festers. This is in addition to the fixation on external religion which is viewed as an end in itself. This isn't anything that good efforts in the interior life couldn't solve. But gnawing at the bark while failing to attain the pith in our criticisms of problems is obviously not going to help anything.
No, I've never seen any criticism of the society from the society's "yes-men" here. They blindly, viciously defend the cult in all circuмstances.
They're bad Catholics.
Wicked pestilent man, "Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam in thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."
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Wasn't there even a whole series of sermons recorded years ago by Fr. Doran when he was in Post Falls that stemmed from the very issue of families moving there without any means of support causing massive strain on the parish resources?
I assume this was before the Internet was widely used. In any case, if this was deemed a problem, might the Society have been able to discourage this from happening via word-of-mouth?
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Wasn't there even a whole series of sermons recorded years ago by Fr. Doran when he was in Post Falls that stemmed from the very issue of families moving there without any means of support causing massive strain on the parish resources?
I assume this was before the Internet was widely used. In any case, if this was deemed a problem, might the Society have been able to discourage this from happening via word-of-mouth?
"Massive strain"? The only massive strain on the resources of the faithful are the incessant appeals for money that sometimes is collected (and we are talking thousand and thousands) and then disappears as the reason it was collected becomes nil. I often wondered if anyone there ever asked what happened to the money without getting a verbal beating.
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I was never there, but it seems possible that the laity might become angry and uncharitable toward one another if they believed that poor newcomers were soaking up the collections.
The money always seems to be an issue--an obvious one--yet since I never have any I forget to consider it.
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I was never there, but it seems possible that the laity might become angry and uncharitable toward one another if they believed that poor newcomers were soaking up the collections.
The money always seems to be an issue--an obvious one--yet since I never have any I forget to consider it.
As you say, you have never been there. The poor of the parish do not soak up their collections. Oh, I know, those slovenly, irresponsible, dirty poor people, right? Taking all of our hard earned money. Truth is, the main reason they are so poor is because of the amount of children they have and only one bread-winner in the family. The place has many, many wealthy parishioners.
No one even knows (at least they never used to publish it in the bulletin) how much they rake in every Sunday. It is a secret.
The most uncharitable place I have ever been to is my local novus ordo church - the only thing they know how to do is to turn their needy parishioners over to some other entity, meanwhile they will think nothing of collecting $10,000 among themselves to sent to Haiti. But for the person sitting next to them in the pew, typical liberal mindset...off to the local food bank with you and don't bother us! After all, our taxes go towards helping the likes of you...
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It is normal and Catholic for the laity to subject themselves to the authority of their priest in all things but sin.
In all things? So if they tried to tell you who you could marry without any basis in Catholic teaching, you'd follow them?
That is a form of slavish insanity that is not Catholic.
Get a grip. That would be forcing someone to marry a person against their will which would be an invalid marriage and a sin. No priest is going to knowingly force someone into a invalid marriage.
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As you say, you have never been there. The poor of the parish do not soak up their collections.
I did not say that the poor of the parish soak up their collections.
John Steven said that Fr. Doran recorded a series of sermons about this.
Therefore, this may have served to cause problems between people.
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Well, then, by all means keep those financial leeches out of your parishes.
Perhaps a sign on the church office door "Low Income Parishioners Not Wanted" would be a charitable touch.
:cool:
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Wasn't there even a whole series of sermons recorded years ago by Fr. Doran when he was in Post Falls that stemmed from the very issue of families moving there without any means of support causing massive strain on the parish resources?
I assume this was before the Internet was widely used. In any case, if this was deemed a problem, might the Society have been able to discourage this from happening via word-of-mouth?
"Massive strain"? The only massive strain on the resources of the faithful are the incessant appeals for money that sometimes is collected (and we are talking thousand and thousands) and then disappears as the reason it was collected becomes nil. I often wondered if anyone there ever asked what happened to the money without getting a verbal beating.
We've come full circle on this thread back to the original quote Matthew posted of a real life of example of a family moving to St. Mary's without any job lined up. It is my understanding from listening to those sermons referenced above that the exact same thing was happening at Post Falls at that time. Yet, somehow according to your logic the faithful are not at fault for this? I see priests working tirelessly for the salvation of souls and what thanks do they get for it? The faithful back bite about them and refuse to admit that the problems they see in their parishes and schools are often prat of their own doing.
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They do bend over backwards for big contributers. Working tirelessly?
You have no idea how right you are.
You two continue to throw around accusations putting some vague parish/school/religious society in the worst light possible. How immature and pathetic.
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The impression given to young women that you cite is correct and Catholic. Not really sure what your problem is with it.
Which just goes to show you don't follow Catholicism but rather you follow cult-like beliefs the society tries to impose.
