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Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: SeanJohnson on June 11, 2023, 12:22:55 PM

Title: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 11, 2023, 12:22:55 PM
Flat Earth?
Behind the falsification
June 9, 2023
by
Fr. Frédéric Weil, SSPX

https://laportelatine.org/formation/apologetique/la-terre-plate-les-dessous-dune-falsification 
No, the falsification we're about to discuss doesn't come from NASA, but concerns the tenacious yet false idea of a Platist* Middle Ages, and the ideological underpinnings of this myth.

[Note: "Platist, Platiste, Platism, Plat, etc. all refer to "flat-earthism."  The French word "plat" means "flat," and is where the word "plate," like the dish, comes from - SJ]

The recent coronation of Charles III gave us an image that looked like something out of a history book: the new King Charles III holding in his hand the insignia of royal power, including the cruciger orb, i.e. the sphere surmounted by a cross, symbolizing the Earth redeemed by the Cross of Jesus Christ. This orb is very old. It was used throughout the Middle Ages, particularly in depictions of Christ holding the orb in his hand or under his feet. The orb features a hemisphere divided into three parts to reflect the three continents known at the time. The fact is that the Earth was represented as a sphere long before America was discovered. This should raise questions about an extremely widespread myth, namely that "in the Middle Ages, people thought the Earth was flat". We hear this from journalists, intellectuals and ministers like Marlène Schiappa and Claude Allègre, and even from historical films, history books and school textbooks, even recent ones. In a 2022 broadcast of "C Jamy", sponsored by the famous Jamy Gourmaud, the speaker asserted: "In the 15th century, at the time of Christopher Columbus, many people thought the Earth was flat. They based themselves on what the Bible [image of Saint Thomas Aquinas] said, but Christopher Columbus didn't believe it for a second." [1] And if we consult the barometer of mainstream thought, namely ChatGPT, it tells us, "In the Middle Ages, people generally thought the Earth was flat [...] Scientific theories about the shape of the Earth, such as those developed by the ancient Greeks, were known, but they were often considered controversial or heretical by the Church." [2] Hence we see that the supposed medieval platism is associated with the Catholic faith, which would have dogmatized this naive idea based on the Bible against the knowledge of the pagan Greeks. But it's already been several decades since studies have unequivocally shown that this is a myth [3].

Countless proofs
Aside from the iconographic argument, all it would take to put an end to the myth of medieval platism is to open a few scholarly books by Catholic ecclesiastics from this vast period. We know that Christopher Columbus based his daring venture on an unfinished work by Pope Pius II († 1458), the Historia rerum ubique gestarum, which the explorer had annotated. In the very first lines of this encyclopedic work, Pius II states: "Almost everyone agrees that the shape of the world [4] is spherical [rotundam]; the same is true of the Earth". In the same work, the Pope discusses the measurements of the Earth's circuмference by Eratosthenes (3rd century BC) and Ptolemy (2nd century). Christopher Columbus had also annotated a work by Cardinal Pierre d'Ailly († 1420), the Imago mundi. In it, the learned cardinal discussed the radius and volume of the terrestrial sphere, climatic zones as a function of latitude, and the poles. His logical conclusion, for example, was that "those living at the Pole would have the sun above their horizon for half the year, and continuous night for the other half"[5], a remarkably accurate statement. Pierre d'Ailly was inspired by the Traité de la Sphère by Nicolas Oresme († 1322), bishop of Lisieux and adviser to Charles V. The title of the work is sufficiently evocative. The same Oresme drew inspiration from an eponymous work, the Traité de la Sphère by the English monk Jean de Sacrobosco († 1256), which was a great pedagogical success that was republished, supplemented and commented on for several centuries. At the same time, St. Thomas Aquinas, in the very first pages of his Summa Theologica, wishing to show that the same conclusion can be reached by different paths, illustrates his point as follows: "Thus, for example, the astronomer and the physicist demonstrate the same conclusion: that the earth is round" [6]. It's a truism accepted by the various scientists of the time. At the turn of the 2nd millennium, Gerbert d'Aurillac († 1003), who was elected Pope under the name of Sylvester II, created a terrestrial globe and, like many doctors of the time, commented on Macrobius [7] († 400), who asserted sphericity. Add to this Saint Bede the Venerable († 735), who tells us that "The Earth is similar to a globe", Saint Isidore of Seville († 636), who speaks of the "terrestrial globe" in his famous Etymologies, Boethius († 524), who evokes the "rounded mass of the Earth" [8], Saint Gregory of Nyssa († 395), who describes an eclipse by projecting the "spherical shape" [9] of the Earth onto the Moon, etc. [10]. Of course, ancient cosmology also asserts an immobile Earth at the center of a closed spherical cosmos, but these errors are taken over from the Greeks.

The underside of the myth
All this could be dismissed as unimportant. After all, Christians can save their souls whatever form they attribute to the Earth. But isn't the main point that life expectancy has plummeted to a frightening 85 years, whereas in the Middle Ages it was the hope of eternal life? Certainly, but what interests us here is not the shape of the earth or the science of ancient times, but the origin of contemporary myth and what it tells us about our times. For a long time, this myth has served as a ready-made formula for ridiculing the supposed silliness of a Christian period condensed under the reductive term "Middle Ages". Now, this supposed "obscurantism" is turning against the myth's propagators, all the more so as access to knowledge is incomparably better today than it was in the days before the printing press. It's easy to dispel the myth of medieval platism, when in the Middle Ages it took considerable energy to preserve the knowledge of the ancients. In a salutary book published in 2021, La Terre plate, généalogie d'une idée fausse [11], two academics trace the origins of this tenacious myth. Should we be surprised to discover that the main author of the myth is none other than Voltaire?

Lactantius and Comas
There is some evidence to support the myth, in particular the Christian apologist Lactantius († 325), who is the only Western exception in favor of a flat Earth. But his opinion was not followed by anyone, and he was never counted among the Fathers of the Church. In the East, we find a certain Cosmas Indicopleustes († circa 550) who wrote a Platist Christian Topography. This illustrious unknown, whose very name is uncertain, seems to be a Greek-speaking merchant from the Nestorian schism. The first Latin translation of his Topographie dates back to 1707. Need we add that he was totally unknown in the medieval West? Yet Voltaire cites Lactantius and Cosmas as representing the position of all the Fathers: "The Fathers regarded the Earth as a great vessel surrounded by water; the bow was to the east, and the stern to the west". [12] This fails to provide a basic context for the transmission of ideas. With such an amalgam, we could just as easily say that the 3rd millennium is platitudinous, judging by some of the videos on the Internet: that's taking a marginal thesis for the norm. Even today, it's not uncommon to see Cosmas cited as the reference he never was.

The question of antipodes
In The City of God, Saint Augustine says that those who assert the existence of antipodians [13], i.e. inhabitants of the opposite side of the Earth, should not be believed, as this theory is based on uncertain conjecture rather than conclusive evidence. Saint Augustine demonstrates an empirical requirement that could hardly be reproached to him, and which has nothing to do with the shape of the Earth. Yet Voltaire concluded that the great Doctor of the Church denied the Earth's sphericity! Voltaire also states that "Alonso Tostado, bishop of Avila, at the end of the 15th century, declares, in his Commentary on Genesis, that the Christian faith is shaken if one believes the Earth to be round". However, if you open the book in question, you will immediately discover Voltaire's lie, for this bishop speaks of the "spherical Earth", or "our hemisphere" [14]. On the other hand, Tostado believes, like Saint Augustine, that the antipodes are not inhabited. Pierre d'Ailly, in the work cited above, describes the various theories on the inhabitation of the antipodes as "opinions". This is a far cry from dogma. It was to this marginal question of "antipodians" that Columbus's exploration provided an answer. The legend of a Christopher Columbus who broke the Platist dogma on the reef of experience was then created, especially in a biography by Washington Irving, which contributed greatly to the myth.

Is the Bible Platist?
In the court of Platism, Voltaire of course calls Holy Scripture into the dock. He writes with characteristic venomous irony: "The just respect for the Bible, which teaches us so many more necessary and sublime truths, was the cause of this universal error among us. We had found in Psalm 103, that God spread the sky over the Earth like a skin" [15]. Certainly, if we want to extract an admission of platitude from Scripture, we can always place this preconceived idea on a verse that fits it so well or so badly [16]). The opposite is also possible, since the Vulgate regularly refers to the Earth as "orbis", which we would readily translate as "globe" [17]). But rather than engage in these sterile debates, let's remember the well-known Catholic principle that Scripture must be read in the light of the Magisterium and the Fathers. But Voltaire is not a Father of the Church. Instead, let us turn to the remarkable wisdom of Saint Basil of Caesarea († 379):

Physicists who have treated of the world, have spoken much about the figure of the earth, they have examined whether it is a sphere or a cylinder, whether it resembles a disc, and whether it is rounded on all sides, or whether it has the shape of a van, and whether it is hollow in the middle; for such are the ideas which the philosophers have had, and by which they have fought one another[18] : For my part, I will not despise our formation of the world because the servant of God, Moses, did not speak of the figure of the earth, nor did he say that its circuмference is 180,000 stadia [19]; because he did not measure the space in the air into which the shadow of the earth extends when the sun has left our horizon; because he did not explain how this same shadow, approaching the moon, causes eclipses. Because he has kept silent on these points which - being useless to us - are of no interest to us, shall I depreciate, by comparing them to the foolish wisdom [of the world], the teachings of the Holy Spirit? Or shall we not glorify Him who, far from amusing our minds with vanities, willed that all should be written for the edification and salvation of our souls? It seems to me that, failing to understand this, some have tried, by alterations of meaning and figurative interpretations, to attribute a borrowed depth to the Scriptures. But this is to be wiser than the oracles of the Holy Spirit, and, under the guise of interpretation, to introduce personal thoughts into the text. Let us take [these oracles] as they are written.

Homilies on the Hexameron, h. IX.
St. Augustine makes a similar point about the movement of the stars:

Never does the Gospel put on the Lord's lips words like these: "I am sending you the Paraclete to teach you the course of the moon and the sun." Jesus Christ wanted to make Christians, not mathematicians. In these matters, men only need the teachings given to them in schools.

Against Felix the Manichean, l. I
Is the Church "spheristic"?
The Church has not affirmed platitude any more than it has affirmed rotundity, because it affirms nothing on the subject. All the Fathers, theologians and popes who affirm that the Earth is spherical do not base their thinking on faith, because they believe it to be silent on the subject. They systematically refer to "philosophers", "physicists" and "mathematicians". They give arguments drawn from reason and observation: the Earth's shadow on the Moon during eclipses, the ship's mast disappearing after the hull, or the new stars appearing on the horizon during voyages. This is an important point, because the myth sought to imply that faith was exclusive of science. The believer would have been inclined to seek the truth in faith alone, without leaving any gaps for reason. But this is not the way the Church thinks. The Church Fathers were only concerned to reject the idea of the eternity of the world conveyed by ancient cosmology. Modern cosmology will not hold this against them.

The inertia of a falsification
All these elements may be misleading to the uninitiated, but they are unlikely to impress a somewhat serious historian. The first propagators of the myth were the most culpable. But once the first falsifications had passed, those who followed repeated the Voltairean catechism, driven by a blind faith in progress, without a critical eye, and over time, the falsification repeated thousands of times took on the value of established historical truth. Michelet, who deserves the title of novelist more than historian, obviously took up this fable, among many others. It was also extended by Antoine-Jean Letronne, who held the history chair at the prestigious Collège de France in the 19th century [20]. Over time, an author like Arthur Koestler got it wrong, even though he helped demystify the Galileo affair [21]. There's even a 2015 book claiming to "shatter myths" that conveys a slightly mixed version of it [22]. At first, this myth was propagated mainly by anti-Catholic circles, but over time it quickly came to fool Catholics.

Later elements were added, such as old maps, sometimes exhibited as proof of medieval platism. But to take flat maps as proof of platism is a confoundingly silly argument, which would have us classify the creators of Michelin maps or the designers of Google Maps among the platists on the grounds that they represent the Earth's surface flat. As for the cross-sectional representations, which could constitute real proof, they are not taken from medieval manuscripts but are contemporary productions designed to illustrate the myth! Myth thus becomes the creator of its own "evidence". It's self-perpetuating.

The origins of contemporary platism
Ironically, the origins of today's Platist phenomenon can be traced back to the 19th century, shortly after the "Enlightenment", to the rise of rationalism within a utopian socialist community. Around 1839, Samuel Rowbotham, secretary of the short-lived Owenist-inspired Manea Fen utopian community [23], carried out experiments on the Bedford River, concluding that the Earth was flat. He wrote a pamphlet entitled "Astronomie Zététique" (1849) to defend his strange conclusion, using his "zetetic" method [24] based on reason alone. He later produced a more substantial work (1881), adding a few biblical passages interpreted in a very personal way, appealing neither to the Fathers, nor to Cosmas, nor to the Middle Ages, and certainly not to the magisterium, since he was a Protestant who did not seem to be attached to any denomination. His ideas were later taken up by a Protestant sect, the Christian Catholic Apostolic Church, which is obviously not Catholic despite its name, and then by the famous Flat-Earth Society, which continues to this day.

Conclusion
It is disturbing and revealing that such a gross error is still so widespread. If such a myth could clutter school textbooks for two centuries, how many others are still lurking in contemporary representations of medieval Christianity? There's the supposed ban on dissection [25], the absurd story of the discussion of women's souls [26], the myth of the droit de cuissage that Voltaire was not afraid to attribute to the bishops [27], and so on. Reality proves even harder to find when it comes to real facts that have been mixed with myth, such as the witch-hunt, the Inquisition or the Galileo affair. All these myths took root all the more durably as they reinforced the preconceived ideas of anti-clerics of all stripes, whether revolutionary or Protestant, even as they were constantly talking about "the fight against prejudice". It is in this state of mind that we must find the main cause of these myths: we judge the medieval period to be irrational because we look at it irrationally. We project our own irrationality onto the past, the better to bolster our pride in a present deemed "enlightened" by reason: the past is "obscurantist", and we are finally "enlightened", we say with proud Manichaeism. But the "enlightenment" of the 3rd millennium is not so clear-cut: don't we see people in high places seriously questioning the advisability of placing men in women's prisons or in women's sports competitions, simply because these men have declared that they feel like women. Do we not see elected officials pleading for the preservation of the "surmulots" of Paris? Truly, our world is not right. Doesn't the loss of faith have something to do with this loss of reason? By forgetting the religious verticality that makes man reach out to God, today's Earth has lost one of its dimensions: it has become spiritually flat.


