Author Topic: Sitting out the election? (Read 7250 times)

Nishant Xavier · « **Reply #30 on:** July 03, 2020, 07:55:56 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

If one wants to speak in Catholic terms, we must use the term double effect. For instance, I may vote for Trump with the intention that he MIGHT appoint a decent Justice to the Supreme Court if/when Ginsberg dies or any of the others retire or die, etc. I know that voting for Trump might have the undesired secondary effect of his promoting the gαy agenda or other such evil, but I do not intend the secondary effect and believe that the proportionality between the two effects justifies the vote despite the evils that Trump might do. There are good articles out there about the principle of double effect. But we must stop talking and thinking in terms of "lesser evil."

Yes, I agree with this, in principle. However, I disagree with your application of the principle, and therefore with your conclusion, Ladislaus.

Here's Wiki on the Doctrine of Double Effect: "This set of criteria states that an action having foreseen harmful effects practically inseparable from the good effect is justifiable if the following are true:

the nature of the act is itself good, or at least morally neutral;
the agent intends the good effect and does not intend the bad effect either as a means to the good or as an end in itself;
the good effect outweighs the bad effect in circuмstances sufficiently grave to justify causing the bad effect and the agent exercises due diligence to minimize the harm." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_double_effect

Voting is itself good. The Christian pro-Trump voter intends the moral good of saving millions (and potentially hundreds of millions of lives) by ending abortion. This good effect vastly outweighs the potentially bad effects that cannot be curtailed at the present time and that are best handled in future elections. Ergo, Double Effect at least proves it is permissible to vote for President Trump:

Here's a Voting Guide explaining the issues in further detail: "Sad to say, however, many citizens, even Catholics, have been remiss in their obligation of voting. Even people otherwise good, fail to exercise their right when duty demands it. They are negligent and careless when they should be interested and active. But the obligation of the ballot stands and the direct words of the American Hierarchy during the heated campaign of 1840 apply with equal fitness today:

…reflect that you are accountable not only to society but to God for the honest, independent and fearless exercise of your franchise, that it is a trust confided to you, not for your private gain, but for the public good and that if yielding to any influence you act either through favor, affection or motives of dishonest gain against your own deliberate view of what will promote your country’s good, you have violated your trust, you have betrayed your conscience, and you are a renegade to your country. [10]

But the gravity of the obligation received its strongest sanction from the present Holy Father, Pope Pius XII, in 1946 and in 1948 when he urged and commanded the faithful to vote in Italy. In a discourse to the Pastors and Lenten Preachers of Rome March 16, 1946, he gave this advice:

The exercise of the right to vote is an act of grave responsibility, at least when there is the question involved of electing those whose office it will be to give the country its constitutions and its laws, particularly those which effect, for example, the sanctification of feast days, marriage, family life and school, the various phases of social life. It therefore falls to the Church to explain to the faithful their moral duties which derive from their right to vote. [11]

To the same body of clergy he spoke two years later (March 10, 1948) and with even more emphasis. His words were the following:

It is your right and duty to draw the attention of the faithful to the extraordinary importance of the coming elections and to the moral responsibility which follows from it for those who have the right to vote. In the present circuмstances it is strictly obligatory for whoever has the right, man or woman, to take part in the elections. He who abstains, particularly through indolence or cowardice, commits thereby a grave sin, a mortal offense. [12]

In the face of such exhortations and commands by the Vicar of Christ on the obligation of voting it seems particularly fitting at this time to single out the moral obligation devolving upon all citizens who possess the right to vote. It seems fitting for another reason as well, viz., because a large portion of the eligible voters in the United States do not use their franchise through indifference, neglect, or a similar moral weakness." http://www.catholicapologetics.info/morality/general/voting.htm

Ladislaus · « **Reply #31 on:** July 03, 2020, 08:01:32 AM »

Quote from: Aristotl on July 03, 2020, 07:13:59 AM

Pope Leo XIII said you must always vote for the lesser of the two evils. Even when there are two Socialists the lesser of the two is preferable.

This is grave slander against Pope Leo XIII, and the false accusation creates grave scandal. Prove it or retract your statement.

AT BEST you can make the case that it's permitted based on double effect in certain concrete cases, but one is never required to do so.

https://sspx.ca/en/the-catholic-dilemma-in-voting

Quote

For example, it would be better to vote for one who only approves of abortion in cases of rape or incest rather than one who supports abortion in all cases. This consideration looks only at the act of voting itself and not at other factors such as scandal and encouragement of unworthy persons. With the secret ballot today these other factors are diminished. However, theologians agree that it is never obligatory to vote for these immoral persons.

XavierSem, you declared that Catholics have a moral obligation to vote for Trump, but you're disagreeing with the SSPX here, whom you slavishly support. Please explain.