Reply to Objection 1. The maid is in her father's power, not as a female slave without power over her own body, but as a daughter, for the purpose of education. Hence, in so far as she is free, she can give herself into another's power without her father's consent, even as a son or daughter, since they are free, may enter religion without their parent's consent.
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/5045.htm
The age of majority according to Canon Law is 18 years old. At that age a daughter does not need her father's position to marry, let alone speak to someone.
But don't let St. Thomas Aquinas stop you from following the dictates of the cult. Apparently some society priests are very sympathetic to machismo even though it's a total perversion of Catholic teaching.
This book explains how the "enlightened" (masonic influenced anticlerical) Spanish government of the late 18th century attempted to impose the parental tyranny that the SSPX priests attempt to impose in the confessional.
To Love Honor and Obey in Colonial Mexico (http://books.google.com/books?id=6Req0mi3GVUC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22to+love+honor+and+obey%22&hl=en&ei=h0jwTMiKFMSUnAf31sSACw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false)
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Get a grip. That would be forcing someone to marry a person against their will which would be an invalid marriage and a sin. No priest is going to knowingly force someone into a invalid marriage.
No, they don't try to force marriages, they can just bind a person in the confessional not to talk someone At any rate, if a person chooses to obey the priest in all things it would follow logically you should marry only the person the priest approves. That's crazy. It's a totally cult-like mentality.
The Catholic Church certainly doesn't teach that we have to follow a priests instructions "in all things."
SSPX priests, it would seem, give the impression to young women that they must have their father's permission to speak to a man, and lead them to believe they need parental permission. That is dishonest. You go ahead and be a slave to dishonest priests. I won't be.
Tele,
Its really not cult like mentality! In Europe in years past, this WAS the Catholic Mentality.
Courtship was strictly regulated by the parents. If a girl and guy wanted to court, they had to have the parents permission and THEN........they would court with a chaparone at all times!
If they decided to marry, they had to do so in 6 months!
My sister and brotherinlaw did that very thing. They were from Sicily. They never kissed before their wedding. They have been happily married for over 50 years!
Courtship was pure! The bride's white wedding dress did symbolize purity!
The couples followed the rules if they wanted a church wedding. I dont think the priest got involved.
Those that did not want to follow the rules eloped! LOL
Another interesting custom in Sicily 50 years ago. The children had to marry in order. If the child above was not married, then the next child could not marry! Another reason for elopements! They were common.
:dancing:
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This reminds me that Fr. Doran spoke in favor of arranged marriages, and brides coming into a marriage with a dowry, among other things.
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"Queen Victoria" was the one who came up with the white wedding. It was the color that the elites used. They had the stature to be able to buy a dress and never wear it again. That was the idea. It's absolutely unnecessary to be married in white. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with purity!
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I see priests working tirelessly for the salvation of souls and what thanks do they get for it?
Oh, please! How does complaining about the poor contribute to the salvation of souls? And going to the trouble of recording? Who would thank him for that?
Doweries? Then it seems hypocritical to discourage the poor. There used to be many, many, many souls dependent upon the Church for their bread.
So, warning against relocation to a particular spot seems to be a good thing, unless one has a nice fat bank account.
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John Steven posted this:"Something that was said earlier in the thread is worth expounding on, namely how many of these problems can be traced to the laity? Wasn't there even a whole series of sermons recorded years ago by Fr. Doran when he was in Post Falls that stemmed from the very issue of families moving there without any means of support causing massive strain on the parish resources?"
Umm I am certain this is not your personal opinion. However, I wonder what St. Vincent DePaul would say. Or even Jesus Christ.
Does anyone know their faith anymore???
What a shameful thing for someone to say. And, this came from a priest???
Well, thanks to Hussien Obama in the White House many will fall from their high horse.
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And if a priest is giving sermons about this, the people will listen and be unkind to the poor! :facepalm:
Studies prove that people mostly listen and do what as their priests suggest.
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John Steven posted this:"Something that was said earlier in the thread is worth expounding on, namely how many of these problems can be traced to the laity? Wasn't there even a whole series of sermons recorded years ago by Fr. Doran when he was in Post Falls that stemmed from the very issue of families moving there without any means of support causing massive strain on the parish resources?"
Umm I am certain this is not your personal opinion. However, I wonder what St. Vincent DePaul would say. Or even Jesus Christ.
Does anyone know their faith anymore???
What a shameful thing for someone to say. And, this came from a priest???
Well, thanks to Hussien Obama in the White House many will fall from their high horse.
Let me see if I am following you and the others on this issue.
You all seem to be in favor of a family picking up and relocating to an area with no job lined up and then calling the other parishioners (who the majority are no doubt themselves barely making ends meet) and priests uncharitable for being unable to support them and discouraging further families from doing such?
It's not a question of charity, its a question of prudence and no man should uproot his family and expect others to support him.
What faith are people being ignorant of?
What does "Hussien Obama" have to do with this and what are you suggesting by this comment?