Footnotes:

1) Evan Adelinet, C Jamy, April 22, 2022. The same mistake was made by Jamy Gourmaud in another episode of the show[].
2) ChatGPT's answer to the question "What shape did people in the Middle Ages think the earth was?". Note that if you ask the more specific question "What do recent studies say about the idea that in the "Middle Ages, people believed the earth was flat?", you get a diametrically opposed answer that debunks the myth. From this we can see that this AI was "trained" with contradictory data, the majority of which repeated the myth. The first, broader question thus obtains the answer that corresponds to the majority of texts, i.e. the dominant opinion. The second question aims to direct the answer towards specific studies on this received idea[].
3) Cf. Inventing the Flat Earth, Jeffrey Burton Russel, 1991[]
4) The "world" is not the Earth, but refers to the ancient cosmology of a closed, spherical universe. Confusion between the two is common, even in the works of historians. We have made every effort to clear up this ambiguity throughout our article[].
5) Ymago mundi by Pierre d'Ailly, translated and commented by Edmond Buron, tome 1, Maisonneuve frères, 1930[].
6) ST, Ia pars, q. 1, a. 1, ad. 2um[].
7) Commentary on Scipio's Dream[]
8) Consolation of Philosophy, II, 13[].
9) "According to astronomers, in this world full of light, the shadow [on the Moon] is formed by the interposition of the body of the earth. But the shadow, according to the spherical shape of the latter, is enclosed on the rear part by the sun's rays and takes the form of a cone. The sun, on the other hand, several times larger than the earth, encircles it on all sides with its rays and, at the limit of the cone, joins together the points of attachment of the light." La Création de l'homme, Sources Chrétiennes n° 6, ch. 21, p. 181[].
10) Saint Ambrose affirms the sphericity of the "world" as well as of the sun and moon, but it's hard to find an exact mention for the Earth, as this is not the kind of question that interests the Fathers. However, his cosmology strongly assumes the sphericity of the Earth (cf. P. L. XIV, col. 133). The same is true of Eusebius of Caesarea (Collectio Nova Patrum et Scriptorum, ed. Montfaucon, t. 1, p. 460) or Saint Jerome (Commentary on the Epistle to the Ephesians, Trad. Abbé Bareille)[].
11) Violaine Giacomotto-Charra and Sylvie Nony, Ed. Les Belles Lettres, 2021. We have relied heavily on this work[].
12) Dictionnaire philosophique (1764), article Figure. Cf. also the articles "Ciel matériel" and "Ciel des Anciens"[].
13) The City of God, l. XVI, ch. IX[].
14) Alphonsi Tostati Episcopi Abulensis, Opera omnia, Commentaria in Genesim, Venice, 1728, p. 71-72[].
15) Voltaire has added the words "on Earth", which are not found in the verse quoted[].
16) Some invoke Isaiah (40:22) speaking of the Lord "seated on the circle [gyrum] of the Earth." But as God's seated position is clearly an anthropomorphism to be taken in a metaphorical sense, such a verse obviously cannot be relied upon to derive a literal meaning of its own. We also have this passage from a psalm: "I have strengthened his pillars" (Ps 74:4), but St. Ambrose clearly says of this passage: "We cannot consider that these are true pillars, but rather that virtue by which [God] strengthens and sustains the substance of the Earth" (P. L. XIV, col. 133[]).
17) Cf. the Pentecost Introït: "The Spirit of the Lord has filled the orb of the earth [orbem terrarum]" (Wis 1:7). The Latin orbis is ambiguous in that it can mean "circle" or "sphere". It's the same ambiguity as the word "round": we speak of the "round Earth" to designate a sphere, but we also speak of a "round table" that is nevertheless flat. F. Gaffiot's Latin dictionary translates the expression "orbis terræ" as follows: "disc of the earth according to ancient ideas, for us globe terrestre". But it's clear that Mr. Gaffiot is dependent on myth. If we look at the texts of the Fathers, we see, for example, Saint Ambrose speaking indifferently of orbis lunæ and globus lunæ, which indicates that the orbis is indeed a globe (P. L., t. XIV, col. 127 and 200). In the 16th c., the scholar and poet Jean-Pierre de Mesmes did not hesitate to make this application: "It must therefore be decided that the earth's mass is round, since its shadow is round: which is what the Holy Prophets confess, calling the Earth in hands Orbis terræ." (Institutions astronomiques, chap. 18, p. 54-55[]
18) Saint Basil is referring here to the opinions of Greek philosophers, as not all of them hold to sphericity. Canon Copernicus tells us about the authors of these various opinions: "The earth is not flat, as Empedocles and Anaximenes said, nor tambourine-shaped, as Leucippus said, nor boat-shaped, as Heraclitus said, nor hollow in any other way, as Democritus said. Neither cylindroid, as Anaximander said, nor rooted in the infinite thickness of the lower part, as Xenophanes said, but absolutely spherical, as the Philosophers think." (Copernicus, De revolutionibus orbium cœlestium) These latter philosophers are essentially Pythagoras, Plato and Aristotle. Note that the human imagination goes far beyond the reductive duality between disc and sphere[].
19) This is the measurement given by Ptolemy in his Geography. He used the philetairian stage worth 210 meters, which gives a circuмference of 37,800 km. The real value is 40,070 km. Cf. Pierre Duhem, Le Système du monde, t. II, p. 7[].
20) Des opinions cosmographiques des Pères de l'Église, in Revue des deux Monde, t. 1, 1834[].
21) Les Somnambules, 1955. Koestler is not a historian, but he has the merit of often going back to the sources... except for the pre-Copernican period, when he takes Cosmas to be an undisputed authority[].
22) "In the early Middle Ages, the obscurantism imposed by the Catholic Church led to the idea that the Earth was flat. But Christopher Columbus' contemporaries knew that the Earth was not flat. Lydia Mammar, C'est vrai ou c'est faux? 300 mythes fracassés, Paris, L'Opportun, 2015, section Before Christopher Columbus, everyone thought the Earth was flat[].
23) Named after Robert Owen, founder of British utopian socialism. Owen saw in these communities the only way to lead a "rational" life and founded the Rational Society to promote its ideology, advocating, among other things, birth control and very liberal views on marriage. Rowbotham sought the approval of the Rational Society for his community, but was unsuccessful, although there were supporters. The community made the headlines and lasted barely two years (1839-1841), after which Rowbotham himself judged them "blameworthy and impracticable". Cf. "A Monument of Union": Social Change and Personal Experience at the Manea Fen Community, 1839-1841, John Langdon, 2012[].
24) From the Greek zeteo, "I seek". Like most of those who still use the term zetetics today, Rowbotham claims to be based primarily on experience, whereas he is more of a theorist. He did not invent this use of the term zetetics. In fact, it can be found in the Edinburgh Free Thinkers' Zetetic Society, founded in 1820 by atheist freethinkers from the lower classes[].
25) See Abbé Knittel's article: L'Eglise avait-elle interdit la dissection?[].
26) See Wikipedia's article on the Legend of the Council of Macon[].
27) The legend was taken up by Michelet. It has no historical basis, of course. Cf. Dictionnaire philosophique, Voltaire, article Cuissage: "It is astonishing that in Christian Europe the practice of having the virginity of one's vassal was for a very long time a kind of feudal law, and that at least the custom of having the virginity of one's vassal was considered a customary right. The vassal's daughter's first wedding night undoubtedly belonged to the lord.... There's no doubt that abbots and bishops took over this prerogative in their capacity as temporal lords"[].
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 11, 2023, 12:38:23 PM
Written on my birthday.  That's a sign.  :laugh1:

If SSPX is against it, I'm even more inclined to be for it.

This article is so riddled with errors and oversimplifications that it could take a day to shred it apart ... and it's not worth the time.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 11, 2023, 12:49:00 PM
Until someone can explain this (below) and also explain how there's a solid firmament around the globe earth that keeps waters out, I find globe theory completely unconvincing, the former being scientific reasons, the latter theological reasons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMpyePcfDYU
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: angelusmaria on June 11, 2023, 05:00:48 PM
Until someone can explain this (below) and also explain how there's a solid firmament around the globe earth that keeps waters out, I find globe theory completely unconvincing, the former being scientific reasons, the latter theological reasons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMpyePcfDYU
These and similar observations/experiments are what keeps the door of the flat earth claim open for me.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 11, 2023, 05:27:00 PM
These and similar observations/experiments are what keeps the door of the flat earth claim open for me.

Right.  I have seen no remotely-credible explanation offered for these experiments ... which show the same results over and over again.  Globe-earthers simply SAY "refraction", but that would impossible in the scenario with the video, because the rate of refraction would have to be identical from mile 11 to 10, 10 to 9, 9 to 8, 8 to 7 ... etc. to have them follow the lines of perspective exactly.  Dr. John D also did two-way laser tests, which completely eliminates refraction, since if there were increasing density in one direction, you'd have decreasing density in the other direction, and the light would bend upwards rather than down ... and would not be visible.  But the lasers, place just a couple meters away from the viewfinder of the opposite laser, were visible in both directions.  That completely debunks refraction.

There's no way with refraction the phenomenon would be so consistent and so repeatable, and the images would be so clear.  There would be some distortion AT BEST even if the stars aligned perfectly for refraction to cause this.

I'd be more open to some other explanation, such as the earth's electromagnetic field bends light around it at a very consistent rate.  But no such explanation has ever been offered.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: St Giles on June 11, 2023, 06:32:27 PM
How do you setup a long distance laser experiment where you know that your mirror is perfectly aligned. It's possible the mirror could have been adjusted with the laser on to aim it back where it is supposed to be. That would then ruin the test results, but would ensure the laser shines where you want it to.

Answer me this: why does the sun shine up from below the clouds at sunset, even casting shadows from trees, skyscrapers, and low hanging clouds up on the clouds? The sun must be below cloud level to do that. Near ground level even. I have watched the lit part of the moon quickly grow and shrink more than once, likely due to the mountain ranges and varying height of the horizon changing the amount of shadow on the moon. It was really wierd to see in person.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Pax Vobis on June 11, 2023, 08:50:43 PM
The new-sspx doesn’t have the resources or knowledge to discuss science.  Fr Robinson has proven an embarrassment.  Heck, even Sungenis’ book wasn’t in depth enough.  
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Miser Peccator on June 11, 2023, 09:28:08 PM
Instead of lasers, how about just using your eyes?

When looking out of the window of an airplane, is the horizon in view?

If yes, then the Earth is not a ball.

If it were a ball, the horizon would drop from view altogether.

Even those fish-eyed lens photos proclaiming a curved horizon would not be possible.

Nope.  The horizon remains at eye level showing the earth is flat:

44seconds demonstrates the principle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmQO-YSrdBE

Look, they say that you have to go higher in altitude to "see the curve" when in reality the horizon line would completely disappear from sight altogether.

Especially when you consider the math of their DROP calculations:



(https://i.imgur.com/qWBo0Fe.png)








30 miles away is a 600 foot drop!

40 miles is 1066 foot drop!

60 miles is a 2400 foot drop!


And the horizon stays at eye level???:confused:



(https://i.imgur.com/B8kmjq3.png)



(https://i.imgur.com/IzXC0ME.png)



(https://i.imgur.com/dKNL8gI.png)



(https://i.imgur.com/7LiM7Yp.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/dyntDjT.png)







(https://i.imgur.com/95UOiMQ.png)


(https://i.imgur.com/9SS6Myz.png)



What It’s Like Capturing the World from a Cockpit at 38,000 Feet
(https://i.imgur.com/IrXjS02.png)






What do all of these photos have in common?


The horizon line is at eye level.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: St Giles on June 11, 2023, 10:09:38 PM
Instead of lasers, how about just using your eyes?

When looking out of the window of an airplane, is the horizon in view?

If yes, then the Earth is not a ball.

If it were a ball, the horizon would drop from view altogether.

Even those fish-eyed lens photos proclaiming a curved horizon would not be possible.

Nope.  The horizon remains at eye level showing the earth is flat:

44seconds demonstrates the principle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmQO-YSrdBE

Look, they say that you have to go higher in altitude to "see the curve" when in reality the horizon line would completely disappear from sight altogether.

Especially when you consider the math of their DROP calculations:



(https://i.imgur.com/qWBo0Fe.png)








30 miles away is a 600 foot drop!

40 miles is 1066 foot drop!

60 miles is a 2400 foot drop!


And the horizon stays at eye level???:confused:



(https://i.imgur.com/B8kmjq3.png)



(https://i.imgur.com/IzXC0ME.png)



(https://i.imgur.com/dKNL8gI.png)



(https://i.imgur.com/7LiM7Yp.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/dyntDjT.png)







(https://i.imgur.com/95UOiMQ.png)


(https://i.imgur.com/9SS6Myz.png)



What It’s Like Capturing the World from a Cockpit at 38,000 Feet
(https://i.imgur.com/IrXjS02.png)






What do all of these photos have in common?


The horizon line is at eye level.
We've been over this, the earth is way to big for any significant change in horizon or curve or any of that unless you are several tens if not hundreds of miles from the surface. Certainly any personal confirmation bias would affect what a person sees on such a scale. 
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Miser Peccator on June 11, 2023, 10:34:45 PM
We've been over this, the earth is way to big for any significant change in horizon or curve or any of that unless you are several tens if not hundreds of miles from the surface. Certainly any personal confirmation bias would affect what a person sees on such a scale.


Hmm....well considering the math provided in the ball earth DROP calculation chart

there should at least be a change in the view of the horizon.


Quote
30 miles away is a 600 foot drop!

40 miles is 1066 foot drop!

60 miles is a 2400 foot drop!


These calculations are considerably different are they not?

And 100 miles away is a 6660 foot drop.

That's more than a mile!!!!

A mile DROP in the horizon line??

But if you look out the window,

the horizon is in exactly the same place.

If 100 miles away is more than a mile lower on the curve...

why is the horizon line the same in all of these photos???



(https://i.imgur.com/lSAba9i.png)


(https://i.imgur.com/buMOaHp.png)




(https://i.imgur.com/hHNrpQC.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/EQYCcjG.png)


(https://i.imgur.com/YUEcyta.png)



(https://i.imgur.com/MBtb6Tr.png)


(https://i.imgur.com/nm7LCwN.png)


(https://i.imgur.com/ssVLpo7.png)


(https://i.imgur.com/n493uv7.png)


(https://i.imgur.com/zVU9WGi.png)



No matter the altitude, the horizon line is at eye level.