Tradman · « **Reply #32 on:** July 03, 2020, 08:03:33 AM »

How ironic he landed this, but somehow changed his tune.

Quo vadis Domine · « **Reply #33 on:** July 03, 2020, 08:04:27 AM »

The only way I would *not* vote for President Trump would be if I were convinced, without a doubt, that he was part of the establishment. There are too many reasons why I believe that this isn’t the case, but the most obvious one is the fact that he would have to be either totally mad or completely evil to put himself and his family through nearly five years of unrelenting abuse when he could have lived the rest of his years in relative peace and in the lap of luxury. He is definitely not mad and there is little proof he is evil. I think his mistakes, like Gorsuch, come from an exaggerated self confidence, a willingness to trust Washington bureaucrats coupled with a naivety of how many people in government are malevolent sociopaths and psychopaths.

I don’t think Trump is in any way great, morally speaking, but, humanly speaking, God had a very good reason to put this man, with skin as thick as a bear’s, in this position at this time in history. He seems to be a huge thorn in the side of the establishment. Ask yourself, what purpose did he serve if he was part of the NWO? If Hillary won the election, it would have been game over, period. With her at the helm this pandemic hoax would have caused hope to be completely lost. Trump gives us a bit of hope. (of course this is speaking of the natural world, not supernaturally) Why would the conspirators allow us this hope when that would only strengthen us and stifle their malicious plans?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #34 on:** July 03, 2020, 08:07:43 AM »

Quote from: XavierSem on July 03, 2020, 07:55:56 AM

Voting is itself good.

Voting is in and of itself neutral. [I pass over the notion of whether unbridled Democratic government is a good.]

Voting for an evil candidate is evil.

Voting for a good candidate is good.

Voting has no intrinsic moral value independent of the formal object of the vote, i.e whom you vote for.

That's like saying that shooting a gun is "itself good". No, it's neutral. If I shoot the gun at an innocent person, it's an evil. If I shoot the gun at a terrorist trying to kill a bunch of people, that's a good.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #35 on:** July 03, 2020, 08:08:52 AM »

Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on July 03, 2020, 08:04:27 AM

The only way I would *not* vote for President Trump would be if I were convinced, without a doubt, that he was part of the establishment.

That's an entirely practical consideration. You're ignoring the actual Catholic (moral theological) question here.

Nishant Xavier · « **Reply #36 on:** July 03, 2020, 08:41:58 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Voting is in and of itself neutral.

Even if that were so, neutrality is sufficient for double effect to apply, as shown above: ""This set of criteria states that an action having foreseen harmful effects practically inseparable from the good effect is justifiable if the following are true:the nature of the act is itself good, or at least morally neutral;"

Second, you are missing the context here. Pope Pius XII said, "In the present circuмstances it is strictly obligatory for whoever has the right, man or woman, to take part in the elections. He who abstains, particularly through indolence or cowardice, commits thereby a grave sin, a mortal offense." That is very clear. Voting is a serious responsibility which it is a mortal sin to omit doing without at least a sufficiently serious reason.

And if you agree it is permissible to vote for Trump, that's a start. As for why it is not only permissible but even obligatory, it is the special circuмstance that makes (1) RvW being overturned very likely with one more SC Justice (2) One more SCJ likely next term.

Here are other excerpts from that SSPX article you quoted: https://sspx.ca/en/the-catholic-dilemma-in-voting
"Why is it important to vote?
Our moral obligation to vote rests on two principles: (1) The fact that man is naturally a social or civil animal and therefore the state is a necessary society and (2) The idea that every person or citizen in society is bound to promote the common good. In our modern democratic forms of government today it is the citizens who select their rulers, judges and other officials. Since the decisions of these individuals greatly affects the lives of the citizens, it is of the utmost importance that the citizens select suitable officials who will promote the common good not only in temporal affairs but in spiritual matters also ...
The Priority of the Moral Laws
Nevertheless, even with our flawed political system, Catholics should not stop trying to use it to promote the Church’s social teaching and in particular the Social Kingship of Our Lord Jesus Christ. All our political involvement and voting should be motivated by the higher supernatural principles – the laws of God and the rights of the Church. For Catholics, the moral issues take precedence over any other issues. For example, safeguarding the rights of the unborn is far more important than reducing unemployment even though the latter is important for a healthy economy. When it comes to electing candidates who are Catholic and who promote the teachings of the Church, we have a strict moral obligation under pain of mortal sin to vote for these people. Pius XII states this grave moral obligation in one of his discourses in 1946 to the Pastors of Rome:

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The exercise of the right to vote is an act of grave responsibility, at least when there is the question involved of electing those whose office it will be to give the country its constitutions and its laws, particularly those which effect, for example, the sanctification of feast days, marriage, family life and school, the various phases of social life. It therefore falls to the Church to explain to the faithful their moral duties which derive from their right to vote.” 2