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And if a priest is giving sermons about this, the people will listen and be unkind to the poor! :facepalm:
Studies prove that people mostly listen and do what as their priests suggest.
Have you listened to the sermons? Do you even know what you are talking about? The priest suggested no such thing.
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Hi John- No, I have not listened to the sermons, and it is fair that there are two sides to every story.
I 100% agree that no man should uproot his family somewhere and expect that others will support his family for him.
Is it true the priest encourages the dowery?
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Do the priests advise Traditional Catholic girls to avoid non-Trad men or any other possible bad company? If not then that's horribly inconsistent; though from what I have heard from a sermon touching on this subject from an SSPX priest, it would seem that they do.
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Do the priests advise Traditional Catholic girls to avoid non-Trad men or any other possible bad company? If not then that's horribly inconsistent; though from what I have heard from a sermon touching on this subject from an SSPX priest, it would seem that they do.
Can you believe a very large percentage of the children are sent to public high school?
Yes, I know. Some are converts to Tradition which is a bit more understandable, though these seem to be the minority. Some from what I understand were kicked out of Trad schools for disciplinary reasons and are thus sent (back) to public schools.
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Hi John- No, I have not listened to the sermons, and it is fair that there are two sides to every story.
I 100% agree that no man should uproot his family somewhere and expect that others will support his family for him.
Is it true the priest encourages the dowery?
I was sitting in the pew with my husband when he said it. He also favored the school run along the lines of a military academy.
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I was sitting in the pew with my husband when he said it. He also favored the school run along the lines of a military academy.
Sounds like a terrible idea. The last thing Catholics need is priests, brothers and the relatives of favored laity acting like drill sergeants.
Every morning he had those boys lined up and a retired military man ran them through drills.
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Sounds like a tragic choice for a family wishing only to educate their average kids away from the cesspool of the world.
Anyone familiar with the way military academies were run (and I am assuming Father wants the old school way) will know that bullying, severe bullying is systemic.
Then, anyone familiar with how kids learn will know that only a certain type of kid will be able to learn in that type of environment.
There :pray: ARE :pray: some good non-mainstream Catholic schools out there--
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Some from what I understand were kicked out of Trad schools for disciplinary reasons and are thus sent (back) to public schools.
I'm not sure the decision not to send to trad schools is related to discipline in most cases. Generally I would guess not.
But it's pretty clear, there's something haywire, a kind of very unfortunate compartmentalization, that on the one hand is willing to accept a public school environment but on the other hand teaches a kind of Jansenist morality about interaction with the opposite sex that would even forbid speaking after mass?
It's conducive to keeping up appearances but it could hardly be conducive to morality.
What would a catholic school master do when a student brings bad books and movies with himself? Or when a girl is collecting phone numbers of her classmates and distributes phone numbers boys among them?????
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I was sitting in the pew with my husband when he said it. He also favored the school run along the lines of a military academy.
Sounds like a terrible idea. The last thing Catholics need is priests, brothers and the relatives of favored laity acting like drill sergeants.
I agree. Militarism is an attempt to supply for a defect by those who do not have supernatural faith. Rigid, aggressive, disallows the working of other virtues. It's a terrible mistake in thinking even by traditional priests. But it is a common American response.
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Militarism is an attempt to supply for a defect by those who do not have supernatural faith. Rigid, aggressive, disallows the working of other virtues. It's a terrible mistake in thinking even by traditional priests.
You can say that again.
The lack of supernatural faith, education, grace, manners, talent, charity..the revenge of the white trash in some cases.
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But it's pretty clear, there's something haywire, a kind of very unfortunate compartmentalization, that on the one hand is willing to accept a public school environment but on the other hand teaches a kind of Jansenist morality about interaction with the opposite sex that would even forbid speaking after mass?
It's conducive to keeping up appearances but it could hardly be conducive to morality.
I do not believe this to be true. At my parish (which also has a school) there are ALWAYS guys and girls chatting with each other after Mass.
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Apparently, not every SSPX chapel is like Telesphorus' old SSPX chapel.
Makes you wonder why he's continually extending the particular to the universal.
Fr. X was out of line.
Fr. X is an SSPX priest.
SSPX priests are out of line.
Yes, if you grant the unspoken minor, that Fr. X is the same thing as all SSPX priests!
I haven't heard anything from Telesphorus that suggests his experience is any broader than just the one chapel. Tele -- correct me if I'm wrong.
Matthew
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Fr. X was out of line.
Fr. X is an SSPX priest.
SSPX priests are out of line.
There were two priests there during my time at that Chapel. I'm banned from attending now. The second priest told me the SSPX has a policy, you may not talk to a girl without a father's permission, even if she's 18. He then threatened to kick me out. I told him he should teach what St. Thomas Aquinas taught otherwise he's not adhering to the Catholic religion and he laughed and said it was some kind of joke.