I mean if the curve is supposedly hiding tall ships behind it after only 3 to five miles out

there definitely has to be a visible DROP right?

If it's true that we "see" the ships hide behind the horizon a mile DROP should a drastic visual experience.



Not seeing any DROP at all here...


Can anybody please show us the DROP??  :confused: 


Please show us some photos or other evidence.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 12, 2023, 06:30:15 AM
We've been over this, the earth is way to big for any significant change in horizon or curve or any of that unless you are several tens if not hundreds of miles from the surface. Certainly any personal confirmation bias would affect what a person sees on such a scale.

You can keep making your gratuitous assertions, but mathematically-accurate computer simulators prove that there would be a horizon drop.  Globers used to claim that people could see the "curvature" from an airplane.  That used to be a common "argument".  Of course, then, in more recent times, you had private groups that were capable of launching weather balloons with cameras on them to about 120,000 feet (4x the altitude of commercial planes) ... and, oops, no curvature and no horizon drop.  So they had to roll out Neil de Grasse Tyson to suddenly claim that at 120,000 feet (same altitude as the Red Bull jump) "that stuff is flat".  But computer simulators prove otherwise.  There's a shot of the Red Bull capsule opening and the horizon line is at exactly the same place from the perspective of the interior camera as it was when the capsule was still on the ground.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 12, 2023, 06:32:21 AM
Hmm....well considering the math provided in the ball earth DROP calculation chart

Perhaps St. Giles could show us his math, instead of just mansplaining "We've been over this before ..."  I've seen several mathematically-accurate horizon simulators that all show the same thing.

So, if you look at those weather balloons at 120,000 feet, just think about this for a second.  If you calculated the curvature from one end of the State of Kansas to the other, you would get ... nearly 120,000 feet of curvature, so the same amount of curvature as the altitude of those balloons we see at 120,000 feet.  Utterly preposterous.  We see no such thing.  And we absolutely should, despite Neil de Grass Tyson slapping a beach ball while proclaiming "that stuff is flat".
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 12, 2023, 06:45:46 AM
I mean if the curve is supposedly hiding tall ships behind it after only 3 to five miles out

there definitely has to be a visible DROP right?

LOL, exactly.  I've always found this laughable, the claim that a sail boat "disappearing" after a few miles as "proof" but then, when private groups were able to launch balloons to 120,000 feet and some did not have the old GoPro / wide-angle lenses, the narrative changed to "you can see for hundreds of miles without seeing any drop or curvature."  It's one or the other, buddy.  Either ships are not disappearing behind the curve (they actually should be based on the math), or else those high altitude balloons prove there there is no curvature.  It used to be that people would claim they can see the curvature at 30,000 feet from an airplane, and cite that as "proof of globe", but now after these balloons, we have Neil de Grass Tyson slapping his beach ball while proclaiming "that stuff is flat" and calling out the fact that the GoPro / wide-angle lenses falsely create the impression of curvature.  In fact, the GoPro lense shots also used to be cited as "proof of globe", and they would hide this from the public, that the images were taken with such.  But then when some of these private-initiative balloons had no GoPros, they had to come out with it and Tyson had to admit the artificial curvature caused by such lenses.

It's ironic that St. Giles mentions "confirmation bias," and that's exactly what we're seeing here with these contradictions.  When a sail boat APPEARS to disappear after 3-4 miles, look!, proof of the globe!  But when there's no curvature drop at 120,00 feet then suddenly it's, oh, no, you can't see any drop or any curvature for hundreds of miles.

With the arrival of new technology, available to the general public and affordable, such as Nikon P900 camera in 2015, and private groups capable of launching balloons to 120,000 feet ... the globe narrative is crumbling.  It's the Nikon P900 that caused the resurgence of Flat Earth at about 2015, since individuals could go out with these cameras and falsify the globe.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 12, 2023, 06:50:05 AM
In Dr. John D's video above, you can still see the 2.5-meter-above-water-level high tide marks on the wind turbines 11 miles out, when those should have been hidden by at least 35-40 feet of curvature at that distance.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 12, 2023, 07:14:56 AM
If the goal of modern atheists is to portray medieval Catholics as superstitious and ignorant by ascribing to them a belief in a flat earth, to discredit the true religion, we should not be surprised to learn in this article that that false myth was invented by Voltaire.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 12, 2023, 07:32:14 AM
If the goal of modern atheists is to portray medieval Catholics as superstitious and ignorant by ascribing to them a belief in a flat earth, to discredit the true religion, we should not be surprised to learn in this article that that false myth was invented by Voltaire.

Anti-Catholics will pass up no opportunity to smear the Church, whether it's over Geocentrism and Galileo, or the Inquisition, or pedophile priests, or whatever their latest smear job is.  It's because they don't want to accept the truth of the Church, so they come up with reasons to justify their contempt for it ... until, as we saw with Voltaire on his deathbed, they realize they're about to meet their Maker.

Unfortunately, the latest is where a lot of conservative Protestants are smearing the Church for the antics of Jorge Bergoglio, where even they call him out for heresy, and for being in lockstep with the Globalists.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Marulus Fidelis on June 12, 2023, 09:20:11 AM
Always the same thing.

> Enemies bring up the inquisition, the crusades, Galileo, etc.

Novus Ordites: "Actually the inquisition killed only a few people, and Galileo wasn't burned. It wasn't that bad!"

Catholics: "We're proud of all of it."
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 12, 2023, 11:34:37 AM
Always the same thing.

> Enemies bring up the inquisition, the crusades, Galileo, etc.

Novus Ordites: "Actually the inquisition killed only a few people, and Galileo wasn't burned. It wasn't that bad!"

Catholics: "We're proud of all of it."

Or, LOL, yeah, Galileo should have been burned.

I love how so many Prots are hostile to the Muslims (favoring the Jews) and want the Muslims wiped out ... but then out of the other side of their mouths condemn the Church for the crusades.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: OABrownson1876 on June 12, 2023, 12:33:44 PM
I am still reading the article by Fr. Weil, but his dismissal of Lactansius because he is "not considered one of the fathers"  is not a small matter.  Lactantius was held in esteem by St. Jerome.  I have read several of the Catholic Univ. volumes on history by Lactansius.  It is difficult for me to believe that Lactansius would hold this position if he were the only Western father to do so.  The church father Origen was never canonized but the argument could be made that he is superior to all the canonized fathers.  St. Jerome says he wrote 2,000 works. 
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: OABrownson1876 on June 12, 2023, 12:42:07 PM
Always the same thing.

> Enemies bring up the inquisition, the crusades, Galileo, etc.

Novus Ordites: "Actually the inquisition killed only a few people, and Galileo wasn't burned. It wasn't that bad!"

Catholics: "We're proud of all of it."
And Galileo was living in a papal palace receiving a papal pension.  So much for persecution!
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 12, 2023, 01:02:21 PM
I am still reading the article by Fr. Weil, but his dismissal of Lactansius because he is "not considered one of the fathers"  is not a small matter.  Lactantius was held in esteem by St. Jerome.  I have read several of the Catholic Univ. volumes on history by Lactansius.  It is difficult for me to believe that Lactansius would hold this position if he were the only Western father to do so.  The church father Origen was never canonized but the argument could be made that he is superior to all the canonized fathers.  St. Jerome says he wrote 2,000 works.

Although his works are included in my Ante-Nicene Fathers collection, he is considered more of a rhetorician than theologian; more polished than profound (as the Catholic Encyclopedia puts it), and "The strengths and the weakness of Lactantius are nowhere better shown than in his work. The beauty of the style, the choice and aptness of the terminology, cannot hide the author's lack of grasp of Christian (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm) principles and his almost utter ignorance (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07648a.htm) of Scripture."

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08736a.htm
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 12, 2023, 01:38:23 PM
I hate the old filtering out of contrary evidence by disparaging the authority of those who don't line up with the agenda.

In any case, none of the Fathers based their position about the shape of the earth on Sacred Scripture (except for a few details), so this really wasn't a theological matter per se.

Also mysteriously absent from the article was that the Antiochene Fathers (that include St. John Chrysostom) also held to a flat earth.

And, most importantly, the Fathers who spoke of the world's shape being that of a sphere were talking about the world INCLUDING the spherical firmament, and the the earth on which we walk.  That is easily demonstrable, and at some point I'll write up the evidence for it (I've summarized it here before).

On the other hand, EVERY SINGLE FATHER believed in a solid firmament, above which were real, actual waters.  But that's going to be ignored by the NASA-globe crowd.  Some Prots see the problem and developed the "water canopy" theory, but it doesn't hold water, pun intended LOL.  Their idea of a water canopy that collapsed at the time of the Flood doesn't fit with the fact that the Fathers believed that the waters were still there and still being supported by the firmament.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Durango77 on June 12, 2023, 02:12:12 PM
Until someone can explain this (below) and also explain how there's a solid firmament around the globe earth that keeps waters out, I find globe theory completely unconvincing, the former being scientific reasons, the latter theological reasons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMpyePcfDYU

I'm not sure either way flat or sphere, I'm definitely open to the idea that the earth is flat because at this point my trust in "science" is basically 0 just due to what I saw happening during covid.  But are there any models that accurately predict the movement of the moon, eclipses, planets and stars that use flat earth as the basis?
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Meg on June 12, 2023, 02:56:28 PM
I'm not sure either way flat or sphere, I'm definitely open to the idea that the earth is flat because at this point my trust in "science" is basically 0 just due to what I saw happening during covid.  But are there any models that accurately predict the movement of the moon, eclipses, planets and stars that use flat earth as the basis?

I don't know if we can ever test the accuracy of any flat-earth models, but that doesn't discount FE, in my opinion. I too now question just about everything that modern science teaches, since I began believing in a flat earth.

It's interesting that there's an SSPX article about FE. They must have a reason for publishing such a thing. Maybe it means that more trads are believing in FE, and they have to take a stand?

I can see by the article that the author hasn't really investigated all the FE resources that are available. I don't attribute bad-will to him at all. He is just ignorant. I hope that he will eventually make a greater effort to study all of the facts.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 12, 2023, 03:21:34 PM
I too now question just about everything that modern science teaches, since I began believing in a flat earth.

This is precisely the danger to be avoided ^^^

Scandalized by scientific frauds (eg., COVID19, moon landing), we begin by rejecting real/all science, and become equally delusional (eg., gravity, rotating earth).
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Meg on June 12, 2023, 03:33:47 PM
This is precisely the danger to be avoided ^^^

Scandalized by scientific frauds (eg., COVID19, moon landing), we begin by rejecting real/all science, and become equally delusional (eg., gravity, rotating earth).

How would you define "real science?" How do you know it's real?
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 12, 2023, 03:53:08 PM
I'm not sure either way flat or sphere, I'm definitely open to the idea that the earth is flat because at this point my trust in "science" is basically 0 just due to what I saw happening during covid.  But are there any models that accurately predict the movement of the moon, eclipses, planets and stars that use flat earth as the basis?

I know of know comprehensive FE model, but the ones out there do reasonably predict most of of these movements.  You also base this question on the assumption that the Globe model explains all this, but there are many occasions/situations where it does not.  Nor is it required to have a perfect FE model to know that the Globe model has been falsified.

When we can see much father than we should ... and this has been proven time and time again ... the Globe Model fails, and then we go in search of another model.  That's how science works.  You don't need to have a full working alternative model to falsify an existing model or a perfect proven hypothesis to disprove an existing hypothesis.

Just a few examples where the Globe Model fails (apart from see too far) ...
-- selenelion eclipses
-- scenarios like July 8, 2022 (where 99% of the inhabited world were in sunshine at the same time), totally impossible on a globe
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 12, 2023, 03:54:13 PM
How would you define "real science?" How do you know it's real?

Exactly.  Where do we know the line between "real science" and fraudulent science?  Is 90% of "vaccine" science real?  Or 10%?  Or 0%?  Kaku indicates that cosmology is wrong by the biggest margin in the history of science.  We've been "taught" about "gravity" for centuries now, but even top physicists are questioning whether it actually exists, etc.  We're pretty much down to trying to investigate each "scientific" claim by looking at the evidence ourselves.

We could say the same thing about history.  HUGE amounts of "history" are fraudulent and written with an agenda.  Where's the line?  Well, let me look at the primary sources.  Of course, as we get closer to our Orwellian futures, as more and more of our docuмents go electronic, what's to stop "them" from altering the original sources?
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Meg on June 12, 2023, 04:24:58 PM
Exactly.  Where do we know the line between "real science" and fraudulent science?  Is 90% of "vaccine" science real?  Or 10%?  Or 0%?  Kaku indicates that cosmology is wrong by the biggest margin in the history of science.  We've been "taught" about "gravity" for centuries now, but even top physicists are questioning whether it actually exists, etc.  We're pretty much down to trying to investigate each "scientific" claim by looking at the evidence ourselves.

We could say the same thing about history.  HUGE amounts of "history" are fraudulent and written with an agenda.  Where's the line?  Well, let me look at the primary sources.  Of course, as we get closer to our Orwellian futures, as more and more of our docuмents go electronic, what's to stop "them" from altering the original sources?

Agreed. We can see that in the main three branches of science (formal sciences, natural sciences, social sciences), that there has been a campaign to force us believe in something that doesn't line up with the author of all sciences: God. He must be our first criteria for measuring any science. For example, social science now teaches that a man is a woman if that man thinks he is a woman. And in the natural sciences, there's the issue of modern science telling us that the the earth is 4.543 billion years old (according to Wiki). This is in conflict with Scripture. There are other example too, and you've provided good examples as well.

I agree that we are forced to look at scientific claims for ourselves. Yes, there is an agenda going on; whether it's for money, or to discount Christian/biblical/traditional viewpoints, or just because one doesn't want to think outside of modern "science."

Wiki description of the branches of science: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branches_of_science
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 12, 2023, 04:29:43 PM
How would you define "real science?" How do you know it's real?

That will be up for debate, but what is certain is that holding ALL "scientific" conclusions doubtful is clearly an error which necessarily leads to delusion.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Meg on June 12, 2023, 04:33:49 PM
That will be up for debate, but what is certain is that holding ALL "scientific" conclusions doubtful is clearly an error which necessarily leads to delusion.

What type of modern science do you hold as not being doubtful at all?
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: SPelli on June 12, 2023, 04:36:11 PM
Written on my birthday.  That's a sign.  :laugh1:

If SSPX is against it, I'm even more inclined to be for it.

This article is so riddled with errors and oversimplifications that it could take a day to shred it apart ... and it's not worth the time.