...
We need to keep working for the Reign of Christ the King
When we look at the political landscape today, one can be tempted to despair. What can we do to stop this decline in civil society? We should not forget that God is the creator and true ruler of the world and that he will hold us responsible for our stewardship. We need to recognize that our decisions to elect good rulers and lawmakers are crucial for the welfare of our nations and the salvation of many souls. We need to do all in our power to elect faithful Catholic leaders and organize Catholic parties who will promote the Social Kingship of Christ. If all the Catholics in the world practiced their faith and the hierarchy did their duties as true shepherds, we would not see unworthy candidates elected and these moral evils would disappear. Our Lord told us that when the salt loses its flavor the meat corrupts. Likewise as the Catholic Church deteriorates through this Apostasy, so does the world and souls. Each of us can make a big difference in society through our prayers and works. We should also not forget the power of the electoral system and our vote to help us defend the Church and so achieve our final end. May Our Lady of Fatima end this crisis of faith in the Church and bring to the world true peace through the victory of her Immaculate Heart.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #37 on:** July 03, 2020, 09:01:15 AM »

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In either case, any notion that the current battle with the forces of antichrist can be engaged in effectively, and defeated, by such poisoned conservativism is pure fantasy.

This is irrelevant because America isn’t a catholic country, thus we/she can never be pro-Catholic and anti-evil in the way we want. So, you’ve setup a utopian scenario that will never be fulfilled. An unreachable goal. Hence your perfect (catholic ideals in a non-catholic country) is the enemy of the good (support of the natural law, as best as can be, as well as 100s of other practical goods).
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Even if one argues that condoning of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity is evil akin to funding the abortion industry (which it’s not), the practical reasons to vote for Trump are innumerable. If you get “lost in the weeds” of Catholic idealism, and don’t think practical reasons matter, you are acting like a stoic or a Pelagian, who elevates the spiritual to an extreme degree and falsely says the temporal doesn’t matter.
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If you think the temporal doesn’t affect the Church, or society or your family or your salvation, you’re dead wrong. If a commie is elected and shuts down churches, is God pleased? Does it make your salvation easier or harder? History shows that highly stressful and catastrophic events can cause many people to lose their Faith. Does this not affect all areas of the Church as well? Of course. Vote anti-communist in principle. If that means voting for Trump, so be it. Ideals have to be thrown out the window in the middle of a war, replaced by prudence and practicality. And we’re smack dab in the middle of a war for our country and western civilization.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #38 on:** July 03, 2020, 09:05:44 AM »

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Voting is in and of itself neutral.

No, it’s a moral obligation in certain times when the Church is threatened with closures and the natural law is under siege.
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I’m peaceful times, It’s definitely a civic duty which is also a moral duty (venial sin), but not to the same degree as a moral obligation (mortal sin).

Argentino · « **Reply #39 on:** July 03, 2020, 10:14:28 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on July 03, 2020, 07:12:43 AM

Based on this, well laid out, I fail to see how a Catholic can vote for Trump. As you point out here, since Trump is pro-contraception and pro-surgical abortion, pro-ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ, and pro-divorce, by voting for this man we would become formal accomplices in whatever evil he perpetrates along these lines, since our vote is putting him into power.

So, for instance, by having voted for Trump last time, knowing he was gαy-friendly, we have become formal accomplices in the latest pro-LBGT ruling lead by Trump-appointee Gorsuch.

As I reflect on this, I have come to the conclusion that it would be a grave sin for a Catholic to vote for Trump.

Double-effect stipulates that the action cannot be intrinsically sinful/evil. I find that it is intrinsically sinful/evil to vote for a candidate who stands for the things outlined above. Consequently, voting for Trump would be sinful.

As BTNYC illustrated so well, we need to avoid the temptation of being relativistic (another corollary to lesser evil thinking).

There was a TV show I watched years ago where a terrorist demanded that a government agent execute an innocent man (who may have posed a threat to their operation) or otherwise he was going to unleash a bioweapon that would kill hundreds of thousands. So the agent did it (with great anguish). But for a Catholic, the choice is simple. I cannot do this evil, even to prevent a much greater evil. We do not do the evil, and we leave it in God's Hands to deal with the outcomes. This is no different than saying that I'll vote for Trump because he'll appoint a Supreme Court Justice who will be less friendly to abortion.

Trump is a positively evil candidate and therefore we cannot vote for him in good conscience. Thanks for helping me make up my mind about voting. I had entertained the possibility of voting Trump on the basis of double effect, but I see clearly now that it does not apply here.

I will vote and will be writing in Patrick Buchanan for President.

I had had gone around promoting a candidate like Trump in the 1950s, you'd probably get excommunicated. But it's OK now since the other guy is worse?

Apparently, you didn't read my posting before Nadir. I said the same, that Trump having on his platform a desire to have abortion sometimes, is an evil thus making me unable to vote for him.
I think you saw "lesser evil" in my post and decided not to read it all.
But "lesser evil" is a concept included in that of "double-effect".