Now the SSPX can either teach that girls in their majority are free to marry who they want or they can teach what they teach now - which is to threaten to kick someone out if he tries to talk to a girl, and maliciously and dishonestly suggest the man is imagining things and "imbalanced" for thinking the girl likes him.
I notice the same sort of personal attacks and intellectually dishonest defense of some things seems to be par for the course among some here.
I'm talking about my chapel of course but obviously my chapel isn't the only chapel where this sort of thing, being told not even to talk to members of the opposite sex is an issue. Let's remember the backyard rad trad broadcasts.
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I assume these priests didn't give you any references for their position?
An SSPX website link, book, manual, etc.?
It does sound messed up, as you describe it.
Catholic doctrine is Catholic doctrine. And as far as I know, St. Thomas Aquinas is the source of Catholic doctrine par excellence.
Matthew
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If so many people believe that, there must be a material cause. Is it some kind of "ideal" they're after? Is there a given book, sermon, series of talks, etc. that is forming all these minds on that issue?
Is it because they believe that a woman who still lives at home is under her father's authority, much like the Muslims believe? There's a bit of "natural law" to that; it's not exactly against nature. I haven't studied the issue so I'm not going to pontificate about it at this time.
What disturbs me is the apparent disregard for one of their flock. Don't they have pity on the older single men at the parish? Is it a case of "misery loves company"?
"I have to be single, and I guess you do too!"
That seems a very petty attitude to impute to an SSPX priest.
I guess what I'm wondering is -- what's the priest's side of the story in all this?
That's the side we've never heard.
Matthew
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That's the side we've never heard.
Matthew
Well, you shouldn't trust what he says, going by my experiences with him. Pretending I'm crazy to think that a girl likes me, pretending to disbelieve me when I tell him what happens.
I'm reasonably handsome, intelligent, and honest, but this priest tries to represent me as some sort of deranged predator, and treats me like I'm crazy.
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I do not understand who is being called White Trash? What a mean thing to say about anyone. That is so American Elitist I must say.
It is a nasty word but there is a kind of spontaneous hostility and malice that one encounters sometimes from people of a certain background.
For example, you might walk by an RV park, and have someone who certainly appears to be a bumpkin lets his dog (while furiously barking) go almost to the end of the leash in order to frighten your friend's dog.
What certain backround?
Typically people from Appalachia.
Like the Dukes of Hazzard Beverly Hillbillies stereotype.
Or the movie Deliverance.
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It is wrong for anyone to call them White Trash.
I don't think Elizabeth was talking about poor people. Just people with certain attitudes and behaviors.
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Who were you referring to as "White Trash" in this thread?
I was being charitable and restrained about a couple of women who had unfortunate contact with one of my children in a school-like setting.
Perhaps when I am in the mood, I will write about them in the SSPV ICA thread.
Should I have said Faulkner-esque instead? :confused1:
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Who were you referring to as "White Trash" in this thread?
I was being charitable and restrained about a couple of women who had unfortunate contact with one of my children in a school-like setting.
Perhaps when I am in the mood, I will write about them in the SSPV ICA thread.
Should I have said Faulkner-esque instead? :confused1:
Oh, is the the Fr. Jenkins school you had trouble with or another? I guess it should be a separate thread.
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Who were you referring to as "White Trash" in this thread?
I was being charitable and restrained about a couple of women who had unfortunate contact with one of my children in a school-like setting.
Perhaps when I am in the mood, I will write about them in the SSPV ICA thread.
Should I have said Faulkner-esque instead? :confused1:
You're playing games.
You did say there are two sides to every story a few posts back. I would love to hear Fr. Jenkins' side of your sob story.
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Or the movie Deliverance.
:laugh1: Bingo! :laugh1:
But being permitted to "teach" LATIN!
(hint: never having studied it herself, couldn't be that hard, huh?)
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So glad I always taught my children at home. Never had all those problems.
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Actually I was thinking some of the remarks on this thread more like Charles Dickens:
First Collector: At this festive time of year, Mr. Scrooge, it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the poor and destitute.
Ebenezer: Are there no prisons?
First Collector: Plenty of prisons.
Ebenezer: And the union workhouses - are they still in operation?
First Collector: They are. I wish I could say they were not.
Ebenezer: Oh, from what you said at first I was afraid that something had happened to stop them in their useful course. I'm very glad to hear it.
First Collector: I don't think you quite understand us, sir. A few of us are endeavoring to buy the poor some meat and drink, and means of warmth.
Ebenezer: Why?
First Collector: Because it is at Christmastime that want is most keenly felt, and abundance rejoices. Now what can I put you down for?
Ebenezer: Huh! Nothing!
Second Collector: You wish to be anonymous?
Ebenezer: [firmly, but calmly] I wish to be left alone. Since you ask me what I wish sir, that is my answer. I help to support the establishments I have named; those who are badly off must go there.
