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Author Topic: Slow Boiling the Mass Fashions of Women  (Read 11913 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Slow Boiling the Mass Fashions of Women
« Reply #90 on: March 15, 2018, 12:12:55 PM »
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  • I'm not the dress police; God is.  Catholicism has been on a downward decline since the 13th century (which includes morality and immodesty).  For one to think that any black-n-white photo from the 1800s or early 1900s is automatically modest doesn't know history.  As an example, in the US in the "roaring 20s", immodesty and immorality was rampant.  I think the Great Depression was a punishment for that. 


    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: Slow Boiling the Mass Fashions of Women
    « Reply #91 on: March 15, 2018, 04:34:57 PM »
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  • God doesn't police anything.  He lets us exercise our free will and then He judges.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]



    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Slow Boiling the Mass Fashions of Women
    « Reply #92 on: March 15, 2018, 07:23:09 PM »
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  • For one to think that any black-n-white photo from the 1800s or early 1900s is automatically modest doesn't know history.  As an example, in the US in the "roaring 20s", immodesty and immorality was rampant.  I think the Great Depression was a punishment for that.
    Just watch any "old movie" with a critical eye. Look at all the subtle problems. Sure, they had certain standards and lines they wouldn't cross back then, which is kind of refreshing here in 2018. But look at how the women dressed, wore their hair, their ambitions, family life, etc. the problems were already legion.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Slow Boiling the Mass Fashions of Women
    « Reply #93 on: March 15, 2018, 10:01:08 PM »
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  • Whoever downvoted that, obviously thought “the 50s” was a catholic utopia.  Haha.  “Oh, the ‘Bells of St Marys’ is my favorite movie!  Those nuns were so holy.  They don’t make em like that anymore.”  I mean, it wasn’t bad but it wasn’t really good either.  Just catholic, sentimentalist humanism from Hollywood joos.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Slow Boiling the Mass Fashions of Women
    « Reply #94 on: March 16, 2018, 10:34:37 AM »
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  • If one Google Searches the description "Prostitute Shoes", they will find the shoes being worn now by the teen girls (14 year old) and some women up to 45 are wearing in my SSPX chapel. Those shoes rarely are the only provocative clothing those women wear, they are part of an ensemble. The ensemble will include a tight dress and lots of makeup.

    There are people who are new to tradition and they may learn and change their ways or they may remain where they are, or get even worse, there is no way to know which direction they are going whether up or down, because they are new. I am not talking about those new people.

    I am talking about SSPXers that I have seen for years, even knowing their parents for years.

    I am talking about women who are mothers in their 20', 30's and 40's who are now dressing that way and are allowing their daughters to dress that way

    Those mothers were on top when they were under their parents, but for years now they are heading down big time and their children wanting to wear those fashions are the visible bad fruit of their down hill slide. I do not hold much hope for their children.

    The problem at my SSPX chapel is not that there are many bad examples for my daughters, it is way past that. The problem is that there are no good examples left, just one family. There was one other family but they moved.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Slow Boiling the Mass Fashions of Women
    « Reply #95 on: March 16, 2018, 11:31:04 AM »
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  • I posted this on the MALE modesty thread, but think it's relevant here too --

    Well, there's more to covering up than not to be a temptation.  Modesty is more than just that.  So, for instance, you might have a man or woman who is seriously overweight or otherwise extremely unattractive.  If they were to expose themselves, they would not only NOT be a temptation, but it might actually have the OPPOSITE effect, to turn people off to allures of the flesh.  So are unsightly women exempt from the rules of modesty?  Of course not.  Just because they do not cause temptation in men, they can run around half naked?  Similarly for a man.  Just because he might not pose a temptation to any woman, then it's OK for him to run around shirtless?  It bothers me when I see men walking around in public without their shirts on ... and not because I'm the least bit "tempted" by them.  Why then?  Because for anyone, whether a temptation or not, to run around partially undressed creates and ATMOSPHERE and a CULTURE of immodesty in general.  Even my younger children, when they see a man walking around in public without his shirt on, find it shocking and ask, "Why is he naked?"

