Author Topic: Social Relationships before Vatican 2 (Read 2901 times)

Pelele · « **on:** December 11, 2013, 08:07:35 PM »

I read Bergoglio saying that before Vatican 2, if someone was an atheist, Catholic people would not go to his/her house and would basically have no social interaction with such a person.

I also heard Bishop Sanborn saying how before Vatican 2 there were Catholic associations for everything: Catholic associations for lawyers, Catholic schools obviously, Catholic sports leagues etc. and that Catholics would be basically isolated from non-Catholics and i suppose would not really "interact" with non-Catholics. He said you wouldn't be able to play sports with non-Catholics.

I have also read some articles by Fr. Sretenovic on what the Catholic position and action was towards adulterers and people living in illegitimate unions such as living without being married etc.

So before Vatican 2, and well throughout the history of Catholicism and even in the Old Testament i suppose, Catholics would not "socialize" with non-Catholics nor with people living in public sin?

This is a topic i am very interested in: how to actually deal with people on a daily basis and what to do with bad family members because i was raised in the Novus Ordo and all that was pre-Vatican 2 is gone here of course.

Now this has been thrown out the window and what reigns is a complete indifferentism and paganism; now it doesn't matter if someone is in public sin or if someone dresses immodestly or if someone is leading a bad life and if someone is vulgar and says bad words all the time etc. etc.; now everyone mixes with everyone and no one says anything about anything to anyone.

The only persons Novus Ordo people would shun would be murderers, rapists, pedophiles, criminals and "really evil" people like that.

My family members don't seem to understand how you would live your life if you shun all non-Catholics and people living in public sin aqnd don't socialize with people like that; they seem to think that it is impossible to make a living without socializing with non-Catholics.

So before Vatican 2, if a family was Catholic, and a family member became an adulterer or entered in an illegitimate union, the whole family would shun such a person and they wouldn't be like nothing like they are now?

I had a children's devotionary book from 1962 which was still Catholic and there it clearly said how you must avoid bad company and bad "friendships" and people that don't follow the commandments and bad Catholics.

That little devotioanry for children condemns this whole new religion.

Thurifer7 · « **Reply #1 on:** December 11, 2013, 08:15:36 PM »

How are you going to tell your family that they're sinning if you don't talk to them?

Isn't that the point of the Catholic Church - to save souls? We laymen are a part of that if we can convince someone to repent and that their sins will lead them to eternal damnation. And God will surely bless us if we do just that.

I mean the grace of repentance is always being given from God. No doubt, the more sin there is the more grace of repentance, which is not limited to the sacraments.

But sometimes sinners who are hard of heart need holy people to help them get out of their sinful lifestyles. They need people to talk to them, to encourage them towards the truth, to use Reason (which as we know from Vatican I is not against the Faith) to show the truth of God's fatherly love.

Pelele · « **Reply #2 on:** December 11, 2013, 08:34:36 PM »

Quote from: Thurifer7

How are you going to tell your family that they're sinning if you don't talk to them?

Isn't that the point of the Catholic Church - to save souls? We laymen are a part of that if we can convince someone to repent and that their sins will lead them to eternal damnation. And God will surely bless us if we do just that.

I mean the grace of repentance is always being given from God. No doubt, the more sin there is the more grace of repentance, which is not limited to the sacraments.

But sometimes sinners who are hard of heart need holy people to help them get out of their sinful lifestyles. They need people to talk to them, to encourage them towards the truth, to use Reason (which as we know from Vatican I is not against the Faith) to show the truth of God's fatherly love.

Yes, i get that, i was referring to people you have already said something to. I of course believe that you have to evangelize and preach to people, im not saying you have to shun them all from the start. I just meant after you said something and then rejected it, what do you do from then.

The thing is that i think that before Vatican 2 everyone knew what was bad and what was sinful, but now it is all upside-down and evil is good and good is evil.

Before Vatican 2 adultery was considered bad by everybody, but now it isn't; before immodesty was sinful, and now it isn't; effeminacy, sodomy, heresy, fornication, all these things were thought of as really bad and the ones that did them sure knew they were doing bad and being "rebels".

Now what you get is "DON'T JUDGE! NOBODY CAN JUDGE!" and on top of that, these things aren't hell-damning sins anymore.

Immodesty is a sin against the 6th commandment but now it is considered "normal" and women wearing pants was an abomination condemned by Deutoronomy 22:5 but now it is the norm as well.

So now we are in a totally different ball game.

You think i haven't told them they are in sin? Of course i have. But they of course think im crazy.