First Collector: Many can't go there.
Second Collector: And some would rather die.
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I do not believe this to be true. At my parish there are ALWAYS guy and girls chatting with each other after Mass.
Some of them, yes. Very lax standards for some.
There is really nothing wrong with boys and girls chatting after mass.
Its either chatting there in a supervised environment, or sneaking around chatting and dating.
The bottom line is..........either your children have convictions about the faith and morals........or they dont. Some kids dont believe a word their parents or priests say.......they bide their time until they are free and can do what they want.
It comes as quite a shock to many parents what their kids do after graduation day! Ive seen it over and over.
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I do not believe this to be true. At my parish there are ALWAYS guy and girls chatting with each other after Mass.
Some of them, yes. Very lax standards for some.
There is really nothing wrong with boys and girls chatting after mass.
Its either chatting there in a supervised environment, or sneaking around chatting and dating.
The bottom line is..........either your children have convictions about the faith and morals........or they dont. Some kids dont believe a word their parents or priests say.......they bide their time until they are free and can do what they want.
It comes as quite a shock to many parents what their kids do after graduation day! Ive seen it over and over.
I agree with you Emerentiana. With everyone around it is a good place for young men and women to talk. I wish my oldest daughter had talked to the youths outside of where we attend the Mass. She did not. She talked to the Novus Ordoite next door. My daughter has left the Faith. And she was taught at home. The problem is not the Truly traditional Catholic Children, the problem is those outside the Faith. And, yes, by that I most definitely include the Novus Ordo.
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I would love to hear Fr. Jenkins' side of your sob story.
By all means give him a call--I'm sure you two will get along famously.
Just Google Immaculate Conception Church Norwood Ohio.
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Seems there are many ideas in this one thread. From Matthew's original post, it has gone off on courtship, marriage, poor families moving to be close to their priests, and finally back to the SSPV and Jenkins where most threads on schools end up. Perhaps it should be split into seperate threads to be discussed more clearly.
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I agree with Dawn. The Father Jenkins stuff should be in a different thread.
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Alexandria,
You appear to be possess the attributes that Fr Jenkins would be looking for to form the minds of young traditional Catholics : hostile, abusive, bullying , egocentric, underhanded . If you play along he will even let you think that you can be an ancillary Jenkins unemployable family goon who can roam the school and church grounds randomly enforcing petty rules . The retirement plan includes ripping off and conning the millionaires who attend the chapel .
Thank you.
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Actually I was thinking some of the remarks on this thread more like Charles Dickens:
First Collector: At this festive time of year, Mr. Scrooge, it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the poor and destitute.
Ebenezer: Are there no prisons?
First Collector: Plenty of prisons.
Ebenezer: And the union workhouses - are they still in operation?
First Collector: They are. I wish I could say they were not.
Ebenezer: Oh, from what you said at first I was afraid that something had happened to stop them in their useful course. I'm very glad to hear it.
First Collector: I don't think you quite understand us, sir. A few of us are endeavoring to buy the poor some meat and drink, and means of warmth.
Ebenezer: Why?
First Collector: Because it is at Christmastime that want is most keenly felt, and abundance rejoices. Now what can I put you down for?
Ebenezer: Huh! Nothing!
Second Collector: You wish to be anonymous?
Ebenezer: [firmly, but calmly] I wish to be left alone. Since you ask me what I wish sir, that is my answer. I help to support the establishments I have named; those who are badly off must go there.
First Collector: Many can't go there.
Second Collector: And some would rather die.
very Malthusian in the scene, Dickens works in some very good criticism of the times.
thanks for inputtin that thar sister-cousin, yuck yuck :roll-laugh1: :roll-laugh2:
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Hi John- No, I have not listened to the sermons, and it is fair that there are two sides to every story.
I 100% agree that no man should uproot his family somewhere and expect that others will support his family for him.
Is it true the priest encourages the dowery?
I was sitting in the pew with my husband when he said it. He also favored the school run along the lines of a military academy.
militarized trads-great :facepalm:
they get that enough from Americanism, K of C,etc....my dad actually talked about one priest he met at a k of C function, said priest was a chaplain and actually said that all priests should be forced to be one at one time, as most are "AMerica/military haters".. :facepalm: :really-mad2: :argue:
please, someone, beam me out of this country, fast...
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I assume these priests didn't give you any references for their position?
An SSPX website link, book, manual, etc.?
It does sound messed up, as you describe it.
Catholic doctrine is Catholic doctrine. And as far as I know, St. Thomas Aquinas is the source of Catholic doctrine par excellence.
Matthew
Father Asher, when he was visiting, said you must never take a girl out without her father's permission, in a sermon, on the Feast of the Circuмcision in 2009.