    There's something there about how we comport ourselves as temples of the Holy Spirit ... as St. Paul taught, with dignity and decorum.  Similarly with men.  So, even IF I know that I will not cause temptation to anyone, I would be embarrassed to walk around without a shirt on [and not because I'm unsightly or anything, since I work out and have a good physique].  Even among [straight] men, I would be very reluctant to take my shirt off.  When I was a kid, even before the notion of being attracted to women presented itself to my mind, I was embarrassed to be "skins" when we played shirts-and-skins.  When I was at High School and we had to shower with other boys in an open shower at the gym, that embarrassed me.  When I was a very young boy, maybe 4 or 5, for some reason my Mom took a picture of me when I was taking a bath, and I immediately placed my hands over my private parts.  So, even apart from the problem of causing someone else a temptation, there's a natural instinct we have towards modesty.

    When we cover up, we are presenting ourselves as human beings, as people with souls created in the image and likeness of God, with higher faculties, intellect and will.  When we run around half naked, we are presenting ourselves (and relating to other people) as mere bodies and flesh.  But we are temples of the Holy Spirit, and being properly attired helps to present itself that way to others.  And the same thing goes for dressing like slobs.  Most people run around in public dressed like slobs even when they're not being immodest.  People used to dress with much more dignity and decorum in earlier societies that were more civilized.  Then women might wear tons of makeup and lots of Jєωelry.  Even if done in such a way as not to actually cause a temptation, they still present themselves as extremely focused on themselves as mere flesh, as animals, rather than as souls created in the image and likeness of God.  Or when certain cultures of men wear tons of "bling".

    More and more these days, you'll see men running around in public without their shirts on.  And the other question, then, is WHY they are doing it.  At the gym, there are some guys who wear next to nothing on their upper bodies, and are well built ... and I often notice them in front of the mirror flexing and checking themselves out.  Many of these run around like that because they're trying to get attention from women.  [Croix, is that you?]  Even if the women aren't tempted per se, they're hoping to get a look, to have some woman "check" them out.  So a lot of the motivation behind guys taking their shirts off is impure in the sense of their wanting to be noticed for their physique ... so an impure vanity.  Not to mention that vanity in a man is even uglier than in a woman, because there's something more natural (albeit in a Fallen Nature type of way) for a woman to want to be attractive than for a man.  Frankly, these guys strike me as borderline gαy ... so obsessed are they with vanity.  So, because men don't pose as strong a temptation to women as the other way around, it's OK for a man strutting his half-naked stuff around trying to get women to look at him and check him out?  Even if he doesn't actually provoke a sin right there on the spot, he's getting the INTEREST of women, who might become more and more interested in the physical attractiveness of men.  So even while not directly sin, it may be creating habits and inclinations and patterns of thinking that might ULTIMATELY lead to sin.  Not to mention the bad example they are setting, and even potentially resentment from women.  From time to time one reads of women who expose themselves in public in order to protest the double standard.  Hey, if men can walk around without their shirts, why can't we?  That's sexist, they claim.

    Would I want my teenage daughter mixing with a group of boys without their shirts on?  Certainly not.  Even if it doesn't cause her to commit an immediate sin, it can still cause an at-least-vague sense of attraction and physical interest in the opposite sex ... that probably would not lead anywhere good in the end.

    As for art, very few men are tempted by PAINTINGS of nude women, far fewer, at any rate, than would be tempted by the sight of an actual nude woman.  Similarly, if a woman were to see a very well built man without a shirt, that would undoubtedly be more of a temptation than a painting.

    So, in short, to view modesty merely with regard to its potential to cause an immediate sinful reaction is WAY too narrow a perspective on the subject.  St. Paul doesn't write about it that way at all.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Slow Boiling the Mass Fashions of Women
    « Reply #96 on: March 16, 2018, 01:47:16 PM »
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  • I posted this on the MALE modesty thread, but think it's relevant here too --

    Well, there's more to covering up than not to be a temptation.  
    That is not relevant to this thread at all, since this thread is about the "Slow Boiling the Mass Fashions of Women"

    There's a lot there that could be responded to, but it would derail this entire thread. Why don't you start a thread about the "Slow Boiling the Mass Fashions of Men" 
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Fanny

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    Re: Slow Boiling the Mass Fashions of Women
    « Reply #97 on: March 16, 2018, 01:51:11 PM »
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  • aSo, for instance, you might have a man or woman who is seriously overweight or otherwise extremely unattractive.  If they were to expose themselves, they would not only NOT be a temptation, but it might actually have the OPPOSITE effect, to turn people off to allures of the flesh.  
    Some men are attracted to fat women.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Slow Boiling the Mass Fashions of Women
    « Reply #98 on: March 16, 2018, 02:49:05 PM »
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  • Some men are attracted to fat women.

    You can find SOME men who are attracted to anything ... and tempted to sin by it.

    And that's the thing, SOME of this is a bit subjective, which is why it's hard to strictly enforce.

    So, for instance, a priest tries to outlaw high heels.  What happens?  Some women will "disagree" that they're intrinsically immodest, and ask for something authoritative from the Church about it to back them up.  None of the standards of modesty from the Church have mentioned anything about footwear.

    In fact, there are SOME men who might be turned on by an open-toed shoe.  Are they to be banned too?

    So you have to be reasonable, and can't expect to have women wear large baggy sacks everywhere just because one or two guys might have some unusual inclinations to something.  You have to base it upon what might gravely affect a normal average man.  Some guy might be turned on by a woman's elbow.  So now we impose sleeve lengths past the elbow.  Oh, wait, some guy is turned on the the sight of a woman's wrist.  Only long sleeves now that go down over the wrist.  Where does it stop?

    And the entire problem is that there is in fact a certain amount of subjectivity around what's modest and what isn't.

    So what's a woman who happens to have larger breasts do, wear some enormous mumu so that not a single curve of her breast is visible?

    So unless a woman is dressed in such a way that one couldn't even tell that she HAD breasts, it's immodest?

    So let a priest try to come down on woman for woman for wearing heels?  Let's envision the reaction.  Woman:  "What, are you some kind of pervert who's turned on by a woman's feet?"  Or a priest talks about a top that might be a little too tight around the breasts.  "Why are you looking at my breasts?"  So it's a very delicate thing for a priest to point out particular things like that.  It used to be the unspoken duty of the older ladies in the parish to monitor this kind of thing and point out immodesty to particular women.  Yes, the priest can read a list of modesty standards, but many times the standards can be open to a little interpretation.  "What?  It doesn't say anything in there about shoes.  So I can't wear heels?  What about a half-inch heel?  Is that immodest too?"  So now we have to pull out rulers and measure the height of each woman's heel?

    Some guys would label anything that's even slightly form-fitting as immodest, and the things they would consider acceptable from the standpoint of modesty, many/most women would find ugly.  And women naturally want to be pretty.

    And then if you came down hard on this stuff, a lot of the women would rebel, many perhaps developing a resentment towards Traditional Catholicism.  And the girls who are forced to dress this way might grow up and part ways with Traditional Catholicism ... or even the Catholic faith in general.  So, do you fight that battle on matters which might be considered gray areas when it comes to modesty?

    And the discussion has been about what tempts people to sin.  Well, even though it could be a bit of a distraction while trying to pray, most of the borderline stuff won't actually cause a guy to SIN in the strict sense of the term.  Some of the real hard-line positions come from guys who are scrupulous and think that every time they notice that someone is attractive they have committed a mortal sin and must race to Confession.

    So it's similar, in that way, to what we've said about women.  There's a distinction between what could DIRECTLY cause someone to sin and something which can elicit feelings of attraction (that can then potentially be acted upon).  So, for instance, the sight of bare breasts might immediately cause a sinful thought to which the will could consent in a moment of weakness.  Or bare thighs.  Or a bare midriff.  Or a woman in a bikini.  Essentially the same areas that Pius XI mentioned should be covered up.  Maybe if something is SKIN-tight and leaves nothing to the imagination, or skin-colored so that the at first sight it LOOKS as if the woman might be nude.  In other words, these things are the things banned by Pius XI when he enunciated the modesty standards.  

    But what if a woman just happens to have a very beautiful face?  Must she now wear a ski mask to church?  I know that St. Rose disfigured herself to prevent this from happening, but that's a heroic act not required by the Church or even by God.  If a woman has a beautiful face, or a nice figure, or wears a dress where that figure can be seen to some extent, the path to sin is several steps removed.  MOST men don't instantly commit mortal sin when they see a woman with a beautiful face or if they see SOME female body curvature ... or feet in high heels.  Usually there are several steps of consent leading to sin, where the mind has to go BEYOND what the eyes actually see in order to sin, and take several steps of consent to get there.  [And that's the same thing we've said of women].  But the sight of certain things can have an immediate direct effect of sinful thought in a man ... against which the will immediately has to struggle mightily so it doesn't consent.  Not the case for women in high heels ... not for the average man.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Slow Boiling the Mass Fashions of Women
    « Reply #99 on: March 16, 2018, 03:02:49 PM »
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  • Some men are attracted to fat women.
    If we look at nude art, the ideal beautiful woman was different than today, as all the women in nude art history were fat women by our standards today. If men were attracted to big women like that for like 4000 years, then there are still a large percentage of men today that have not been brainwashed to the "new" perfection.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Slow Boiling the Mass Fashions of Women
    « Reply #100 on: March 16, 2018, 03:08:42 PM »
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  • If we look at art, the idea of a beautiful woman was different than today. All the women in nude art history were fat women by our standards today. If men were attracted to big women like that for like 4000 years, then there are still a large percentage of men today that have not been brainwashed to the "new" perfection.

