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Author Topic: Sitting out the election?  (Read 7244 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: Sitting out the election?
« Reply #90 on: July 05, 2020, 07:03:29 AM »
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  • catholicapologetics.info indeed censored that section. I found it there.


    3. CONDITIONS THAT MAY RELIEVE ONE FROM THE OBLIGATION 

    OF VOTING

    While in general it seems that the citizen is bound sub levi to
    vote in every ordinary election, and even sub gravi in matters of
    grave importance, there may be extenuating circuмstances that will
    relieve him of the obligation. While the gravity of the obligation
    depends upon the good to be gained and the evil to be avoided so
    that it is somewhat difficult to determine all the excusing causes,
    still some general principles may be listed.

    If the election were interpreted as the recognition of a tyrannical
    form of government or an unlawful one, there would lie no obliga-
    tion to vote. Indeed there would be an obligation of not voting.
    Tanquerey points out that if a person were morally certain that
    his ballot would in no way affect the outcome of an election, he
    could refrain from voting for a slight cause, although, he adds, it
    would be better to vote for some worthy candidate and thus give
    good example.

    Slight reasons such as vacation, hunting, recreation, etc., would
    in themselves not constitute an excusing cause. [...]



    Today, virtually all parties in all ʝʊdɛօ-masonic republics of the "free world" go against natural law. Following Titus Cranny, we are free to interpret an election as a recognition of an unlawful government, and have an obligation of not voting. Or we avoid such an interpretion and have an obligation to vote.

    :jester:
    Excellent find Struthio, thanks.   I thought I was going blind.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Sitting out the election?
    « Reply #91 on: July 05, 2020, 07:05:51 AM »
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  • Hi 2 Vermont. I wasn't aware a question was directed at me. As to the excerpt above, agreed. Ordinarily, there would be a right but not a duty, i.e. it would be legitimate but not necessary to vote for such a person. But I find it interesting that in the portion I have underlined, it is said that even someone who harms the Church (and I think we can agree President Trump is not harming the Church; indeed, in one of the videos earlier, I think the pro-life speech, he mentions that he's helped the Little Sisters of the Poor, who were being harmed under the Obama administration, with forced contraceptives/abortifacients etc being required at Catholic hospitals) may in some cases be necessary to vote for. A fortiori, I would submit for your consideration, it is more than legitimate to support President Trump; and can arguably be said to be necessary, in order to prevent the election of the other more unworthy candidate, namely Joe Biden, to vote for President Trump, on the basis of the above.

    God Bless.
    I have no problem with you saying it might be necessary.  That is a far cry from a moral obligation. 


    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Sitting out the election?
    « Reply #92 on: July 05, 2020, 07:41:04 AM »
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  • I think there is a semantic misunderstanding here. In the context of that writing, I think Possible=Legitimate; Necessary=Obligation.

    When we say something is morally necessary, we mean we are obliged to do it. Thus, it is morally necessary to go to Mass every Sunday.

    When we say something is morally possible or legitimate, we mean we can do it. But we are not obliged to. So I think necessary refers to the former.

    But has anyone asked their Priest or Bishop? My estimate is 90% of Traditional Priests would tell Catholics to support and vote for President Trump, mainly for the pro-life, freedom of Catholic Nuns etc reasons.

    I think it would be right to say there is a obligation to vote; and that obligation, for grave reasons, in certain circuмstances, could perhaps be dispensed from by a Bishop. But if you ask Priests, most will say to vote.

    That's just my impression. Someone please check with a few Traditional Priests and Bishops and get back. I believe some here have the email of Bishop Fellay and the SSPX Bishops, Bp. Williamson and the Resistance Bishops etc.

    Offline Reach Down

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    Re: Sitting out the election?
    « Reply #93 on: July 05, 2020, 10:15:59 AM »
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  • Today, virtually all parties in all ʝʊdɛօ-masonic republics of the "free world" go against natural law. Following Titus Cranny, we are free to interpret an election as a recognition of an unlawful government, and have an obligation of not voting.

    Nailed it.

    Both Biden and Trump support sodomy which is against the Lord's Divine Law and natural law which He created. Both candidates are indifferent to upholding the Rule of Law including bringing to justice those government officials involved in thievery, bribery, ѕєdιтισn, & treason, all of which violate the Lord's Divine Laws in the 10 Commandments. Example: Hillary is still walking free and charges were never brought against her. Trump lied.

    "Iniquity" in the bible means "lawlessness"  which means violations of God's Divine Laws.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sitting out the election?
    « Reply #94 on: July 05, 2020, 10:35:48 AM »
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  • That's just my impression. Someone please check with a few Traditional Priests and Bishops and get back. I believe some here have the email of Bishop Fellay and the SSPX Bishops, Bp. Williamson and the Resistance Bishops etc.

    I've cited articles published by the SSPX which state that all theologians agree that one is in no way required to vote for a "less unworthy" candidate and thereby become a material participant in evil.  AT BEST, it may be permitted if one can justify the vote based on the principle of double effect.




    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sitting out the election?
    « Reply #95 on: July 05, 2020, 10:37:32 AM »
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  • Taylor Marshall is just another conciliarist posing as a trad-wannabe.

    His book is a joke (and betrays his conciliarism).

    It even features an introduction by +Schneider deploring the infiltration of subversives, without recognizing that +Schneider himself is one of them.

    Perhaps one day, Marshall will go further along the road than Michael Matt did, but this far, he has not.

    He's getting there.  In a recent video, he actually agreed with +Vigano against +Schneider regarding the defectiveness of Vatican II and how the hermeutic of continuity simply doesn't work.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sitting out the election?
    « Reply #96 on: July 05, 2020, 10:39:52 AM »
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  • One might be reasonably tempted to write this off as little more than his attempt to win devotion from the Pro-Life part of his base.  Trump does a lot of talking/tweeting, but there's very little action in most cases.

    His appointment of Gorsuch has been an unmitigated disaster.  No one disagreeds that the alternative (Biden) would be worse.  That does not make Trump a worthy candidate; he's far from it.

    So instead of appealing to emotional considerations, one has to consider, rationally, whether the principle of double effect applies to voting for Trump.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Sitting out the election?
    « Reply #97 on: July 05, 2020, 10:40:12 AM »
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  • catholicapologetics.info indeed censored that section. I found it there.

    3. CONDITIONS THAT MAY RELIEVE ONE FROM THE OBLIGATION

    OF VOTING

    While in general it seems that the citizen is bound sub levi to
    vote in every ordinary election, and even sub gravi in matters of
    grave importance, there may be extenuating circuмstances that will
    relieve him of the obligation. While the gravity of the obligation
    depends upon the good to be gained and the evil to be avoided so
    that it is somewhat difficult to determine all the excusing causes,
    still some general principles may be listed.

    If the election were interpreted as the recognition of a tyrannical
    form of government or an unlawful one, there would lie no obliga-
    tion to vote. Indeed there would be an obligation of not voting.
    Tanquerey points out that if a person were morally certain that
    his ballot would in no way affect the outcome of an election, he
    could refrain from voting for a slight cause, although, he adds, it
    would be better to vote for some worthy candidate and thus give
    good example.

    Slight reasons such as vacation, hunting, recreation, etc., would
    in themselves not constitute an excusing cause. [...]
    Again, Xavier, note that this section (apparently conveniently left out of the link you provided ... although I am not saying that is your fault) discusses conditions that would relieve a Catholic from voting.  The part I bolded is very interesting because it is what many people believe about our elections.  Notice that when it is recommended to vote anyway that it's to vote for a "worthy" candidate.  


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sitting out the election?
    « Reply #98 on: July 05, 2020, 10:43:18 AM »
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  • I actually question whether double effect even applies to voting.  When we vote for a candidate, in a democratic system, our votes actually put the person in power.  It's like saying that if I drive a doctor to his abortion clinic after his car broke down, I am merely a material participant in his abortion.  I don't think this washes.

    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: Sitting out the election?
    « Reply #99 on: July 05, 2020, 03:35:40 PM »
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  • And I'll say it again ...the few Catholics you're speaking to aren't going to change the blue states to red.  But you keep wagging your finger if that makes you feel better.
    When you only think state-level, it's hard to not think that most votes are worthless. I show up to vote firstly for my congressional district which has been blue since it was created, but with only about 2/3 of the votes. The right candidate in the right year will change that. (Hoping 2020 is that year!)

    Offline Argentino

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    Re: Sitting out the election?
    « Reply #100 on: July 05, 2020, 03:42:09 PM »
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  • Hi 2 Vermont. I wasn't aware a question was directed at me. As to the excerpt above, agreed. Ordinarily, there would be a right but not a duty, i.e. it would be legitimate but not necessary to vote for such a person. But I find it interesting that in the portion I have underlined, it is said that even someone who harms the Church (and I think we can agree President Trump is not harming the Church; indeed, in one of the videos earlier, I think the pro-life speech, he mentions that he's helped the Little Sisters of the Poor, who were being harmed under the Obama administration, with forced contraceptives/abortifacients etc being required at Catholic hospitals) may in some cases be necessary to vote for. A fortiori, I would submit for your consideration, it is more than legitimate to support President Trump; and can arguably be said to be necessary, in order to prevent the election of the other more unworthy candidate, namely Joe Biden, to vote for President Trump, on the basis of the above.

    God Bless.

    Are you saying that if a man has on his platform that he would support something intrinsically evil, that it would not be intrinsically evil to vote for him?


    Offline Minnesota

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    Re: Sitting out the election?
    « Reply #101 on: July 05, 2020, 03:51:19 PM »
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  • When you only think state-level, it's hard to not think that most votes are worthless. I show up to vote firstly for my congressional district which has been blue since it was created, but with only about 2/3 of the votes. The right candidate in the right year will change that. (Hoping 2020 is that year!)
    The hardest things to flip red would be some of the blue states, especially if they're swung that way by a major metro (i.e., New York State or Illinois).  Congressional districts, both state and national, can flip pretty easily depending on the candidate. 

    My own state of Minnesota was within 2 points of being won by Donald Trump in 2016, and two previously blue districts here (1st and 8th) voted the Republican in office, one of those being the Governor's old district.
    Christ is Risen! He is risen indeed

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Sitting out the election?
    « Reply #102 on: July 05, 2020, 04:12:25 PM »
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  • The reason they say politics makes strange bedfellows is because the good guys always manage to compromise something in order to gain something they consider worth selling out some other good for.  The bad guys never seem to need to compromise.   

    And I say to you: Make unto you friends of the mammon of iniquity; that when you shall fail, they may receive you into everlasting dwellings."  

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Sitting out the election?
    « Reply #103 on: July 05, 2020, 06:20:17 PM »
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  • Choosing a lesser evil means that, in its simplest form, you have TWO choices to do something, and you HAVE TO choose one by force of circuмstance. You choose what you consider to be the lesser evil.

    If I had to choose to vote between Trump and a Democrat, it's obvious I would vote for Trump.

    But IF voting for Trump were intrinsically evil for some reason, then I would either have to choose to refrain from voting at all, or choose someone else who is not an intrinsically evil vote.
    Thank you.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sitting out the election?
    « Reply #104 on: July 05, 2020, 07:38:16 PM »
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  • Biden and Trump sure love them Jews and sodomites.

    Could Trump be a (crypto) Jew, too? He reads and practices the Jєωιѕн Kabbalah. We know his daughter is a Jew married to another Jew.


    Yikes.  I didn't know it was this bad.