The thing is, i have a big family, and they are 90 something % Novus Ordo and some are Protestants. All the girls and women dress immodestly and wear pants. I have 2 siblings and some cousins living in fornication and living a hedonistic lifestyle. There are many living in adultery. There is one sodomite and one effeminate and some other things. They all accept each other and they all live in peace with each other and they all think things are just grand.

So my question is, suppose my parents or at least one of them were to convert, what in the world would they do? Would they have to tell them all that they are all on the road to Hell and in a very bad situation? Would they have to start avoiding them when they can and not socializing with them like nothing's going on?

What happens to sins of omission? To appearing to approve of sin?

You know that everytime they all gather together and everytime they socialize, they all take the name of God in vain, they are all in heresy and apostasy and say heretical and apostate things, they have bad and impure conversations and say bad things and all that kind of stuff. Nobody cares about modesty. You know there is no way that a traditional Catholic can have a regular or good conversation with people like them. Everytime they talk to me or ask me things i get anxious because 99% of the time they say something bad or ask me bad things. Just with 1 person i get a little on edge. And now, imagine being in a room full of these people?

Frances · « **Reply #3 on:** December 11, 2013, 08:38:14 PM »

When society was Catholic, contact with heretics, public sinners, etc. could be almost entirely avoided. Before then, as now, most of us must live and work among non-Catholics. If I were to have no contact with any but Traditional Catholics, I'd be among fellow humans approximately two hours every six weeks! The rest of the time, I'd have to live as a hermitess.
Realistically, I could not exist. If a person is known to me to actively and openly promote sin or hatred of Our Lord, His Mother, the Church, then I avoid him/her in as much as possible, especially if there is a chance he/she will be a bad influence. Most of the non-Catholics I'm around do not fall into this category. Catholics are to influence others to become Catholic, not to flee all contact with the world. We're not Puritans! Christ Wills that ALL should become Catholic!

Sigismund · « **Reply #4 on:** December 11, 2013, 08:53:42 PM »

Fortunately I have no close family members living in a state of sin.

I have non-Catholic friends and acquaintances, but there is a certain reservation I feel with them.

When I was growing up before the council, my family had pleasant social relationships with non-Catholic neighbors and associates.

Pelele · « **Reply #5 on:** December 11, 2013, 09:00:29 PM »

Quote from: Frances

When society was Catholic, contact with heretics, public sinners, etc. could be almost entirely avoided. Before then, as now, most of us must live and work among non-Catholics. If I were to have no contact with any but Traditional Catholics, I'd be among fellow humans approximately two hours every six weeks! The rest of the time, I'd have to live as a hermitess.
Realistically, I could not exist. If a person is known to me to actively and openly promote sin or hatred of Our Lord, His Mother, the Church, then I avoid him/her in as much as possible, especially if there is a chance he/she will be a bad influence. Most of the non-Catholics I'm around do not fall into this category. Catholics are to influence others to become Catholic, not to flee all contact with the world. We're not Puritans! Christ Wills that ALL should become Catholic!

I don't mean not saying one word to them ever. I mean not socializing with them, not having conversations like you would with a faithful and pious Catholic. I mean not going to family reunions and birthdays where you will be the only Catholic person present and all the rest will be non-Catholics and a bad influence.

I mean only speaking to them when necessary, and speaking about religious things only if they were to ask you, if they wanted to know more for example.

We have nothing in common with people like them. They don't give a zilch about the truth or about God. What will you talk about? The weather? Better to be praying or reading than sinning by omission by being with them.

Mabel · « **Reply #6 on:** December 11, 2013, 09:38:44 PM »

Are your non-Catholic family members really a bad influence on you? Are they causing you to sin by getting drunk or fornicating?

How important are the functions? How often? Will the host be seriously offended if you don't show? It is acceptable to set limits with the amount of time dedicated to these functions.

Catholics don't shun. We live and carry ourselves in a manner that admonishes the world without words. When it is time for words or confrontation, it is done in a calculated, prayerful manner, at the right place and time. We might avoid certain places of scandal, but each situation must be weighed individually. Going to the home of a public sinner with hopes of helping them to the confessional might be an exception to this broad guideline.

Part of this is knowing your place. You likely have no authority over these people and no good chance of changing their hearts on your own. Your time would be more fruitfully spent learning manners that draw them to want to be Catholic, and living in such a way that you are correcting your faults.

You should learn to feel moved with pity for poor sinners but consider your own failings, which might even offend God more. When I'm tempted to dwell on the sins of others, I think how I have claimed to know and love Our Lord, yet, as a friend I still offend and sin against Him. How much worse is an offense from a friend than an enemy?