Now it's one thing to suggest and say it's a good thing to have permission, it's another thing to lead laity to believe that without that paternal permission a girl passed majority cannot be taken out or even speak to someone. But you know even when I showed St. Thomas's teaching to some people at the chapel they still said they believed a father's permission was necessary. From young women to ex-seminarians to old men. They have been led to believe it's necessary. That is not an accident.
I knew a couple, OPC, that their daughters are that way, never date w/o permission, both are in late 20's and single, live away from parents...not sure how permission is allowed, maybe via telephone.........
if a girl is an adult, she is not allowed to make her own choices at that point per your SSPX chapel experience??
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so, you feel they are selective in doctrine...guess if said daughter wants to date on her own, to them, she needs to move out on her own...
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so, you feel they are selective in doctrine...guess if said daughter wants to date on her own, to them, she needs to move out on her own...
Belloc, the bottom line is that they do not teach what Aquinas teaches. Aquinas doesn't say you can only marry who your father wants if you live under his roof. He says you can marry who you want in the same way you can enter the religious life. Are we to believe a young woman who wants to enter religious life can only have the right to talk to religious orders when she moves out on her own?
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so they basically said "who cares about Aquinas"??
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Alexandria,
You appear to be possess the attributes that Fr Jenkins would be looking for to form the minds of young traditional Catholics : hostile, abusive, bullying , egocentric, underhanded . If you play along he will even let you think that you can be an ancillary Jenkins unemployable family goon who can roam the school and church grounds randomly enforcing petty rules . The retirement plan includes ripping off and conning the millionaires who attend the chapel .
Rome, I do not know who you are, I will tell you that Alexandria was upset by one of the Many Many twists this thread has taken when Elizabeth mention something about White Trash. Now, earlier it was mentioned that families move to a certain area to be by a priest/school though they are financially strapped. So, when Elizabeth threw in "White Trash" it almost seemed that she was talking about those poor families. In fact, when asked, Elizabeth brought two women that she has experience with at a school (which I might be mistaken is not even the school in the beginning of this thread). Now, I can find no place where those women were mentioned in this thread except after Alexandria asked about the White Trash remark.
Alexandria has no idea about Fr. Jenkins or his school, except for the fact that Fr. Jenkins and SSPV and some "problem" are liberally sprinkled through many threads on this forum.
Now, Elizabeth has indeed said that she will finally open a thread to explain her cryptic comments on Fr. Jenkins and SSPV.
People on this board had their feeling hurt by what was taken by some to be an elitist comment.
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Thanks Dawn, but if the truth be known, I am glad that this happened.
People here can't hide what they truly are forever. And I know what they are trying to do.
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so they basically said "who cares about Aquinas"??
Not exactly, the priest looked rather perturbed when I mentioned it but the point is this: it's clear to me they have no interest in correcting false ideas about Church teaching on the issue.
Bottom line is they threatened to kick me out for trying to send a message or talk to a girl who was over 18 years old. And wanted to make it seem like I was a delusional predator as well.
It was incredibly malicious and dishonest. Pandering to machismo.
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sad, guess one has to look elsewhere....
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Thanks Dawn, but if the truth be known, I am glad that this happened.
People here can't hide what they truly are forever. And I know what they are trying to do.
And what are they "trying to do?"
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Thanks Dawn, but if the truth be known, I am glad that this happened.
People here can't hide what they truly are forever. And I know what they are trying to do.
And what are they "trying to do?"[/quote
You think this has something to do with the Fr. Jenkins SSPV, SJB and it does not. As soon as Liz starts that other thread that is where it will be talked about. It has to do with some people having there feelings hurt by remarks on White Trash. And, then of course somehow it changed from that to Two Women who can no teach Latin and Fr. Jenkins SSPV intrigue.
Feelings were hurt by the poor persons remark only.
Most of us here have no idea about Fr. Jenkins or the SSPV other than these comments that come up throughout the forum, or how that ties in with this St. Mary's in Kansas.
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You think this has something to do with the Fr. Jenkins SSPV, SJB and it does not. As soon as Liz starts that other thread that is where it will be talked about. It has to do with some people having there feelings hurt by remarks on White Trash. And, then of course somehow it changed from that to Two Women who can no teach Latin and Fr. Jenkins SSPV intrigue.
Feelings were hurt by the poor persons remark only.
Most of us here have no idea about Fr. Jenkins or the SSPV other than these comments that come up throughout the forum, or how that ties in with this St. Mary's in Kansas.
It has to do with the level of control or attempted control and unsuccessful trad schools being subsidized by the "parish" while being a major cause of real scandal in same parish.
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People here can't hide what they truly are forever. And I know what they are trying to do.
This seems somewhat cryptic to me.
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I know this person. It is not cryptic. No more so than the constant little comments about Fr. Jenkins and SSPV. Perhaps you could start that thread Liz promised. Then people would know for certain what is supposed to have taken place. I find it odd that the enemies of the Sede world would not blow it sky high if there was some sort of abuse or corruption taking place over there. Of course if all we get are veiled comments then other families are put at risk. Atleast Eamon came right out and said what was happening. He did not de-rail every thread with innuendo.
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I know this person. It is not cryptic. No more so than the constant little comments about Fr. Jenkins and SSPV. Perhaps you could start that thread Liz promised. Then people would know for certain what is supposed to have taken place. I find it odd that the enemies of the Sede world would not blow it sky high if there was some sort of abuse or corruption taking place over there. Of course if all we get are veiled comments then other families are put at risk. Atleast Eamon came right out and said what was happening. He did not de-rail every thread with innuendo.
It has to do with the level of control or attempted control and unsuccessful trad schools being subsidized by the "parish" while being a major cause of real scandal in same parish.
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Well then I guess it is best in most all cases to home school. I find it strange when stay at home Traditional Catholic mothers do not teach at home. What on earth do they do all day long? It has been a struggle but I am so very glad that I teach my children. That is after all the mother's job.
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Well then I guess it is best in most all cases to home school. I find it strange when stay at home Traditional Catholic mothers do not teach at home. What on earth do they do all day long? It has been a struggle but I am so very glad that I teach my children. That is after all the mother's job.
It's the parent's job to educate their children. That may be homeschool or something else. Not every mother and father is able to or capable of homeschool.
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I meant parents. Though in most instances it is the mother who is home all day.
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I meant parents. Though in most instances it is the mother who is home all day.
I know.
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Alexandria,
You appear to be possess the attributes ..... : hostile, abusive, bullying , egocentric, underhanded .
Thank you.
Dear Alexandria The Bully,
Did you have to reply to Rome in such a hostile, abusive, egocentric, underhanded manner?
:laugh1:
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I will tell you that Alexandria was upset by one of the Many Many twists this thread has taken when Elizabeth mention something about White Trash. Now, earlier it was mentioned that families move to a certain area to be by a priest/school though they are financially strapped. So, when Elizabeth threw in "White Trash" it almost seemed that she was talking about those poor families.
Except that both you and Alexandria know I was not.
It would only "almost seem" this way to someone with a very big chip
on her shoulder who was spoiling for a confrontation.
To anyone out there not feigning scandal at the term 'white trash' it is
the only shorthand I could think of to describe someone like the
characters in To Kill a Mockingbird. Specifically, Mayella Violet
Ewell and her father, Bob Ewell.
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Elizabeth, you did upset people more than one. That is why I commented. I had not even been reading this thread as it is nothing I would be interested in. Period.
Those women had never been mentioned in this thread prior to me pointing out that the term White Trash was offensive. If I am not mistaken those two women do not have anything to do with St. Mary's in Kansas.
Perhaps you should just apologize to the people on this board who were offended by your use of such a mean term.
Me personally? I am probably the toughest skinned person you will ever meet.
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Well then I guess it is best in most all cases to home school. I find it strange when stay at home Traditional Catholic mothers do not teach at home. What on earth do they do all day long? It has been a struggle but I am so very glad that I teach my children. That is after all the mother's job.
It's the parent's job to educate their children. That may be homeschool or something else. Not every mother and father is able to or capable of homeschool.
good reason for real Catholic schools then!
though parents should and required to play a role in education-of the Fide, math, etc..my mother spent hours helping me after school and before with things I had trouble with,esp math....I was advanced in reading,etc......partially due to intellectual stimulation by my parents.....
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FWIW:
It was not my impression that Elizabeth had any intention to put down poor people.
'White trash' is an expression that has been around for a long time, and has been used by a variety of people in multiple contexts.
It can sometimes be meant to suggest that there are people of low character and habits who are not necessarily members of any historically and socially disadvantaged ethnic minority group. Or it can be turned to an opposite use as well.
Example: Once when I lived in NYC, some Mexicans made fun of me for picking up after my dog, so I called them 'wetbacks'. They then labelled me 'white trash'.
In my opinion, people ought not to play into the hands of the power elites, the ADL, who want to make a crime out of 'hate' and 'hate speech'. As kids we used to say, "Sticks and stones, etc. . . .", and it was pretty commonsensical, down to earth thinking.
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Elizabeth, you did upset people more than one. That is why I commented. I had not even been reading this thread as it is nothing I would be interested in. Period.
Those women had never been mentioned in this thread prior to me pointing out that the term White Trash was offensive. If I am not mistaken those two women do not have anything to do with St. Mary's in Kansas.
Perhaps you should just apologize to the people on this board who were offended by your use of such a mean term.
Me personally? I am probably the toughest skinned person you will ever meet.
Elizabeth is not one to apologize, Dawn.
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Elizabeth is not one to apologize, Dawn.
Hmmm. Is that only when you think she should apologize, or all the time?
