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Author Topic: Sitting out the election?  (Read 7234 times)

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Offline Nishant Xavier

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Re: Sitting out the election?
« Reply #75 on: July 04, 2020, 12:42:01 AM »
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  • Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Sitting out the election?
    « Reply #76 on: July 04, 2020, 12:57:05 AM »
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  • Taylor Marshall is just another conciliarist posing as a trad-wannabe.

    His book is a joke (and betrays his conciliarism).

    It even features an introduction by +Schneider deploring the infiltration of subversives, without recognizing that +Schneider himself is one of them.

    Perhaps one day, Marshall will go further along the road than Michael Matt did, but this far, he has not.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Sitting out the election?
    « Reply #77 on: July 04, 2020, 02:51:09 AM »
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  • I wonder if those on here trying to get Catholics not to vote for Trump are paid trolls working for the communists. This should be a no brainer for Catholics, but they sow the seed of dissension to cloud the issue and are getting Catholics to sit home on Election Day, effectually giving the presidency to Joe Biden who is a puppet for the communists and enemy to all real Catholics.  
    I definitely think this is possible in the case of Ballistox.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Sitting out the election?
    « Reply #78 on: July 04, 2020, 12:29:10 PM »
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  • I wonder if those on here trying to get Catholics not to vote for Trump are paid trolls working for the communists. This should be a no brainer for Catholics, but they sow the seed of dissension to cloud the issue and are getting Catholics to sit home on Election Day, effectually giving the presidency to Joe Biden who is a puppet for the communists and enemy to all real Catholics.  
    You have a great point. To get the most bang for their buck, the paid anti-Trump trolls would in all likelihood, have a secondary goal. In regard to a site like this one, what might that be?
    IMHO, the secondary goal would be to smear Cath Info and smear traditional Catholicism by white supremacist statements and repeated use of the "n" word.
    This is known as a "fαℓѕє fℓαg." Pretending to be a traditional Catholic while actually being an enemy of traditional Catholicism.
    I can just see the next report of the hate group which pretends to opposed hate, the SPLC. They will print the repeated use of the "n" word and other examples FROM THIS WEBSITE of white hatred against blacks as proof that traditional Catholics in general and Cath Info specifically are racist.
    Their paid shills will have helped them docuмent it.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Sitting out the election?
    « Reply #79 on: July 04, 2020, 01:14:45 PM »
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  • I wonder if those on here trying to get Catholics not to vote for Trump are paid trolls working for the communists. This should be a no brainer for Catholics, but they sow the seed of dissension to cloud the issue and are getting Catholics to sit home on Election Day, effectually giving the presidency to Joe Biden who is a puppet for the communists and enemy to all real Catholics.  
    Do you really think that if we don't vote that would give Joe Biden the presidency?  Really?  Think about the states that many of us live in, and then think about how many Catholics you're actually talking to....and please save me the "this should be a no brainer".


    Offline Cera

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    Re: Sitting out the election?
    « Reply #80 on: July 04, 2020, 01:22:05 PM »
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  • Taylor Marshall is just another conciliarist posing as a trad-wannabe.

    His book is a joke (and betrays his conciliarism).

    It even features an introduction by +Schneider deploring the infiltration of subversives, without recognizing that +Schneider himself is one of them.

    Perhaps one day, Marshall will go further along the road than Michael Matt did, but this far, he has not.
    Listen to the link someone provided, and you will see that he is already further along the road than Michael Matt. He calls the concilliar hierarchy "wolves in sheeps clothing."
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

    Offline Bellato

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    Re: Sitting out the election?
    « Reply #81 on: July 04, 2020, 06:47:04 PM »
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  • Do you really think that if we don't vote that would give Joe Biden the presidency?  Really?  Think about the states that many of us live in, and then think about how many Catholics you're actually talking to....and please save me the "this should be a no brainer".
    Your post is music to the ears of the commie-Democrats who want to keep Blue states Blue.  

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Sitting out the election?
    « Reply #82 on: July 04, 2020, 09:23:13 PM »
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  • Your post is music to the ears of the commie-Democrats who want to keep Blue states Blue.  
    And I'll say it again ...the few Catholics you're speaking to aren't going to change the blue states to red.  But you keep wagging your finger if that makes you feel better.


    Offline Bellato

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    Re: Sitting out the election?
    « Reply #83 on: July 04, 2020, 11:58:36 PM »
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  • And I'll say it again ...the few Catholics you're speaking to aren't going to change the blue states to red.  But you keep wagging your finger if that makes you feel better.
    Obviously, but if Catholics with others who care about this country vote, then it might make a difference.  If Catholics sit home, that's less total votes to help Trump, block Biden, or whatever way you slice it.  