Wait, what?  Do you believe the Earth is flat?
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 12, 2023, 05:11:41 PM
What type of modern science do you hold as not being doubtful at all?

Gravity, mathematics, earth's rotation, just for starters.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 12, 2023, 05:35:42 PM
Gravity, mathematics, earth's rotation, just for starters.

Any long range shooter knows this, from something called the Coriolis Effect:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouOYAlcvwOQ
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Meg on June 12, 2023, 06:11:17 PM
Gravity, mathematics, earth's rotation, just for starters.

Okay. Does the Catholic Church require that we adhere to what modern science teaches? I don't think that the Church does require this.

There are a few areas of science that I do trust, but only because I can verify them. For example, one area of the atmospheric sciences called meteorology, or the study of weather and weather prediction. It's easy to verify what the weather forecasters are saying by simply looking out of the window. Of course one area of this branch of science also teaches climate change. I do not accept the current modern model of climate change. It seems evident that there's an agenda there. There are other areas I partly trust, but only as far as I can verify them as much as possible.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Meg on June 12, 2023, 06:29:37 PM
Oops, sorry, double post.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Meg on June 12, 2023, 06:32:22 PM
Okay. Does the Catholic Church require that we adhere to what modern science teaches? I don't think that the Church does require this.

There are a few areas of science that I do trust, but only because I can verify them. For example, one area of the atmospheric sciences is called meteorology, or the study of weather and weather prediction. It's easy to verify what the weather forecasters are saying by simply looking out of the window. Of course one area of this branch of science also teaches climate change. I do not accept the current modern model of climate change. It seems evident that there's an agenda there. There are other areas I partly trust, but only as far as I can verify them as much as possible.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Miser Peccator on June 12, 2023, 06:43:41 PM
Any long range shooter knows this, from something called the Coriolis Effect:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouOYAlcvwOQ

Sorry, nope:

https://www.bitchute.com/video/rv2u9fx41NoB/
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 12, 2023, 06:46:30 PM
Any long range shooter knows this, from something called the Coriolis Effect:

:facepalm: ... snipers indicate that they make no allowance for any such effect.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Miser Peccator on June 12, 2023, 06:47:48 PM
I'm not sure either way flat or sphere, I'm definitely open to the idea that the earth is flat because at this point my trust in "science" is basically 0 just due to what I saw happening during covid.  But are there any models that accurately predict the movement of the moon, eclipses, planets and stars that use flat earth as the basis?


This gives a pretty good visual:

HOW THE SOUTHERN STARS WORK ON FLAT EARTH

6min 47sec
https://www.bitchute.com/video/zMCL7aMvP19Z/
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 12, 2023, 06:50:41 PM
Gravity, mathematics, earth's rotation, just for starters.

Earth's rotation?  Earth does not move.

Gravity?  Gravity has never been proven to exist, and even mainstream physicists are questioning its existence as anything independent of electromagnetism.  There's a lecture online from an MIT professor of physics who was teaching that gravity is such a weak force that it has no effect on earth, that what we see on earth is due to electromagnetism, and that gravity only works between planets.  Except that their cosmological predictions based on gravity are so far off, by orders of magnitude, that they had to invent "dark matter" to account for huge amounts of "missing gravity".
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 12, 2023, 06:51:54 PM
Wait, what?  Do you believe the Earth is flat?

Certainly I believe that the earth is flat.  It's been demonstrated repeatedly through experiment beyond any reasonable doubt.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 12, 2023, 07:24:57 PM
Earth's rotation?  Earth does not move.

Gravity?  Gravity has never been proven to exist, and even mainstream physicists are questioning its existence as anything independent of electromagnetism.  There's a lecture online from an MIT professor of physics who was teaching that gravity is such a weak force that it has no effect on earth, that what we see on earth is due to electromagnetism, and that gravity only works between planets.  Except that their cosmological predictions based on gravity are so far off, by orders of magnitude, that they had to invent "dark matter" to account for huge amounts of "missing gravity".

You are delusional.

All you need to do to prove me wrong is go to the edge of the world and take a pic for me (and then jump over the side: If there’s no gravity, you won’t fall).

Any reason you (and any other flat earther) can’t do that???

As for gravity, I prove it every time I drop something.

And for the earth rotating, it is infallibly certain, or I couldn’t hit a one mile shot without factoring in coriolos effect.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: AnthonyPadua on June 12, 2023, 09:15:23 PM
You are delusional.

All you need to do to prove me wrong is go to the edge of the world and take a pic for me (and then jump over the side: If there’s no gravity, you won’t fall).

Any reason you (and any other flat earther) can’t do that???

As for gravity, I prove it every time I drop something.

And for the earth rotating, it is infallibly certain, or I couldn’t hit a one mile shot without factoring in coriolos effect.
This is a dishonest or ignorant post (strawman/misrepresentation). The Antarctic treaty has been discussed many times. No one claims that the earth is a flat 'pancake' that you can walk off... They all claim a dome/barrier around it.

Most flat earths will say density instead of gravity. But the real question is why the direction of density is up/down instead of something else. Gravity is just the current theory.

There are no dogmatic doctrines on a spinning earth. It is far from infallible certainty... 
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: AnthonyPadua on June 12, 2023, 09:25:37 PM
You are delusional.

All you need to do to prove me wrong is go to the edge of the world and take a pic for me (and then jump over the side: If there’s no gravity, you won’t fall).

Any reason you (and any other flat earther) can’t do that???

As for gravity, I prove it every time I drop something.

And for the earth rotating, it is infallibly certain, or I couldn’t hit a one mile shot without factoring in coriolos effect.
As a seperate question. Do you believe in heliocentrism or geocentrism?
(note that there is also non-flat earth geocentrism)
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 12, 2023, 10:00:17 PM
This is a dishonest or ignorant post (strawman/misrepresentation). The Antarctic treaty has been discussed many times. No one claims that the earth is a flat 'pancake' that you can walk off... They all claim a dome/barrier around it.

Most flat earths will say density instead of gravity. But the real question is why the direction of density is up/down instead of something else. Gravity is just the current theory.

There are no dogmatic doctrines on a spinning earth. It is far from infallible certainty...

Wait.  What??

The reason nobody can reach the edge of the earth is because of an Antarctic treaty???

:facepalm:

Ok, to play along with that, just go to a different edge of the earth and snap some pics.  

What’s the excuse for not doing that??
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: AnthonyPadua on June 12, 2023, 11:26:40 PM
Wait.  What??

The reason nobody can reach the edge of the earth is because of an Antarctic treaty???

:facepalm:

Ok, to play along with that, just go to a different edge of the earth and snap some pics. 

What’s the excuse for not doing that??
I'm going to assume you are ignorant. The current idea among flat earthers is that Antarctica compasses the edge of the earth. And the Antarctic treaty prevents people from exploring past the 66° latitude. People have tried and were forced (literally) to turn back or to be destroyed.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 13, 2023, 05:48:37 AM
I'm going to assume you are ignorant. The current idea among flat earthers is that Antarctica compasses the edge of the earth. And the Antarctic treaty prevents people from exploring past the 66° latitude. People have tried and were forced (literally) to turn back or to be destroyed.

I’m going to assume you have not yet reached the age of reason, because no adult of sound mind could really believe such stupidity.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 13, 2023, 07:03:55 AM
I’m going to assume you have not yet reached the age of reason, because no adult of sound mind could really believe such stupidity.

This is by far the best argument I have seen yet for the Globe ... I'm convinced now.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 13, 2023, 07:05:23 AM
I’m going to assume you have not yet reached the age of reason, because no adult of sound mind could really believe such stupidity.

You're clearly ignorant on this matter and are doing nothing but embarrassing yourself.  It is verifiable fact that no private individual is permitted to go south of 60 degrees due to the Antarctic Treaty.  Look it up before making idiotic comments like this.  There are videos out there of people who tried (they weren't even Flat Earthers), and one little boat was met with a battleship and forced to turn around.  Another, in a plane, was met with fighter jets and escorted to the nearest military base.  He asked the base commander whether he would have been shot down if he refused to comply, and the commander answered in the affirmative.  Besides that, the Antarctic Treaty is verifiable fact.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 13, 2023, 07:40:29 AM
You're clearly ignorant on this matter and are doing nothing but embarrassing yourself.  It is verifiable fact that no private individual is permitted to go south of 60 degrees due to the Antarctic Treaty.  Look it up before making idiotic comments like this.  There are videos out there of people who tried (they weren't even Flat Earthers), and one little boat was met with a battleship and forced to turn around.  Another, in a plane, was met with fighter jets and escorted to the nearest military base.  He asked the base commander whether he would have been shot down if he refused to comply, and the commander answered in the affirmative.  Besides that, the Antarctic Treaty is verifiable fact.

Uh, Lad, you’re the one embarrassing yourself with this stupidity.

You should start listing the scientific proofs for Santa Claus or Sasquatch.

Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 13, 2023, 07:54:01 AM
Uh, Lad, you’re the one embarrassing yourself with this stupidity.

You should start listing the scientific proofs for Santa Claus or Sasquatch.

Another genius refutation of FE, Sean.  I'm even more convinced now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antarctic_Treaty_System
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: AnthonyPadua on June 13, 2023, 08:18:36 AM
Uh, Lad, you’re the one embarrassing yourself with this stupidity.

You should start listing the scientific proofs for Santa Claus or Sasquatch.
What sort of response is this? Complete denial of what he said. And then going off about actual made up stuff (1 being protestant satan claus)...

In other less charitable parts of the internet, such a response would warrant words such as; glow, shill, jew, bot etc. Because your post is a complete derail from the topic. It's very 'strange' and stands out immediately to honest more 'savvy' readers.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 13, 2023, 08:45:11 AM
What sort of response is this? Complete denial of what he said. And then going off about actual made up stuff (1 being protestant satan claus)...

In other less charitable parts of the internet, such a response would warrant words such as; glow, shill, Jєω, bot etc. Because your post is a complete derail from the topic. It's very 'strange' and stands out immediately to honest more 'savvy' readers.

I think that the derision to which FEs are subjected speaks to the massive programming / propaganda campaign.

What does it actually matter and why do people spend so much time and energy attacking FE?  If I came on here and posted that I was being visited by purple aliens from the Alpha Centauri system, people would just make the old circle around the ear gesture and move along ... rather than spent hours of their time refuting the claim.

So if either there was no evidence (and the claims were absurd) or else people did not have some vested emotional interest in the question, there wouldn't be this kind of hostility.  And the fact that people have an emotional / psychological attachment to the NASA globe speaks to the fact that they have been deeply conditioned and propagandized about the matter.  It's also jarring for people to think we have been lied to on such a monumental scale.  It shakes people's entire world view.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: AnthonyPadua on June 13, 2023, 08:50:10 AM
As a seperate question. Do you believe in heliocentrism or geocentrism?
(note that there is also non-flat earth geocentrism)
Also this was never answered.
I think that the derision to which FEs are subjected speaks to the massive programming / propaganda campaign.

What does it actually matter and why do people spend so much time and energy attacking FE?  If I came on here and posted that I was being visited by purple aliens from the Alpha Centauri system, people would just make the old circle around the ear gesture and move along ... rather than spent hours of their time refuting the claim.

So if either there was no evidence (and the claims were absurd) or else people did not have some vested emotional interest in the question, there wouldn't be this kind of hostility.  And the fact that people have an emotional / psychological attachment to the NASA globe speaks to the fact that they have been deeply conditioned and propagandized about the matter.  It's also jarring for people to think we have been lied to on such a monumental scale.  It shakes people's entire world view.
Deo gratias that I never had strong faith in the world.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 13, 2023, 08:53:30 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMpyePcfDYU

Bottom line for me is that I can find no plausible explanation for the above (and myriad other experiments demonstrating the same thing), as well as the entire phenomenon where somehow gravity causes the earth's atmosphere to stick to our alleged globe adjacent to the allegedly nearly-infinite vacuum of space.  No experiment has ever demonstrated that this is possible.

From a theological perspective, I have yet to see an adequate explanation from the Globe Earthers for the Firmament, which the Church Fathers unanimously believed to be an actual physical object solid enough to keep actual physical waters from inundating the surface of the earth (except when God allowed some of the water through during the Flood).

As for "ridicule," Bishop Williamson, I'm sure, runs the risk of subjecting Traditional Catholics to ridicule due to his views on the h0Ɩ0h0αx, 9/11, Oklahoma City, etc.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 13, 2023, 08:56:06 AM
Also this was never answered.Deo gratias that I never had strong faith in the world.

I was already aware of other cօռspιʀαcιҽs, such as around 9/11, the h0Ɩ0h0αx, and myriad others.  Yet, despite that, it still took me a long time to come to terms with Flat Earth.  That too speaks to how deep the programming runs.  Every single child does the old styrofoam ball solar system as one of their first science projects, when they barely know how to spell, and have to stare at the globe on their teacher's desk for years on end.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Pax Vobis on June 13, 2023, 09:14:33 AM
Quote
You should start listing the scientific proofs for Santa Claus or Sasquatch.
Santa Claus is based on St Nicholas and i've seen Sasquatch and Santa on tv so both are real.  :laugh1:

But I do wait for the day when Big Foot is proven.  It's a vast, vast world out there.  They could easily exist.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Pax Vobis on June 13, 2023, 09:26:08 AM

Quote
Bottom line for me is that I can find no plausible explanation for the above (and myriad other experiments demonstrating the same thing), as well as the entire phenomenon where somehow gravity causes the earth's atmosphere to stick to our alleged globe adjacent to the allegedly nearly-infinite vacuum of space.  No experiment has ever demonstrated that this is possible.
Yes, the atmosphere next a vacuum in space makes no sense.  Gravity, as explained, is not a sufficient answer.  Density of each type of matter has to come into the equation somehow.  Or...the simplest answer is that the vacuum in space doesn't come into contact with earth's atmosphere because of the firmament.

Quote
From a theological perspective, I have yet to see an adequate explanation from the Globe Earthers for the Firmament, which the Church Fathers unanimously believed to be an actual physical object solid enough to keep actual physical waters from inundating the surface of the earth (except when God allowed some of the water through during the Flood).
Satan's minions (starting with the Greek scientists in the Old Testament) had to get rid of the firmament because belief in such

1.  Proves the story of Noah's Ark, the Garden of Eden, the coming of the Redeemer, and the Israelite religion, and the existence of God, etc
2.  Disallows belief in pagan rituals, sun worship, aliens, etc

This is just part of satan's attack on Truth and God.  It's basic good vs evil.  The devil inverts everything.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: SPelli on June 13, 2023, 11:35:57 AM
Certainly I believe that the earth is flat.  It's been demonstrated repeatedly through experiment beyond any reasonable doubt.

