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Author Topic: Sister Wilhelmina  (Read 1472 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Sister Wilhelmina
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2023, 01:32:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on June 10, 2023, 08:36:46 AM
    I did read part of Dr. Drolesky's article. He said at one point that Sr. Wilhelmina had sanctity (or words to that effect), despite not having any actual sacraments available to her. Is that even possible? 

    Of course it is.  God can supply many of the graces of the Sacraments outside actual reception of the Sacrament.  Even if the Novus Ordo Mass is invalid, God can provide an increase in sanctifying grace that would be the equivalent of what would have been received during an actual Holy Communion for those who are properly disposed.  Perfect contrition combined with the intention to confess one's sins can restore someone to a state of justification.  Sister was validly baptized and validly confirmed, long before Vatican II.  These are two that cannot be supplied outside the Sacrament, since they confer a character.  But the increase of sanctifying grace from Holy Communion and restoration to justification through perfect contrition and the intention to confess can certainly be supplied.  We don't know for sure whether Sister ever committed a mortal sin and required being restored to justification ... especially later in life when she lacked access to the Traditional Sacraments.  And whose to know whether or not some of the priests who offered Mass there may or may not have been validly ordained.  There are many SSXP refugees working with FSSP who were validly ordained.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sister Wilhelmina
    « Reply #16 on: June 10, 2023, 01:36:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on June 10, 2023, 01:29:38 PM
    .

    Interesting point. If we're claiming she's a saint or on that level of sanctity, I have my doubts too. This quote is problematic for me as well:


    While I understand that she is denouncing some modernist, I can't imagine the Little Flower talking like this, either. Frankly, I couldn't imagine any traditional Catholic priest or nun of my acquaintance talking like this either.

    Oh, I don't know.  Just envision a Black woman saying it, and it could be rather humorous.  If that's the worst fault she ever committed in her life, then I'm certain that she went to Heaven immediately after death without any time in Purgatory.
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    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Sister Wilhelmina
    « Reply #17 on: June 10, 2023, 01:46:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on June 10, 2023, 07:52:08 AM
    In the article Wilhelmina is related to have said she wanted to write a novel like Little Women, which was a revolutionary feminist work by a transcendentalist heretic.

    Certainly there are many aspects that seem miraculous but I'm wary of being duped by the Novus Ordites.

    There are lots of unsavory red flags, but, like you say, this does not rule out a Divine suspension of the laws of nature. 

    I am of the ever more firm opinion that this is not about Sister, per se. If it is a Divine manifestation, then it is a sign, not of one woman's sanctity, but relating to where we are on the timeline. And as such, I look for more signs to come.

    I expect more signs, if this is indeed a "sign of the times." 

    It is possible that this is a herald that the 5th Age is finally coming to its miserable end. 

    Secondly, Drolesky makes some good points about the spectrum (read:journey) participated by every soul. Many of us started out in the novus ordo and worked our way radical. If I were run over by a car while still in the novus ordo, I might still have saved my soul, because my soul was indeed on fire even then.

    The point is that I have no problem believing this woman saved her soul. I do have a serious problem, however, in believing that God is trying to get our attention so that we may look at this particular Catholic life. No, no, no! We are to look for Him in this thing! We are not to allow ourselves to be distracted by looking too closely at her, except inasmuch as the facts of her case point to more universal realities about Faith and the Church. 
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Sister Wilhelmina
    « Reply #18 on: June 10, 2023, 02:41:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: Gunter on June 10, 2023, 01:22:07 PM
    Boy are you way off.  No because the novus ordo is a mockery of Catholicism.  The Sister may be a diamond in the ruff.  It would be her attachment to Christ which has overcome the confused modern religion.

    Even protestants have an attachment to Christ. Was Sr. Wilhelmina really any different from protestants, when considering the view of those sedevacantists who believe that there are no valid sacraments in the conciliar church? How would she be any different from a protestant, using this sedevacantist criteria? 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sister Wilhelmina
    « Reply #19 on: June 10, 2023, 03:33:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on June 10, 2023, 02:41:19 PM
    Even protestants have an attachment to Christ. Was Sr. Wilhelmina really any different from protestants, when considering the view of those sedevacantists who believe that there are no valid sacraments in the conciliar church? How would she be any different from a protestant, using this sedevacantist criteria?

    :facepalm:  So having the Catholic faith doesn't make her different from Protestants ... simply because she lacked consistent/steady access to valid Sacraments?

    You create all these ridiculous strawmen of sedevacantism.
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Sister Wilhelmina
    « Reply #20 on: June 10, 2023, 04:00:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on June 10, 2023, 02:41:19 PM
    Even protestants have an attachment to Christ. Was Sr. Wilhelmina really any different from protestants, when considering the view of those sedevacantists who believe that there are no valid sacraments in the conciliar church? How would she be any different from a protestant, using this sedevacantist criteria?
    Oh, for goodness sake, Meg. GROW UP!
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Sister Wilhelmina
    « Reply #21 on: June 10, 2023, 04:25:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on June 10, 2023, 08:36:46 AM
    For the sedevacantists, like Drolesky, wouldn't Sr. Wilhelmina be a non-Catholic, since she may have been baptized in the new rite? Or maybe she was baptized in the old rite.
    Sr Wilhelmina was baptised as an infant in 1924. How could she have been baptised in the new rite when it is post-conciliar and so did not exist in 1924?
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    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Sister Wilhelmina
    « Reply #22 on: June 10, 2023, 06:00:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 10, 2023, 03:33:30 PM
    :facepalm:  So having the Catholic faith doesn't make her different from Protestants ... simply because she lacked consistent/steady access to valid Sacraments?

    You create all these ridiculous strawmen of sedevacantism.

    According to Mr. Droleskey, she had no access to any sacraments. Do you concur with that assessment?

    And yes, I have to put forth these arguments, as ridiculous as they might seem. Most of the non-sedevacantists here will cower in fear of the sedevacantists. Not surprisingly, I have no intention of doing that. 

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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sister Wilhelmina
    « Reply #23 on: June 10, 2023, 06:53:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on June 10, 2023, 06:00:12 PM
    According to Mr. Droleskey, she had no access to any sacraments. Do you concur with that assessment?

    He did not say that, since he himself pointed out that Father Devillers (SSPX-ordained priest, and certainly valid) offered her funeral Mass, and I'm sure there were other FSSP priests (who were valid priests) who came in there from time to time to offer Mass, hear Confessions, etc.  Nevertheless, it's likely that for the most part she did not have valid Sacraments.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sister Wilhelmina
    « Reply #24 on: June 10, 2023, 06:56:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on June 10, 2023, 06:00:12 PM
    According to Mr. Droleskey, she had no access to any sacraments. Do you concur with that assessment?

    And yes, I have to put forth these arguments, as ridiculous as they might seem. Most of the non-sedevacantists here will cower in fear of the sedevacantists. Not surprisingly, I have no intention of doing that.

    What I have problems with is your assertion that not having access to the Sacraments makes someone no different than a Protestant (according to SVs).  You're making up these ridiculous strawman positions that no Sedevacantist holds.  Some dogmatic types do hold that mere belong to the Conciliar Church puts someone outside the Catholic Church, but that's an absurd opinion that few hold ... and it has nothing to do with whether one has been receiving valid Sacraments.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Sister Wilhelmina
    « Reply #25 on: June 11, 2023, 01:19:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 10, 2023, 06:53:44 PM
    He did not say that, since he himself pointed out that Father Devillers (SSPX-ordained priest, and certainly valid) offered her funeral Mass, and I'm sure there were other FSSP priests (who were valid priests) who came in there from time to time to offer Mass, hear Confessions, etc.  Nevertheless, it's likely that for the most part she did not have valid Sacraments.

    Okay, but wouldn't you say that unless a FSSP priest was ordained by a valid bishop, it has to be assumed that any sacraments given to her by an FSSP priest were doubtful or invalid. Wouldn't that be right? Don't you count all sacraments in the conciliar church, at the very least, as doubtful? This isn't what I believe. I'm only repeating what sedevacantists have posited here. Although most of the sedes here seem to believe that all sacraments tied to the conciliar church are invalid. So just because you may be a little more tolerant doesn't mean that other sedevacantists are. You don't speak for all of them.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sister Wilhelmina
    « Reply #26 on: June 11, 2023, 04:59:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on June 11, 2023, 01:19:12 PM
    Okay, but wouldn't you say that unless a FSSP priest was ordained by a valid bishop, it has to be assumed that any sacraments given to her by an FSSP priest were doubtful or invalid. Wouldn't that be right? Don't you count all sacraments in the conciliar church, at the very least, as doubtful? This isn't what I believe. I'm only repeating what sedevacantists have posited here. Although most of the sedes here seem to believe that all sacraments tied to the conciliar church are invalid. So just because you may be a little more tolerant doesn't mean that other sedevacantists are. You don't speak for all of them.

    Nobody believes that the Sacraments are invalid simply because they're in or connected to the Conciliar Church.  It has to do with the Rite a priest or his bishop were ordained/consecreated in.  Not only SVs, but even some R&R, hold the New Rite of Episcopal Consecration to be doubtful, and the Rite of Priestly Ordination also.  To claim that Sacraments are invalid simply because they're confected outside the Catholic Church would in fact be heretical (it's been condemned as such by the Church), and no one holds that.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Sister Wilhelmina
    « Reply #27 on: June 11, 2023, 06:54:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 11, 2023, 04:59:08 PM
    Nobody believes that the Sacraments are invalid simply because they're in or connected to the Conciliar Church.  It has to do with the Rite a priest or his bishop were ordained/consecreated in.  Not only SVs, but even some R&R, hold the New Rite of Episcopal Consecration to be doubtful, and the Rite of Priestly Ordination also.  To claim that Sacraments are invalid simply because they're confected outside the Catholic Church would in fact be heretical (it's been condemned as such by the Church), and no one holds that.

    True, more and more R&R are holding that the new rite of ordination and consecrations are not only doubtful but invalid. And pretty much all other conciliar church sacraments as well. That is primarily due to the sedevacantist influence. IMO.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29
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