Author Topic: Sponsoring Abortion (Read 1052 times)

Disputaciones · « **on:** June 25, 2019, 10:59:18 PM »

How are we not guilty of sponsoring abortion by buying all the products that directly/indirectly sponsor planned parenthood?

Microsoft, Apple, Google, Procter and Gamble, general electric, BP, bank of America, Chase, Ford, Walmart, Master Card, Amazon, ebay, and pretty much almost every other brand/product that we use, all directly or indirectly, sponsor planned parenthood.

The government too of course!

Can you avoid not sponsoring planned parenthood? Sure, but you would have to leave the country, never pay taxes, and never buy from any product that sponsors it.

Is that possible? Certainly. There are a bunch of other countries out there whose government doesn't sponsor planned parenthood or abortion, and you can use any other substitute brand/product that doesn't sponsor abortion, because of course not all do.

You could go live off the land and animals somewhere, like the Amish actually do.

This would be a life changer and incredibly hard, but it is possible, and the end result would be that you would be 100% free of sponsoring anything evil.

But are we all bound to do all this? There's the catch.

I don't see how we can possibly not be. The only objection I can think of is convenience, and that doesn't sound that good now does it.

Nadir · « **Reply #1 on:** June 26, 2019, 12:31:55 AM »

Quote from: Disputaciones on June 25, 2019, 10:59:18 PM

There are a bunch of other countries out there whose government doesn't sponsor planned parenthood or abortion, and you can use any other substitute brand/product that doesn't sponsor abortion, because of course not all do.

Have done your own homework on this?
If so, can you name them?
If not, you should make a point to research the question.

Disputaciones · « **Reply #2 on:** June 26, 2019, 05:43:26 AM »

Quote from: Nadir on June 26, 2019, 12:31:55 AM

Have done your own homework on this?
If so, can you name them?
If not, you should make a point to research the question.

Countries where abortion is 100% illegal (no exceptions):

Andorra
Angola
Congo-Brazzaville
Congo-Kinshasa
Dominican Republic
Egypt
El Salvador
Gabon
Guinea-Bissau
Haiti
Honduras
Iraq
Laos
Madagascar
Malta
Marshall Islands
Mauritania
Micronesia
Nicaragua
Palau
Philippines
San Marino
Sao Tome and Principe
Senegal
Suriname
Tonga

Countries that ban abortion unless an abortion would save the life of the mother:

Afghanistan
Antigua & Barbuda
Bangladesh
Bhutan
Brazil
Brunei Darussalam
Chile
Côte d’Ivoire
Dominica
Guatemala
Indonesia
Iran
Ireland
Kiribati
Lebanon
Libya
Malawi
Mali
Mexico
Myanmar
Nigeria
Oman
Panama
Papua New Guinea
Paraguay
Solomon Islands
Somalia
South Sudan
Sri Lanka
Sudan
Syria
Tanzania
Timor-Leste
Tuvalu
Uganda
United Arab Emirates
Venezuela
West Bank & Gaza
Yemen

Countries where is abortion illegal except in instances when it would save the life of a woman or preserve her physical health:

Argentina
Bahamas
Benin
Bolivia
Burkina Faso
Burundi
Cameroon
Central African Republic
Chad
Comoros
Costa Rica
Djibouti
Ecuador
Equatorial Guinea
Ethiopia
Grenada
Guinea
Jordan
Kenya
Kuwait
Lesotho
Liechtenstein
Maldives
Monaco
Morocco
Niger
Pakistan
Peru
Poland
Qatar
Rwanda
Saudi Arabia
South Korea
Togo
Vanuatu
Zimbabwe

Countries where abortion is illegal except when it is used to save the mother’s life or to preserve her physical or mental health:

Algeria
Botswana
Colombia
Eritrea
Gambia
Ghana
Israel
Jamaica
Liberia
Malaysia
Mauritius
Mozambique
Namibia
Nauru
New Zealand
Northern Ireland
Samoa
Seychelles
Sierra Leone
St. Kitts & Nevis
St. Lucia
Swaziland
Thailand
Trinidad & Tobago

Now whether or not the government still funds abortion in the countries where it is illegal with exceptions would be something to investigate, but at the very least, it is illegal as a rule, so I would think there's a good chance the government will not be funding it.

Stanley N · « **Reply #3 on:** June 26, 2019, 08:00:49 AM »

Quote from: Disputaciones on June 26, 2019, 05:43:26 AM

Countries where abortion is 100% illegal (no exceptions):
...

Here is a source from 2013 for UN members (plus a few non-member states):
https://www.un.org/en/development/desa/population/publications/pdf/policy/WorldAbortionPolicies2013/WorldAbortionPolicies2013_WallChart.pdf

The only countries given as having it illegal without exceptions are: South Sudan, Andorra, Holy See, Malta, Dominican Republic, Chile, El Salvador and Nicaragua. And the laws in South Sudan and Chile have since changed.

Why is your list so different?

Quote from: Disputaciones on June 25, 2019, 10:59:18 PM

But are we all bound to do all this? There's the catch.

It's material participation in a sin, yes, but a sin someone else commits with money we give them in an otherwise moral transaction is rather remote participation I don't see enough to make an obligation to avoid the transaction.

The flip side of that: I don't think it's right to avoid donating to the homeless on the excuse that they might use the money for drugs.

Stanley N · « **Reply #4 on:** June 26, 2019, 08:19:04 AM »

Disputaciones · « **Reply #5 on:** June 26, 2019, 09:00:40 AM »

Quote from: Stanley N on June 26, 2019, 08:00:49 AM

Here is a source from 2013 for UN members (plus a few non-member states):
https://www.un.org/en/development/desa/population/publications/pdf/policy/WorldAbortionPolicies2013/WorldAbortionPolicies2013_WallChart.pdf

The only countries given as having it illegal without exceptions are: South Sudan, Andorra, Holy See, Malta, Dominican Republic, Chile, El Salvador and Nicaragua. And the laws in South Sudan and Chile have since changed.

Why is your list so different?

I don't know, I got that list from here: http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/countries-where-abortion-is-illegal/

Quote

It's material participation in a sin, yes, but a sin someone else commits with money we give them in an otherwise moral transaction is rather remote participation I don't see enough to make an obligation to avoid the transaction.

Then why ever object against anything if you're not formally responsible?
At least with taxes you could say it's "forced," but using any product/brand isn't forced.

Quote

The flip side of that: I don't think it's right to avoid donating to the homeless on the excuse that they might use the money for drugs.

And I think it is.

songbird · « **Reply #6 on:** June 26, 2019, 11:24:42 AM »

Here in Phoenix we get these freeloaders. I met a former police officer and he knows them. He asks for their stories and just listens and smiles. Most have fancy cars and long stories of the "church" they are supporting and blah, blah, blah goes the story. It is best not to give straight cash. Jobs have been offered to them and they decline.

It is what it is.

Nadir · « **Reply #7 on:** June 26, 2019, 05:29:51 PM »

Disputationes, the lists you provided are unreliable. Apart from the fact that abortion is NEVER necessary to save a woman's life or health or sanity, even those listed for "illegal in all cases" are way off mark. For example Madagascar is listed as "illegal in all cases" but according to Marie Stopes:

Since 1992, Marie Stopes Madagascar has been working with national government and non-governmental partners to provide a full range of sɛҳuąƖ and reproductive health services including contraception, maternal health, post-abortion care, and screening for sɛҳuąƖly transmitted infections and HIV.

You need to do better research to find a place you could live without govt backed abortion that is habitable.

Disputaciones · « **Reply #8 on:** June 26, 2019, 08:07:28 PM »

Quote from: Nadir on June 26, 2019, 05:29:51 PM

Disputationes, the lists you provided are unreliable. Apart from the fact that abortion is NEVER necessary to save a woman's life or health or sanity, even those listed for "illegal in all cases" are way off mark. For example Madagascar is listed as "illegal in all cases" but according to Marie Stopes:

Since 1992, Marie Stopes Madagascar has been working with national government and non-governmental partners to provide a full range of sɛҳuąƖ and reproductive health services including contraception, maternal health, post-abortion care, and screening for sɛҳuąƖly transmitted infections and HIV.

You need to do better research to find a place you could live without govt backed abortion that is habitable.

Then it seems these are the only ones: Andorra, Holy See, Malta, Dominican Republic, El Salvador and Nicaragua.

What do you mean by habitable?

Stanley N · « **Reply #9 on:** June 26, 2019, 08:42:05 PM »

Quote from: Disputaciones on June 26, 2019, 09:00:40 AM

Then why ever object against anything if you're not formally responsible?

Even if you're not responsible, you still make a choice. I generally choose to give to the poor despite the risk they might misuse it. In many cases I offer to take them to a restaurant and talk to them.

But if you're pretty sure your money is going to be used for substantial evil, then don't give it to them. I would agree with that. That goes both for giving to the poor, or for giving your business to a business. That seems consistent.

What seems inconsistent is to have no problem using (and profiting by investments in) certain businesses that have a known history of bad action, while avoiding giving money to the poor who might misuse it. To me, that looks like a fake, comfortable but empty, bourgeois religion.

So support businesses owned by Catholics when possible. And try to help those in need. At least consider donating to a local soup kitchen or food pantry where (in my area) nearly all the money goes toward food and not "overhead" (salaries) like some big "charities". And giving of your time can matter a lot more than money.

Stanley N · « **Reply #10 on:** June 26, 2019, 09:08:36 PM »

Quote from: Disputaciones on June 26, 2019, 08:07:28 PM

Then it seems these are the only ones: Andorra, Holy See, Malta, Dominican Republic, El Salvador and Nicaragua.
What do you mean by habitable?

I'm guessing because Nicaragua and El Salvador are not viewed as pleasant places to live, and the Dominican Republic is currently in the press for curious illnesses and deaths among tourists. (Many of these sound to me like people in DR are topping off alcohol with methyl alcohol, which would be nearly as callous as abortion.)
Andorra and Malta, however, are certainly livable, predominantly Catholic European countries.

Nadir · « **Reply #11 on:** June 26, 2019, 09:22:39 PM »

Quote from: Disputaciones on June 26, 2019, 08:07:28 PM

Then it seems these are the only ones: Andorra, Holy See, Malta, Dominican Republic, El Salvador and Nicaragua.

What do you mean by habitable?

Ah! That's a more realistic list!
I had in mind what country you could go to and live there, where abortion was not allowed, but even in some on your list there are exceptions for health of the mother. And of course these countries are under attack by the usual suspects.

Disputaciones · « **Reply #12 on:** June 26, 2019, 10:03:54 PM »

Quote from: Stanley N on June 26, 2019, 08:42:05 PM

What seems inconsistent is to have no problem using (and profiting by investments in) certain businesses that have a known history of bad action,

It's precisely because I do have a problem with using some of these products that I made this thread in the first place.
I have even considered what I would have to do to be 100% off the grid and using only products that 100% do not sponsor any evil things.

Have you ever thought of doing that?

Quote

while avoiding giving money to the poor who might misuse it. To me, that looks like a fake, comfortable but empty, bourgeois religion.

You specifically said: "donating to the homeless on the excuse that they might use the money for drugs."

Obviously you're referring to the "homeless" people in the streets because those are the only ones you could give money to who could use it for drugs.

Did you even watch the video I put? They're nothing but freeloaders who don't want to work. We know this for a fact because there is no shortage of places they could go to where they could get help and even work.

There's even another docuмentary of a man who went undercover in the streets of London for 60 days to live with the "homeless." He found out the exact same thing Stossel did.

So yes, you bet you're directly sponsoring their drugs, or at the very least the continuation of their freeloader lifestyle, when you give them money. I don't see how you don't see that.

I have nothing against helping those who truly need help and the truly poor.

Nadir · « **Reply #13 on:** June 26, 2019, 10:37:13 PM »

Quote from: Disputaciones on June 26, 2019, 10:03:54 PM

I have even considered what I would have to do to be 100% off the grid and using only products that 100% do not sponsor any evil things.

Where there's a will there's a way!
.
My husband and I and our three children lived that way for 14 years. It would probably need to be in a remote area. And you'd have to get used to a few inconviences and do a few more things for yourself than most people do. We had own own water source and collection. Our children thrived in that environment and learnt to be very resourceful.

Disputaciones · « **Reply #14 on:** June 26, 2019, 10:50:23 PM »

Quote from: Nadir on June 26, 2019, 10:37:13 PM

Where there's a will there's a way!
.
My husband and I and our three children lived that way for 14 years. It would probably need to be in a remote area. And you'd have to get used to a few inconviences and do a few more things for yourself than most people do. We had own own water source and collection. Our children thrived in that environment and learnt to be very resourceful.

Wow, where did you do that? And why did you stop?

Author Topic: Sponsoring Abortion (Read 1052 times)

Disputaciones

Sponsoring Abortion

Nadir

Re: Sponsoring Abortion

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Stanley N

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Stanley N

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songbird

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Nadir

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Stanley N

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Stanley N

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Nadir

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Nadir

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