Pelele · « **Reply #7 on:** December 11, 2013, 09:54:13 PM »

Quote from: Mabel

Are your non-Catholic family members really a bad influence on you? Are they causing you to sin by getting drunk or fornicating?

They are not, the only thing they could make me sin by is omission, silence. Saying God's name in vain and bad things and me remaining quiet and appearing to approve. That is the most they could make me sin in.

Quote from: Mabel

How important are the functions? How often? Will the host be seriously offended if you don't show? It is acceptable to set limits with the amount of time dedicated to these functions.

I myself don't go to anything at all because i don't associate with anyone from my family except with the ones in my house. I am not expected anywhere, it is not me who is the problem, i am thinking more about them. I am thinking what would they do if they were to convert.

Quote from: Mabel

Catholics don't shun.

Did you read my first post? What Bishop Sanborn said about life before Vatican 2 looked pretty much like shunning the world to me.

Quote from: Mabel

Part of this is knowing your place. You likely have no authority over these people and no good chance of changing their hearts on your own.

Yes, i don't have any authority over them.

Quote from: Mabel

Your time would be more fruitfully spent learning manners that draw them to want to be Catholic, and living in such a way that you are correcting your faults.

You should learn to feel moved with pity for poor sinners but consider your own failings, which might even offend God more. When I'm tempted to dwell on the sins of others, I think how I have claimed to know and love Our Lord, yet, as a friend I still offend and sin against Him. How much worse is an offense from a friend than an enemy?

It is not dwelling on their sins for the sole sake of it, you don't understand. I know my place and my situation.

One of my aunts is very involved in the Novus Ordo. She tells all the people here about all the "masses" they will have and she is always with that stuff and announcing whatever activity they will have etc. She is dragging them all to Hell because like i said she is the one in charge of all the things having to do with the Novus Ordo in my area and she gives catechism to all the people in the area. There is a conventicle nearby where they all go. Well, some of them.

Do you realize i cannot say anything to my grandparents because they are surrounded by these people? My grandparents don't have much time on earth i believe and if i tell them anything, their sons and daughters will attack me and they will brainwash them. They will not want me to tell them the truth because all of them are evil and heretics.

I am alone here, there was one person i converted who is 21 and he lasted like 2 months and now he dived back head-long into the novus ordo. He was a staunch sede and he told me so many things he knew were going on but now he apostatized for some unexplicable reason.

If anyone is to have a shot here, the heads of the family have to convert of course, starting with my aunt because she is the most dangerous.

Cantarella · « **Reply #8 on:** December 11, 2013, 10:44:32 PM »

Quote from: Mabel

Catholics don't shun. We live and carry ourselves in a manner that admonishes the world without words. When it is time for words or confrontation, it is done in a calculated, prayerful manner, at the right place and time. We might avoid certain places of scandal, but each situation must be weighed individually.

I loved that!

:applause:

Admonishing the world without words, but example only and prayer also. Keep it civil, but keep it Catholic first and foremost.

SoldierOfChrist · « **Reply #9 on:** December 12, 2013, 02:34:39 AM »

Quote from: Cantarella

Quote from: Mabel

Catholics don't shun. We live and carry ourselves in a manner that admonishes the world without words. When it is time for words or confrontation, it is done in a calculated, prayerful manner, at the right place and time. We might avoid certain places of scandal, but each situation must be weighed individually.

I loved that!

:applause:

Admonishing the world without words, but example only and prayer also. Keep it civil, but keep it Catholic first and foremost.

Yes, I agree. I am in a similar situation to that of the OP. I find that I don't even have to start conversations with my family members anymore. The ones who need a talking to, eventually confront me about whatever it is that they can see we disagree about, and the door is thereby opened to evangelization. There are friends whom I no longer associate with. They aren't open to the Truth, but they definitely know that they could count on me to tell it to them if they asked, but they don't, so we're pretty much done. Family members, on the other hand, just keep confronting me, and I actually have seen some fruitfulness in those confrontations.

In the end, just follow Our Lord's guidance and you will see clearly the path in front of you. Don't think so much about it. Prayer, study, and penance, and be a living breathing admonishment to your family.

Pelele · « **Reply #10 on:** December 12, 2013, 04:28:10 AM »

Quote from: SoldierOfChrist

Yes, I agree. I am in a similar situation to that of the OP. I find that I don't even have to start conversations with my family members anymore. The ones who need a talking to, eventually confront me about whatever it is that they can see we disagree about, and the door is thereby opened to evangelization. There are friends whom I no longer associate with. They aren't open to the Truth, but they definitely know that they could count on me to tell it to them if they asked, but they don't, so we're pretty much done. Family members, on the other hand, just keep confronting me, and I actually have seen some fruitfulness in those confrontations.

In the end, just follow Our Lord's guidance and you will see clearly the path in front of you. Don't think so much about it. Prayer, study, and penance, and be a living breathing admonishment to your family.

I wish they would ask me things, i would tell them anything, but they don't. They know i will tell them the truth and they just dont want to hear it. They aren't interested in the truth. They just make things worse by occasionally saying "Today is x saint's day!" when they don't give 2 flips about anything and don't even believe in the Saints, or the Bible, or the Church, or anything really. They're all just liberals.

They just want to deceive themselves and think that just by giving lip service to God they're gonna be ok.

Crying in front of them and begging them to think would probably be the best option at this point. Maybe that would touch them.

soulguard · « **Reply #11 on:** December 12, 2013, 04:47:32 AM »

Quote from: Pelele

You know that everytime they all gather together and everytime they socialize, they all take the name of God in vain, they are all in heresy and apostasy and say heretical and apostate things, they have bad and impure conversations and say bad things and all that kind of stuff. Nobody cares about modesty. You know there is no way that a traditional Catholic can have a regular or good conversation with people like them. Everytime they talk to me or ask me things i get anxious because 99% of the time they say something bad or ask me bad things. Just with 1 person i get a little on edge. And now, imagine being in a room full of these people?

Pelele do you live with these people? Maybe its time to get your own place?

They know you're a Catholic but they are not Catholic like you are because they hate Catholicism and what it stands for, and they hate you too but aren't saying it. You are as an outcast when they ought to be asking you to teach them how to get to heaven.

Pelele you bring up a good question:
Do we sin if we don't warn people that they are going to hell?

ggreg · « **Reply #12 on:** December 12, 2013, 05:12:13 AM »

If my children's friends parents divorce and run off with someone else then I stop my kids having much to do with them. We make excuses and don't go to parties or have get togethers of any sort. They see them at school and that is it.

If the father runs off and the mother is left raising the children and does not immediately move another man in then I let those friendships continue as normal. If she then finds another man after 3 or 4 years, having been left, then I would usually just ignore that. But I do point out to children over 11 that it is not her husband. There are so many people now with less than ideal lives that if you are too harsh your kids would not have any friends in 90 miles of them.

In addition some people are bitter, jealous, destructive and all around trouble. One woman from a married couple we know is a nasty drunk who gets very jealous and bitter about other kids winning things at school when her kids don't. Her husband coaches the soccer team but we sort of cut them off from social gatherings and we don't invite their children to parties or go when invited, (though they soon get the message and stop inviting you. There are certain people in life who seem to invite trouble, be it through booze or drugs or jealousy or crime and you are better off spotting this early and moving away from them. The less they know about you and the less proximate you are to them in daily life the better off you will be.

Our best friends are a couple of Christian married couples. My boy's good friend at school is some sort of Anabaptist and the mother of six arrives at the school gates dressed like an Amish. We will invite them over at some stage. Not ideal, but the best you can do under the circuмstances.

We are also in the local diaspora of Russians and other Eastern Europeans who are less affected with problems like divorce and adultery.

Tiffany · « **Reply #13 on:** December 12, 2013, 05:51:09 AM »

One thing to consider is the example it's showing to your children. Years ago I agreed to meet my father at a theme park for 2 days. He knew all along he intended on bringing the woman he lived with. After everything was finalized he told me he was bringing someone. Until that time he had me believe he was divorced and not involved with anyone. He knew right well I would not have agreed to it but at that point I felt obligated to go. I still regret going, I did wrong allowing my son to see them sharing a hotel room. Posting this in case others can learn from my mistake.

A sense of decency is good, it's worldly influence that people have to defend not wanting to accommodate immorality.

TKGS · « **Reply #14 on:** December 12, 2013, 06:20:17 AM »

I have had conversations about this kind of topic with older people who were, themselves, adults prior to Vatican II and who actually lived prior to the changes. All of them who I knew have passed now.

Frankly, there were varying degrees of Catholic society within the United States.

There were enclaves of Catholicism where virtually all one's social life would be amongst and around Catholics. In many cities there were Catholic neighborhoods where non-Catholics would truly feel to be misfits.

On the other hand, there were also many more areas in the United States where Catholics were scattered and unable to live mostly with and around other Catholics.

In that time, however, public sinners, which included the divorced and remarried, were considered, even by the Protestants, to be of lower social standing in the communities though it was rare (my friends really didn't know of a case) when a Catholic family was divorced and remarried.

So, returning to the original topic, I believe that Catholic social life in the pre-Vatican II days was really a mixed bag depending upon where one lived, at least, it was so in the United States.