    Sitting home helps the commies.   Voting might help if enough show up who still care about truth and stopping our country from becoming communist.  

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Sitting out the election?
    « Reply #84 on: July 05, 2020, 01:14:45 AM »
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  • From: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/morality/general/voting.htm 

    "The specter of apathy and undesirable disinterestedness is rising more and more upon the country’s horizon. Many American citizens are not interested in their role as citizens; they clamor for their rights, but forget their duties; they insist upon what is owed them, but forget what they owe others. Thus the popular author, Fulton Oursler, observes the situation as neither healthy or happy.

    Today’s curse upon political life is not so much what is unlawful as what is unscrupulous. At the root of our decay is sickness of conscience. Moral obtuseness is a national plague over free government. This decline in national character is a serious danger, because if we lose our standards, all our liberties may be lost through abuses, corruption, and chaos…. “That is politics,” we say. As if politics needed to be a sinkhole. Without a vision the people are perishing; they are even finding something to admire in the slickness, the tricky deceitfulness by which the taxpayers are bilked. They smile at scoundrels in office as if they were only amusing scalawags. [13]

    Nor is such an attitude of unwarranted pessimism. For the number of United States citizens who voted in the presidential election of 1948 was a scandal. According to statistics only about fifty-two percent of the eligible voters used their vote- a sad commentary upon the civic conscience of the average citizen. If the trend continues it may well be that the words of Christopher Dawson about Europe may be fulfilled in the United States.

    To vote in an election or plebiscite today has ceased to be purely political action. It has become an affirmation of faith in a particular social philosophy and theory of history; a decision between two or three mutually exclusive forms of civilization. I do not say this is a good thing; or: the contrary, it means that history and social philosophy are being distorted and debased by political propaganda and party feeling. [14]

    The Catholic Church is not interested in voting as a purely political activity any more than she is interested in the purely political form of government. But she is interested in voting as moral activity with duties and obligations to which are conjoined important consequences for good or evil. On this matter Pope Pius XII has laid down this principle:

    The Church, indeed does not claim to interfere without reason in the direction of temporal or purely political affairs; nevertheless of her full right, she claims that the civil power must not allege this as an excuse for placing obstacles in the way of those higher goods on which the eternal salvation of man depends, for inflicting loss and injury through unjust laws and decrees, for impairing the divine constitution of the Church itself, or for trampling underfoot the sacred rights of God in civil society. [15]

    Through her interest in the rights of God and in the rights and duties of men, the Church declares in the Code of Canon Law that “…by her power and exclusive right the Church takes cognizance …of all matters in which is to be found a ratio peccati.” [16] These words, used by Pope Boniface VIII and Innocent III, do not refer exclusively to theological matters, but to all that pertains to the good of religion, either positively or negatively; positively, as they are necessary for the good of religion as the end of the Church; negatively, as they are obstacles to that end and must be eliminated.

    A further instance of the Church’s role of moral guidance in political affairs comes from the following statement of Pope Pius XII.
    The moral order and God’s commandments have a force equally in all fields of human activity. As far as the fields stretch, so far extends the mission of the Church, and also her teachings, warnings, and the counsel of the priest to the faithful confided to his care….The Catholic Church will never allow herself to be shut up within the four walls of the temple. The separation between religion and life, between the Church and the world is contrary to the Christian and Catholic idea. [17]

    Finally, as a concluding proof that politics is within the sphere of the Church’s interest and judgment insofar as moral issues are involved, we may quote Pope Pius X who declared in his first consistorial allocution November 9, 1903: “We do not conceal the fact that We shall shock some people by saying that We must necessarily concern ourselves with politics. But anyone forming an equitable judgment clearly sees that the Supreme Pontiff can in no wise violently withdraw the category of politics from subjection to the supreme control of faith and morals confided to him.” [18]

    This work of the moral obligation of voting in civil elections is divided into three parts. The first deals with nature, the concept, and the kinds of voting, with a brief history to show its development during the centuries. The second part deals with the general and specific principles that should guide citizens in the exercise of the franchise with particular stress given to the statements of the Supreme Pontiffs and the members of the hierarchy. The third part considers the duties that flow from the obligation to vote, viz., a knowledge of the principles, of the candidates, of the issues at stake, and the use of the means to promote wise and intelligent voting; it also considers the role of the priest in directing the faithful in the proper discharge of their duty. Finally there is an appendix of important pastorals on the obligation of voting from prominent members of the hierarchy."