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #40 on:** July 03, 2020, 11:11:52 AM »

Catholic principles are spiritual rules applied to temporal circuмstances. It is Divine Law (higher than moral law) that we must attend mass on Sundays, yet...even God, through Holy Mother Church allows exceptions for TEMPORAL things like sickness, travel, etc. This is because God is not a dictator who requires adherence to His laws when there is sufficient hardship.
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It’s a mortal sin to eat meat on Good Friday. If you were starving, would you avoid eating a hot dog because of “Catholic principles”? You’d be wrong. The catholic principle of prudence to stay alive outranks the “letter of the law” to avoid meat. Further, one could argue that NOT to eat the meat, and to starve, would be a sin. Because God is a loving God, not a God of extremes.
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So it is with voting for the lesser of two evils. Yes, it is wrong (when viewed in isolation)
to vote for a pro-homo candidate A (Trump) but it’s not wrong when a TEMPORAL situation exists where the opponent (Biden and friends) is an outright commie, God-hating, Church-persecuting atheist.
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Catholic principles are not applied in a vacuum. Real life sometimes (but not always) dictates exceptions. Extreme circuмstances can (and sometimes they must) force us to take actions which would, in normal times, be unacceptable. The letter of the law kills (blind adherence to rules; extreme idealism). The spirit of the law gives life (wise and prudent application of moral theology and church law).

Argentino · « **Reply #41 on:** July 03, 2020, 11:22:32 AM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 03, 2020, 11:11:52 AM

Catholic principles are spiritual rules applied to temporal circuмstances. It is Divine Law (higher than moral law) that we must attend mass on Sundays, yet...even God, through Holy Mother Church allows exceptions for TEMPORAL things like sickness, travel, etc. This is because God is not a dictator who requires adherence to His laws when there is sufficient hardship.
.
It’s a mortal sin to eat meat on Good Friday. If you were starving, would you avoid eating a hot dog because of “Catholic principles”? You’d be wrong. The catholic principle of prudence to stay alive outranks the “letter of the law” to avoid meat. Further, one could argue that NOT to eat the meat, and to starve, would be a sin. Because God is a loving God, not a God of extremes.
.
So it is with voting for the lesser of two evils. Yes, it is wrong (when viewed in isolation)
to vote for a pro-homo candidate A (Trump) but it’s not wrong when a TEMPORAL situation exists where the opponent (Biden and friends) is an outright commie, God-hating, Church-persecuting atheist.
.
Catholic principles are not applied in a vacuum. Real life sometimes (but not always) dictates exceptions. Extreme circuмstances can (and sometimes they must) force us to take actions which would, in normal times, be unacceptable. The letter of the law kills (blind adherence to rules; extreme idealism). The spirit of the law gives life (wise and prudent application of moral theology and church law).

It's not divine law that we attend Church on Sundays. It is human law that chooses the particular day. The Divine law is that we must periodically worship God in common.
Eating meat on Good Friday is also human law, based loosely on the divine law that we must periodically do penance. The Church chose the day.

If you can't explain the difference between divine and human law, and how canon law is consider human law, then you are hardly qualified to talk on this subject.
So, you started with an incorrect premise.
Directly choosing someone for office that includes on his platform to promote a system of immorality is intrinsically evil and there is no exception.
If Trump had on his platform to kill everyone over 80 years old, it's really the same as promoting abortion for cases of rape, incest and threat to a mother's life by the baby.

Ballistol · « **Reply #42 on:** July 03, 2020, 11:55:14 AM »

I'm sitting out the election. Trump has proven himself to be against the American people, the Rule of Law (he never pursued Hillary, et al, to be brought to justice), and the Social Reign of Christ. Trump's top officials and advisors are Jew Trotskyites who wear the "Republican" label. The Republican party has a long history of Trotskyism.

"By their fruits you will know them"

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #43 on:** July 03, 2020, 12:05:04 PM »

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The Divine law is that we must periodically worship God in common.

Ever hear of Moses and the 10
Commandments? We must worship God each week, on the Lord’s Day, which THE LORD (not the church) changed from Saturday’s to Sunday’s when He sent the Holy Ghost on Pentecost.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #44 on:** July 03, 2020, 12:06:32 PM »

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I'm sitting out the election.

But the consequences of said election will still affect you. “Sitting out” is an ignoring of reality.

Author Topic: Sitting out the election? (Read 7250 times)

Nishant Xavier

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Ladislaus

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Tradman

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Quo vadis Domine

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Ladislaus

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Ladislaus

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Nishant Xavier

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Pax Vobis

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Pax Vobis

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Argentino

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Pax Vobis

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Argentino

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Ballistol

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Pax Vobis

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Pax Vobis

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