    Well, what I had in mind was the EXTREMELY obese person where no evidence of figure (female or otherwise) can be detected ... not the slightly plump women you'd see in art.  But the point was that even if almost NO ONE would find you attractive, you should still dress modestly.


    Offline Fanny

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    Re: Slow Boiling the Mass Fashions of Women
    « Reply #101 on: March 16, 2018, 03:12:08 PM »
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  • You can find SOME men who are attracted to anything ... and tempted to sin by it.
    ...
    Bottom line:
    What would Our Blessed Mother wear or approve of?

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Slow Boiling the Mass Fashions of Women
    « Reply #102 on: March 16, 2018, 03:12:46 PM »
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  • Older women dressed in tight sweaters  are not going to tempt young men, that's for sure, on the other hand, there's some older men who would be tempted by a light socket, however, like you say temptation is not the problem with the older women wearing that fashion. The problem with women in their 50's and older wearing those fashions is that they are a bad example to the younger girls. What are they going to tell a pretty young girl like Marilyn Monroe when she wears the same thing?  
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Slow Boiling the Mass Fashions of Women
    « Reply #103 on: March 16, 2018, 03:18:13 PM »
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  • Well, what I had in mind was the EXTREMELY obese person where no evidence of figure (female or otherwise) can be detected ... not the slightly plump women you'd see in art.  But the point was that even if almost NO ONE would find you attractive, you should still dress modestly.
    Ok, I see.

    An obese woman like you describe "EXTREMELY obese person where no evidence of figure" would be a sin against charity.  

    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Slow Boiling the Mass Fashions of Women
    « Reply #104 on: March 16, 2018, 03:30:42 PM »
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  • It's also important to remember that there are DEGREES of immodesty ... and therefore degrees of sin involved.

    Traditional Catholics sometimes act as if wearing a sleeveless dress is the same thing as walking around naked, or if you walk into a church with a somewhat-form-fitting dress, that's the same as coming in with a skimpy bikini on.

    For women in particular, the line between being pretty and being immodest can be rather blurry.  And it's OK for a woman to want to feel pretty.  That's only natural.  As +Williamson likes to say, over and over again, grace does not destroy nature, but perfects and elevates it.  Of course, some women will stick out their neck in defiance of the Church's standards of modesty.  Then there are others who think that they are being modest in line with Catholic principles, but find that they have crossed over into a gray area where they think they just want to be pretty but then men find it sɛҳuąƖly attractive.  I told a lady once that I didn't think that what she was wearing was appropriate for Mass.  She took it well and changed into something else ... but she said "Why can't a woman just wear something like that to be pretty?"  So she wasn't defiant, as evidence by her changing without any resistance, but this also showed that she didn't think what she was wearing to be sɛҳuąƖly attractive to men, but rather just "pretty".  So as men, we need to be careful in bringing down the hammer on all women as if they were just prostitutes trying to have sex even in church.  Sure, some women are defiant against the Church's standards, but for most they are asserting their judgment that what they want to wear, to be pretty, should not be sɛҳuąƖized by men and forbidden for them to wear ... because men are so messed up (in their view).  If I think that a man is perverted if he has sɛҳuąƖ thoughts about a woman's hair, for instance, women likely marvel just as much that a man might have sɛҳuąƖ thoughts after seeing a dress slightly above the knees.  How is that sɛҳuąƖ?, they wonder.  After all, they don't react that way when they see a man's knees.  Most women dress for other women anyway, and not for the men.  Very few, especially the ones at Mass, have an overt sɛҳuąƖ intentions with the way they dress ... and if they only knew the kinds of thoughts their clothing could elicit, they would be really embarrassed.  So we need to be gentle with women.  Yes, you'll find some who are stubborn against Church teaching, and others who are in fact looking for sɛҳuąƖ attention from men ... but they're in the minority.  And yes, many of these are a little too preoccupied with how they look at Mass rather than with how they might distract other people.