    IMPRIMI POTEST:
    Angelus F. Delahaunt, S.A.
    Pater Generalis

    NIHIL OBSTAT:
    Francis J. Connell, C.Ss.R., S.T.D.
    Censor Deputatis

    IMPRIMATUR:
    † Patrick A. O’Boyle, D.D.
    Archiepiscopus Washingtoniensis
    July 24, 1952

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Sitting out the election?
    « Reply #85 on: July 05, 2020, 02:41:57 AM »
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  • https://www.npr.org/transcripts/886285772

    Audio in the link:

    MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:The Trump administration has reached an important milestone. With a boost from the Republican-led Senate, President Trump has now confirmed 200 judges. Those judges serve for life, so it's a legacy that could extend for a generation. NPR national justice correspondent Carrie Johnson reports.

    CARRIE JOHNSON, BYLINE: On the Senate floor last week, as lawmakers prepared to vote on yet another judge nominee, Majority Leader Mitch McConnell took a victory lap.

    (SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
    MITCH MCCONNELL: When we depart this chamber today, there will not be a single circuit court vacancy anywhere in the nation for the first time in at least 40 years.

    JOHNSON: McConnell has been advancing President Trump's judge picks with single-minded focus.
    (SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

    MCCONNELL: It's a victory for the rule of law and for the Constitution.
    JOHNSON: Conservative advocate Carrie Severino is thrilled.
    CARRIE SEVERINO: Filling all of these circuit seats is an unmitigated success - no downside to that. Let's, as leader McConnell has said, leave no vacancy behind.

    JOHNSON: Severino leads the Judicial Crisis Network. It pushes for the confirmation of Trump nominees.
    SEVERINO: When you look particular at his appellate nominees - you know, Obama, in eight years, had 55 appellate nominees confirmed. Trump, in only four years, has already had 53.

    JOHNSON: Chris Kang vetted judge candidates during the Obama years. He says there's a reason for that startling number. It's Republicans' stonewalling of the previous president, says Kang.

    CHRIS KANG: McConnell confirmed the fewest judges since President Truman during President Obama's last two years in office, so the reason that Donald Trump has 200 judgeships to fill in the first place is because McConnell obstructed.

    JOHNSON: Aside from the sheer numbers of Trump judges, there's the longevity. Many of the Trump nominees are in their 30s and 40s - not anywhere near retirement age. Again, Chris Kang.

    KANG: Even if Donald Trump is gone in January, these judges are going to be ruling for decades to come.
    JOHNSON: And they'll be ruling in cases that matter - abortion access, climate change, voting rights and more. Something else stands out about the Trump judge picks. Vanita Gupta leads the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights.

    VANITA GUPTA: They are largely white and male. It is an astonishing lack of representation.
    JOHNSON: Nearly 7 in 10 of the Trump judges are white men. Just 28 of the 200 are people of color.

    GUPTA: You end up with a judiciary that is really out of step with where the country is as a whole because it takes a fair amount of work, actually, to end up with those statistics.

    JOHNSON: But Trump allies say some of the nominees do represent diverse backgrounds. Judge Amy Coney Barrett is the mother of seven children, Judge Don Willett was raised by his single mom in a trailer park, and Judge Jim Ho is the son of immigrants from Taiwan. All three of them could appear on President Trump's short list for the next Supreme Court vacancy. The president says he'll publish a new list by September, before the election. Candidate Trump adopted a similar approach four years ago to signal that Republican voters could trust him. Things worked well back then, says Carrie Severino. She says Trump's judges have been different. They're bolder but not in a bad way.

    SEVERINO: They're not simply trying to keep their heads down and become the blank slate that may have been the ideal nominee in a prior Republican administration, someone who really has no track record whatsoever. But instead, these nominees are people who are willing to stand up for what they know is right.

    JOHNSON: For Democrats like Chris Kang, that's not something to celebrate.
    KANG: These are far more extreme judges than even President George W. Bush put on the bench, and we're moving in the wrong direction.

    JOHNSON: Kang says he has no doubt if more judge vacancies emerge later this year, Trump and McConnell will race to fill them, underscoring how important judges are to Republican officeholders and the people who vote for them. Carrie Johnson, NPR News, Washington.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Sitting out the election?
    « Reply #86 on: July 05, 2020, 06:19:38 AM »
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  • From: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/morality/general/voting.htm

    "The specter of apathy and undesirable disinterestedness is rising more and more upon the country’s horizon. Many American citizens are not interested in their role as citizens; they clamor for their rights, but forget their duties; they insist upon what is owed them, but forget what they owe others. Thus the popular author, Fulton Oursler, observes the situation as neither healthy or happy.

