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Author Topic: Sleep Training  (Read 4338 times)

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Offline St Giles

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Re: Sleep Training
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2024, 06:53:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: Geremia on July 09, 2024, 04:38:26 PM
    Citations needed.
    It's in a book of the sermons of St John Vianney.
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    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Sleep Training
    « Reply #16 on: July 09, 2024, 10:50:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: St Giles on July 09, 2024, 06:53:18 PM
    It's in a book of the sermons of St John Vianney.
    Oh yes I remember that sermon, "The Duties of the Mother" (in Sermons of the Curé of Ars: Patron Saint of Parish Priests). It's the same one where he tells parents not to let their babies run around in diapers because, even if no one is around, their angels still see.
    It begins:
    Quote from: Curé of Ars
    YOU SHOULD never have your children sleeping with you from the time they are two years old. If you do, you are committing a sin. The Church did not make this law without reason. You are bound to observe it.
    I'm not familiar with the law. Maybe it was in Gratian's Decretals?

    (Very odd that parents would sleep with their 2 year or older children anyways…)
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    Offline Geremia

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    Swaddle.
    « Reply #17 on: July 09, 2024, 10:55:32 PM »
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    • Also, surprised no one has mentioned swaddling. Infants feel more secure that way, aren't disturbed by involuntary muscle contractions, and sleep better when swaddled.
    "she brought forth her first born son and wrapped him up in swaddling clothes" —Lk. 2:7 (no word of Holy Scripture is superfluous and not for our instruction)
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    Offline FarmerWife

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    Re: Swaddle.
    « Reply #18 on: July 09, 2024, 11:34:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Geremia on July 09, 2024, 10:55:32 PM
    Also, surprised no one has mentioned swaddling. Infants feel more secure that way, aren't disturbed by involuntary muscle contractions, and sleep better when swaddled.
    "she brought forth her first born son and wrapped him up in swaddling clothes" —Lk. 2:7 (no word of Holy Scripture is superfluous and not for our instruction)
    Swaddling is only for younger babies like maybe up to 6 months. There are sleep sacks (arms are out but legs covered) and you can get them heavy-weighted but they’re expensive. Babies can roll around over near 6 months so if their arms are bound together it can be unsafe. 
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Sleep Training
    « Reply #19 on: July 10, 2024, 06:44:47 AM »
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    • Quote from: Geremia on July 09, 2024, 10:50:25 PM
    Oh yes I remember that sermon, "The Duties of the Mother" (in Sermons of the Curé of Ars: Patron Saint of Parish Priests).
    It begins:I'm not familiar with the law. Maybe it was in Gratian's Decretals?

    (Very odd that parents would sleep with their 2 year or older children anyways…)

    Here is a fuller excerpt which gives more information.

    THE DUTIES OF THE MOTHER
    You should never have your children sleeping with you from the time they are two years old. If you do, you are committing a sin. The Church did not make this law without reason. You are bound to observe it.

    But, you will say to me, sometimes it is very cold or we are very tired. All that, my dear brethren, is not a reason which could excuse you in the eyes of God. Besides, when you married, you knew quite well that you would be obliged to fulfil certain responsibilities and obligations which are attached to the married state.

    Still, my dear brethren, there are fathers and mothers who are so little instructed in their religion or who are so indifferent to their duties that they will have sleeping with them children from fifteen to eighteen years of age, and often brothers and sisters together. Dear Lord! These poor fathers and mothers are in a terrible state of ignorance! But, you will say, we have no bed. You have no bed? But it would be better to let them sleep on a chair or in a neighbour's house. Dear Lord! The parents and children who damn themselves! But I will return to my subject and repeat to you that all the time that you allow your children to sleep with you after they have reached two years of age, you are offending God.

    This thread is about a child of 14 months, so the sermon is not altogether relevant.

    One has to take this in its proper context keeping in mind the different conditions under which we live, compared to the time of St John Vianney.
    For example, Who, in our day and age would send our children to sleep in a neighbour’s house?

    I have never come across a law which would forbid allowing a child to jump into bed for a cuddle with his/her own mother.

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    Offline Disputaciones

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    Re: Sleep Training
    « Reply #20 on: July 10, 2024, 12:58:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Geremia on July 09, 2024, 04:38:26 PM
    Citations needed.
    St Alphonsus (#6 in the article)

    https://www.traditioninaction.org/Cultural/A063_Liguori_3.htm

    For St John Vianney, it was in one of his sermons, I’ll have to look it up. 
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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Sleep Training
    « Reply #21 on: July 10, 2024, 01:16:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Disputaciones on July 10, 2024, 12:58:55 PM
    St Alphonsus (#6 in the article)

    https://www.traditioninaction.org/Cultural/A063_Liguori_3.htm

    For St John Vianney, it was in one of his sermons, I’ll have to look it up.
    The first 2 years of a child's life is different from the rest.  The general idea of both St. John Vianney and St. Alphonso is more to not let the child get in the way of the marital act.  

    The child in question, if I remember correctly, is 11 months old. 

    So look at the post from 11 months on. 

    But I think I saw in another post that the child is sleeping better.  How about mom is she able to get more things done?
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    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine

    Offline FarmerWife

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    Re: Sleep Training
    « Reply #22 on: July 10, 2024, 01:34:22 PM »
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    • By the time the child is 2, the mom will probably be pregnant and have another baby and it's just not logical to have the toddler sleeping in the bed. It should get easier when there are more siblings who can share a room (same gender) and maybe the young kids can sleep better?
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    Offline jen51

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    Re: Sleep Training
    « Reply #23 on: July 11, 2024, 08:50:33 AM »
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    • I know husbands who refuse more children because their wives insist on co-sleeping with their kids until they are 4 or 5. The mothers act as if it is some grave emotional obligation to their children and the husband is an ogre for not going along. Often in these situations the husband will forfeit the marital bed to his wife and kids and he will sleep in a different room. That marks the beginning of the end of their marriage. Either that or he will stay in the bed and tolerate it and say no more children which again is a grave danger to the marriage. 

    Looked at in this light, I can see why St. Alphonsus is very staunch in his condemnation of it. 

    For a child to occasionally come to his parents bed for comfort after a bad dream or for security during a storm or other event, I see no harm if both parents are in agreement about it.  
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    Offline Disputaciones

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    Re: Sleep Training
    « Reply #24 on: July 11, 2024, 01:55:12 PM »
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    • Totally forgot he said 2 years old and up! I heard that sermon once last year.

    My apologies for making it seem he referred to ages below that.

    St Alphonsus gave no age but he probably means the same thing.
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    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Sleep Training
    « Reply #25 on: July 11, 2024, 01:55:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: jen51 on July 11, 2024, 08:50:33 AM
    mothers act as if it is some grave emotional obligation to their children and the husband is an ogre for not going along.
    Feminism is disgusting. 🤮
    This is borderline "single mothers by choice" mentality. 🤮
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    Offline Disputaciones

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    Re: Sleep Training
    « Reply #26 on: July 11, 2024, 03:41:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: jen51 on July 11, 2024, 08:50:33 AM
    I know husbands who refuse more children because their wives insist on co-sleeping with their kids until they are 4 or 5. The mothers act as if it is some grave emotional obligation to their children and the husband is an ogre for not going along. Often in these situations the husband will forfeit the marital bed to his wife and kids and he will sleep in a different room. That marks the beginning of the end of their marriage. Either that or he will stay in the bed and tolerate it and say no more children which again is a grave danger to the marriage.
    That sounds nuts, I hadn’t heard that before. 
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    Offline jen51

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    Re: Sleep Training
    « Reply #27 on: July 11, 2024, 09:04:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Disputaciones on July 11, 2024, 03:41:22 PM
    That sounds nuts, I hadn’t heard that before.
    It’s a big thing in the “natural” or attachment parenting community. 

    My cousin did this to her husband. It was such a sad ordeal. They finalized their divorce 18 months ago.
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    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Sleep Training
    « Reply #28 on: July 12, 2024, 03:00:25 AM »
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    • In event of There’s always exceptions, like when camping in a tent or in several instances the entire family slot on mattresses and blankets on the floor surrounding the woodstove.  This was an an Amish family of 17 plus myself and a hired hand.  The temperature fell that night to -56 F.  That is dangerously cold.  Everyone wore full clothing including coats, hats, etc.  Dad and the older boys took turns sitting up tending the stove and making sure nobody or cloth got on fire.  Obviously, no marital acts were taking place!
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    Offline FarmerWife

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    Re: Sleep Training
    « Reply #29 on: July 12, 2024, 10:13:08 AM »
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    • We were going to visit an old Ukrainian farm historical site yesterday but it was too hot. The immigrants (1900s) had 12 kids and it was a tiny house! But, they built separate cabins (bunkhouses) for the boys and girls that were of course detached from the original house. This was also in a much colder climate.
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