Hmm, okay.  Here are a few objections that immediately come to mind.  There are four times zones in the US.  On the east coast, the sun rises from below the horizon first; an hour later, those in the central time zone see it rise; an hour after that, those in mountain time see it rise, and lastly, those on the west coast see it rise from below the horizon.  If the Earth were flat, everyone in the country would see the sun rise at the same time. 

Second, if the sun is in the sky in one time zone, everyone on the flat Earth would see it.  If it was light in one location, it would never be dark in any other location.

Now, if you reply to the second objection by arguing that the sun shines like a flashlight, in the sense that it shines light directionally, with only a circular portion of the flat Earth lit up, this is my reply: if the sun's light is directional like a flashlight, it would not appear to rise from below the horizon, but would pass overhead and immediately light up that portion that came into the circle of its directional light, just like a flashlight immediately lights up that portion of the ground that it shines on. 

In addition, the reason directional light is directional, is because something is blocking it in other direction. Light itself shines in all directions at the same time. The reason a flashlight shines the way it does, is because the light bulb (that shines in all directions) is tucked away into a casing that only allows the light to escape in one direction.  Do you believe the sun is a light that is tucked away in a casing that prevents it from shining in all directions? If not, it would never happen that one location on the Earth is dark while another sees the sun high in the sky.

And if the sun was tucked away in a casing that only allowed it to shine on a circular portion of the Earth, while always being high in the sky above the flat Earth, you would never see the full circular sun just above the level of the horizon.

Those are my objections.  What are your answers?

Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: SPelli on June 13, 2023, 01:45:50 PM
Earth's rotation?  Earth does not move.

Gravity?  Gravity has never been proven to exist, and even mainstream physicists are questioning its existence as anything independent of electromagnetism.  There's a lecture online from an MIT professor of physics who was teaching that gravity is such a weak force that it has no effect on earth, that what we see on earth is due to electromagnetism, and that gravity only works between planets.  Except that their cosmological predictions based on gravity are so far off, by orders of magnitude, that they had to invent "dark matter" to account for huge amounts of "missing gravity".

But you would agree that the effects that are attributed to gravity exist, right?  If you drop something heavier than air, it falls to the ground. Whether this is due to "gravity" or something else, the effects are the same.  So, if gravity somehow poses a problem for the Flat earth theory (and I'm too new to this debate to know if it does), you can't dismiss the problem on the basis that gravity does not exist, since what poses the problem are the effects, and the effects exist even if gravity itself is not the cause, and in fact does not exist.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: SimpleMan on June 13, 2023, 07:18:52 PM
So let me get this straight, anyone who has ever been presented to the public as having gone on any sort of space flight, from Gagarin and Glenn on down to our present day, has been taken aside and told something like "hey, this is all a big hoax, the earth is actually flat, and if you don't go along with the hoax, bad things will happen to you (and possibly your loved ones as well)".  Furthermore, every ostensibly space-exploring country is in on the hoax, and during the Cold War, the USSR and the US carried on the hoax in concert, ditto China more recently.  And satellites, if there are any (i.e., if they're not just high-altitude balloons that everyone thinks are satellites), fly around in big circles above a flat earth, and everyone involved with the technics of that, from all different countries including the DPRK, is in on the hoax as well.  (I used to supervise the installation of satellite receivers, but nobody ever clued me in.)  And nobody's ever betrayed the secret.

Neil Armstrong's comments and demeanor always seemed kind of strange, but I thought he was just being a reticent, aloof jerk, kind of like Calvin Coolidge in a spacesuit.  (Don't get me wrong, I admire Coolidge as a president, but his taciturn nature would probably get labeled as "selective mutism" today.)
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: AnthonyPadua on June 13, 2023, 09:48:08 PM
Santa Claus is based on St Nicholas and i've seen Sasquatch and Santa on tv so both are real.  :laugh1:

But I do wait for the day when Big Foot is proven.  It's a vast, vast world out there.  They could easily exist.
Pretty sure father christmas came from the English Puritans. It was later conflated with St Nicholas. I don't think the Saint would like people singing about him writing a list of people's sins and judging them and how he is coming on the birthday of his Lord...
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Marulus Fidelis on June 14, 2023, 09:55:58 AM
So let me get this straight, anyone who has ever been presented to the public as having gone on any sort of space flight, from Gagarin and Glenn on down to our present day, has been taken aside and told something like "hey, this is all a big hoax, the earth is actually flat, and if you don't go along with the hoax, bad things will happen to you (and possibly your loved ones as well)".  Furthermore, every ostensibly space-exploring country is in on the hoax, and during the Cold War, the USSR and the US carried on the hoax in concert, ditto China more recently.  And satellites, if there are any (i.e., if they're not just high-altitude balloons that everyone thinks are satellites), fly around in big circles above a flat earth, and everyone involved with the technics of that, from all different countries including the DPRK, is in on the hoax as well.  (I used to supervise the installation of satellite receivers, but nobody ever clued me in.)  And nobody's ever betrayed the secret.

Neil Armstrong's comments and demeanor always seemed kind of strange, but I thought he was just being a reticent, aloof jerk, kind of like Calvin Coolidge in a spacesuit.  (Don't get me wrong, I admire Coolidge as a president, but his taciturn nature would probably get labeled as "selective mutism" today.)
Actually only a few people need to be in on the conspiracy.

People are so indoctrinated that even after they see with their own two eyes objects that should be miles below the horizon they still don't realize they were fooled.

At the end, every single time, people come back to this argument. It can't be because how could soooo many people be lying. No, most of them are not lying, they're just as gullible as you.

Those who see the truth go on to make videos and write books about it, some get disappeared others get ignored. Are you pretending that there aren't flight control, pilot and astronots who know the earth is flat and witness to it?

You think the red bull guy who jumped from the highest point is in on it? Of course, not. What's my proof? You've seen the same flat horizon that he did and you're still not convinced.

No amount of irrefutable evidence will convince anyone until he at least accepts the possibility that he's wrong.

I know it's hard, I also thought FEs were idiots and mocked them but I swallowed my pride and gave it a shot. The evidence is overwhelming and every single objection I had has an explanation.

There's so many aspects to it. For example, the globe could have been proven beyond a doubt a million different ways - photo from space, transantarctic flight, 24 hour sun, etc. But all of it always turns out fake. Why are people faking 24 hour sun videos if they could just film the real thing? Why don't (((they))) let one, just one,  plane of flat earthers fly over Antarctica to end this dangerous cult once and for all?

I could list so much more but there's no point since others have done all the work for me already.

For example, look at the video Save a flat earther by taboo conspiracy for an overview of some key points.

Wanna hear something interesting? Whenever someone is open to the idea that the earth is flat I tell them not to waste time on it because it's not that important. However, when someone ridicules the idea they really need to see the evidence to humble themselves.

Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: SPelli on June 14, 2023, 10:09:50 AM
Actually only a few people need to be in on the conspiracy.

People are so indoctrinated that even after they see with their own two eyes objects that should be miles below the horizon they still don't realize they were fooled.

I haven't seen it.  Can you post something here showing that two objects are visible that should be miles below the horizon?  In the few videos I've seen, the objects were too close.  10 or 20 miles apart.  There are ways of explaining why objects can be seen at those distances, in spite of the curvature. 

Why hasn't anyone shot a laser beam from California to Hawaii?  Or why not just use the sun instead?  If the sun, at sunrise, is visible in California, it should be visible in Hawaii at the same time.  Why isn't it?

And why hasn't Ladislaus answered my earlier objections?
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: AnthonyPadua on June 14, 2023, 10:24:41 AM
Actually only a few people need to be in on the conspiracy.

People are so indoctrinated that even after they see with their own two eyes objects that should be miles below the horizon they still don't realize they were fooled.
This is an important point. The recent covid and (((vaccine))) scam is perfect proof of this. Many people that should be suspect of certain things chose to ignore them due to personal reasons; like the opinions of men, money, worldly honour/fame, their status as 'doctors' etc.

Even if they didn't fully understand the 'conspiracy' it doesn't take much to push someone into going along with something they don't fully understand. (and most doctors do not understand vaccines at all, they just agree with the 'fact sheet' a corporation gives them telling them it's 'safe')

So when the average person who doesn't truly question authority sees all these 'experts' agreeing on something, they also agree with it without question. And anyone disagreeing is attacked for disrupting the 'status quo'.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: EWPJ on June 14, 2023, 11:53:58 AM
Actually only a few people need to be in on the conspiracy.

People are so indoctrinated that even after they see with their own two eyes objects that should be miles below the horizon they still don't realize they were fooled.

At the end, every single time, people come back to this argument. It can't be because how could soooo many people be lying. No, most of them are not lying, they're just as gullible as you.

Those who see the truth go on to make videos and write books about it, some get disappeared others get ignored. Are you pretending that there aren't flight control, pilot and astronots who know the earth is flat and witness to it?

You think the red bull guy who jumped from the highest point is in on it? Of course, not. What's my proof? You've seen the same flat horizon that he did and you're still not convinced.

No amount of irrefutable evidence will convince anyone until he at least accepts the possibility that he's wrong.

I know it's hard, I also thought FEs were idiots and mocked them but I swallowed my pride and gave it a shot. The evidence is overwhelming and every single objection I had has an explanation.

There's so many aspects to it. For example, the globe could have been proven beyond a doubt a million different ways - photo from space, transantarctic flight, 24 hour sun, etc. But all of it always turns out fake. Why are people faking 24 hour sun videos if they could just film the real thing? Why don't (((they))) let one, just one,  plane of flat earthers fly over Antarctica to end this dangerous cult once and for all?

I could list so much more but there's no point since others have done all the work for me already.

For example, look at the video Save a flat earther by taboo conspiracy for an overview of some key points.

Wanna hear something interesting? Whenever someone is open to the idea that the earth is flat I tell them not to waste time on it because it's not that important. However, when someone ridicules the idea they really need to see the evidence to humble themselves.

Although I'm a mostly convinced FEer, the underlined needs addressed because from talking to just average people who have been to Alaska they concur that this does indeed happen, two in my own personal life that can attest to it and they talked about it even before the whole FE movement started.

Please don't anyone start with "they are in on it" or "they were just indoctrinated to see the 24 hour sun" (lol c'mon) or ""they" made a sun generator to keep the lie going" or stuff like that just makes FEer's look stupid and crazy and you can bet they have shills out there doing this exact thing for that exact reason. 

Sure there's videos that can be edited, cut, and spliced that show that the videos of this are "doctored" when in fact it could be the content creators that are doing the deceiving and doctoring but people don't want to see this possibility.

I think FEer's need to address this phenomenon and not just blow it off.  I actually think it CAN be reconciled with FE but it might have to alter the perception of what the sun is or the perception of the shape of the dome (or barrier) separating the waters from the waters, or even where the landmasses themselves actually are in relation to the plane.  
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 14, 2023, 12:06:31 PM
Although I'm a mostly convinced FEer, the underlined needs addressed because from talking to just average people who have been to Alaska they concur that this does indeed happen, two in my own personal life that can attest to it and they talked about it even before the whole FE movement started.

Alaska's 24-hour sun isn't an issue.  It's perfectly consistent with the prevailing FE model.  What's at issue is the Antarctic 24-hour sun.  Only proof of it have been 3 different videos, each of which has been proven to have been doctored / edited / enhanced.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: SPelli on June 14, 2023, 12:24:20 PM
Please don't anyone start with "they are in on it" or "they were just indoctrinated to see the 24 hour sun" (lol c'mon)...

What is the 24 hour sun argument?  How does it disprove the flat earth?
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: MiracleOfTheSun on June 14, 2023, 01:12:58 PM
I haven't been pro or against the FE model - just never really looked into it.  But I've been checking out the vids on these threads and have to say, FE is actually easier to understand than geocentrism because the observations are right here - water always flattens itself out, camera technology can observe extreme distances, vanishing point, etc.  That's way easier than interferometers and aether.  It's actually getting interesting.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 14, 2023, 01:42:16 PM
What is the 24 hour sun argument?  How does it disprove the flat earth?

So, according to the prevailing FE model (a general model), the shape of the earth would have Antarctica not actually being a continent at the South pole, but rather an ice wall or perimeter around the outer edge.

So it would look something like this:
(https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2019/04/ninety-percent-of-our-membership-is-in-the-closet-flat-earthers-in-their-own-words/_jcr_content/par/video/image.dynimg.1280.q75.jpg/v1556434748431/NEWSHUB-flat-earth-1120.jpg)

So because of that, when the sun is furthest south, at the tropic of Capricorn, it would be difficult to explain how it could continuously light up the entire circuit formed by Antarctica.  There could be course be extensive illumination caused by reflection off the firmament, but this would not allow for illumination of the entire perimeter of Antarctica for 24 hours.

But when the sun goes furthest north, at the tropic of Cancer, it's close enough to the North Pole to account for 24-hour sun up in the Arctic (which does certainly happen).

So the claim is that there's also 24-hour sun in Antarctica, but it's never been proven.  There are 3 videos out there purporting to record a 24-hour sun in Antarctica, but ALL THREE have been doctored (and it's easily provable).  In two of them, where the sun is visible, either the cloud formations or the rays coming off the sun are identical to a pixel at the beginning and at the end of the video.  In the third, the sun itself is not visible, but it purports to show shadows rotating around these flags.  But you can see the skips, where the shadow on the flag suddenly jumps about 120 degrees at some point, where clearly something was edited out.  Why the need to edit and doctor these videos if there's a real 24-hour sun?  It would be simple enough to let the camera run naturally.  That only adds ammunition to the claims of FE.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 14, 2023, 01:46:53 PM
I haven't been pro or against the FE model - just never really looked into it.  But I've been checking out the vids on these threads and have to say, FE is actually easier to understand than geocentrism because the observations are right here - water always flattens itself out, camera technology can observe extreme distances, vanishing point, etc.  That's way easier than interferometers and aether.  It's actually getting interesting.