    Today’s curse upon political life is not so much what is unlawful as what is unscrupulous. At the root of our decay is sickness of conscience. Moral obtuseness is a national plague over free government. This decline in national character is a serious danger, because if we lose our standards, all our liberties may be lost through abuses, corruption, and chaos…. “That is politics,” we say. As if politics needed to be a sinkhole. Without a vision the people are perishing; they are even finding something to admire in the slickness, the tricky deceitfulness by which the taxpayers are bilked. They smile at scoundrels in office as if they were only amusing scalawags. [13]

    Nor is such an attitude of unwarranted pessimism. For the number of United States citizens who voted in the presidential election of 1948 was a scandal. According to statistics only about fifty-two percent of the eligible voters used their vote- a sad commentary upon the civic conscience of the average citizen. If the trend continues it may well be that the words of Christopher Dawson about Europe may be fulfilled in the United States.

    To vote in an election or plebiscite today has ceased to be purely political action. It has become an affirmation of faith in a particular social philosophy and theory of history; a decision between two or three mutually exclusive forms of civilization. I do not say this is a good thing; or: the contrary, it means that history and social philosophy are being distorted and debased by political propaganda and party feeling. [14]

    The Catholic Church is not interested in voting as a purely political activity any more than she is interested in the purely political form of government. But she is interested in voting as moral activity with duties and obligations to which are conjoined important consequences for good or evil. On this matter Pope Pius XII has laid down this principle:

    The Church, indeed does not claim to interfere without reason in the direction of temporal or purely political affairs; nevertheless of her full right, she claims that the civil power must not allege this as an excuse for placing obstacles in the way of those higher goods on which the eternal salvation of man depends, for inflicting loss and injury through unjust laws and decrees, for impairing the divine constitution of the Church itself, or for trampling underfoot the sacred rights of God in civil society. [15]

    Through her interest in the rights of God and in the rights and duties of men, the Church declares in the Code of Canon Law that “…by her power and exclusive right the Church takes cognizance …of all matters in which is to be found a ratio peccati.” [16] These words, used by Pope Boniface VIII and Innocent III, do not refer exclusively to theological matters, but to all that pertains to the good of religion, either positively or negatively; positively, as they are necessary for the good of religion as the end of the Church; negatively, as they are obstacles to that end and must be eliminated.

    A further instance of the Church’s role of moral guidance in political affairs comes from the following statement of Pope Pius XII.
    The moral order and God’s commandments have a force equally in all fields of human activity. As far as the fields stretch, so far extends the mission of the Church, and also her teachings, warnings, and the counsel of the priest to the faithful confided to his care….The Catholic Church will never allow herself to be shut up within the four walls of the temple. The separation between religion and life, between the Church and the world is contrary to the Christian and Catholic idea. [17]

    Finally, as a concluding proof that politics is within the sphere of the Church’s interest and judgment insofar as moral issues are involved, we may quote Pope Pius X who declared in his first consistorial allocution November 9, 1903: “We do not conceal the fact that We shall shock some people by saying that We must necessarily concern ourselves with politics. But anyone forming an equitable judgment clearly sees that the Supreme Pontiff can in no wise violently withdraw the category of politics from subjection to the supreme control of faith and morals confided to him.” [18]

    This work of the moral obligation of voting in civil elections is divided into three parts. The first deals with nature, the concept, and the kinds of voting, with a brief history to show its development during the centuries. The second part deals with the general and specific principles that should guide citizens in the exercise of the franchise with particular stress given to the statements of the Supreme Pontiffs and the members of the hierarchy. The third part considers the duties that flow from the obligation to vote, viz., a knowledge of the principles, of the candidates, of the issues at stake, and the use of the means to promote wise and intelligent voting; it also considers the role of the priest in directing the faithful in the proper discharge of their duty. Finally there is an appendix of important pastorals on the obligation of voting from prominent members of the hierarchy."

    IMPRIMI POTEST:
    Angelus F. Delahaunt, S.A.
    Pater Generalis

    NIHIL OBSTAT:
    Francis J. Connell, C.Ss.R., S.T.D.
    Censor Deputatis

    IMPRIMATUR:
    † Patrick A. O’Boyle, D.D.
    Archiepiscopus Washingtoniensis
    July 24, 1952
    Let's try this again Xavier (from the same link):

    When unworthy candidates are running for office, ordinarily a citizen does not have the obligation for voting for them. Indeed he would not be permitted to vote for them if there were any reasonable way of electing a worthy man, either by organizing another party, by using the “write in” method, or by any other lawful means. On the other hand, it would be licit to vote for an unworthy man if the choice were only between or among unworthy candidates; and it might even be necessary to vote for such an unworthy candidate (if the voting were limited to such personalities) and even for one who would render harm to the Church, provided the election were only a choice from among unworthy men and the voting for the less unworthy would prevent the election of another more unworthy.