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Well then I guess it is best in most all cases to home school. I find it strange when stay at home Traditional Catholic mothers do not teach at home. What on earth do they do all day long? It has been a struggle but I am so very glad that I teach my children. That is after all the mother's job.
I'd be tempted to wonder the same thing -- I'd hope they have some altruistic, selfless pursuit they're involved in.
And if they're sending kids to public school they'd better have a VERY good reason for throwing away their children's souls. Harsh, but in most cases that's what it is.
They'll try to justify it, but what they REALLY WANT is the convenience/pleasure of having children gone a bunch of the day, so they can relax and pursue their own interests. They are choosing rest and relaxation over their children's souls -- souls that are supposed to be their prime concern in this life. The souls of one's children are the main subject for parents at the particular judgment.
Apparently out there in the world there's a whole category of women who are "stay at home housewives" who don't have kids or a job -- usually because the husband makes plenty of money. The old "meal ticket husband" where the poor slob works his butt off. Apparently these "desperate housewives" are a greedy sort, talking to each other and comparing notes on how big everyone's diamond is.
The man is gone so much trying to earn money for her next diamond ring upgrade, then she commits adultery with another man and sues her poor husband for divorce. Then he has to lose 1/2 his possessions, etc. The world really has it out for men. For the man, it's lose-lose-lose-lose.
So the world has even worse problems than we trad. Catholics do!
I read about this type in a "don't get married, guys!" docuмent someone posted. It was full of anecdotes. Very interesting -- it made me glad I was in the traditional Catholic world!
Matthew
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I find it odd that the enemies of the Sede world would not blow it sky high if there was some sort of abuse or corruption taking place over there. Of course if all we get are veiled comments then other families are put at risk. Atleast Eamon came right out and said what was happening. He did not de-rail every thread with innuendo.
Wow.
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Wow what? He did tell the truth of what was happening. And,he did not pepper every thread on school or parish life with little comments. And,in doing it his way he warned others to beware.
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FWIW:
It was not my impression that Elizabeth had any intention to put down poor people.
'White trash' is an expression that has been around for a long time, and has been used by a variety of people in multiple contexts.
The "hurt" ones know this also. As if Cathinfo has ever been "politically correct"! :laugh2:
It was an opportunity to attack me personally, and impugn my motives and intentions for posting at Cathinfo.
If it was such a scandal, one of them would have caused a drama over the last person I saw use the term.
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Wow what? He did tell the truth of what was happening. And,he did not pepper every thread on school or parish life with little comments. And,in doing it his way he warned others to beware.
And why did you bring Eamon into this thread?
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throwing away their children's souls
Wow. This is an amazing comment. I went to the best of the public schools in my area for elementary school and for high school and I agree with this statement completely.
Even if the children stay away from the sinful social scene, they will likely be brainwashed and turned into Godless fools.
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Wow what? He did tell the truth of what was happening. And,he did not pepper every thread on school or parish life with little comments. And,in doing it his way he warned others to beware.
And why did you bring Eamon into this thread?
He'd tell you himself that he does not have children, that his situation enabled a certain safety (for lack of a better word) which those of us who do have them, cannot possibly enjoy (again, for lack of a better word).
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I will tell you that Alexandria was upset by one of the Many Many twists this thread has taken when Elizabeth mention something about White Trash. Now, earlier it was mentioned that families move to a certain area to be by a priest/school though they are financially strapped. So, when Elizabeth threw in "White Trash" it almost seemed that she was talking about those poor families.
Except that both you and Alexandria know I was not.
It would only "almost seem" this way to someone with a very big chip
on her shoulder who was spoiling for a confrontation.
To anyone out there not feigning scandal at the term 'white trash' it is
the only shorthand I could think of to describe someone like the
characters in To Kill a Mockingbird. Specifically, Mayella Violet
Ewell and her father, Bob Ewell.
Let's get this straight Liz.
I don't know what your problem is, but if anyone has a chip of the shoulder, it is you.
You seem to have it in for anyone that doesn't see things the "Liz Way" - either they agree with you, or you and your friends have it in for them.
I also get the impression that you absolutely drool whenever there is a hint of any kind of scandal in the traditional world - all the more to drool over if it involves the sedevacantists.
As for the "white trash" comment, it is the way your wrote it that caused offense - in such a smug and elitist fashion; it wasn't because you, dear Elizabeth, wrote it.
Lastly, for someone who continually is on her soapbox complaining about the lack of charity in traditional circles, you evince little of it yourself.
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:popcorn:
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I also get the impression that you absolutely drool whenever there is a hint of any kind of scandal in the traditional world - all the more to drool over if it involves the sedevacantists.
You think this maybe because you want everything swept under the rug? Bad fruits can be ignored because of "the cause" possibly? I think you've bought what DLD/AJC/DJS are peddling.