Yeah, initially I just blew off FE.  At some point I decided to have a look.  I have an open mind about cօռspιʀαcιҽs, because we've been lied to about so much, almost about everything.  But I remained skeptical.  Then I started to look at the evidence, and I find the case for FE to be very compelling.  Whenever I approach an issue, I always try to adopt the opposite stance, where I imagine I'm a believer in the Globe an trying to prove it to a Flat Earther.  I can't really do it.  When someone shows me the videos of "see too far", I could simply throw out the word "refraction", but that would just be to explain it away, without any real evidence that refraction could cause what we're seeing.  I could only defend the Globe if I already believed in it ahead of time and was just trying to explain away the FE arguments.  I simply can't explain away FE.  Case for it is incredibly solid.  Probably the only thing I could come up with would be a theory that the earth's electromagnetic bends light around the globe at a consistent rate.  But I'd have absolutely zero evidence that electromagnetism can bend light.  Allegedly "gravity" has been measured to bend light, as it passes near the sun, but the degree of bending was so miniscule, even with the purported mass of the sun that it had to be detected by very accurate instruments, and this degree of bending could in no way account for bending around the globe.  But I looked this up, and science claims that only charged particles (like protons or electrons) can be bent by electro-magnetic fields.  So I would be at a total loss to explain the "see to far" evidence.

Along those lines, there are many other serious problems with alleging that the Globe moves.  While it's a slightly different issue, it's tangentially related in that it invalidates the entire paradigm of modern science.  I could go on for paragraphs with evidence that the Globe does not move, does not rotate, is not flying through space at breakneck speeds, etc.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: SPelli on June 14, 2023, 02:15:53 PM
So, according to the prevailing FE model (a general model), the shape of the earth would have Antarctica not actually being a continent at the South pole, but rather an ice wall or perimeter around the outer edge.

So it would look something like this:
(https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2019/04/ninety-percent-of-our-membership-is-in-the-closet-flat-earthers-in-their-own-words/_jcr_content/par/video/image.dynimg.1280.q75.jpg/v1556434748431/NEWSHUB-flat-earth-1120.jpg)

So because of that, when the sun is furthest south, at the tropic of Capricorn, it would be difficult to explain how it could continuously light up the entire circuit formed by Antarctica.  There could be course be extensive illumination caused by reflection off the firmament, but this would not allow for illumination of the entire perimeter of Antarctica for 24 hours.

But when the sun goes furthest north, at the tropic of Cancer, it's close enough to the North Pole to account for 24-hour sun up in the Arctic (which does certainly happen).

So the claim is that there's also 24-hour sun in Antarctica, but it's never been proven.  There are 3 videos out there purporting to record a 24-hour sun in Antarctica, but ALL THREE have been doctored (and it's easily provable).  In two of them, where the sun is visible, either the cloud formations or the rays coming off the sun are identical to a pixel at the beginning and at the end of the video.  In the third, the sun itself is not visible, but it purports to show shadows rotating around these flags.  But you can see the skips, where the shadow on the flag suddenly jumps about 120 degrees at some point, where clearly something was edited out.  Why the need to edit and doctor these videos if there's a real 24-hour sun?  It would be simple enough to let the camera run naturally.  That only adds ammunition to the claims of FE.


Got it.  One question: how long do FE's believe it takes for the sun to make a full circle above the earth, so that it ends up back where it started?
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 14, 2023, 03:54:46 PM

Got it.  One question: how long do FE's believe it takes for the sun to make a full circle above the earth, so that it ends up back where it started?

Well, it would seem to take the usual 24 hours to make a circuit, which would mean that it has to move faster the further "South" or outward it goes, and researchers have noted the difference sin how quickly and more abruptly the light appears and disappears at surise/sunset respectively in the Southern latitudes.  Even though it moves more quickly in the South, experiments demonstrate a wider area of coverage for the light when there's a glass dome over the top of the surface.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 14, 2023, 04:05:38 PM
I'm not sure I buy those models that have the sun moving parallel to the surface of the earth.  If the sun is in the firmament, and the firmament is in a spherical shape, then when the sun is higher up in the firmament, then it would rotate more slowly, whereas if it were lower (more to the south), then it would rotate more quickly.  That would not be unlike how the closer you get to the equator, the more quickly the earth is rotating, so about 1,000 MPH at the equator (on the globe model) and 0 MPH at the North Pole, and anywhere in between.  So it's the same concept but in inverse.  If the spherical firmament is rotating around the flat earth, if the sun is higher in the firmament, if the entire sphere of the firmament rotates one time in 24 hours, then the points higher up are moving more slowly than the parts that are lower.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Cera on June 14, 2023, 04:38:10 PM
Actually only a few people need to be in on the conspiracy.

People are so indoctrinated that even after they see with their own two eyes objects that should be miles below the horizon they still don't realize they were fooled.
We live in a time in which people see a man with their own two eyes and demand that we call him a woman, allow him to go into women's restrooms and locker rooms, allow him to compete against women in sports, and celebrate him as a superstar. . .  and they still don't realize they were fooled.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: SPelli on June 14, 2023, 05:32:50 PM
So, according to the prevailing FE model (a general model), the shape of the earth would have Antarctica not actually being a continent at the South pole, but rather an ice wall or perimeter around the outer edge.

So it would look something like this:
(https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2019/04/ninety-percent-of-our-membership-is-in-the-closet-flat-earthers-in-their-own-words/_jcr_content/par/video/image.dynimg.1280.q75.jpg/v1556434748431/NEWSHUB-flat-earth-1120.jpg)

So because of that, when the sun is furthest south, at the tropic of Capricorn, it would be difficult to explain how it could continuously light up the entire circuit formed by Antarctica.  There could be course be extensive illumination caused by reflection off the firmament, but this would not allow for illumination of the entire perimeter of Antarctica for 24 hours.

Okay, bear with me because I am new to this.  I still believe the objections I raised earlier in this discussion refute the flat earth, and the more I think about them the more certain I am about it, but I have some other unrelated questions/points.

If I understood you correctly, what FE's call Antarctica is not a continent, but a circular ring of ice along the perimeter of the flat earth.  The white part in the picture above.   A difficulty for the FE's is that some claim Antarctica experiences light 24 hours a day (at certain periods of the year).  But, according to the FE model, there's no way the perimeter could be lit up for 24 hours. Therefore, if Antarctica was truly lit up 24 hours a day, it would disprove FE. 

One problem is that the same word is being used to describe two entirely different things.  To everyone else, Antarctica is a continent in a particular location on the Earth. To the FE's, "Antarctica" is a large spherical shaped disc that surrounds the earth.  The only thing that is the same is the word that is used to describe it.  

Regarding the 24 hr light experiment, if a camera crew went to a location in Antarctica and proved that it was indeed light 24/7, it would only prove that it was light in that particular location 24/7.  If an FE set up in one location and had the same result, it would prove that it was light 24/7 at that particulate location of the disc.  To prove it was light 24/7 in the entire sphere that FE's call Antarctica, camera crews would have to set up at hundreds of locations around the disc shaped perimeter at the same time.  So, the difficulty for an FE is not trying to explain how the sun "could continuously light up the entire circuit formed by Antarctica."  It is to explain how the sun could light up one location 24/7.  

The real difficulty is explaining how the sun could be above the surface of the flat earth, without everyone on earth seeing it.  As I mentioned in my earlier objection, if the light of the sun is directional, and shines down on the earth like a flashlight, then you have to explain how the sun can appear circular above the horizon, and remain circular as it rises from one direction, passes over head, and then sets in the opposite direction, all the while appearing as a round disc.  That's not possible if the sun is always above the earth and shining down on it, in a circular pattern, like a flashlight.   That simple argument is what refutes the Fflt Earth theory.






Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Yeti on June 14, 2023, 05:44:15 PM
I'm going to assume you are ignorant. The current idea among flat earthers is that Antarctica compasses the edge of the earth. And the Antarctic treaty prevents people from exploring past the 66° latitude. People have tried and were forced (literally) to turn back or to be destroyed.
.

This is false. Lots of people have gone to the geographic south pole even after this treaty. There was a computer geek from Utah who even rode a bicycle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Burton) to the south pole in 2013-14.

Here's a list from Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Antarctic_expeditions) of all the private citizens who have gone to the south pole in recent decades:

21st century

Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 14, 2023, 05:47:54 PM
This is false. Lots of people have gone to the geographic south pole even after this treaty. There was a computer geek from Utah who even rode a bicycle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Burton) to the south pole in 2013-14.

No, it's not.  All trips to Antarctica have to be pre-approved by the proper authorities and have to meet certain strict conditions for approval.  Someone has a video regarding the mounds of paperwork that have to be completed.  Nobody is saying that no one can go there, just that no one can go there without strict government oversight.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Yeti on June 14, 2023, 05:48:31 PM
Here is a picture of what is at the south pole:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Geographic_Southpole_crop.jpg)

And here is a picture of a guy at the south pole showing his GPS device indicating he is at exactly 90 degrees south latitude, the south pole:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/Garmin_at_90_Deg_South_-_South_Pole.jpg)
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Marulus Fidelis on June 14, 2023, 05:48:52 PM
Okay, bear with me because I am new to this.  I still believe the objections I raised earlier in this discussion refute the flat earth, and the more I think about them the more certain I am about it, but I have some other unrelated questions/points.

If I understood you correctly, what FE's call Antarctica is not a continent, but a circular ring of ice along the perimeter of the flat earth.  The white part in the picture above.  A difficulty for the FE's is that some claim Antarctica experiences light 24 hours a day (at certain periods of the year).  But, according to the FE model, there's no way the perimeter could be lit up for 24 hours. Therefore, if Antarctica was truly lit up 24 hours a day, it would disprove FE.

One problem is that the same word is being used to describe two entirely different things.  To everyone else, Antarctica is a continent in a particular location on the Earth. To the FE's, "Antarctica" is a large spherical shaped disc that surrounds the earth.  The only thing that is the same is the word that is used to describe it. 

Regarding the 24 hr light experiment, if a camera crew went to a location in Antarctica and proved that it was indeed light 24/7, it would only prove that it was light in that particular location 24/7.  If an FE set up in one location and had the same result, it would prove that it was light 24/7 at that particulate location of the disc.  To prove it was light 24/7 in the entire sphere that FE's call Antarctica, camera crews would have to set up at hundreds of locations around the disc shaped perimeter at the same time.  So, the difficulty for an FE is not trying to explain how the sun "could continuously light up the entire circuit formed by Antarctica."  It is to explain how the sun could light up one location 24/7. 

The real difficulty is explaining how the sun could be above the surface of the flat earth, without everyone on earth seeing it.  As I mentioned in my earlier objection, if the light of the sun is directional, and shines down on the earth like a flashlight, then you have to explain how the sun can appear circular above the horizon, and remain circular as it rises from one direction, passes over head, and then sets in the opposite direction, all the while appearing as a round disc.  That's not possible if the sun is always above the earth and shining down on it, in a circular pattern, like a flashlight.  That simple argument is what refutes the Fflt Earth theory.
That simple "argument" is based on an ignorance of rudimentary physics. Google the inverse square law of light.

To put it in layman's terms, light dissipates with range. You can check this for yourself by taking a flashlight to a high place and trying to light up a neighbouring town.

Jokes aside, the inverse square law of light is one more genius proof of the massive deception.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inTbXswzGeM
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 14, 2023, 05:51:22 PM
Regarding the 24 hr light experiment, if a camera crew went to a location in Antarctica and proved that it was indeed light 24/7, it would only prove that it was light in that particular location 24/7.  If an FE set up in one location and had the same result, it would prove that it was light 24/7 at that particulate location of the disc.  To prove it was light 24/7 in the entire sphere that FE's call Antarctica, camera crews would have to set up at hundreds of locations around the disc shaped perimeter at the same time.  So, the difficulty for an FE is not trying to explain how the sun "could continuously light up the entire circuit formed by Antarctica."  It is to explain how the sun could light up one location 24/7. 

I don't think they'd have to prove 24 hour light in all the locations, just in one location.  Given the perimeter ice wall theory, no particular point along the entire perimeter could be in daylight for 24 hours straight ... barring some unknown phenomenon or alternate source of illumination.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Yeti on June 14, 2023, 05:52:55 PM
No, it's not.  All trips to Antarctica have to be pre-approved by the proper authorities and have to meet certain strict conditions for approval.  Someone has a video regarding the mounds of paperwork that have to be completed.  Nobody is saying that no one can go there, just that no one can go there without strict government oversight.
.

Um, I was just responding to Tony, who said:

Quote
The current idea among flat earthers is that Antarctica compasses the edge of the earth. And the Antarctic treaty prevents people from exploring past the 66° latitude. People have tried and were forced (literally) to turn back or to be destroyed.

If he's wrong, you should take that up with him.

In any case, now the discussion has shifted radically. You have said numerous times that the government doesn't allow people to go to the south pole because it doesn't want them to see either the edge of the earth or the wall of the firmament. Now when I post information that people go to the south pole all the time, you say that yes, the government does allow people to go to the south pole as long as they fill out lots of paperwork. These are two complete different positions.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Marulus Fidelis on June 14, 2023, 05:55:00 PM
No, it's not.  All trips to Antarctica have to be pre-approved by the proper authorities and have to meet certain strict conditions for approval.  Someone has a video regarding the mounds of paperwork that have to be completed.  Nobody is saying that no one can go there, just that no one can go there without strict government oversight.
I get tired of these arguments real quick when people straw man all the time.

Also, it's always a bunch of digressions. No one cares to refute the main see too far argument or the infinite vacuum next to the atmosphere.

I love the 16 emergency landings that prove a flat earth as well. Clear as day.

Attention all globers, if you want to defend your ball earth start with refuting the black swan or the double laser experiment. By ignoring the strongest proof you're admitting you have no answer.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 14, 2023, 05:57:16 PM
The real difficulty is explaining how the sun could be above the surface of the flat earth, without everyone on earth seeing it.  As I mentioned in my earlier objection, if the light of the sun is directional, and shines down on the earth like a flashlight, then you have to explain how the sun can appear circular above the horizon, and remain circular as it rises from one direction, passes over head, and then sets in the opposite direction, all the while appearing as a round disc.  That's not possible if the sun is always above the earth and shining down on it, in a circular pattern, like a flashlight.  That simple argument is what refutes the Fflt Earth theory.

That's actually not too difficult.  You can simulate this over top of a plate by using a little flashlight.  If it's close enough to the plate the light will not illuminate the entire plate, just the part of it that it's over at the time.  It all depends on the size of the sun, its proximity to the earth, and structure of the sun, i.e. whether it's like a light bulb or more directed in its rays, and, finally the strength of its light, as far enough away, it could simply be occluded by the atmosphere in between and could not penetrate through that much atmosphere.  So many factors can be involved in how the light can be seen on different parts of the earth.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 14, 2023, 05:57:49 PM
Here is a picture of what is at the south pole:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Geographic_Southpole_crop.jpg)

And here is a picture of a guy at the south pole showing his GPS device indicating he is at exactly 90 degrees south latitude, the south pole:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/Garmin_at_90_Deg_South_-_South_Pole.jpg)

Terrific.  I could replicate this in my backyard after a snowfall and hardcoding a digital readout on my device.  NASA has gone to much greater lengths than this to fake stuff.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 14, 2023, 06:04:28 PM
I get tired of these arguments real quick when people straw man all the time.

Also, it's always a bunch of digressions. No one cares to refute the main see too far argument or the infinite vacuum next to the atmosphere.

Right.  "See too far" and the infinite vacuum adjacent to an atmosphere have not and cannot be explained.  Also ignored is that the Church Fathers unanimously believed in a solid firmament that holds back actual physical waters.  Globers are found of cherry-picking quotes from one or another Father they think believed in a globe/ball earth, but then ignore the unanimity of their opinion regarding the firmament.  We see this in just about every area, where someone already has reached a conclusion, and then use confirmation bias to filter out stuff that doesn't fit with their prior conclusion.

Everybody touts "science", but the scientific method entails collecting ALL the datapoints and trying to form a coherent hypothesis about how they work together, not cherry-picking the stuff that fits with their preconceived idea and then ignoring the other stuff.  With regard to "see too far," I've repeatedly admitted that this could in theory be explained by a globe ... one that's MUCH larger than what modern science claims it is.  But that's how scientific inquiry works.  You go through all possible explanations for a phenomenon and then try to fit them all together.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 14, 2023, 06:06:06 PM
Um, I was just responding to Tony, who said:

If he's wrong, you should take that up with him.

He was talking about individuals on their own initiative.  Everyone knows that sponsored and pre-approved trips have been permitted over the years.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Yeti on June 14, 2023, 06:07:27 PM
Attention all globers, if you want to defend your ball earth start with refuting the black swan or the double laser experiment. By ignoring the strongest proof you're admitting you have no answer.
.

Just a mirage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirage).
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Marulus Fidelis on June 14, 2023, 06:12:16 PM
.

Just a mirage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirage).
And there it is, the magic word. Consistent mirages whenever someone tries to find the curvature it miraculously disappears.

You just demonstrated to everyone of good will you just wave off evidence and don't explain anything.

I know all about how mirages work, if you did you wouldn't be embarrassing yourself like this.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: SPelli on June 14, 2023, 06:27:48 PM
That simple "argument" is based on an ignorance of rudimentary physics. Google the inverse square law of light.

To put it in layman's terms, light dissipates with range. You can check this for yourself by taking a flashlight to a high place and trying to light up a neighbouring town.

But that's not what happens with the sun. The light of the sun doesn't gradually dissipate as it passes over, in such a way that while it is still seen high in the sky, it becomes gradually darker on the Earth the farther away the sun gets, and the sun itself gradually fades away into blackness high in the sky. That aint what happens. 

What happens is that the sun gradually rises from the below the horizon, in such a way, that you first see the top of the bright sun, then you see the middle, then you see the entire sphere of the blindingly bright sun. At that point, it is light outside and it happens in about 30 minutes.  Then the sphere continues to rise high in the sky, passes over head, and then begins its descent, gradually disappearing over the horizon in the same way that it rose.  It remains light outside from the time it rises until the time it begins to set. And the transition from light to dark and vice versa, only takes 30 minutes.  There is no gradual darkness as the sun gets farther away as it remains high in the sky.  It gets dark immediately when (and because) it goes down below the horizon.  And if the Earth were flat, everyone on the surface would see it rise and set at the same time. 

Disproving FE is simple if you just use good old fashion common sense. 

Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 14, 2023, 06:32:50 PM
And there it is, the magic word. Consistent mirages whenever someone tries to find the curvature it miraculously disappears.

You just demonstrated to everyone of good will you just wave off evidence and don't explain anything.

I know all about how mirages work, if you did you wouldn't be embarrassing yourself like this.

Right, they just throw the word out there, along with refraction.  Mirages don't work for laser experiments, and refraction is disproven by the two-way laser experiments.  It's amazing how mirages just appear on command by Flat Earthers.

But these are very interesting magical mirages.  So, first the mirage erases the horizon line and water bulge between Dr. John D and the 6 wind turbines between 8 and 11 miles away, and then re-paints the horizon line behind these.  Finally, this mirage repaints each and every one of the turbines (with half a mile between each) so that they follow the exact line that would be expected by perspective, eliminating each and every water bulge between each of the turbines.

First of all, mirages simply do not and cannot have the properties of bending light.  Most FEs would refer to "refraction".  But with both mirages and refraction you get image distortion.  In any case, with these images you'd have to have a perfectly consistent refraction factor the entirety of the 11 miles shown in the video.  At no point can there be the slightest deviation, or otherwise the images would start blurring badly, with various artifacts all over them.

It's an epic fail.  But they throw that word out there because they're already decided beforehand that the earth must be a globe and so they come up with anything that sounds good to them and claim its evidence or proof.

I'd put money on it that no more than 1 of the globers here actually watched the video.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Yeti on June 14, 2023, 06:42:45 PM
And if the Earth were flat, everyone on the surface would see it rise and set at the same time.
.

Strictly speaking, no one would see it rise and set at all.

The way we see the sun sink below the horizon is only possible on a globe earth.

I mentioned this earlier. You can stand on the shore of a large body and water and watch the sun set over the water. You will see the sun sink below the horizon. The bottom half of the sun will disappear behind the surface of the water, and the sun will appear to sink below the surface of the water. It will go lower and lower as more of it falls behind the surface of the water.

Flat earth theory cannot explain this.

This is what it looks like.

(http://res.freestockphotos.biz/pictures/17/17836-sun-setting-over-the-ocean-pv.jpg)
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 14, 2023, 06:43:22 PM
But that's not what happens with the sun. The light of the sun doesn't gradually dissipate as it passes over, in such a way that while it is still seen high in the sky, it becomes gradually darker on the Earth the farther away the sun gets, and the sun itself gradually fades away into blackness high in the sky. That aint what happens. 

What happens is that the sun gradually rises from the below the horizon, in such a way, that you first see the top of the bright sun, then you see the middle, then you see the entire sphere of the blindingly bright sun. At that point, it is light outside and it happens in about 30 minutes.  Then the sphere continues to rise high in the sky, passes over head, and then begins its descent, gradually disappearing over the horizon in the same way that it rose.  It remains light outside from the time it rises until the time it begins to set. And the transition from light to dark and vice versa, only takes 30 minutes.  There is no gradual darkness as the sun gets farther away as it remains high in the sky.  It gets dark immediately when (and because) it goes down below the horizon.  And if the Earth were flat, everyone on the surface would see it rise and set at the same time.

Disproving FE is simple if you just use good old fashion common sense.

"Common sense" except that your observations and assumptions are entirely incorrect.  "Common sense" for you is codeword for ... you've been brainwashed into the Globe Model and you've construed and interpreted all phenomena as being consistent with it.

There have been videos showing "sunsets" where the sun appears to be disappearing beneath the "horizon" but then they zoom in and the entirety of the sun is still completely over the horizon.  At certain distances, without the benefit of zoom, the sun is appearing to converge with and sink below the horizon, but that's due to the laws of perspective.  There are in fact videos that have been made showing not only this phenomenon, but then showing the sun completely fade away while the entirety of sun's circle is still above the horizon line.

This is the same "old fashion common sense" that concludes that ships are going over the horizon when their hulls start to disappear.  But then you zoom in on them with good optics, and the entire ship magically re-appears.  Same thing happens with the sun, there's a perception of setting caused by perspective and convergence with the horizon.  It gets dimmer and dimmer as it gets farther away, until the light is not strong enough to break through the atmosphere between it and the observer.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: SPelli on June 14, 2023, 06:50:12 PM
There have been videos showing "sunsets" where the sun appears to be disappearing beneath the "horizon" but then they zoom in and the entirety of the sun is still completely over the horizon.

Evidence please.  There is no way a camera can see the sun after it sets below the horizon by zooming in.  Prove me wrong by providing a link to the evidence.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 14, 2023, 07:25:08 PM
Evidence please.  There is no way a camera can see the sun after it sets below the horizon by zooming in.  Prove me wrong by providing a link to the evidence.

Here are two showing sun fadeout.  And I'll find the zoom-in that brings the sun back into full view after it appears to have set.  There are also videos showing the sun shrinking over a dry / desert environment, which is not possible if the sun is 93 million miles away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5w8EetFwGo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bgO_MelmGw
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Yeti on June 14, 2023, 07:43:13 PM
Here are two showing sun fadeout.  And I'll find the zoom-in that brings the sun back into full view after it appears to have set.  There are also videos showing the sun shrinking over a dry / desert environment, which is not possible if the sun is 93 million miles away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5w8EetFwGo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bgO_MelmGw
.

Regarding the first video, I don't know what that is a video of, but that is not at all what it looks like when the sun sets over a body of water. This is something you have to see in real life, not on your computer screen. I've seen it in real life. It looks like the image I posted earlier.

I haven't seen the second video yet, but you can't exactly refute what people see in real life with a video from YouTube. Especially if you're talking about something that is as common a sight as a sunset or a ship disappearing in the distance on the ocean.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: SPelli on June 14, 2023, 07:56:50 PM
Here are two showing sun fadeout.  And I'll find the zoom-in that brings the sun back into full view after it appears to have set.  There are also videos showing the sun shrinking over a dry / desert environment, which is not possible if the sun is 93 million miles away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5w8EetFwGo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bgO_MelmGw

You've got to be kidding.  You accept that video as proof that the sun doesn't set below the horizon - when you can see it happen with your own eyes any day of the week - without question, yet distrust and dismiss anything from NASA that proves the Earth is a globe?  Try a similar test yourself and see if the sun fades away above the horizon or drops below it. 

Both videos also make it appear that it is dark outside while the sun is above the horizon. Is that what you see at sunset?  Why would you believe an easily manipulated Youtube video over what your own senses perceive? 
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Pax Vobis on June 14, 2023, 08:08:14 PM
Common sense tells us that, as big as NASA says the sun is, which is 109x bigger than the earth, that we shouldn’t see it disappear at all.  It’s much too big and bright.  
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Yeti on June 14, 2023, 08:11:17 PM
Here is a sunrise in Myrtle Beach. The same thing but in reverse. It is accelerated so you have to watch quickly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIOUoSlkZ9A
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: SPelli on June 14, 2023, 08:14:00 PM
Here are two showing sun fadeout.  And I'll find the zoom-in that brings the sun back into full view after it appears to have set.  There are also videos showing the sun shrinking over a dry / desert environment, which is not possible if the sun is 93 million miles away.

And the second video contradicts the first.  The first shows the full sphere fade away above the horizon; the second video shows half of the sphere below the horizon.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: SPelli on June 14, 2023, 08:34:35 PM
Here is a sunrise in Myrtle Beach. The same thing but in reverse. It is accelerated so you have to watch quickly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIOUoSlkZ9A

Perfectly consistent with what we see with our own eyes.  
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 15, 2023, 07:25:33 AM
Perfectly consistent with what we see with our own eyes. 

Don't be ridiculous.  There are a thousand reasons why your own "eyes" are mislead by various optical phenomana, from perspective, to atmospheric distortion, moisture in the atmosphere, and a thousand other things.  Next you'll be claiming that you saw the miracle of the sun dancing at Medjugorje.  There are times when the moon looks huge, when it's low on the horizon, due to magnification from atmospheric moisture.  This "what we see with our own eyes" is the biggest bunch of unscientific nonsense I've ever seen ... for those claiming to be "following the science".

What you're really referring to is your own "brain" and not your eyes.  You've been brainwashed into believing that the earth is a ball in space and so you see what you want to see.

But there is a ton of evidence to falsify the globe model.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 15, 2023, 07:32:59 AM
And the second video contradicts the first.  The first shows the full sphere fade away above the horizon; the second video shows half of the sphere below the horizon.

No it doesn't.  Try to pay attention.  First one shows a sun fadeout.  Second one shows how moisture in the atmosphere and heat (similar to the bike rider) can cause the sun to appear to set due to a reflection of the bottom half of the sun.  But in the second one as well the sun fades away before "descending" below the horizon line.

You're showing an incredible amount of ignorance, not realizing that sunsets and sunrises can have different appearances due to atmospheric conditions, and particularly the amount of moisture in the atmosphere.

In fact, the globers have to acknowledge that as well.  Except they acknowledge it only when it servers their agenda and then dismiss it when it doesn't.  If the sun were 93 million miles away, it should never change size (except for a tiny fraction), since a few thousand miles is nothing compared to 93 million.  At all times the sun will be roughly the same distance away.  But there's plenty of video demonstrating the sun changing apparent size.  And the only explanation the globers can use is that it's due to atmospheric conditions.  But then when they have video of the sun APPEARING to "set", suddenly there's no more "atmospheric conditions" in play and what "your own eyes" see is in fact undistorted reality.  This alone demonstrates the intellectual dishonesty of the globers.

There's plenty of video out there showing the sun decreasing significantly in size as it moves away.  So what would "your eyes" say about that?  In fact, those videos are generally taken over desert environment where there's little atmospheric moisture that could cause magnification.  But atmospheric magnification would generally cause to INCREASE in size as it gets "lower" in the sky, as the lower it gets, the more and more humid atmosphere you'd be looking through.  But the opposite is shown in many videos.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: SPelli on June 18, 2023, 06:34:13 PM
Don't be ridiculous.  There are a thousand reasons why your own "eyes" are mislead by various optical phenomana, from perspective, to atmospheric distortion, moisture in the atmosphere, and a thousand other things.

So, you don't believe the sun dips below the horizon, even though you can see it happen on any clear day?  Do you really believe everyone's eyes are playing tricks on them?  Do you really believe what happens is that the sun gradually descends at an even pace until it reaches the level of the horizon and then only appears to dip down below it. That when it reaches the level of the horizon, what actually happens is that the light, which would blind you if you stared at it, fades to black in about 30 minutes due to the distance that it travels, and not because it dips below the horizon, which is what your eyes see taking place?  Is that really what you believe?  Or is that what you are forced to believe, against your better judgment, in order to continue believing that the Earth is flat?

Below are several unbiased sunset videos, the purpose of which is to show the green flash that takes place just before the top of the sun dips below the horizon. The reason it does so, is because green is the last color that appears, but the fact that they are docuмenting the green flash proves that they are not trying to prove the Earth sets; just to docuмent what happens when it does set. 

Watch these and ask yourself if what is actually happening, is that the entire round sun is fading to black, while remaining above the horizon, and not dipping down below it.


 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTen8-LmXfM)Sunset Green Flash - Timelapse - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QacEUtLE0fo)

Did the entire round sun fade to black, while remaining round in appearance, or did the sun gradually dip below the surface?  Here are two more unbiased videos of a sunset.

SUN SETTING ON OCEAN - Do you see the green flash? - YouTube
 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RO278r4K_Kw)
A Green Flash at Sunset. - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTen8-LmXfM)


If the sun dips below the horizon, the Flat earth theory is proven false.  It is as simple as that.

Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 18, 2023, 08:32:07 PM
So, you don't believe the sun dips below the horizon, even though you can see it happen on any clear day? 

No.  Try to spend about 5 minutes looking into something called perspective.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Pax Vobis on June 18, 2023, 09:42:24 PM

Quote
Don't be ridiculous.  There are a thousand reasons why your own "eyes" are mislead by various optical phenomana, from perspective, to atmospheric distortion, moisture in the atmosphere, and a thousand other things. 
Yeah, the eyes were designed to see colors and recognize objects close at hand.  One of the least reliable attributes of our eyesight is depth perception, especially at long distances.  Countless experiments of people not recognizing objects when you get past a mere 50 yards.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: MiracleOfTheSun on June 23, 2023, 06:33:39 PM
I used to live in Santa Barbara so the experiment done in the video below is done at a place I'm very familiar with.  I think this is very interesting.

1. Curve Calculator shows that 29 feet of the object at the 10mile distance will be obscured by curvature.
(https://i.imgur.com/kM205cA.png)


2. The oil rigs off Santa Barbara are 160' in height, meaning that the furthest rig in the video should have 29' of 'obscurity' leaving the top 131' to be visible.

(https://i.imgur.com/XhWfBup.png)

3. The 4 min video shows clearly that the rig (both actually) is entirely visible from top to bottom and the horizon is even further out.  Compelling stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmJ7-hVeNPY&list=PLltxIX4B8_UT4qSV8ENCnqPvReRKt3FmF&index=1&pp=iAQB
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 23, 2023, 07:22:49 PM
I used to live in Santa Barbara so the experiment done in the video below is done at a place I'm very familiar with.  I think this is very interesting.

1. Curve Calculator shows that 29 feet of the object at the 10mile distance will be obscured by curvature.


2. The oil rigs off Santa Barbara are 160' in height, meaning that the furthest rig in the video should have 29' of 'obscurity' leaving the top 131' to be visible.


3. The 4 min video shows clearly that the rig (both actually) is entirely visible from top to bottom and the horizon is even further out.  Compelling stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmJ7-hVeNPY&list=PLltxIX4B8_UT4qSV8ENCnqPvReRKt3FmF&index=1&pp=iAQB

Yes, there are many such experiments, and they all show the same thing, including a world record photograph (not taken by a Flat Earther) showing the Alps from 700 miles away when they should have been hidden by 45 miles of curvature.  There's no plausible explanation for this.  There's one guy who was taking infrared photos on a plane, and seeing things thousands of miles away that should have been hidden by miles of curvature.  This gentleman (used to work for NASA) ran all the infrared photos he took on a long flight through photogrammetry software (which is known to be extremely accurate), and the software indicated that the surface was completely flat.  There are two-way laser experiments.  Dr. John D did experiments on wind turbines between 8.5 and 11 miles away, and he could still see the "high tide" marks on the posts, which were merely 2.5 meters above the water and should have been hidden.  He's also conducted two-way laser experiments, ruling out refraction.  Others have done laser experiments at distances of 27+ miles.  Really, the only "refutation" Globe Earthers have is to throw the word "refraction" at you.  It's simply not plausible.  I'm open to some other explanation, but refraction just doesn't cut it.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Pax Vobis on June 23, 2023, 07:52:35 PM

Quote
The oil rigs off Santa Barbara are 160' in height, meaning that the furthest rig in the video should have 29' of 'obscurity' leaving the top 131' to be visible.
It's good to see people still exist with an open mind and a thirst for truth, wherever it leads.



Quote
Really, the only "refutation" Globe Earthers have is to throw the word "refraction" at you.  It's simply not plausible.  I'm open to some other explanation, but refraction just doesn't cut it.
Right.  A lazer, telescope, video camera, etc...all of these are designed to see things straight ahead.  They aren't designed to see below curves, or account for changes in elevation.  No amount of 'science mumbo jumbo' can explain away the lack of curve.  
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Giovanni Berto on June 23, 2023, 08:29:11 PM
I am no expert, but it was the laser experiments that convinced me that the Earth is flat. There is no way to explain the results on a globe Earth.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Yeti on June 23, 2023, 08:48:45 PM
I am no expert, but it was the laser experiments that convinced me that the Earth is flat. There is no way to explain the results on a globe Earth.
.

Ever seen a mirage, my friend?
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Giovanni Berto on June 23, 2023, 09:06:02 PM
.

Ever seen a mirage, my friend?

Recorded on video? With bright lasers shining? Not that I can recall.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Yeti on June 23, 2023, 09:13:15 PM
Recorded on video? With bright lasers shining? Not that I can recall.
.

I'm sorry, I don't understand your objection. There are certainly videos (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-Lacu0VG3Y) of mirages (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAAtCXVvSi4).

I'm not sure why people here think lasers are immune to the properties of light.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Ladislaus on June 23, 2023, 09:19:57 PM
.

Ever seen a mirage, my friend?

Idiotic.  No mirage can explain consistent "curvature" of light around a globe including over the span of 700 miles.  It's utter hogwash and desperation due to your brainwashing.  No mirage will bend an image around the globe that should be hidden by 45 miles of curvature.  And mirages don't affect lasers especially two-way lasers.  Just a pathetic pile of horse manure.  Prove that a mirage can explain these phenomena instead of throwing words out there.  Thousands of such experiments are all ... mirages, or refraction.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Giovanni Berto on June 23, 2023, 09:24:29 PM
.

I'm sorry, I don't understand your objection. There are certainly videos (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-Lacu0VG3Y) of mirages (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAAtCXVvSi4).

I'm not sure why people here think lasers are immune to the properties of light.

Yes, some phenomena can be explained by refraction and air humidity (or should I say moisture?).

But, as far as I know, there is no way to explain it over greater distances. That swan something experiment is quite convincing too. For me anyway.

Maybe someone could use very long cables instead of lasers. Then light phenomena could not be to blame.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: SimpleMan on June 23, 2023, 09:56:33 PM
Just a couple of random thoughts here:

First, what about television and FM radio signals that rely on line of sight (as opposed to AM and shortwave signals that travel far longer distances)?  Just speaking about TV signals (with which I have far more experience, I've been a hobbyist for over 50 years), given a totally flat surface (i.e., with no hills or mountains between you and the TV transmitter), the signal normally peters out after about 75-80 miles.  (I won't complicate the scenario with "knife-edge propagation", where the signal hits a mountain ridge or similar obstruction and glances off the top, with enhanced reception on the far side of the ridge --- that can enhance coverage areas considerably, and in the mountains, TV signals can do bizarre things.  Very often, what cities you get TV stations from depends on what side of the mountain you live on, and TV signals also "snake" down valleys and similar features.)  TV towers are no more than 2000' tall, lower if they are on a high mountain, as the FCC wouldn't tolerate a 2000' tower on top of a 5000' mountain.  If the earth would flat, that signal would go on forever, or at least until it were dissipated so as to be too weak for reception.  Yet it doesn't do that.  Here's an example of an idealized situation, where the signal goes out over water (I used WSVN channel 9 Miami, to show a signal that largely goes over either water or pancake-flat terrain, the tower is 1014 feet tall at sea level):


(https://i.imgur.com/vAQRRAB.png)

Notice that the signal abruptly stops about 60-80 miles out (I imagine they truncate it so as not to waste signal over the ocean where there are no viewers, also, the signal is directionalized north-south, presumably for similar reasons, whereas most of the time, TV signals are omnidirectional).  Granted, out at the edges, the signal is weaker (the area shaded in light red), but it reaches a certain point, and >POOF!<, no signal at all.

Second, what about microwave signals?  Unlike conventional TV signals, they are laser-precise, used to get a signal straight from one point to another.  The first example that comes to mind is WHIS-TV in Bluefield, West Virginia (now WVVA), which had to get a microwave signal from Roanoke, some 70 miles distant (the following is snipped from https://jeff560.tripod.com/whis2.html (https://jeff560.tripod.com/whis2.html)), to be able to offer network programming which didn't get all the way to Bluefield:

How was the new station to supply sufficient programming to justify its existence? Network was the obvious answer. But, as usual, there was a hitch. There were no network common carrier facilities, and when approached on the subject, the American Telephone & Telegraph Company indicated it had no plans to put in common carrier connections between Bluefield and Roanoke, the closest city receiving network television signals.
With typical resourcefulness and determination, Jim and Hugh Shott (by now president and general manager, respectively) decided to build their own microwave relay system to bring NBC programs from Roanoke, a distance of some 70 air miles. RCA, pioneer in broadcast electronics, agreed that such a theory was sound, but had never been attempted over such terrain nor for such distances. They accepted the challenge of creating necessary equipment, but Pat Flanagan was handed the awesome assignment of planning, installing and operating the system, an entirely new and unusual job!
Pat poured over U. S. geodetic maps tediously selecting and rejecting routes and sites for relay transmitters and receivers. Eventually they settled on the first relay receiver and transmitter 13 miles west of there to a spot appropriately named Dismal Peak; and from there to the top of East River Mountain. It looked good on the map. Getting men and equipment up the rattlesnake infested, rocky mountainsides was something else! Equipped with compass, binoculars, searchlights, mirrors and snake-bite kits, Pat and his boys set out.
First, they leased space at station WDBJ to house equipment to pick up and transmit the network signals from AT&T. Then the direct line-of-sight path (the only way microwave can travel) from Roanoke to Poor Mountain was established by a man standing on top of the Mountain State and Trust Building in Roanoke reflecting sunlight with a mirror so that another man on the 13-mile distant Poor Mountain could pinpoint the originating location. This process was then repeated from that site to Dismal Peak and again to East River Mountain.
Microwave travels much as a beam of light travels. The transmitting antenna "dish" projects them as an automobile headlight reflector projects its beam of light. The pattern is slightly conical, like the beam from a powerful searchlight, four feet in diameter at the originating point. It loses power as it travels, and when picked up at the next relay point the signals brought up to full power and re-transmitted to the next point. All this by air! There are no physical wire connections. The same microwave relay system COULD carry not only television, but telephone, telegraph, radio and very likely will one day replace the maze of wires and telephone poles now dotting the horizon.
Sound and picture travel together, although they are actually two separate signals. The sound, or audio signal, is an FM (frequency modulation) radio wave. That is why Channel 6 television sound can be picked up on FM radio. The picture, or video signal, is an AM (amplitude modulation) radio wave. The two are combined into a composite beam by a diplexer at the transmitter in Roanoke, and unscrambled when the beam reaches the transmitter on East River Mountain.
If all this sound complicated, it is! To get the first equipment up the mountains and operating, point to point, voice circuits were established through telephone switchboards at towns along the way, so Pat and his boys could talk back and forth while attempting to establish their line-of-sight paths.
The towers at each relay point, designed by Flanagan and still in use, are four 50-foot creosoted telephone poles, with a large platform built on top to support antennas and external equipment and also allow room for men to service them. Ground equipment at the relay points is housed in prefab steel houses, and is remotely controlled. When the network comes on in Roanoke, it automatically starts the transmitter, which by a signal starts the next.
The WHIS-TV microwave relay system is one of the very few privately owned systems in the country. Even today, RCA (who built the equipment for a mere $70,000) brings its research and development engineer-trainees to WHIS to study the system. Meanwhile, back at the Municipal Building excitement was mounting as Pat assured his staff that completion of the microwave system was nearing.
On September 26, 1955, the Herculean task was done. At 4:00 p. m. the "Pinky Lee Show" became Channel 6's first network program. 

I have to think that all of this Rube Goldberg-like rigamarole presupposed a curved earth, not a flat one.  
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: Pax Vobis on June 23, 2023, 10:24:38 PM

Quote
I imagine they truncate it so as not to waste signal over the ocean where there are no viewers, also, the signal is directionalized north-south, presumably for similar reasons, whereas most of the time, TV signals are omnidirectional
I think you answered your own question.  In theory, yes, signals would be unimpeded on a flat earth, moreso than a globe.  But in reality, $ignals are truncated, becau$e otherwi$e it'$ a wa$te.  And we know who own$ 98% of radio, tv, broadca$t network$...they're all about $$$.
Title: Re: SSPX Article Against Flat-Erthism
Post by: SimpleMan on June 23, 2023, 11:30:06 PM
I think you answered your own question.  In theory, yes, signals would be unimpeded on a flat earth, moreso than a globe.  But in reality, $ignals are truncated, becau$e otherwi$e it'$ a wa$te.  And we know who own$ 98% of radio, tv, broadca$t network$...they're all about $$$.

It's not a money issue (but see below).  Broadcasters have to share signals with other broadcasters on the same frequency in other cities, therefore they have to adhere to certain power and tower height regulations, to keep signals from colliding and interfering with one another (it doesn't take much for that to happen)  The FCC won't allow a TV tower over 2000' high from base to tip, and the WSVN tower is about half that height.  There is also a certain "flattening" and downtilt factor, so that the signal is dispersed horizontally, rather than radiating out of the transmitter in all directions, including upwards.  Think of holding a showerhead straight up in the air with your hand held an inch or so above it, and you'll get the idea.

I said "but see below".  Unless engineered otherwise, broadcast signals are omnidirectional, i.e., they go out equally all 360 degrees.  You'll notice on the map I provided that WSVN's signal is kind of oval-shaped, to hit up and down the coast along areas of highest population, nonetheless, a flattened signal goes out into the ocean.  There is no point sending an omnidirectional signal out into open water where no one lives, and the signal does not get out as far as the Bahamas (West Palm Beach TV stations can be picked up at the far western tip of Grand Bahama west of Freeport).

As a practical matter, Bahamians would get Miami stations via satellite, which doesn't operate under the same geographical handicaps as terrestrial broadcast TV.

Here's another example of a TV station with a more omnidirectional signal over flat terrain (WDAY Fargo ND):


(https://i.imgur.com/FIN4lRn.png)