    http://www.catholicapologetics.info/morality/general/voting.htm

    Note that there is no "obligation".  It may be "licit" or "necessary" to vote for an unworthy man, but there is no "moral obligation". I find it interesting that this link mentions a section where there are "conditions that may relieve one of the obligation to vote", but it doesn't seem to include the text for it.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Sitting out the election?
    « Reply #87 on: July 05, 2020, 06:29:53 AM »
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  • Obviously, but if Catholics with others who care about this country vote, then it might make a difference.  If Catholics sit home, that's less total votes to help Trump, block Biden, or whatever way you slice it.  

    Sitting home helps the commies.   Voting might help if enough show up who still care about truth and stopping our country from becoming communist.  
    More wagging of finger and more guilt trips.  I'll do what I think is best and is in accordance with my conscience (and I have not decided as of yet).  Catholic teaching does not oblige that I vote for either of these unworthy candidates.

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Sitting out the election?
    « Reply #88 on: July 05, 2020, 06:57:56 AM »
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  • Let's try this again Xavier (from the same link):

    When unworthy candidates are running for office, ordinarily a citizen does not have the obligation for voting for them. Indeed he would not be permitted to vote for them if there were any reasonable way of electing a worthy man, either by organizing another party, by using the “write in” method, or by any other lawful means. On the other hand, it would be licit to vote for an unworthy man if the choice were only between or among unworthy candidates; and it might even be necessary to vote for such an unworthy candidate (if the voting were limited to such personalities) and even for one who would render harm to the Church, provided the election were only a choice from among unworthy men and the voting for the less unworthy would prevent the election of another more unworthy. [underlining mine]

    http://www.catholicapologetics.info/morality/general/voting.htm

    Note that there is no "obligation".  It may be "licit" or "necessary" to vote for an unworthy man, but there is no "moral obligation". I find it interesting that this link mentions a section where there are "conditions that may relieve one of the obligation to vote", but it doesn't seem to include the text for it.
    Hi 2 Vermont. I wasn't aware a question was directed at me. As to the excerpt above, agreed. Ordinarily, there would be a right but not a duty, i.e. it would be legitimate but not necessary to vote for such a person. But I find it interesting that in the portion I have underlined, it is said that even someone who harms the Church (and I think we can agree President Trump is not harming the Church; indeed, in one of the videos earlier, I think the pro-life speech, he mentions that he's helped the Little Sisters of the Poor, who were being harmed under the Obama administration, with forced contraceptives/abortifacients etc being required at Catholic hospitals) may in some cases be necessary to vote for. A fortiori, I would submit for your consideration, it is more than legitimate to support President Trump; and can arguably be said to be necessary, in order to prevent the election of the other more unworthy candidate, namely Joe Biden, to vote for President Trump, on the basis of the above.

    God Bless.

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Sitting out the election?
    « Reply #89 on: July 05, 2020, 06:58:19 AM »
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  • I find it interesting that this link mentions a section where there are "conditions that may relieve one of the obligation to vote", but it doesn't seem to include the text for it.

    catholicapologetics.info indeed censored that section. I found it there.


    3. CONDITIONS THAT MAY RELIEVE ONE FROM THE OBLIGATION 

    OF VOTING

    While in general it seems that the citizen is bound sub levi to
    vote in every ordinary election, and even sub gravi in matters of
    grave importance, there may be extenuating circuмstances that will
    relieve him of the obligation. While the gravity of the obligation
    depends upon the good to be gained and the evil to be avoided so
    that it is somewhat difficult to determine all the excusing causes,
    still some general principles may be listed.

    If the election were interpreted as the recognition of a tyrannical
    form of government or an unlawful one, there would lie no obliga-
    tion to vote. Indeed there would be an obligation of not voting.
    Tanquerey points out that if a person were morally certain that
    his ballot would in no way affect the outcome of an election, he
    could refrain from voting for a slight cause, although, he adds, it
    would be better to vote for some worthy candidate and thus give
    good example.

    Slight reasons such as vacation, hunting, recreation, etc., would
    in themselves not constitute an excusing cause. [...]



    Today, virtually all parties in all ʝʊdɛօ-masonic republics of the "free world" go against natural law. Following Titus Cranny, we are free to interpret an election as a recognition of an unlawful government, and have an obligation of not voting. Or we avoid such an interpretion and have an obligation to vote.

    :jester: